OMG it's a tier list

[Junkhead]

Suppose we added a unit to this game called "Wayu", that had the exact same stats as Mia, came with a free locked Adept skill, and was mutually exclusive with Mia in deployment/usage. Would Wayu be in the same tier position as Mia is currently? The answer to the question is "no", she'd be ranked higher. Why? Because Wayu's army has an extra Adept kicking around to give to someone else.

High tier is stuffed full of units that are happy to dominate the game for you, if you wouldn't mind just sharing some of your Chuck Norris Granola bars. When I look at Top tier, I see units that are dominant without any additional assembly required.

I laughed until I stopped.

Damn, Makalol. Quit trolling, Vincent. ;A;

Edited May 6, 2011 by Soul

[Anouleth]

Suppose we added a unit to this game called "Wayu", that had the exact same stats as Mia, came with a free locked Adept skill, and was mutually exclusive with Mia in deployment/usage. Would Wayu be in the same tier position as Mia is currently? The answer to the question is "no", she'd be ranked higher. Why? Because Wayu's army has an extra Adept kicking around to give to someone else.

The purpose of this thought experiment is to remind you that while it's reasonable to consider a unit with resource X if they are the very best place for it, it's important to remember that there is still a cost to give it to them.

High tier is stuffed full of units that are happy to dominate the game for you, if you wouldn't mind just sharing some of your Chuck Norris Granola bars. When I look at Top tier, I see units that are dominant without any additional assembly required.

I am familiar with the basics of cost-benefit analyses, Int, there is no need to make colourful analogies as if I'm smashfanatic. However, just because a unit takes any cost does not necessarily exclude them from Top Tier, providing that their benefit is good enough. Certainly, Mia (T) is going to need resources such as BEXP, Adept, and in time, a Master Crown.

Sothe isn't a resource hog, he's someone who comes blasting at full speed right out of the gate, and then gets gassed before the game is over. I have a problem putting someone like Sothe, who is only situationally and temporarily dominant, alongside the likes of Ike and Haar, who both singlehandedly take this entire game and snap it in half over their knees.

Certainly, Sothe is only situationally dominant, but only if you are willing to characterise the entirety of Part 1 and a good portion of Part 3 as a 'situation'. In addition, it's questionable if Ike really trivialises the game as you suggest. He's nothing to write home about in many sections of Part 3 which emphasise movement or 1-2 range. Certainly, he's a terror in the earlist Part 3 chapters and all of Part 4, but frequently in the middle of Part 3, he will find himself falling behind, such as in 3-3, 3-4, and 3-11, or incapable of competing with the 1-2 range of other combatants, such as in 3-8 and 3-10.

I laughed until I stopped.

Damn, Makalol. Quit trolling, Vincent. ;A;

I wish I had Makalov.

huh, what am I saying, I have Sothe now. This is much more fitting.

Edited May 6, 2011 by Black★Star

[dondon151]

None of which are as consequential as flight. We can increase someone's movement range with Celerity, give them stat boosters to double or to reach OHKO/ORKO range, set up a shove/rescue chain, early crown, BEXP abuse, etc. We cannot give someone the ability to fly.

I am actually fairly sure that none of those are even imperfect substitutes. We can increase someone's movement range with Celerity, or we can increase Titania's movement range even more. Point: Titania. We don't generally have enough stat boosters to give to units to have them reach OHKO/ORKO range because Titania is actually that much better than the other units. We won't even have enough BEXP for a few maps to BEXP abuse to any appreciable extent, and we don't get to make use of a Master Crown until 3-4. And finally, the opportunity costs for any of those is greater than that of giving Titania a Speedwings.

Haar is your only option for this job for a large portion of Part 3, and remains a superior choice even when he starts running into competition. The implications for efficient completion with a unit such as Haar, are manifest. He is worthy of Top tier even in an absurd scenario where resources are split evenly between all units, regardless of efficiency.

First, I maintained that there would remain a tier gap between Haar and Titania by punting the former into Easy Mode tier. Second, Titania would probably also be worthy of top tier even in your absurd scenario. I think I showed very convincingly in my 0% growths playthrough that Titania doesn't need a Speedwings to dominate in the game, and this isn't even in comparison to other units (obviously, since it's not hard to beat other units in 0% growths); she destroyed part 3 handily and even did not do all that poorly in part 4.

Your cringe-worthy attempt at mockery aside, this sounds like an argument that ought to be taken over to another tier list, such as one where units are ranked solely according to how they contribute to the best team's completion of the game in the shortest amount of turns that the reset button reasonably lets you get away with.

