OMG it's a tier list

[Vykan12]

20/8 is 29 str, and with tempest (you get one around here) that's 49 mt with her support.

The tempest blade is acquired when you’re 3/4 done the chapter unless you allow reinforcements beyond turn 10.

And why wouldn't her supporter be in range? What's the point in having Ike go elsewhere? They can both take that area with little assistance.

Ike has 50+ Mt at 1-2 range while Mia has 46 with a silver forge (1 range). Having him attack enemies alone will almost always be more efficient on E. phase than having someone accompany him.

Sadly, though, Ike needs 55 mt to ORKO a large portion of the generals, which is 35 str even with Mia, aka it ain't happening. Oh well, would've been nice.

You like to bring up the hammer a lot and Ike can use it.

Plus he isn't around in 3-5, and has no 2 range, so in the rare instance where Mia is facing a high enough ratio of 1 range to 2 range enemies on enemy phase that it becomes worth it to strap on a wind edge or storm sword, the boost from Adept makes it better.

If he isn’t around in 3-5 then you have 1 less competitor for adept there. As for 2 range, Mia’s options are terrible. Wind edges make her offence comparable to bowgun!Shinon, then storm swords are practically nonexistent (you have to steal most of them for any serious usage).

You still haven't told me if it's worth having ~80% kill on one unit and 30% kill on another rather than 65% on both, for example.

Depends on the situation, though in terms of balancing a team the latter is obviously more ideal. I’m not sure what you’re getting at though; if I put adept on Ulki, I’m assigning him some negative for taking a resource other units want. That hasn’t changed.

High crit forges give him ~5 to 8% crit rate, not really worth it.

Then give him a killer weapon. 30 crit instead of 15, as well as a lot less expensive.

It's annoying, but if I'm going to be honest Mia needs level 20/15, or really just 20/13 typically, to be awesome.

That’s a pretty damn high level for her to reach. I had her in my top 5 and gave her paragon in one of the part 4 chapters and she only hit lv --/20/10 in time for 4-E I believe. Maybe my memory’s just foggy on that though.

Going by pure theory though, if she comes into part 3 at --/20/3, she’d need 7 levels in 2 chapters to hit --/20/10. She only gets 25 exp per kill in 4-1, so she’d need a whopping 14 kills there. The gap between Mia’s level and the enemy would be roughly the same in 4-4, though that chapter has a higher enemy density I guess.

At any rate, when are you expecting her to hit “awesome” level? 4-E-3 or 4?

I actually don't have an issue with giving him a hammer. I don't think we need them too much in part 3 anyway. There are generals, sure, but we have lots of ways to kill them.

We do?

Better to use them when dealing with the annoying sleep staves and range tomes and silence aoe boss.

I think this whole “whoamgsleepstaff” deal is being overblown. Both sleep users can be killed on the first turn using Rafiel or the second with Reyson (you’ll need to use pass on 2 units though). Then if someone durable like Cain or Ike is put to sleep, they can survive a whole turn of physical attacks quite easily. Then there’s that moron Lekain who does a status-all that cancels out the effect of sleep. Once the staff users are gone, the siege tomes are easy to dispatch with a flier.

I'm perfectly willing to give Gatrie killer axes if he wants one.

You do realize that killer axes are buyable in part 4, right? A killer axe only costs 2880g, which is easily less than the price of a forge. If you give Mia a forged silver with full Mt and crit, it costs a whopping 9000g. You could reduce the benefit to +3 in each (ie +3 Mt/+9 crit), but the price is still 3240g for a weapon that’s weaker than a silver blade.

I think I'm mostly just having trouble getting over the stuff about Gatrie's weapon choices in the Gatrie vs. Hawks thing.

I don’t follow.

Simple enough to have Sothe toss the baselard, dragonfoe, and the vague katti while he is digging up treasure. I think I even tossed the white gem so I could forge a bit more in 4-5 instead of 4-E-1.

It’s still a convoluted strategy designed to help Mia, though I guess I cannot really protest about it beyond that. I personally like sending the 4-3 laguz gem into the convoy for 4-4/4-5 use.

Gatrie and Haar don't need it, again all it changes is the frequency of healing.

Do you know how much that extra avo does for Haar’s mage problem?

Assuming we took some measures to cap Haar’s spd in second tier, he has 26 at --/20/1. That nets him 84 avo, which jumps to 114 with Ike’s support. Taking some 3-11 mages:

1x Fire Sage lvl 14 (Elfire)

HP 35, Atk 28, AS 20, Hit 145, Avo 64, Def 13, Res 18, Crit 9, Ddg 14

2x Thunder Sage lvl 14 (Elthunder)

HP 34, Atk 27, AS 19, Hit 136, Avo 61, Def 13, Res 18, Crit 19, Ddg 13

1x Wind Sage lvl 17 (Elwind)

HP 37, Atk 30, AS 19, Hit 153, Avo 63, Def 14, Res 19, Crit 19, ddg 15

Before the support, Haar is facing 70/54/81 true hit, respectively. After it, he’s facing 19.5/10/31, respectively. Those are some massive hit rate drops. Hell, I didn’t even believe the 50.5 hit drop-off Haar had with the fire sage until I re-checked the numbers.

So look at that, we just fixed the #2 problem of arguably the very best character in the game thanks to that support. Now you can do crazy things like have Haar savior a lv --/20/0 Ike and go solo huge parts of a map with forged hand axes without fear of anything.

Obviously, putting that Ike support on someone who wasn’t MVP will see even more improvement. Let’s take a --/20/5 Boyd for instance, who goes from 88 to 110 avo.

2x Warrior lvl 11 (Stl Poleaxe)

53.5 hp, 45 atk, 27 AS, 137.5 hit, 76.5 avo, 22 def, 14 res, 14 crit, 22.5 cev

1x Sniper lvl 10 (Stl Bow)

47 hp, 37 atk, 26 AS, 161 hit, 74 avo, 22 def, 17 res, 25 crit, 23 cev

1x Axe Gen lvl 14 (Silver Poleaxe)

50 hp, 49 atk, 25 AS, 145 hit, 76 avo, 30 def, 23 res, 15 crit, 26 cev

Before supports, he faces 50/86/63 real hit. After supports it changes to 15/52/25. Again, those are remarkable changes.

I mean, sure, it might be nice to be able to give it to whomever, but for most of them all you are doing is making them need to be healed less. It isn't as useful overall as an extra tank.

The problem is that Mia relies on her supports for durability a lot more than other units are, and I don’t think you mentioned that a single time in Gatrie vs Mia. If we don’t give her the exact support she wants (ie Ike), she suffers terribly whereas Gatrie suffers minimal losses without a support (oh noes 31 def -> 28, I still take 8+ rounds or something crazy like that on average).

btw, am I nuts or was there someone other than you, dondon, and kirsche a few pages back that actually contributed a couple of good posts against Gatrie?

Maybe it was Mekkah, otherwise I dunno.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Vykan12

[-Cynthia-]

I think your post exudes stupidity more than anything Interceptor said in his previous post, smash.

Int specifically said that there is no reason to rush the DB's part 3 chapters. You took this to mean that combat efficiency doesn't matter. How you managed to come to this conclusion, I can't possibly even begin to fathom.

You seem to forget that 3-6, 3-12, and 3-13 have no BEXP bonus for turn limit, so objectively there is no incentive to clear the maps faster. In addition, as defense maps, offense is mostly secondary. These are the two primary differences between the DB maps and the largely irrelevant examples that you assembled as a strawman of Int's argument.

Indeed. You also didn't address Int's main point, which is that Adept can often make it easier for Zihark to die. Zihark with Adapt can't expect to hold a space in 3-6 or 3-13, since if it triggers at the wrong time Zihark has a great chance of dying due to additional enemy exposure.

[Vykan12]

Which is the crux of why arguing with you is like trying to nail a Jell-O mold to the wall

It's like you see a post that has a little 8-bit doggie avatar, the rational part of your mind goes on vacation to Morocco, and you start bashing your face against the keyboard.

This is like watching a Powerpoint presentation on strategy given by Dhumace the Tactical Neanderthal.

and that you're flinging your own shit across the room like a monkey in a zoo

My firefox literally crashed when I read this, probably because it didn't brace itself for the sheer stupidity of your post.

Are we going to drink tea and eat crumpets and talk about the newest episode of Desperate Housewives instead?

Keep it coming boys.

