Interceptor Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 I think that any and all comparisons between a DB member and someone else are a fool's game until some sort of useful way to do a cross-comparison is agreed upon. I don't see how one can adjudicate Aran vs. Mordecai when you can't even do Aran vs. Boyd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 I think that any and all comparisons between a DB member and someone else are a fool's game until some sort of useful way to do a cross-comparison is agreed upon. I don't see how one can adjudicate Aran vs. Mordecai when you can't even do Aran vs. Boyd. I suppose one could try to assign numerical values to their performance based on what "place" they're in(best unit, 2nd best etc.) for any given chapter for when they're on seperate teams. I would give more leeway to the GMs than the DB though, since they have larger chapters and more EXP to go around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 (edited) A thought occured... Wouldn't basically every laguz want Resolve? Kyza and Mordy certainly give a damn. Reasons why I think they get it over others. - Easiest to get to resolve health - Laguz wize, Volug just flat out doesn't need it, he has no trouble doubling. - Same with the hawks, except they're harder to get to resolve health due to avoid, though unless you did something stupid like have them get attacked by crossbows... - Lethe and Lyre are lol offensively, all they do is become harder to hit. - Ranulf's a cool guy, he'd hardly care. - Kyza and Mordy when they double hit quite a bit harder than most. Well...Mordy does anyways. This I brought up because I was thinking of part 4, specifically endgame. Who the hell else cares about resolve at that point? Only other people I can think of are people with shit speed caps, but there are only a few I can think of as otherwise, some have problems. - Paladins have Sol, can be a problem staying in resolve - Mages in general seem to have shit for speed, and the only ones who could pull off anything with resolve are like the fire mages. Still though, they are still fragile. Is it worth the range offense? - Generals tend to have a hard time getting to resolve in the first place. At least once they're there, they have an easy time staying there. - Anyone else better have amazing luck to go with it, otherwise they're gonna be easy to hit and killed under resolve. Only possible person I can think of is like...Danved. So yeah, perhaps those with below 34 speed caps aren't in the total crapper. Edited July 20, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 I suppose one could try to assign numerical values to their performance based on what "place" they're in(best unit, 2nd best etc.) for any given chapter for when they're on seperate teams. I would give more leeway to the GMs than the DB though, since they have larger chapters and more EXP to go around. Leeway is the problem. The DB has fewer units than the GMs, and arguably the gap between the best and the worst is greater (is there any gap in this game wider than Fiona vs. Nailah?). Giving people points for "places" is going to skew the DB members pretty high. All you have to do to prove that is just look at someone like Boyd, who is "worse" than like 7+ other fighters in 3-2. If you look at 7th "worst" in some of the DB chapters, the deployments are so small that it ends up being a unit like Leonardo or even Meg. I don't think that anyone would argue one of those units over Boyd. So yeah, perhaps those with below 34 speed caps aren't in the total crapper. They are still pretty far in the crapper, since Mantle is going to negate the effect of Resolve, aka removes a huge portion of the reason to be getting over 33 SPD in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 They are still pretty far in the crapper, since Mantle is going to negate the effect of Resolve, aka removes a huge portion of the reason to be getting over 33 SPD in the first place. ....Forgot about Mantle x.x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybee Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 unless you did something stupid like have them get attacked by crossbows... Go Go Wrath spamming! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vykan12 Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Bump? Gareth > Lehran Blood tide can be used multiple times per turn, Lehran's attacking/healing can only be used once. Twice the availability too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybee Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 (edited) Bump? Gareth > Lehran Blood tide can be used multiple times per turn, Lehran's attacking/healing can only be used once. Twice the availability too. The extra chapter of avilability is 4-E-4, an incredibly short map. Though I also agree with Gareth > Lehran. South: Sothe goes there, kills something. Nolan and Laura follow him (she'll be keeping Nolan alive for the remainder of the chapter).North: Everyone with a 2-range attack, except for your intended tank, focus fires on the leftmost breakable wall until it falls apart. Now you move Eddie your tank into that corridor, one space east of the elbow joint. Why are we