So, remind me again why he's still above units like Boyd (T)?

High tier is stuffed full of units that are happy to dominate the game for you, if you wouldn't mind just sharing some of your Chuck Norris Granola bars. When I look at Top tier, I see units that are dominant without any additional assembly required.

I agree. Titania comes to mind.

Edited May 6, 2011 by dondon151

[Interceptor]

[...] just because a unit takes any cost does not necessarily exclude them from Top Tier, providing that their benefit is good enough.

Tier breaks are intended to mark clear differences between groups of units, and I personally consider the resource angle to be enough to draw a bright line between Top and High for certain units. Like Titania.

Certainly, Sothe is only situationally dominant, but only if you are willing to characterise the entirety of Part 1 and a good portion of Part 3 as a 'situation'.

No, you also have to acknowledge that getting stomped by laguz during the Jill and Nolan Show, flinging butterknives down a ledge, being on the same planet as BK and Nailah, etc, calls into question the "dominance" label. Not only is a "good portion of Part 3" dubious, but so is the "entirety of Part 1".

In addition, it's questionable if Ike really trivialises the game as you suggest. He's nothing to write home about in many sections of Part 3 which emphasise movement or 1-2 range. Certainly, he's a terror in the earlist Part 3 chapters and all of Part 4, but frequently in the middle of Part 3, he will find himself falling behind, such as in 3-3, 3-4, and 3-11, or incapable of competing with the 1-2 range of other combatants, such as in 3-8 and 3-10.

I disagree, Ike is a monster. He's not a perfect unit by any means, but nobody is. His durability and offense are outstanding. To the extent that he "falls behind", before he catches right back up again (thanks Ragnell and promotion), the gap is nowhere near what we're looking at for a unit as such, say, Sothe.

I am actually fairly sure that none of those are even imperfect substitutes.

Of course you are; it's devastating to your case.

Your playthrough, with its chorus of kindergarteners and hobbled growth units, perverse resource distribution incentives, and an end goal wholly different from this tier list's ranking criteria, doesn't say for this issue what you seem to think it does. I've always thought that the absurdities involved in planning around a base-stat Lord, no-chance low-level units, RNG abuse, and stressing low turn counts over efficiency would have an obvious effect on the comparisons that one could reasonably draw for the tier list, but you're so stubbornly ignoring the implications that I don't think I could change your mind if I had a hundred years to do it.

When you have a reasonable scenario, such as one where you don't spend the entire game shooting yourself in the foot, Titania starts looking like a mere mortal compared to her companions.

So, remind me again why he's still above units like Boyd (T)?

In order for me to "remind" you of something "again", I'd need to have told you in the first place.

Now normally I wouldn't do this, but I'm feeling charitable today, and will attempt to answer this head-scratching puzzle for you: he's probably above Boyd (T), because either nobody has made the argument for it, or it hasn't been addressed yet. You're welcome. Run along.

I agree. Titania comes to mind.

For High tier, certainly. Give her some stat boosters, careful BEXP, a timely promotion, forges where necessary, and she'll lay waste to her fair share of the game, all the way up to the ending credits.

[incognit0]

High tier, certainly. Give her some stat boosters, careful BEXP, a timely promotion, forges where necessary, and she'll lay waste to her fair share of the game, all the way up to the ending credits.

Aside from the comment on stat boosters, I could have sworn you were talking about Mia (T). Only she has 7 move.... and has crappy 2-range... and, while lacking the opportunity cost of a Speedwings, has the cost of an Ike support...

[dondon151]

Of course you are; it's devastating to your case.

No, I think it is because it's a fact.

Your playthrough, with its chorus of kindergarteners and hobbled growth units, perverse resource distribution incentives, and an end goal wholly different from this tier list's ranking criteria, doesn't say for this issue what you seem to think it does.

Of course it does. Titania trivialized most of the game without growths. Now just imagine if she had growths and a Speedwings. Should I direct you back to your stated scenario of "where resources are split evenly between all units, regardless of efficiency?" I just qualified that Titania fit the definition for a top tier unit under your scenario because she trivialized most of the game with nearly no resources. I specifically stated that I was not comparing her performance to that of other units in the 0% playthrough for obvious reasons.

I've always thought that the absurdities involved in planning around a base-stat Lord, no-chance low-level units, RNG abuse, and stressing low turn counts over efficiency would have an obvious effect on the comparisons that one could reasonably draw for the tier list, but you're so stubbornly ignoring the implications that I don't think I could change your mind if I had a hundred years to do it.