You seem to forget that 3-6, 3-12, and 3-13 have no BEXP bonus for turn limit, so objectively there is no incentive to clear the maps faster.

The problem is the whole basis behind ranking units is on how they help beat the game faster. You could interpret that as having an incentive to rush in any given chapter.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Vykan12

[dondon151]

The problem is the whole basis behind ranking units is on how they help beat the game faster. You could interpret that as having an incentive to rush in any given chapter.

Yes, but there is considerably less need to rush in 3-6, 3-12, and 3-13 compared to other chapters, so as I said before, offense is secondary.

[Progenitus]

Int specifically said that there is no reason to rush the DB's part 3 chapters. You took this to mean that combat efficiency doesn't matter. How you managed to come to this conclusion, I can't possibly even begin to fathom.

According to int's logic, there's no reason to rush ANY chapter, other than things like 1-1 and 3-3 (and a few other chapters I might have forgotten) because we have a turn limit to beat those chapters in, but those turn limits are so lenient anyway it barely even matters.

The reason why, however, we WANT to beat chapters fairly quickly anyway, is in the name of efficiency, so that these tier debates actually have some sort of purpose. A stronger (i.e. more efficient) team is capable of beating chapters faster than a weaker team, or if you want to put it another way, they have a much greater chance of beating the chapter in X amount of turns than the weaker team, because they are that much more reliable when it comes to killing and surviving and whatnot.

But let's suppose that int's statement was somehow only applied to 3-6 and 3-12. What about other chapters, like 1-3, where we COULD just sit around and kill off reinforcements, but we don't because we're actually worried about efficiency and turn counts and beating chapters as quickly and efficiently as possible? Why are we rushing THOSE chapters but not 3-6 or 3-12? The fact that we lose BEXP is laughable, because you get an AMAZING 40 BEXP for beating 1-3 within 10 turns, since you automatically get 80 for just beating the chapter no matter how long you take and you get 12.5 BEXP for each playable unit that escapes and 50 for each NPC (and I can only assume that 40 BEXP doesn't immediately go to 0 if you take even 1 turn above the turn limit). The CEXP youd' get from killing ONE reinforcement would already override 40 BEXP (since 40 BEXP is only giving a level 1 unit 20 exp because this is HM, ignoring the fact that none of our units are going to be level 1 anymore, while these enemies are liek level 10 so people like Edward and Aran are getting like 25 exp for killing it).

And this can be applied to many chapters, such as 4-4 or 4-5 where we have hoards of reinforcements to abuse, and the CEXP we could get from abusing them would far outweigh the extra BEXP we'd get from completing the chapter on time.

So, why do we not care about beating 3-6 and 3-12 faster, but we'd care about beating chapters like 1-3 and 4-4 and basically every other chapter in the game faster?

the only logical conclusions that can be reached at this point are either...

- Int is pulling a double standard, by saying that it applies to 3-6 and 3-12 but not the other chapters in the game, which proves he's a moron.

- int applies his logic to all chapters, which means efficiency doesn't matter because turn counts don't matter, which proves he's a moron.

If you couldn't either conclusion, that's only because your logic is horrible and you're a tool for blindly following everything he says.

You seem to forget that 3-6, 3-12, and 3-13 have no BEXP bonus for turn limit, so objectively there is no incentive to clear the maps faster.

I already explained that the BEXP is a pointless "incentive", due to the fact that this is HM and BEXP has a very small effect, but thanks for proving to everyone that you don't read, again.

I'm pretty sure you could get a greater amount of EXP overall if you just boss abused, let alone just sit around and kill off reinforcements, in the other chapters, like 3-2 or 4-4 or whatever, so there's no reason why "turn counts don't matter lol" should only apply to specific DB chapters and nothing else.

In addition, as defense maps, offense is mostly secondary.

So what? Offense helps me beat the chapter faster, because to complete 3-6 and 3-12, we have to kill a certain amount of enemies, which is made easier and faster if we had OFFENSE, just as defense helps us tank more enemies and deal damage to more enemies and just survive in general. We can't beat chapters if we just sit there with our thumbs up our ass because our guys have no offense and can't kill anything.

These are the two primary differences between the DB maps and the largely irrelevant examples that you assembled as a strawman of Int's argument.

Crying "strawman!" doesn't disprove anyone.

You also didn't address Int's main point, which is that Adept can often make it easier for Zihark to die. Zihark with Adapt can't expect to hold a space in 3-6 or 3-13, since if it triggers at the wrong time Zihark has a great chance of dying due to additional enemy exposure.

Well, you see Cynthia, I didn't want to bother to read the rest of Int's posts (or even response to it), because I like my brain cells and I don't want them to die off because I was slamming my head after reading int's posts because of how retarded they are.

But since you're a tool and you're only agreeing with int for the sole reason that he's against me (if you used any sort of logic at all you'd see how stupid Int's statement was), I'll explain just for you how to keep Zihark alive.

You don't need every single unit in the DB capable of walling, at least not in 3-13 (maybe in 3-6, but anyone at the river is facing like 1 laguz a turn anyway, so extra durability/avoid/whatever means you need to be healed less often, which is still a very good thing in thsi situation, mind). You only need one serious tank to block that chokepoint at the middle ledge, and perhaps have the supporter sit next to him and block the other ledge, and let the NPC halberdier stay put (I don't believe he even moves unless he takes too much damage anyway). Then you have your filler units like Fiona or whoever you're not using block ledges. This leaves the rest of the team like Volug/Tauroneo/whoever to wander around in a tight group, slaughtering everything in their path, since this nets your units more exp, which helps them get ready for part 4. You have your fragile but strong people like Sothe and Zihark kill stuff because they generally have decent offense (I usually have Jill do this too, since I throw beastfoe on her, but that can go to any unit really), and then you have your tanks like Nolan or Aran or Tauroneo (one of them is probably sitting at that aforementioned chokepoint. I usually use Aran. Sometimes I use Nolan to tank the chokepoint and Zihark is sitting next to him, which is really hilarious because whenever Zihark enters best bio I have him jump down the ledge and solo half the laguz because he has a ton of avoid now since Nolan can still be in support range) move in front of them and prepare for enemy phase.

I have no clue how you handle 3-13, but this works ridiculously well for me, since I kill off like all the laguz in the chapter (other than that bunch in the top left corner, but, lol3-13archer >>>> them. And I have people blocking that ledge anyway), and I never need to restart for anyone.

Edit: Oh, and before anyone screams "PEMN" about this tidbit about Zihark, there's a difference between "personal experience" and "you should actually try it out".

Edited July 14, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Florete]

Although I don't agree with smash's aggression on the matter, I must agree with his logic. Just because a chapter is defense based doesn't mean it suddenly doesn't matter how long the chapter takes, otherwise it would be pointless to even bring up chapters like 3-6 and 3-12 in debates because as long as someone isn't OHKOd, it's easy to keep them alive and beat the chapter, it just takes longer.

(and I can only assume that 40 BEXP doesn't immediately go to 0 if you take even 1 turn above the turn limit)

This is true. I bought the guide for this game strictly for laughs (and boy, did I get a lot), yet it provided some useful information on this matter in the form of complete BEXP tables for every chapter. It's been a while since I've pulled it out, but all chapters have a secondary turn limit in which you'll get half the original max for finishing within that amount of time.

For example, 3-9 gives you 10 turns to achieve 1500 BEXP. However, if you finish in 11-15 turns, you still get 750 of that.

I have no clue how you handle 3-13, but this works ridiculously well for me, since I kill off like all the laguz in the chapter

I do this as well, every single time. The only enemies I don't kill are the GM's, and sometimes I even manage to kill Ike via Sleep.

[-Cynthia-]

While I agree than turn count for 3-6 and 3-13 should be considered, we should also consider chances of success without any important units dying. I'm of the mindset that 3-6 and 3-13 should be played defensively, Zihark kamikazing himself might shave off a few turns, but it's a very risky manuever.

Edited July 14, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[dondon151]

Although I don't agree with smash's aggression on the matter, I must agree with his logic. Just because a chapter is defense based doesn't mean it suddenly doesn't matter how long the chapter takes,

I never said that it "doesn't matter how long the chapter takes," and I'm pretty sure Int would agree with me on this; in fact this is an oversimplification. Of course it's better to clear chapters faster than slower, but unhindered probability-reliant offense on the DB's part 3 chapters is akin to bumrushing any other chapter with little realization of the risks involved.