moving to that one space? Two reasons: the first thing you'll notice is that there are two spaces for indirects to attack, here: south ofthe joint through the window, and east of Eddie your tank in the hallway. The second reason is because of what happens when you hit "End Turn"... Enemy Phase: the boss in the northwest corner moves next to Eddie your tank, and stands there, untransformed. I am not shitting you, this actually happens. Try it. Turn 2: lol, the boss gets rocked. Ilyana doubles this thing because it's untransformed, and does like 70% of its health in one shot because it has like no RES whatsoever. She has like a 10-20% chance of just ORKO'ing it because of a crit. If she doesn't ORKO, Micaiah can easily finish it off, and with the right forge Eddie your tank may also be able to finish it off, uncountered. Congratulations, you've now killed the second biggest threat in the entire chapter, without taking a single point of damage, and now half of the laguz in the level just lost 5avo/5hit because their an authority star just died. Meanwhile, Sothe is obliterating everything that looks at him, and Nolan can 2HKO cats and 3HKO tigers with his sweet-ass forge, so he's doing fine (borderline on cats if he gets STR-screwed, but Leo support can fix that) and the south + left/right sides are as good as toast. Turn 2 Enemy Phase has someone run up and try to avenge the death of their Dear Leader in the north. If your tank is Aran, there's a 1-4% chance that you just wasted your time and will have to restart the chapter, and if your tank is Eddie, the enemy is probably going to hurt him enough to put Micaiah in Wrath range when she Sacrifices on him next turn. The turns after this depend on RNG factors, but the general idea is that you keep Eddie your tank rooted to that spot, since Micaiah/Ilyana turn it into a death zone, and the tank staying alive only requires popping a self-heal while this murder-fest happens. Meanwhile, Sothe and Nolan clean up the sides and pick up items as needed. You're all welcome. Please feel free to use this strategy on your next HM run, and be in awe of how easy you make this chapter. Awesome. I'll use this as soon as I clear the fuck that is 1-3. Edited July 25, 2009 by Joshybear25 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vykan12 Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 The extra chapter of avilability is 4-E-4, an incredibly short map. Every map in 4-E except 4-E-1 and maybe 4-E-3 are incredibly short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 4-E-1 has the potential to only last a couple turns though. Like 3-4 on normal mode, so I imagine around one or two more turns in hard mode. It's a small map and many enemies are crammed in there so there's likely to be a shitload of enemy phase action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybee Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 4-E-1: ~5-7 turns Everything else in endgame: 2 turns, 1 for 4-E-2 if Levail got Meteored and Flared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 (edited) Blood tide can be used multiple times per turn, Lehran's attacking/healing can only be used once. Twice the availability too. I don't think that Gareth's availbility lead is meaningful, since he can't do a whole hell of a lot in 4-E-4. Lehran is pretty decisive with his staff, since it allows me to use Fortify more often in the other chapters, frees up the Fortify healer to attack in 4-E-5, and once Lehran gets to a corner aura he does pretty significant damage to it with a blessed tome that you'd trade him. Awesome. I'll use this as soon as I clear the fuck that is 1-3. I have a cheese strategy for that chapter, too. If you use Direct on just the right spot, Kurth blocks one of the chokes for you and attracts an archer on the other side of the wall. He's a brick house in 1-3 and never dies (lol he's more durable han Sothe), so it takes a lot of pressure off units like Nolan. Try it out if you are having difficulty. IIRC, the Direct spot is 2 east and one south of the tree. Aimee always moves first, but Kurth does not get slowed down by thickets, so you wind up with him blocking the spot. Just Halt after that and he's good until you need him to go somewhere else (rescue Aimee w/someone if you want to use Direct to put him anywhere you want) or escape the chapter. Edited July 26, 2009 by Interceptor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybee Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 (edited) Damn, I just realised Kurth was there. I was trying to tank with Sothe and Nolan but Nolan can't take 3 hits so I always got stuck with the archer. Edited July 27, 2009 by Joshybear25 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Time to bring up a valid point unlike the previous post I made. Lehran's staff utility seems to be okay, maybe with a Physic or you could grant him an extra Fortify. You can give Sanaki an arms scroll, bless Rexflame, then give it to Lehran (arms scrolls are not only large in number but damn affordable in the battle preps of the final chapter) if you want to give him Magic. Gareth's power boost can be significant adding 10 damage to many of your people, but that doesn't