I'm sorry, but you grossly misrepresent my playthrough by implying that there's a significant amount of RNG abuse involved. There isn't. As amusing as it is for Mekkah to consistently liken me to Vykan, the fact of the matter is that it's just not true (specifically in the case of RD), and it annoys me to no end when people pull this card as if it were particularly damaging to my argument. Try a different argument.

Also, "low turn counts over efficiency?" I honestly have no idea what you mean by efficiency.

When you have a reasonable scenario, such as one where you don't spend the entire game shooting yourself in the foot, Titania starts looking like a mere mortal compared to her companions.

Titania is still a goddess in this "reasonable scenario" of yours. If you mean to imply that Titania isn't as good as Haar, tell me something I don't know. There would still be a tier gap between Easy Mode tier Haar and top tier Titania.

Edited May 7, 2011 by dondon151

[Junkhead]

I do hope my votes aren't redundant.

-Titania to Top. She's pretty much Haar without flight and slightly worse durability. Flight is awesome, of course, but there are plenty of maps where it either doesn't matter or isn't that effective anyway.

I agree with this. Titania's offense only gets topped by Haar. And her durability "issues" are fixed with an Angelic Robe and a Dracoshield that are unlikely to be taken, unless you have Boyd (T) in your team. But that's not all there is to it. Titania is a great help, acting out as a Haar 2.0, with great movement and offense. Then there's the fact she can actually promote without the need of a Crown, which would allow someone else to take it (Hello Haar).

-Sothe to Top. He may be the next most disputed character on this list after Mia, but I think we have enough knowledge to say he's quite comparable to Volug. I also find his part 3 to not be as bad as some make it out to be.

He saves an inmense number of turns in Part 1. I see him getting to Top.

-Hawks > Gatrie (T)

Mhmm.

-Boyd (T) > Nephenee. He has a much easier time doubling and a doubling Boyd clearly beats Nephenee.

http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/32359/t1617038-character-ratings-part-deux/18.htm#258

-Tormod > Calill/Soren. His impact on part 1 is more than they'll ever accomplish.

Unfortunately. I agree. Tormod can handle the LHS at 1-8 and has a long-ranged door key.

-In a similar vein to the Royals, how much do the non-Kurthnaga Dragons impact Endgame? I can honestly see them, Nasir specifically, contributing more than at least the likes of Caineghis and Giffca.

Like someone else said earlier, Nasir only saves you a turn if you already have a Heron.

-Renning? How does he compare to the likes of Stefan and Volke, who are currently a tier up on him?

I think dondon pretty much proved that Renning is better, considering he can actually be useful Endgame. A useful filler. He can 1RKO Cover Generals with a Hammer, and 1RKO's the little balls with a Brave axe.

-Lehran > Kurthnaga. As far as I can tell, Kurthnaga is pretty much doomed to contribute nothing unless you brought paper and glass into Endgame. At least Lehran can chip Auras and use the Ashera Staff. He can probably go above Bastian, too, maybe Sanaki.

-That said, Kurthnaga should probably just drop to Bottom. Can anyone make a legitimate case for him > Oliver? A tier's worth?

@Bold: Yes.

Kurthnaga should indeed go to Bottom...for all he can('t) do.

[RNG Princess]

Sothe has too many flaws to be top tier he should stay in high.

[Junkhead]

It's kinda hard to judge, in my opinion. You got his excellent Part 1. Where he is just a key to low-turns. Then his Part 3, that is only somewhat decent at 3-6, where he still relies on a Micaiah support and Resolve to take a hit and keep killing.

[Florete]

I don't know why people think 3-6 is such an issue for Sothe. First off, his avoid aided by Micaiah support, while not exactly reliable for dodge tanking, is helpful as he'll probably be dodging something like 50% of the enemy attacks (but that's just an estimate). Furthermore, only Tigers and some stronger Cats are really a threat. There are some very weak Cats on the map, so it's not like he's getting 2HKOd by everything. And then, Laguz can only move 1 space in the swamp while Sothe can see further than that. If a connection isn't made there, try again. And then you factor in the times where he'll kill an untransformed Laguz on player phase for absolutely no threat. Honestly, it takes a stupid player to get Sothe killed.

Yes, Interceptor, I know the likes of Nolan, Jill, and Volug are better here because of blah blah blah. I don't care. The point is that 3-6 is not quite as problematic for Sothe as people make it out to be.

But Sothe is the most hated character in the series so it's really no surprise.