This is true. I bought the guide for this game strictly for laughs (and boy, did I get a lot), yet it provided some useful information on this matter in the form of complete BEXP tables for every chapter. It's been a while since I've pulled it out, but all chapters have a secondary turn limit in which you'll get half the original max for finishing within that amount of time.

The both of you are focusing too much on a statement that I intended as an addendum to my primary argument. The implementation of turn-based BEXP is the game telling you "this chapter is meant to be cleared quickly" or "this chapter is not meant to be cleared quickly," which serves as a guideline for which maps are defend maps and which are offense maps (as if it weren't obvious enough anyway), which leads into my argument that offense is secondary on defense maps, thus good offense is not as important on defense maps.

Clearing the map faster is a subjective incentive. Clearing the map faster because the game gives you something is an objective incentive. This is just to define what I meant when I said "objective." Realize that on defense maps, the latter is missing, while in offense maps both are present.

For example, 3-9 gives you 10 turns to achieve 1500 BEXP. However, if you finish in 11-15 turns, you still get 750 of that.

750 is a ton worse than 1500, but this isn't true anyway as a certain amount of BEXP is deducted per turn over the limit instead of a flat cut. I'm fairly sure of this...

If you couldn't either conclusion, that's only because your logic is horrible and you're a tool for blindly following everything he says.

No, you rimjobbing dickwad, I agree with Int because Zihark has killed himself numerous times with untimely Adept activation.

Seriously stop thinking that I suck up to Int; he and I disagree on numerous things and I personally detest asskissing. Associating poor logic with being a tool is the pot calling the kettle black. I've agreed and disagreed with every competent debater on this forum; you're the only one who seems to disagree with people just because you don't like them.

Edit: Oh, and before anyone screams "PEMN" about this tidbit about Zihark, there's a difference between "personal experience" and "you should actually try it out".

I did try it out, and it didn't work.

Edited July 14, 2009 by dondon151

[Florete]

750 is a ton worse than 1500, but this isn't true anyway as a certain amount of BEXP is deducted per turn over the limit instead of a flat cut. I'm fairly sure of this...

Well, to be blunt, you're wrong. I have the info in my book and I've checked it a few times myself. This isn't FE9. If it were, you'd be right. Also:

The both of you are focusing too much on a statement that I intended as an addendum to my primary argument.

I was only confirming smash's suspicion with that, not making an argument myself.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[dondon151]

Well, to be blunt, you're wrong. I have the info in my book and I've checked it a few times myself. This isn't FE9. If it were, you'd be right.

Huh, I could have swore this happens as I sometimes go 1 turn over the limit. Oh well.

[Vykan12]

Should Jill really be > Aran?

First off, neither unit really doubles in part 1. Jill has 15 base AS while 1-6-1 enemies have AS ranging from 12-17, with the exception of a couple knights and steel lance!peggies. In 1-6-2 she’s under a similar predicament, though if she levelled up she has a 65% chance of additionally doubling a fighter, some mages and some extra cavs. In 1-7 the enemies jump to 13+ AS, so now Jill needs 3 levels just to double like 1/5 of the enemies here. Then she disappears in 1-8, and now she doubles basically nothing in 1-E (even knights have 14+ AS now lawl).

I’m not sure what kind of level to put Aran in 1-6-1 so I’ll just compare 2 Arans to Jill.

[1.4 levels / chapter]

Aran lv 11 (forged iron lance, C Nolan): 26 hp, 25 atk, 11 AS, 15 def, 4 res, 39 avo

[2 levels / chapter]

Aran lv 13 (forged iron lance, C Nolan): 27 hp, 26.5 atk, 12 AS, 16 def, 5 res, 42 avo

Jill lv 14 (forged iron axe): 24 hp, 24 atk, 15 AS, 13 def, 3 res, 44 avo

In both comparisons Aran wins durability by a reasonable margin. Pit them both against a 20 atk sword knight in 1-6-2: Aran is 6-7HKOed while Jill is 4HKOed. Similarly, Aran can take an extra hit in many other cases, which is obviously important since Jill gets 2-3HKOed by a scary number of enemies.

And this is all at Jill’s best point of comparison with Aran. Fast forward to 1-E alone and we already have:

Aran lv 19 (forged steel lance, A Nolan): 30 hp, 34 atk, 14 AS, 21 def, 7 res, 68 avo

Jill lv 19 (forged steel ace, B Volug): 27 hp, 29 atk, 18 AS, 16 def, 6 res, 73 avo

Aran has a huge atk lead now. He can almost 2HKO armors now whereas Jill is failing to 2HKO higher end fighters and soldiers, though she does double in some places to compensate I guess.

Defensively though, Aran really pulls ahead. A 30 atk fighter only manages a 4HKO while 2HKOing Jill. The same applies to a couple 31 atk enemies (steel greatlance!soldier, steel blade!armor, steel longbow!archer, etc). Against weaker enemies, Aran’s HKO lead is even bigger. A myrmidon will only do 1 damage to him while 5HKOing Jill. Or take a javelin!soldier who does 3 damage to Aran (a 10HKO) as opposed to 4HKOing Jill.

Jumping to 3-6:

Aran lv 20/2 (FSL, A Nolan): 33 hp, 36.5 atk, 16 AS, 24 def, 73 avo

Jill lv 20/2 (FSA, B Volug): 29.5 hp, 32 atk, 21 AS, 18 def, 80 avo

Offensively, Jill doubles tigers for 22-26 damage while Aran single hits them for 15-17. However, he has the same damage gap in his favor against cats, so they might as well be tied.

Defensively, Aran takes 0-14 damage (3+HKO) while Jill takes 4-13 (3-8HKO). However, if Aran manages to stop getting doubled by cats at some point in the chapter, he’ll be faring much better against them than Jill is. As for tigers, Aran takes 8-17 damage (2-5HKO), though the 41 atk tigers quit 2HKOing him after just another point of def or 2 points of hp. Jill, on the other hand, gets 3HKOed by the lone A strike tiger and is 2HKOed by the rest.

Now for 3-13:

Aran lv 20/12 (A Nolan, silver lance): 38 hp, 39 atk, 19 AS, 27 def, 82 avo

Jill lv 20/12 (A Volug, silver axe): 34.5 hp, 35 atk, 25 AS, 23 def, 104 avo

Jill still isn’t doubling cats, so their offensive situation is pretty much the same as in 3-6. Durability-wise though, Aran is only taking 2-4 damage from cats while Jill is 5-6HKOed. Against tigers, Aran is 3HKOed by all of them while Jill is being 2HKOed. Giving either unit a seraph robe would jump that to a 4/3HKO, respectively. Oh, I suppose Jill is only facing 40-50 display hit now while it’s more like 70ish for Aran, so that makes things more arguable.

Now we arrive in part 4 and neither unit is really that useful. A 20/16 Jill only has 22 str and 72 base hit, so giving her something like a silver poleax gives her 40 atk/132 hit. That only 2 rounds a 4-P halberdier at 71 display hit. Then even the loladins manage to 4-5HKO her, though their hit rates won’t be too impressive (ranging from 30-40ish display). Looking further into the future, we kind of need to crown her so that she can uncap her spd, otherwise she won’t double consistently in 4-3. But then that would hurt her already flimsy strength. A 20/17/4 Jill w/ a forged silver would only manage 46 atk, which is 3+HKO on basically anything. Oh yeah, and for Jill to even double armors in 4-E-1, she needs to have reached third tier lv 7 or higher. Getting her to the magic 34 AS requires her to be as high as third tier lv 12, which probably won’t happen without paragon/BEXP/wtv.

Then we have Aran, the man who doubles nothing, and at this point of the game it’s far less forgivable.

Now I did overlook Jill’s mobility in all this, but remember that her poor durability throughout the game limits how well she can actually use it. Moreover, 1-7, 1-E, 3-13 and possibly 4-4 reduce her move advantage to a free trip up a ledge and canto. I might have inflated either unit’s level along the way, but I’m not a really good judge of that since I don’t generally waste my time with tier 1 units on HM. Regardless, Aran clearly survives hits better at points where you’re starving for decent tanks, whereas Jill’s offensive lead on Aran is never quite as remarkable.

[Narga_Rocks]

Narga, are you purposely sandbagging Aran or something?

Not purposely. I've never trained him so I'm guessing. I'll say what I do in part 1, you say what you do.

Finish chapters within max bexp, or 1 too many. Aside from 1-E I think I managed that each chapter.

Didn't even let Edward kill much in 1-P since I was dropping him and Leo so I focused kills on Micaiah and had Edward scarf down vulneraries after blocking axes with his face, and did pretty much the same focusing kills on Nolan and Micaiah in 1-1, though obviously without Edward "tanking".

Get volug to S strike by some time in 1-E, but aside from 1-5 and 1-6-2 try to make sure he isn't killing stuff when attacking.

Let Sothe attack without killing as much as possible, but killing when he has to in order to prevent to much enemy phase or too slow moving.

Don't let Taur kill if I can help it. Which generally consists of picking up Edward for the first half of 1-6-1 and most of 1-6-2. Had to have someone take Edward away to finish 1-6-1 in 8 or 9 turns. Couldn't figure out how to do it before the reinforcements on turn 9 enemy phase show up without Taur at the end.

Of the first tiers, only train 4, in my case: Micaiah, Nolan, Jill, Ilyana (can be switched to Micaiah, Nolan, Jill, Aran, obviously)

Leo and Aran actually got a couple of levels along the way simply because I couldn't find a way to finish quickly enough without letting them weaken or kill, depending on the placements.

5 or 6 turn 1-6-2, meaning the turn 4 mounted knight reinforcements got to live, or most of them anyway, plus a few units around the boss.

To finish 1-7 as quickly as possible and still let all the soldiers escape, had to have Tormod, Vika, and Muarim take most of the bottom right, around 5 or 6 enemies. Still finished one turn over the bexp number, I think. Again, a bunch of reinforcements had to live for efficiency's sake.

In 1-8, with a little help from Vika had the units I was training kill all the top and right side, while Muarim and Tormod took care of the south and Nailah/Volug took on the west.

In 1-E, had Black Knight kill two guys blocking ledges so Nailah could get to the thieves without taking away pass until 4-1. Nailah killed a bit in the middle and top right because no one else could live through it, but had Volug go with her and kill what he could. No one else would've survived.

Tried to get Zihark a level before 3-6 because I was going to try to use him a bit.

Gave a fair amount of bexp to Laura so when healing is unnecessary in part 3 she can actually help to remove stuff.

Basically, I tried to minimize exp for everyone I wasn't using, only trained 4 tier 1's, didn't let Sothe kill when I could help it, sent Volug against things he couldn't kill, Edward never even reached level 9, Leo around there too, and Aran may have reached level 10.

And I still couldn't get Nolan, Jill, and Ilyana to level 19. I got Micaiah to level 20, but that's it, and it took paragon in 1-9, which took it from Z or Sothe in 1-8 since we can't access anyone else in the base. And I let Micaiah kill as much as I could in 1-9 and attack as little as possible in 1-E to give more exp to what I was training.

And Jill, Nolan, and Ilyana all started at a higher level than Aran, so giving the same number of kills to Aran as I gave Ilyana would mean his level would be a bit lower.

While I'm not trying to give a personal experience argument for why Aran shouldn't be level 19, I'm just saying I tried to do as much as I could to minimize experience on what wasn't being used and focus on the 4 tier 1s I was raising. And aside from Micaiah they only reached level 18.

So no, not purposely sandbagging Aran, just giving the best guess I can on what level someone raising 4 tier 1s and getting Volug to S strike and not wasting turns killing enemies that push us past the max bexp cutoff line would get Aran to.

I came up with level 15, 16, or 17.

So who's doing better? Volug? And Tauroneo when he joins in 3-13. That's basically it. No one else has the concrete durability to even come close to surviving 2 tigers unless we throw stat boosters around, and at the very least they're doing it way after Aran manages it.

Oh no if he's RNG screwed in HP or def he's getting 2HKO'd.

No wait, it doesn't matter, because guys like nolan and Jill need to be ridiculously RNG BLESSED to not get 2HKO'd.

Um, even a 20/1 Aran is basically even money for being 2RKO'd instead of 3RKO'd. I don't think having a ~50% chance of being 2RKO'd is something to ignore. I haven't done the math or anything, but with 32.5 hp and 21+2 def he's looking at taking 32 damage and having .5 hp left. I realize that 32.5 does not mean 50% chance of either 32 or 33, because he would be anywhere from 31 to 34 most of the time. But he has a high chance of being 2RKO'd at 20/1, and I can't see how he can reach level 20 unless we play chapters long. Sure, killing a bunch of pegs on turn 10 in 1-6-2 and mounted knights in 1-6-2 would get more experience, so would killing the reinforcements of 1-7, but you can't tell me you can kill all these things and finish 1-6-* in a combined total of 15 turns (usually 9+6) and finish 1-7 in 10 turns.

And the reason why being 2HKO'd is bad, is because everyone else is. And they have better endgames than he does. And Edward is considered way worse, but he's 2HKO'd too. And while those other people are higher for a reason, he needs to be able to give us something for it to be anything but neutral. If you are performing just like almost everybody else at a certain point, and there is someone else doing more, it isn't anything he can hold over Boyd.

As for 3-13, where he is more likely to be 3RKOd, Nolan can get there easily if you don't give him double earth. Considering dodging for him is unreliable even with double earth, I'd say being at around level 6 or 7 for 3-13 is reasonable. He's 3RKOd at that point from 41 mt Tigers with an A def support, and depending on his levels, 20/5 if he's blessed and 20/8 if he's screwed will manage (he lives by 4.4 hp at level 8, using averages, so he'd have to be rather screwed to die at level 20/8.)

lvl 15? wtf? That's only 1 level a chapter for him when he's getting 20-25 exp a kill and ~5 for hitting things. Are we training 8 guys or something, or are we doing stupid things like having Sothe solo the map, because that's the only way any DB unit is only gaining 1 level a chapter.

He should at like level 19 after part 1.

Are you are counting 1-3? He's facing less than half the map. Generally the only way to finish stuff on time that I found was letting Sothe and Volug and similar units weaken as much as I could, and kill those weakened things with the guys I was training. That limits the amount of hit experience a fair deal, which adds up and likely costs my 4 tier 1s each a level. But only 1 level anyway.

In 1-3, he's one of THREE guys who doesn't get OHKO'd or 2HKO'd by the entire map (the others being Nolan, and of course Sothe). Considering our next tank in line is a guy named Edward who doesn't even beat Aran's base def until tier 2, this is a laughable idea that Aran isn't "exactly special".

He basically applies this to half the map, less really since there is a limited number of enemies on the southwest side. Don't forget that the chokepoint is two wide and Nolan and Sothe do more damage and Nolan can have 1-2 range, and Sothe has a higher #HKO. Still, he might be able to exercise it on 1 turn, then we are rushing toward the escape square ignoring the reinforcements from the top and the chokepoint near the exit is one square, making it Sothe's job.

He can possibly help on 1 turn with his better #HKO totals than others, but both of the other 2 guys that can do it cause more damage and let us actually have a hope of finishing in 10 turns.

In 1-4 he has a significantly better chance of surviving 2 rounds from anything over anyone not named Sothe and Nolan. And before any fucktard says "but Edward tanks the same/better since both are getting 2HKO'd", Edward has basically a 0% chance of surviving 2 hits from anything in this chapter no matter what you throw at him. Aran is generally losing ~50% of his HP from the laguz at base level, which means gaining a single level from 1-3, and eventually leveling up during the chapter, can vastly improve his performance.

How? He needs to pull off a level in 1-3 and then pull off either defence and hp, or a speed point to reach not 2RKO from cats, ditto for 24 mt tigers except speed don't help, and isn't getting there for all the 26 mt tigers period. Also, he needs spd to avoid the 2RKO by a combination of 26 mt tiger and a cat. Hp and def doesn't help there. Finally, for the combination of a 24 mt tiger and a cat, he needs either spd or hp and def.

Chance of getting def and hp, btw, is .35. Chance of getting speed is .35. Chance of getting either is 1 - .65x.65, or 57.75%.

Now, that's a 57.75% chance of not being 2RKOd by cats.

Also, a 57.75% chance of not being 2RKOd by a cat and a 24 mt tiger.

Only a 35% chance of not being 2RKOd by 24 mt tigers.

And 0% chance of not being 2RKOd by 26 mt tigers.

Oh, and 0% chance of not being 2RKOd by a combination of a 24mt tiger and a 26 mt tiger.

Also, only a 35% chance of not being 2RKOd by a combination of a cat and a 26 mt tiger.