[grandjackal]

Now normally I wouldn't do this, but I'm feeling charitable today, and will attempt to answer this head-scratching puzzle for you: he's probably above Boyd (T), because either nobody has made the argument for it, or it hasn't been addressed yet.

Well, let's ignore the fact that we could end all this Gatrie shenanigans by simply asking "What does he contribute over dudes like Keiran, or perhaps even Tormod?", and just do a straight comparison. Let's start with just mentioning the fact that Boyd starts right in the front of the team, while Gatrie is in the back, and is actually a full turn away from the action while Boyd is free to get right in there. Lets him chip for the likes of Ti and Oscar for when the likes of Ti doesn't just outright kill things for herself as it is. Specifically, he does about 21 damage to halbs (leaving with 15 HP, which base non-transfer Oscar can manage with a Steel Greatlance), 27 to sages, and outside of using his Killer Axe on generals and with the times he can manage to use his Bonds to his advantage, can do 16 damage to generals, which is probably the unimpressive part of his performance. I should ust end the comparison there. T Boyd's might lets him help the likes of even non-transfer Oscar avoid counters from common enemies, allowing them to go deeper into the action unscathed, wheras Gatrie is simply trying to catch up.

3-1, Gatrie basically gets the southern generals, Boyd helps as he has in P-1 elsewhere on the map.

3-2 is basically done in what, 1 or 2 turns? We can pretty much shrug this off.

3-3 I believe is when dondon would recall something about Provoke-Gatrie being "integral" or something, but then it wouldn't really make much sense about why he'd be arguing Gatrie to drop below Boyd unless he re-thought that particular point.

3-4, Gatrie'snot doing shit on this gigantic map. Then again, I dunno what Boyd'sdoing either, aside from helping on the left hand path as he can, which I'm sure still beats whatever Gatrie's attempting to do.

3-5 is another map I believe that's ended in a minimum amount of turns cause Lombrosso's a noob.

Then the hawks show up, and there stops being a reason in using the two unless we decided that giving Boyd a wing's a smart idea.

Looking at it myself though, I would assume that both these guys need to drop. Gatrie just can't work past his shitty move and how early performance short-sticks him with horrid starting positions, and Boyd can't get over the fact that his base speed is disappointingly mediocre even after transfers.

[Florete]

Looking at it myself though, I would assume that both these guys need to drop. Gatrie just can't work past his shitty move and how early performance short-sticks him with horrid starting positions, and Boyd can't get over the fact that his base speed is disappointingly mediocre even after transfers.

Eh? We're talking 20 base Spd at level 8 with 45% growth. Sure it isn't Mia or Ike (T) level, but a Speedwing turns that thing into an offensive monster. He's even got a nice 27 tier 2 Spd cap in case Ashera decides to bless his Spd a bit + BEXP when HP, Str, and Skl cap (though Skl doesn't necessarily need to cap for him to get Spd).

[grandjackal]

Eh? We're talking 20 base Spd at level 8 with 45% growth.

Yeah, mediocre. Are we just gonna act like that isn't mediocre? Because by the time the first speedwing comes in, 24 AS starts becoming the norm to double most things. he'll need 4-5 levels in that time to have the speed on average. How you thinking he gets that many levels in that short amount of time when he doesn't have the base speed to be killing reliably by himself?

Sure it isn't Mia or Ike (T) level, but a Speedwing turns that thing into an offensive monster.

After about 4 or 5 levels, and the Speedwing is not free either.

He's even got a nice 27 tier 2 Spd cap in case Ashera decides to bless his Spd a bit + BEXP when HP, Str, and Skl cap (though Skl doesn't necessarily need to cap for him to get Spd).

Well, if you can justify how he gets the early levels and why he deserves a speedwing over others who may want it (Haar, etc), then perhaps I'll let it go. Until then, I will simply have to consider the points silly, and ask once more that both these folks drop down to at least below Tauroneo.

[Silith]

Listen, you. I used Tanith (T), who is a boss, and I only got her to level 20/4 at the start of 4-3. What chance does Tanith (N) have to to get to level 20/8, even if the tier player doesn't get quite as good turncounts as I did in 3-11 and 4-P?

I entirely didn't read this post before. Stupid nights and Americans posting then.

Listen, you. I used Tanith (N), who is a boss, and I got her to level 20/7 at the start of 4-3. I doubt you'll have had much better turn counts then 6-5-5 on chapters 3-11, 3-F and 4-P respectively. Maybe if you sniffed less Haaroine you'dd see that other characters are also viable and even turn out better then him.

Getting tired of these Haarboners.