Plus, he still needs to get a level in 1-3, because bexp is most likely giving him str, skl, def, and def alone doesn't cut it for any combination.

So even if you somehow get him a level in 1-3, he is at <40% chance of being 3RKOd or 4RKOd by most things in the chapter, and a 57.75% for 1 enemy type, of which there are 5/17, or ~29.4% of the enemies. And there is only like one spot where you can face two at once. Also, he's got a 57.75% chance for 1 specific combination, and there are 5/17 cats and 4/17 24 mt tigers, so 9/17 but they need to be in a specific combination.

So everything basically has a >40% chance of still 2RKOing him, and most things have a >60% chance of 2RKOing him.

So yeah, he's got an actual chance at being 3RKOd, unlike Ed, Leo, Micaiah, Laura, Ilyana, and Meg. But since those are not good percentages, to have a good strategy it would need to plan for him being 2RKOd anyway.

By 1-7 he should be at least 4HKO'd by a majority of enemies, since at 14/0 with B Laura he has 27.5 HP, 16.9 def. You need ~26 att to 3HKO, which is a bit high, and he's still doing better than a lot of other people anyway. A guy like level 17 Jill with a C support has ~25.5 HP, 15 def, which means only ~23.5 att is needed to 3HKO, ~27.75 att to 2HKO.

You are giving him 7 levels in 4 chapters, you know that, right? 1-3 is shorter for him, 1-5 is 6 turns, and 1-6 is longer. It cancels, so 4 chapters. Heck, it is less than 4 chapters since he has 31 turns plus 1-3, and he does not have 9 turns in 1-3.

Anyway, Muarim, Tormod, Vika, Sothe, Volug.

Tormod may only have 12 def, but 34 hp he's already at 4HKO or better for 23 mt or less, 3HKOd for 24 mt to 29 mt, and 2HKOd for 30 mt to 46 mt.

Aran is 4HKOd or better for 25 mt or less, 3HKOd for 26 mt to 31 mt, and 2HKOd by 32 mt to 44.

So, since we are focusing on 3HKO, that's 29 mt or less for Tormod, and 31 mt or less for Aran.

Number of guys in the entire chapter with 30 or 31 mt: 1.

This guy's hit: 83.

Tormod's avo: 54.

Listed hit:

29, +/- 20 based on bio. Djur will likely be on best, since his bio puts it there from turn 4 to 11.

Tormod will be neutral on turn 9 and good on turn 10.

So he's looking at 49% listed on turn 8, and 39% listed on turn 9, and 34% listed on turn 10.

So Tormod is basically 3HKOd for the same stuff as Aran is, and stomps his offence, and if you are worried about him killing stuff, oh well.

At best, Aran has a bit going on for him in that he can go North from the beginning and have a better chance at surviving against those things near the ally's exit. He gets like 2 turns where he matters, and that's if you don't send Volug or simply wait until you can send others. It isn't like the boss' area is hard and you can clear things with all your units, open the doors, then run out to the 4 guys around the door and kill them while the ally's are trailing behind.

By 1-E his durability is pretty ridiculous. 29-30 HP and at least 20 def. Half the myrmidons don't even damage him anymore, which is laughable because one of the myrms is a 20 att killing edge, which means a unit like Jill is losing like 12 out of her 27ish HP if it crits. Steel axe fighters have issues 3HKOing him, which is scary because these same fighters are likely 2HKOing Jill/Zihark/Tormod and come really close to Sothe/Nolan. Then we have things like 24 att javelin soldiers that do like 4 damage to Aran, and at that point it becomes a "whocares-HKO", but like 10+ to Zihark/Tormod/etc., which leaves them with single digit HP after 3 hits.

Muarim, BK, Nailah, Volug.

The others are passable and can be healed, and will do almost as much damage, or more. He's got a bit going for him here, especially since he cares less about myrms doubling him, though I still haven't seen justification for level 20 aside from being told I'm sandbagging him, which isn't justification.

But when 4 guys are so much better, and Sothe deals more damage and Zihark deals more damage and Tormod deals more damage and Vika has enough avo to care less that 38 hp and 14 def isn't as good as him for most mt scores against.

so yeah, wtfrofl @ thinking he's not "exactly special".

What was special? There's always someone better, and his best chapter, 1-E, has 4 units clearly better, and 3 units with passable durability and more offence.

I personally don't mind if Naesala is moved above Aran, but seriously, stop sandbagging him. We already have people like Int who hate him for no reason.

I don't hate him, so don't worry I'll start doing that. I tried to use him a bit and think having someone with more def might be nice, but I don't see what's special. It's not like I'm intentionally sandbagging him. I'd never say he's bad or anything, and as for the level I'm giving him that was simply an educated guess. 15 was kinda low end, it was really just an example. My guess was really "less than 18", or I said something similar. I don't know specifically how much less. 17 is lower than you give him, but it's the best I can see him getting.

And I kinda doubt Int hates Aran, but since none of us are telepaths I can't know any more than you.

I don't have a problem with Boyd and Aran fighting over who isn't the bottom of upper mid. Maybe one or the other should be higher, but I haven't seen a convincing argument for kicking either out of upper mid, nor have I seen one for putting either higher than that.

The difference between these units you listed and Boyd is that they have other uses that don't depend on "man I need a lot of favoritism on me or else I'm pointless."

meh, I always figured a little bit of favouritism is fine for upper mid. A speedwing is no more than we give Titania or Haar to get them better offence. It has higher cost than a crown for Gatrie or adept for Mia, a lot higher in fact, but he's the bottom of upper mid, so who cares? Paragon in one chapter I'm not even sure is necessary. I kinda figure it is, though, just based on how 20/1 is 27.4 spd with a wing and he doesn't have Mia's killrate for getting levels in part 3, nor does he get her enemy phase exposure if we give them both earth, since he still won't have super avo. Still, it'll be enough for generals and he just needs a level or two for doubling all the 24 spd guys. And there are a lot of generals in 4-1. He'll need 30/31 though for most doubling in 4-4, and even if he goes after laguz in 4-5 he needs about the same.

Level 7 isn't out of the question for halfway through those chapters, though.

He's gonna be borderline on paladins throughout part 3, even with a wing. But he'll have an easy enough time on generals and mages. At least after a few chapters.

A paragon makes it quicker for doubling, but paragon is what it takes to make him great, without it he is still upper mid material, I think. Considering level 20/9 gives him 31 speed and he just needs a few levels in 4-E-1 to double more things in 4-E-2, then he's close to 34 and can actually get there, I'd say his part 4 is rather good. Again, not anything more than upper mid.

Mordy can obviously make himself useful as a tank. Hell, at base level, steel poleaxe warriors in 4-P have issues 3rounding him, and that's WITH them doubling him. liek, half the paladins in 4-P don't even break double digit damage on him, and that's assuming they actually double him, which is not always happening because they have 21-22 AS with a *few* at 23 (srsly, stop failing loladins). Which means you can pretty much use him as a filler tank anytime you want, and if you ever use him as a serious unit you can expect massive rapage from just throwing resolve on him.

Yes, yes, mordy's a fine tank. But he's got 38 mt and no doubling. He's 3HKO on stuff, and that means that after 1 hit anyone who is borderline 2RKOing won't be able to finish stuff off. When you've got many other tanks that can cause more damage, some of whom even kill from time to time or always, why let Mordy do it?

Resolve is favouritism. Mordy uses it well, but I'm not sure if it's leagues better than others. If you can prove that the gap between him and anybody else for taking resolve is similar to the gap between Gatrie and others for taking the crown, then I'll assume that Mordy with resolve isn't similar favouritism to Boyd with a speedwing.

Naesala doesn't even really need SS Strike. His tear activation rate is already uber (60+ at neutral bio). And he has stuff like formshift/flying/canto.

Yeah, his tear is pretty awesome. 60.31% at bad bio, and his bio never goes to worst. Pretty nuts.

Still, 47 mt is 3HKO on some halbs and warriors, generals as early as 4-4, though one pt of str fixes this and he wouldn't have SS anyway. Snipers join the party in 4-E-1, and he needs 2pts of str through levels to ORKO them without SS. Whites are borderline 3HKO, though str points mean it is a clean 3HKO, though some other royals have issues with whites, too, and Naesala has issues with them even with SS.

And halbs die in 4-E-2 vs. SS, obviously snipers do, too. Warriors have 1hp left, but that's vs. base level Naesala, so one pt of str means they die.

Basically, since 100% is better than not, SS helps in 4-E-2, and to get 80 attacks while tearing 42% of the time on his first hit means a lot of kills. Especially in 3 chapters.

Oh, it helps to 100% ORKO spirits on cover tiles in 4-E-4, as well. Not getting there without 55 mt, which requires SS. Based on the stats someone gave, 40hp and 25def fire spirits on a cover tile means 55mt for a clean ORKO. 53 mt can be achieved with 3 str and S strike, which should work on the other spirits. Vykan gave lower def stats, but he was basing it off the base stats on the site and calculations, the other guy a few pages back actually loaded the game and looked. I suppose I could look at 4-E-5 to see, but I don't feel like it.

Still, if you don't care about SS, or the extra 3 str from 6 or 7 levels, then he doesn't need a vast number of kills, so there would then be no favouritism for Naesala.

A person like Oscar DOES double (just doubles the slow enemies, but at least he doubles some things, unlike boyd, who has serious issues doubling the slowest generals in part 3 even after we throw a speedwing on him). Throw on top of that earth affinity for massive avoid and canto.

Considering the levels you are willing to give Aran, 1 level per chapter for Boyd seems rational. Some chapters are quicker than others, but it should average out. For simplicity, I'll assume level 9 for 3-1, level 10 for 3-2, and so on, and the 3-9 speedwing, accessible in 3-11, then the 3-2 speedwing. Both of which I'll compare to Oscar, who starts 4 levels above Boyd so I'll go with 8 levels in 11 chapters, and give him level 13 for 3-2, 14 for 3-3, 15 for 3-5, 16 for 3-7, 17 for 3-10, 18 for 3-11, and 19 for 3-E. Voice your complaints with numbers and calculations and details if you think the levels I'm using are bad. And keep in mind Boyd should be given more levels anyway.

Boyd

18 in 3-P

18.45 in 3-1

18.9 in 3-2, or 20.9

19.35 in 3-3, or 21.35

19.8 in 3-4, or 21.8

20.25 in 3-5, or 22.25

20.7 in 3-7, or 22.7

21.15 in 3-8, or 23.15

21.6 in 3-10, or 23.6

24.05 in 3-11

24.5 in 3-E

Oscar

21 in 3-P and 3-1

21.6 in 3-2

22.2 in 3-3 and 3-4

22.8 in 3-5

23.4 in 3-7 and 3-8

24 in 3-10, 3-11, and 3-E.

So, they are tied in 3-11 and 3-E, and with an early wing Boyd is even in 3-8. Anything Oscar doubles, so will Boyd, and Boyd will kill it while Oscar likely won't.

Aside from that, 24 vs. 23 in 3-10 means blade paladins and lance paladins and 2 out of 3 dragon masters. Boyd however will kill the axe paladin and Oscar won't, while Oscar does 22str + 15 mt = 37 mt, which leaves the things he doubles with ~6 hp, or 2 hp with an atk support. Boyd leaves them with 17 hp. So Oscar makes it so anyone can kill it, Boyd leaves it so many can kill it, though some like Neph might take a counter, depending on level.

Boyd wins vs. everything else because of more damage. Oscar has advantages, like durability and canto and mov, but I'm not trying to argue him down or Boyd up, just that Oscar has flaws.

Before 3-8 I won't bother with, simply because Boyd is at worst a neutral, and Oscar has issues in 3-4 and 3-7 anyway. I've left out a few things, but nothing I think is major enough to change things a lot. Boyd has a better endgame since 34 speed is actually attainable, and with a wing won't be doubling like Neph and Ike or anything, but starts 3rd tier with 1 more speed than Oscar thanks to the wing, and his growth is only .15 lower, so Oscar needs to be maintain a 2 level lead at first just to have Boyd's speed, and after each get 7 levels then Oscar can be the same level and have the same spd, so a level lead there means a spd lead, but then Oscar caps at 32 and can't even double Warriors in endgame.

Again, not arguing either in either direction. Sure, I'd like to see Neph > Oscar, but I don't feel like talking about it and it has nothing to do with Boyd.

And so on.

I don't see how Boyd ISN'T a step below these people.

And I don't see how Boyd's flaws are so much worse than theirs that he isn't upper mid material.

As for the guy doing Mist vs Rhys...

You're seriously overestimating their level. 20/20/1 at 4-1? Wut? Our guys like Boyd have trouble reaching that, and Mist/Rhys start at a much lower level. Rhys, in fact, would need 1.64 levels per chapter. That's 14 mends. That's a ridiculous amount. Even once physics can be stolen, that's 7 physics a chapter, which means within 2 chapters your physic is almost broken.

They can kill stuff, you know. I managed to get Mist to --/20 by 4-4, and gave her the holy crown. No paragon, no special feeding. Obviously she killed stuff that others weakened, but since they were weakening it anyway and other people had other things to do, she killed those weak things. Sometimes I even gave her a bit of enemy phase just cause I could and it was fun. What I mean by no special feeding is I generally didn't have someone run up on player phase to an enemy and use a weaker weapon so Mist could kill it, unless they were way overleveled anyway and it was more valuable for Mist to kill it than the guy. Usually she just fed off things left over enemy phase. It is possible this wouldn't have been doable without the transfer, but I don't think so.

Still, I kinda have to agree with overestimating their level, what with 20/20/1 by 4-1 and all. There may have been times it would've been more efficient for me to set up a different pattern that would not have involved Mist killing, and I only managed level 20 by 4-4. Same would go for Rhys, only he can't be put in as many dangerous situations but needs fewer levels. So he is likely in the same boat as her.

[charmander6000]

I agree with Aran > Jill. Until she can double Aran is out damaging her and out defending. She'll start doubling tigers by 3-6 though won't be able to double cats because of her speed cap. Extra move and canto is nice though. Jill wins during part 4, though not by enough to offset Aran winning 7 chapters and existing for 4 (includes 1-8) by himself.

[_____]

You can still have Mist promoted easily by 4-1, and she doesn't need to compete for the item either. Rhys probably will need competition for the master crown.

they're both pretty easy to kill early on... I think Mist moreso.

If you want to give her that Holy Crown regardless of whatever level she's at, I guess. She'll still suck at combat.

Ward - doesn't exist until 4-E

Torch - No FoW until 4-1 (3-P and 3-1 have no access to the staff at all), and that's the only chapter

Unlock - Nothing to use it on until 4-4. Literally.

I said that I was wrong. No need to hammer that in.

Try everyone. By 3-11 we can easily have some of our tier 2 units like Mia, Nephenee, Boyd, etc. at or near level 20. 3-11 and 3-E is where I usually promote most of my team.

Rhys arguably gains more than any of those characters when he promotes, as he puts his +2 speed to much better use than any of them. Going from being ORKO'd to 2RKO'd >>> Going from 1-2RKOing to 1RKOing

15? From what? Torch is all that gives 15 experience.

It was just a general number. I meant in that range.

His damage after early part 3 starts getting pretty awful, since Light magic is weak and he's very close to his Mag cap. His chip damage becomes incredibly small. Plus, he's usually healing anyway.

awful damage output what

Assuming Rhys is only level 8 by 3-10, an underleveled Rhys, by the way...

Level 8 Rhys (A Boyd) w/Ellight: 33 ATK, 153 Hit, 15 AS, 8critbutwhocares

He 3RKOs all Halberdiers.

He 2RKOs both Warriors.

He 2RKOs Swordmasters.

He 2RKOs the Crossbow Sniper and leaves the other Sniper with 1 HP.

2RKOs Lance Paladins.

'' '' Axe Paladins.

'' '' Blade Paladins.

2RKOs the level 13 Bow Paladins and 3RKOs the level 14 Bow Paladins.

3RKOs all Generals.

2RKOs all DragonKnights.

Bishops tink him, so who cares about damage output?

Now, let's look at an overleveled Mist.

Level 11 Mist (A Mordecai) w/ Florette: 27 ATK, 151 Hit, 20 AS, 24 Crit

Mist 7RKOs the weaker Halberdiers, and 8RKOs the stronger Halberdiers.

4RKO on the weaker Warriors, 5RKO on the stronger Warriors.

4RKO on the Swordmasters.

6RKO on the 41 HP Sniper, 5RKO on the other.

6RKO on Lance Paladins.

5RKO on all Axe Paladins.

6RKOs the Blade Paladins.

41-42RKO on all Generals, lolololol.

9RKOs all Dragon Masters.