[Anouleth]

Tier breaks are intended to mark clear differences between groups of units, and I personally consider the resource angle to be enough to draw a bright line between Top and High for certain units. Like Titania.

So because there's a resource that Titania can take to be Ike With 9 Move and Canto and Axes, and there is no resource that we can give to Ike for him to have the same performance, Titania is significantly worse than Ike in such a way to warrant a tier break?

No, you also have to acknowledge that getting stomped by laguz during the Jill and Nolan Show, flinging butterknives down a ledge, being on the same planet as BK and Nailah, etc, calls into question the "dominance" label. Not only is a "good portion of Part 3" dubious, but so is the "entirety of Part 1".

In 3-6, Sothe is not only providing Beastfoe, he is also capable of using Beastkiller. As a result, he is responsible for a great deal of offense on the team. He is part of the reason that Nolan and Volug are so good. And in of himself, he is good as well. Certainly, better than Jill until she reaches whatever ridiculous level you have in mind for her. 3-12 is bad for Sothe, that's true, but generally almost all the work is going to be done by 1 or 2 units on enemy phase anyway. 3-13 is also pretty bad, I guess. But it's not that bad when you consider that overall the only two people who are performing better than Sothe are the units you chose to sink all your resources into so they could tear through 3-12 and 3-13.

I disagree, Ike is a monster. He's not a perfect unit by any means, but nobody is. His durability and offense are outstanding. To the extent that he "falls behind", before he catches right back up again (thanks Ragnell and promotion), the gap is nowhere near what we're looking at for a unit as such, say, Sothe.

I didn't realise that Ragnell let him fly. Chances are he's spending most of 3-11 in someone's saddlebags, where Ragnell won't really do him much good. And the germane question is, how many chapters is Ike really your MVP in? 3-P, 3-1, 4-1, 4-4. Tell me if I've missed any.

I entirely didn't read this post before. Stupid nights and Americans posting then.

Listen, you. I used Tanith (N), who is a boss, and I got her to level 20/7 at the start of 4-3. I doubt you'll have had much better turn counts then 6-5-5 on chapters 3-11, 3-F and 4-P respectively. Maybe if you sniffed less Haaroine you'dd see that other characters are also viable and even turn out better then him.

Getting tired of these Haarboners.

Actually, I did have much better turn counts than that. 5/5/2, specifically. Nor do I understand how you got her even that with her bad speed (struggles to double Paladins, for instance), bad strength (can't 2HKO them either) and bad durability (gets 3HKOed back).

Nor am I really getting how Tanith (N) could ever turn out better than Haar. Even a 20/7 Tanith would only be matching Haar in speed and getting crushed in other areas, such as Strength, Defense, and Axe-Having.

The reason we all appear to have Haarboners is because Haar is just a ridiculously good character. He's good when he joins, he's good in Part 3, he's good in Part 4. All good, all the time.

Yeah, mediocre. Are we just gonna act like that isn't mediocre? Because by the time the first speedwing comes in, 24 AS starts becoming the norm to double most things. he'll need 4-5 levels in that time to have the speed on average. How you thinking he gets that many levels in that short amount of time when he doesn't have the base speed to be killing reliably by himself?

Oh, of course. You need to have 23/24 speed to be capable of killing anything in 3-P or 3-1, right? I guess we should just disregard every character not called Shinon, Ike, or Mia, since obviously they won't be killing anything.

20 base speed is FINE. It's the same as Gatrie, or Haar, and only 1 below Titania and Oscar. And in some of those cases, Boyd has the advantage of faster growth and a much higher speed cap. In addition, he can double a lot of things. Paladins, Sages, and General are common enemy types that Boyd (T) can often double on his own. For example, level 10 Boyd (T) can double all but two of the Paladins, all of the Sages, and all of the Axe Generals (six out of the nine generals, and some of the Sword and Lance Generals likely won't be fought) in 3-2. Admittedly, he does struggle with Halberdiers and Warriors and Snipers, but to act like he can't double anything is just wrong. As it is, if you give Boyd a Speedwing as well as transfers, then he can reach 24AS around 3-4 or 3-5.

Well, if you can justify how he gets the early levels and why he deserves a speedwing over others who may want it (Haar, etc), then perhaps I'll let it go. Until then, I will simply have to consider the points silly, and ask once more that both these folks drop down to at least below Tauroneo.