So, if Rhys' damage output is "awful", Mist should just go back to picking apples, since she has no right to be on a battlefield.

What about support advantages? Water >>>> Fire.

">>>>" is a huge overstatement. Water is better than Fire, but both give full attack, which both Mist and Rhys want.

3-5 linear? The other two I can give you, but in what world is 3-5 linear? Enemies come at you from 3 directions. And another problem with supporting healers together is that they don't really make use of it because they, you know, heal. It's a total waste of Mist's affinity.

You can very easily just stay inside of the topmost platform and block off the stairs/gaps. In fact, this is a much better strategy for Rhys, since all enemies now have -50 accuracy against him, and he can just 2RKO them like he always has.

And when you drop one or the other (since it's unlikely to use both longterm) you've left one supportless. Amazing.

We are comparing the two. We're assuming both are being used. Ergo, neither will be dropped.

When is Rhys getting BEXP? When he caps his Mag (I assume so, since Res caps at 11, which is the level you put him at)? If so, HP, Luck, and Res all take precedence over Spd, and Skl is tied. He'll almost definitely gain Luck and Res over others (Luck is 60%, while HP, the next highest, is 40%. lolRes is 75%), and then being kinda nice to him he has a 1/3 chance of getting Spd for the next one (It's nice because HP beats it and Str and Def might go up as well) until Res caps in 2-3 levels, in which case his chance for Spd increases a bit, but at this point no one cares because he's already gotten his share of BEXP and it would take too much more to actually get him to decent Spd. By this method, he'll have 17 (18 if he's lucky) Spd at level 11. He's not getting doubled by everything, that's true enough, but he still has worse overall durability because a few enemies do double him and Mist w/ a defense support might actually be getting 3RKOd by some of the weaker enemies. Even just a Dracoshield or Seraph Robe (possibly without the defense support) can turn a lot of 2RKOs into 3. Rhys isn't so lucky.

I was unclear. I was saying that Rhys was level 11 prior to recieving his cut of the BEXP. By the way, giving Rhys 3 levels of BEXP is only giving him 7% of your total BEXP count, so he can easily grab a lot more, but I didn't feel like arguing that. Anyway, that changes your comparison a lot. Res is already capped, so the likelihood of Rhys gaining speed has increased a lot. I'm too lazy to redo the numbers, but the 43/48 enemies, barring the boss, not doubling Rhys if he gets up to 18 speed is totally accurate. If he somehow gets 19 speed because you gave him some extra BEXP (Again, he's only using 7% of your BEXP with only 3 levels, so he can grab more; hell, we were talking about giving Ulki 50%~ of our BEXP), he's now avoiding being doubled by everything that isn't the boss. That's pretty damn awesome.

As for offense, he's still borderline 3RKOing everything with a full support, and not even borderline on what his offense might have been nice against, Generals. Rhys isn't there for offense.

Generals actually hate Mages in this game. They have the highest res of any physical unit. Nice try, but when you look at the 10 billion Paladins in this chapter, you'll see he's cleanly 2RKOing them.

Again, I am not saying Rhys > Mist, though it does seem VERY close. I am merely saying that a nearly tier-wide gap between them is uncalled for. I could see Rhys going above the CRKs and Mist at around Muarim-level, under Tauroneo, for sure.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Ninji

[charmander6000]

Rhys arguably gains more than any of those characters when he promotes, as he puts his +2 speed to much better use than any of them. Going from being ORKO'd to 2RKO'd >>> Going from 1-2RKOing to 1RKOing

I disagree. Being able to survive an extra hit is worth much less when you're Rhys. The guy shouldn't be facing attacks from the enemy while units such as Boyd can now ORKO reliably and have the defense/avoid to do it. Clearing out the map much faster is much better than having a few extra options for another unit.

[_____]

I disagree. Being able to survive an extra hit is worth much less when you're Rhys. The guy shouldn't be facing attacks from the enemy while units such as Boyd can now ORKO reliably and have the defense/avoid to do it. Clearing out the map much faster is much better than having a few extra options for another unit.

Boyd, however, had options pre-promotion that would allow him to 1RKO, options that are much less expensive and sought after than a Master Crown or a Speedwing (another item that would help Rhys out), such as the Killer Axe. Giving him a Master Crown when this is available seems a bit ridiculous.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Ninji

[Interceptor]

According to int's logic [...]

You are not in a position to speak to my logic, since it's abundantly clear that you don't understand it at all. dondon articulated my point perfectly, to the point where I have basically nothing to add to his posts without being redundant. Cynthia understood where I was coming from, and also correctly pointed out that you ignored points that were devastating to your argument. Red Fox appears to have been duped by your straw man, which I hope is only a temporary lapse, since agreeing with a tangent doesn't make it any less of one.

My firefox literally crashed when I read this

Free advice from your best friend across the pond: try switching to a browser that isn't a bloated, bug-riddled, memory-hogging piece of shit.

[charmander6000]

Boyd, however, had options pre-promotion that would allow him to 1RKO, options that are much less expensive and sought after than a Master Crown or a Speedwing (another item that would help Rhys out), such as the Killer Axe. Giving him a Master Crown when this is available seems a bit ridiculous.

Not really the only thing that would help him ORKO is the killer axe. First of all we only get two and one of them has to be bought until 3-E which is enough for Boyd since he doesn't double. Next the activation is only between 30-40% plus bonds so it's not like he's as reliable as Mia with adept. Also with the low mt of the killer axe Boyd might not even get the kill with a crit. Boyd with a master crown/speed wing eliminates the chance while again Rhys isn't doing so much.

[Shuuda]

Just a reminder that I will not tolerate inappropriate insults towards other members. While I respect the fact that a debate can be intense and people should not have to nice to each other, I will not hesitate to hand out warns to any posts to anyone who flames someone else from here on.

[Interceptor]

Not really the only thing that would help him ORKO is the killer axe. First of all we only get two and one of them has to be bought until 3-E which is enough for Boyd since he doesn't double. Next the activation is only between 30-40% plus bonds so it's not like he's as reliable as Mia with adept. Also with the low mt of the killer axe Boyd might not even get the kill with a crit. Boyd with a master crown/speed wing eliminates the chance while again Rhys isn't doing so much.

First of all, we don't get two Killer Axes, we get three: there are two from the Part 2 chapters that can be bought and ferried over to the GMs.

Second of all, there is no reason why Boyd cannot be using a crit-forge to ORKO occasionally. Not that the GMs are hurting for money or anything, but forged axes are exceptionally cheap compared to sword or lances, and Boyd can use his Bonds with Oscar/Rolf to increase his chance to crit to something that's not a silly small percentage. The nice thing about a forge is that he is guaranteed to get a kill on a crit, as well as being still 2RKO on most non-generals even when he fails to ORKO (so it doesn't hurt him in other places).

[_____]

Not really the only thing that would help him ORKO is the killer axe. First of all we only get two and one of them has to be bought until 3-E which is enough for Boyd since he doesn't double. Next the activation is only between 30-40% plus bonds so it's not like he's as reliable as Mia with adept. Also with the low mt of the killer axe Boyd might not even get the kill with a crit. Boyd with a master crown/speed wing eliminates the chance while again Rhys isn't doing so much.

First of all, we don't get two Killer Axes, we get three: there are two from the Part 2 chapters that can be bought and ferried over to the GMs.

Second of all, there is no reason why Boyd cannot be using a crit-forge to ORKO occasionally. Not that the GMs are hurting for money or anything, but forged axes are exceptionally cheap compared to sword or lances, and Boyd can use his Bonds with Oscar/Rolf to increase his chance to crit to something that's not a silly small percentage. The nice thing about a forge is that he is guaranteed to get a kill on a crit, as well as being still 2RKO on most non-generals even when he fails to ORKO (so it doesn't hurt him in other places).

Pretty much what Interceptor said, and while a Master Crown may totally eliminate those problems from Boyd, they are nowhere near as large as going from 1RKO'd to 2RKO'd, which is a fairly significant jump, and being able to have an enemy phase, no matter how limited it may be.

[Zkirsche]

Because it was skipped for Hawks vs Gatrie:

Why is Leanne so high? Better than Titania? I must ask how. I'd go as far to say that Zihark/Nolan is better than her.