GJ, this tier list ranks units in order of contribution to an efficient playthrough. It does not rank units in order of contribution to a perfectly low-turn-counted playthrough. While there is no real definition of what constitutes an efficient playthrough, it certainly does not mean 'using only the best units in the game'. If that were the case, then my playthrough wouldn't be efficient since it dared to use such non-best units as Boyd (T) and Edward and Tanith (T). In fact, if that were the case, I would be hard-pressed to think of a single playthrough documented on this board that actually fulfills that definition. And certainly, there is room in an efficient playthrough to consider 'what happens if we use Gatrie and don't throw him away for not being Haar'.

[RNG Princess]

5 turns for 3-11 is believeable

5 turns for 3-E is reasonable

but 2 turns for 4-P of all chapters, especially HM, sounds like it is less efficient than 5/6 turns because it seems extremely luck based, unsafe or a lie.

Efficiency is also related to safety as well.

Sothe in 3-6 should be safe especially if Micaiah is around and resolve just in case, but how and why is he using beastfoe?

Edited May 7, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Anouleth]

5 turns for 3-11 is believeable

5 turns for 3-E is reasonable

but 2 turns for 4-P of all chapters, especially HM, sounds like it is less efficient than 5/6 turns because it seems extremely luck based, unsafe or a lie.

I've done it before - it doesn't require much in the way of luck, just some competent flying units, such as Jill and Haar. 4-P is dominated by Paladins who need little provocation to gleefully suicide en masse into a well-placed Dragonlord with some Hand Axes. The only enemies that are problematic are a Steel Longbow Bow Knight, Yuma, and a rather temperamental Tempest Blade General who has a tendency to give peace a chance and refuse to attack your units.

Sothe in 3-6 should be safe especially if Micaiah is around and resolve just in case, but how and why is he using beastfoe?

He is providing Beastfoe, because you do not have a good chance of getting it without him. I suppose in theory you could also categorise it under contributing to 1-4, but that really implies that if you don't use Sothe, you will spend 15 turns sifting through the sand in an attempt to get it.

[RNG Princess]

Oh I thought you meant he was using beastfoe, and if he's taking credit for that why can't Ilyana and Marcia take credit for passing speedwings since they are the only means and like Sothe you actually have no chance of passing the speedwings without them; and I thought Micaiah had a good chance at finding beastfoe.

Are you sure its safe? It seems to me like you got lucky but I'd like to try someday.

on another note I find Haar&Heather support useful, him using savior ^^'

Edited May 7, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Yuglyoshi]

Oh I thought you meant he was using beastfoe, and if he's taking credit for that why can't Ilyana and Marcia take credit for passing speedwings since they are the only means and like Sothe you actually have no chance of passing the speedwings without them; and I thought Micaiah had a good chance at finding beastfoe.

That's different. ANY unit can get the Speedwing and they simply have to give it to Ilyana / Marcia to transfer it. Sothe is the only unit that can reasonably GET the Beastfoe.

And in any case, Marcia doesn't have to transfer either of the Speedwings. Any unit with a full inventory can send it back to the convoy to be taken out the next chapter.

Edited May 7, 2011 by Yuglyoshi

[grandjackal]

Oh, of course. You need to have 23/24 speed to be capable of killing anything in 3-P or 3-1, right? I guess we should just disregard every character not called Shinon, Ike, or Mia, since obviously they won't be killing anything.

This is ignoring the point: Unless others weaken things for Boyd to kill (the cavs taking damage which would be inefficient play as they would like to be deeper in with the least damage taken, Shinon when he's chewing down a kill for Boyd for the moments he doesn't just flat out crit-blick the guy, the instances of crit-blicking effecting Boyd still), Boyd's not leveling at a very fast pace.

20 base speed is FINE. It's the same as Gatrie, or Haar, and only 1 below Titania and Oscar. And in some of those cases, Boyd has the advantage of faster growth and a much higher speed cap. In addition, he can double a lot of things. Paladins, Sages, and General are common enemy types that Boyd (T) can often double on his own.

20 AS does not double 18-17 AS. Close, but no cigar.

For example, level 10 Boyd (T) can double all but two of the Paladins, all of the Sages, and all of the Axe Generals (six out of the nine generals, and some of the Sword and Lance Generals likely won't be fought) in 3-2.

Why you bring up a map that's 2 turned? Or we ignoring that we're capable of that for "the good of the tier list", or for the good of Boyd?

Admittedly, he does struggle with Halberdiers and Warriors and Snipers, but to act like he can't double anything is just wrong. As it is, if you give Boyd a Speedwing as well as transfers, then he can reach 24AS around 3-4 or 3-5.

But he can't...And again, Boyd does not just get this wing for free, and must on average have gained 4-5 levels to nab this magical speed number, along with not getting screwed in the process. Why bother with the odds?

GJ, this tier list ranks units in order of contribution to an efficient playthrough. It does not rank units in order of contribution to a perfectly low-turn-counted playthrough. While there is no real definition of what constitutes an efficient playthrough, it certainly does not mean 'using only the best units in the game'. If that were the case, then my playthrough wouldn't be efficient since it dared to use such non-best units as Boyd (T) and Edward and Tanith (T). In fact, if that were the case, I would be hard-pressed to think of a single playthrough documented on this board that actually fulfills that definition. And certainly, there is room in an efficient playthrough to consider 'what happens if we use Gatrie and don't throw him away for not being Haar'.

This is no excuse for playing Soviet Emblem with the first Speedwing, or playing Ninoism as if Boyd just gets away with being force fed up until 3-4 or 3-5 as you claim, when he needs quite a few levels in a short time when he's not leveling quite as fast as we'd want thanks to, again, his mediocre speed base.

[Florete]

I've done it before - it doesn't require much in the way of luck, just some competent flying units, such as Jill and Haar. 4-P is dominated by Paladins who need little provocation to gleefully suicide en masse into a well-placed Dragonlord with some Hand Axes. The only enemies that are problematic are a Steel Longbow Bow Knight, Yuma, and a rather temperamental Tempest Blade General who has a tendency to give peace a chance and refuse to attack your units.

2 turns does seem like a stretch for that map, all things considered. Remember that you also want at least a couple fliers with Tibarn.

This is ignoring the point: Unless others weaken things for Boyd to kill (the cavs taking damage which would be inefficient play as they would like to be deeper in with the least damage taken, Shinon when he's chewing down a kill for Boyd for the moments he doesn't just flat out crit-blick the guy, the instances of crit-blicking effecting Boyd still), Boyd's not leveling at a very fast pace.

This is different from units who aren't Ike how? Early on in part 3, most units either have problems doubling or killing in two hits. Even Ike doesn't get everything.

20 AS does not double 18-17 AS. Close, but no cigar.

Oh, well that changes everything.

Why you bring up a map that's 2 turned? Or we ignoring that we're capable of that for "the good of the tier list", or for the good of Boyd?

3-2 is not reasonably 2 turned. 3 is much more feasible. A mounted unit with Celerity just barely reaches the boss' range on turn 2.

But he can't...And again, Boyd does not just get this wing for free, and must on average have gained 4-5 levels to nab this magical speed number, along with not getting screwed in the process. Why bother with the odds?

Like deployment, because Boyd is not the absolute best choice on average for the Wing, he stands no chance. There is no possibility of Haar and/or Titania being Spd blessed, or one of them not being in play in the long run, or any other factors that would allow Boyd to either get the Wing or have good Spd.

The GJ show continues. Nice to see everyone back here, though. It's almost nostalgic.

This is no excuse for playing Soviet Emblem with the first Speedwing, or playing Ninoism as if Boyd just gets away with being force fed up until 3-4 or 3-5 as you claim, when he needs quite a few levels in a short time when he's not leveling quite as fast as we'd want thanks to, again, his mediocre speed base.

Honestly? In the early part 3 maps, you should be feeding the units you are preparing for later. Everyone can be deployed and almost no one reliably ORKOs. Why wouldn't you feed kills to those whom you want the experience in?

[nflchamp]

In 3-6, Sothe is not only providing Beastfoe, he is also capable of using Beastkiller. As a result, he is responsible for a great deal of offense on the team. He is part of the reason that Nolan and Volug are so good.

No. Sothe can get credit for providing as with (a high percentage of) Beastfoe as he is most likely to get it. Sothe gets the utility of giving us a (high percentage of a) skill that lets pretty much anyone OHKO cats and ORKO tigers if they double or OHKO tigers with crossbow. He does not get credit for just how well any other character puts beastfoe to use. Sothe did not give us someone else's stats and, by extension, did not give us the extent they can use beastfoe.

[Anouleth]

This is ignoring the point: Unless others weaken things for Boyd to kill (the cavs taking damage which would be inefficient play as they would like to be deeper in with the least damage taken, Shinon when he's chewing down a kill for Boyd for the moments he doesn't just flat out crit-blick the guy, the instances of crit-blicking effecting Boyd still), Boyd's not leveling at a very fast pace.