I also fail to see why there's such a gap between them. Both have fail offence and durability and in all honesty, i can't see what Mist does to get her better than Calill that Rhys doesn't. Mov I guess? Still, that shouldn't be enougth to warrant a whole tier difference.

even if you somehow get him a level in 1-3,

He needs 4 kills and 4 attacks to do that, or 3 kills and 8 attacks. Heck, you could bexp him to 99 exp then have him throw a javelin at a tiger and level up. Hard? No.

Edited July 14, 2009 by kirsche

[grandjackal]

Couple things I wish to bring up, just to promote discussion. I only say this, because I suck debating RD.

Titania>Sothe?

Taur>Heather?

Bastian>Danved?

[-Cynthia-]

Accidently hit the post button in the middle of this.

First off, neither unit really doubles in part 1. Jill has 15 base AS while 1-6-1 enemies have AS ranging from 12-17, with the exception of a couple knights and steel lance!peggies. In 1-6-2 she’s under a similar predicament, though if she levelled up she has a 65% chance of additionally doubling a fighter, some mages and some extra cavs. In 1-7 the enemies jump to 13+ AS, so now Jill needs 3 levels just to double like 1/5 of the enemies here. Then she disappears in 1-8, and now she doubles basically nothing in 1-E (even knights have 14+ AS now lawl).

Keep in mind that Jill can also use the Hammer to kill Generals, Aran can't use a Horseslayer to kill Paladins because we don't hvae one lol. Also while Jill is borderline doubling, Aran is boderline doubled by many opponents, if he gets even slightly Spd screwed his durability issues are far worse than Jill's. Note than Aran's pretty much always doubled by SM's/Cats, who do have non-negligible crit rates on him.

I’m not sure what kind of level to put Aran in 1-6-1 so I’ll just compare 2 Arans to Jill.

[1.4 levels / chapter]

Aran lv 11 (forged iron lance, C Nolan): 26 hp, 25 atk, 11 AS, 15 def, 4 res, 39 avo

[2 levels / chapter]

Aran lv 13 (forged iron lance, C Nolan): 27 hp, 26.5 atk, 12 AS, 16 def, 5 res, 42 avo

Jill lv 14 (forged iron axe): 24 hp, 24 atk, 15 AS, 13 def, 3 res, 44 avo

In both comparisons Aran wins durability by a reasonable margin. Pit them both against a 20 atk sword knight in 1-6-2: Aran is 6-7HKOed while Jill is 4HKOed. Similarly, Aran can take an extra hit in many other cases, which is obviously important since Jill gets 2-3HKOed by a scary number of enemies.

Jill also wins offense by a reasonable margin, since she has the ability to double some things and thus be ORKOing to Aran''s 2RKOing, etc.

Defensively though, Aran really pulls ahead. A 30 atk fighter only manages a 4HKO while 2HKOing Jill. The same applies to a couple 31 atk enemies (steel greatlance!soldier, steel blade!armor, steel longbow!archer, etc). Against weaker enemies, Aran’s HKO lead is even bigger. A myrmidon will only do 1 damage to him while 5HKOing Jill. Or take a javelin!soldier who does 3 damage to Aran (a 10HKO) as opposed to 4HKOing Jill.

While this is true, Jill can become much better with just a few resources. We could give her a Seraph Robe, turning her 2HKOs into 3HKOs and so on. We could also just toss Jill a Seal before 1-E, this increases her durability and increases her offense and she now doubles more frequently and at least 2RKOs everything. Aran's AS issues can't be fixed nearly as easily, and he'll never have Jill's flying utility.

Jumping to 3-6:

Aran lv 20/2 (FSL, A Nolan): 33 hp, 36.5 atk, 16 AS, 24 def, 73 avo

Jill lv 20/2 (FSA, B Volug): 29.5 hp, 32 atk, 21 AS, 18 def, 80 avo

Offensively, Jill doubles tigers for 22-26 damage while Aran single hits them for 15-17. However, he has the same damage gap in his favor against cats, so they might as well be tied.

Most of the team has more issues with the tigers than the cats, so I would argue that lead is more important. Also if we throw in Beastfoe, Jill can blick cats/tigers, Aran only can blick cats. Jill can even go Brave Axe/Beastfoe to kill Tigers without taking a counter.

Defensively, Aran takes 0-14 damage (3+HKO) while Jill takes 4-13 (3-8HKO). However, if Aran manages to stop getting doubled by cats at some point in the chapter, he’ll be faring much better against them than Jill is. As for tigers, Aran takes 8-17 damage (2-5HKO), though the 41 atk tigers quit 2HKOing him after just another point of def or 2 points of hp. Jill, on the other hand, gets 3HKOed by the lone A strike tiger and is 2HKOed by the rest.

What's with these weird damage ranges? Aran is generally being 2HKOd by most of the tigers on the map, though he will eventually grow out of this. Jill can also escape 2HKOs from tigers with some favoritism, a Seraph Robe and a Dracoshield/Def transfer will do it. Jill is generally doing better durably against Cats, Aran doesn't escape being doubled by them until 20/10.

Now we arrive in part 4 and neither unit is really that useful. A 20/16 Jill only has 22 str and 72 base hit, so giving her something like a silver poleax gives her 40 atk/132 hit. That only 2 rounds a 4-P halberdier at 71 display hit. Then even the loladins manage to 4-5HKO her, though their hit rates won’t be too impressive (ranging from 30-40ish display). Looking further into the future, we kind of need to crown her so that she can uncap her spd, otherwise she won’t double consistently in 4-3. But then that would hurt her already flimsy strength. A 20/17/4 Jill w/ a forged silver would only manage 46 atk, which is 3+HKO on basically anything. Oh yeah, and for Jill to even double armors in 4-E-1, she needs to have reached third tier lv 7 or higher. Getting her to the magic 34 AS requires her to be as high as third tier lv 12, which probably won’t happen without paragon/BEXP/wtv.

In general if we're using any DB units part 4, they're probably going to be entitled to some favoritism (Paragon/BEXP), since they use it better than most other characters due to being underleveled. Jill actually grows into a decent unit (doubles with good Atk, Mov/Canto/flight), while Aran really doesn't, his AS is just too low to salvage. Note that Jill can go the GMs to become more prepared for Part 4, Aran doesn't have this option.

Now I did overlook Jill’s mobility in all this, but remember that her poor durability throughout the game limits how well she can actually use it. Moreover, 1-7, 1-E, 3-13 and possibly 4-4 reduce her move advantage to a free trip up a ledge and canto. I might have inflated either unit’s level along the way, but I’m not a really good judge of that since I don’t generally waste my time with tier 1 units on HM. Regardless, Aran clearly survives hits better at points where you’re starving for decent tanks, whereas Jill’s offensive lead on Aran is never quite as remarkable.

Jill's mobility advantage comes in handy in a lot of spots. 1-6-1 she's the only one who can actually fight the Peg Knights on the ledges, important since this is a route map. 1-6-2 she's the only one with enough Mov to help Volug save Fiona and crew, saving us a lot of BEXP. We could also use Jill to drop Tauroneo near the boss and kill him, saving us a lot of turns if we desire. You already mentioned ledges. In 3-6 she doesn't have to hold a position like most, she's the only one not restricted by the swamp, she can go out, kill a laguz and Canto back, making her durability less of an issuel. The same strategy of go out, kill something, Canto back works well for 3-12 and 3-13 too. Jill really doesn't have a reason to go Ike's route, flying utility matters on 4-3 and 4-5 giving Jill an advantange.

I just want to point out how much transfers help Jill. Jill was a top tier character in PoR, so she had a high chance to be played and reach 20/20. With the help of bands, Jill has a fair chance to cap Str,Spd, and Def, which obviously act like free stat boosters.

Eh overall I'd say that Aran and Jill are basically tied for Parts 1 and 3-- Aran's durability lead as opposed to Jill's offense and mobility leads, but then Jill wins Part 4 by quite a bit.

Edited July 14, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Interceptor]

Couple things I wish to bring up, just to promote discussion. I only say this, because I suck debating RD.

My quick, unresearched opinions:

Titania>Sothe?

Most of High is better than Sothe. He is too far up. It's nice that he is god-mode in 1-2 through 1-5 or so, but his martial stats are already starting to falter by the time that 1-6 lands, his Part 3 is poor, and his Part 4 is just awful outside of playing Indiana Jones and digging up ancient artifacts in 4-3.

Taur>Heather?

Most awkward comparison ever. Thief utility vs. short, lopsided availbility.

Bastian>Danved?

I don't know who would win, but that might be a worthy effort.