Unless others weaken things to set up the kill, the only person who can kill anything is Ike. These standards that you're applying are ridiculous. Titania does not double reliably, nor does Oscar, nor does Soren, Gatrie, Rhys, Mia does not 2HKO or even 3HKO most enemies, neither does Shinon. Boyd can level at a decent pace when you consider he has a relatively low level. Hell, even Ike only reliably ORKOes Sages and Snipers. So for almost every enemy, you are going to need to weaken them, no matter who you intend to get the kill.

20 AS does not double 18-17 AS. Close, but no cigar.

Well, it's a good thing this isn't a 0% growth tier list.

Why you bring up a map that's 2 turned? Or we ignoring that we're capable of that for "the good of the tier list", or for the good of Boyd?

For a start, I do not think it's reasonable to expect to 2-turn 3-2 since it requires Shinon to critical or Adept Istvan.

But he can't...And again, Boyd does not just get this wing for free, and must on average have gained 4-5 levels to nab this magical speed number, along with not getting screwed in the process. Why bother with the odds?

When did I say this Wing was free? And getting screwed is a threat to all characters except like, Laguz and Royals. I mean, if you're not going to bother with training Boyd because he 'might get speed screwed', you might as well ditch half of high tier. I've had terrible Nolans before.

This is no excuse for playing Soviet Emblem with the first Speedwing, or playing Ninoism as if Boyd just gets away with being force fed up until 3-4 or 3-5 as you claim, when he needs quite a few levels in a short time when he's not leveling quite as fast as we'd want thanks to, again, his mediocre speed base.

So apparently, when you consider the possibility of giving the Speedwing to someone other than Titania or Haar (who are always in play), you are playing 'Soviet Emblem'. A strawman worthy of smashfanatic himself. And apparently, giving an above average unit kills is 'being force fed' and 'Ninoism', as if a unit that is one point below Titania in strength and speed is comparable to fucking Nino.

No. Sothe can get credit for providing as with (a high percentage of) Beastfoe as he is most likely to get it. Sothe gets the utility of giving us a (high percentage of a) skill that lets pretty much anyone OHKO cats and ORKO tigers if they double or OHKO tigers with crossbow. He does not get credit for just how well any other character puts beastfoe to use. Sothe did not give us someone else's stats and, by extension, did not give us the extent they can use beastfoe.

Regardless, he still gets some credit for providing what might be the most powerful skill in the whole of the Part 3 DB chapters.

2 turns does seem like a stretch for that map, all things considered. Remember that you also want at least a couple fliers with Tibarn.

You're probably right, actually, and Jill and Haar might not always be in play.

This is different from units who aren't Ike how? Early on in part 3, most units either have problems doubling or killing in two hits. Even Ike doesn't get everything.

Ike only gets Sages and Snipers, in fact, because 3-P enemies are relatively tough. Against Warriors I think he even 3RKOes.

3-2 is not reasonably 2 turned. 3 is much more feasible. A mounted unit with Celerity just barely reaches the boss' range on turn 2.

The idea behind the 2 turn is that you can drop Shinon on the edge of Istvan's range with a silly forge and Adept, then cross your fingers and hope he criticals. Certainly, I don't expect everyone to do this even outside of the tier list environment - and it would be ridiculous to call a playthrough 'inefficient' for failing to manipulate a 40% reliable strategy.

Edited May 7, 2011 by Black★Star

[Junkhead]

Yeah, mediocre. Are we just gonna act like that isn't mediocre? Because by the time the first speedwing comes in, 24 AS starts becoming the norm to double most things.

24 AS doubles most things in 3-2 up to 3-4. I think it's safe to assume he might get another Spd proc to keep doubling by then, even if you need abundant CEXP & BEXP to do so.

[RNG Princess]

That's different. ANY unit can get the Speedwing and they simply have to give it to Ilyana / Marcia to transfer it. Sothe is the only unit that can reasonably GET the Beastfoe.

And in any case, Marcia doesn't have to transfer either of the Speedwings. Any unit with a full inventory can send it back to the convoy to be taken out the next chapter.

Sothe is the right person to find beastfoe but he's not the only possibility, Micaiah can find it too. If he's taking taking credit for bringing in beastfoe why can't Ilyana (I can understand Marcia's argument) get credit for bringing speedwing? Trading it to her or not she's the only source to bring said speedwing to the GMs and not just the speedwing (adept, blue gem, celerity, etc), therefore she's deployed for a reason or kept alive (other items) for a reason. Its unfair to credit one character for bringing an item and not the other. I remember that contributing items supposibly didn't count for crediting characters am I missing something here? And if he is given credit, Heather better get a trophy too for that rescue staff.

Edited May 7, 2011 by Queen_Elincia