make enough of a difference that Lehran's 28 or so (38 with nasir's boost) damage can't beat out. Besides, Gareth gets very very close to getting killed by Ashera transformed or not. And I'm sure he's a head target of the auras, so he really lacks durability. Besides, what help is Gareth in 4-E-4 that matters? You can easily beat that chapter in 2-3 turns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 (edited) That Lehran stuff does not work or otherwise make sense. Lehran cannot use elemental magic, only Light/Dark, so you're looking at Micaiah blessing Rexaura for him (or Pelleas doing Balberith in the 0.005% chance that he made it to Endgame), or perhaps Sanaki blessing Valaura or some forge. Also, Lehran's staff utility is pretty amazing, considering that he comes with an Ashera Staff on turn 1, which is three full heals for the entire army. Edited July 27, 2009 by Interceptor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybee Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 (edited) Miccy's definitely giving him Rexaura so she can spam Fortify, which Lehran can use if for some retard reason you ran out of Ashera staff uses. Edited July 27, 2009 by Joshybear25 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 That's what I meant. Whoops I forgot/didn't know Lehran doesn't use elemental magic. In which case, 12x2 (17x2?) damage with Rexaura? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interceptor Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 (edited) No. Lehran has 40 MAG, the auras have 30 RES, so even with Rexaura he's hitting for 22x2. Putting it another way, "the aura is half dead after Lehran attacked it". EDIT: also, Lehran basically does not know how to die. He has Mantle, which means he doesn't take counters from the Auras, and recovers 40 HP a turn. If the win condition for 4-E-5 was to have Lehran die, we might not even know what the ending looked like. Edited July 27, 2009 by Interceptor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 oh I was thinking auras with 30 res for some reason. :| I haven't played endgame in a while Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted July 29, 2009 Author Share Posted July 29, 2009 I'm tiering the Black Knight. I've put him just under Giffca for now. And I'm reconsidering removing Lehran from the list. Tell me what you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 I'm anticipating calls of "double standard!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybee Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) I'm tiering the Black Knight. I've put him just under Giffca for now. And I'm reconsidering removing Lehran from the list. Tell me what you think. I'm anticipating calls of "double standard!" Double Standard! Keep Lehran on that list. All characters deserve to be tiered, even people like Orson. Besides, not tiering Lehran would be the same as not tiering Athos. Edited July 29, 2009 by Joshybear25 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 Yeah, let's keep Lehran and the BK on. I agree with the BK's position. Did Sothe fall? Hmm, I'm not so sure about the positioning of Zihark/Nolan now, though comparisons are difficult due to it being GM's in the middle. I will say though, that Zihark and Nolan are worse in Part 1 than Sothe is, and neither is much better in Part 3. Sothe loses to them both Part 4, but I'm not so sure of the gap between them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted July 29, 2009 Author Share Posted July 29, 2009 Yeah, I don't remember how Sothe got so low...was I drunk? Maybe. I don't know if Zihark or Nolan should be > Sothe. Zihark is a tougher case, but for Nolan, Sothe cleanly beats him through all of part 1, and if you count 4-E as two chapters, that's already 56% of their shared availability. And then when you consider Nolan has to get his feet off the ground to be good in part 4, Nolan doesn't have a lot of time to be better than him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted July 29, 2009 Share Posted July 29, 2009 (edited) Yeah, I don't remember how Sothe got so low...was I drunk? Maybe. I don't know if Zihark or Nolan should be > Sothe. Zihark is a tougher case, but for Nolan, Sothe cleanly beats him through all of part 1, and if you count 4-E as two chapters, that's already 56% of their shared availability. And then when you consider Nolan has to get his feet off the ground to be good in part 4, Nolan doesn't have a lot of time to be better than him. Yeah here's how I see it: Sothe wins Part 1, because he beats Nolan in all the time they share together. He also beats Zihark, while they are roughly equal in combat, Sothe is uber useful from 1-2 to 1-5 and is much better in 1-E (lol chests). Then Part 3 rolls around. Nolan is the best defensively(although he needs some resources to avoid getting 2HKOd anyway), and Sothe is the best offensively due to Beast Killer. Zihark is definitely the best Part 4, though he will be somewhat underleveled. Nolan's Part 4 isn't so great actually, since he'll be very underleveled coming in, like 20/10 or something. He almost necessitates Paragon usage, and he's going to have trouble getting EXP as the start of Part 4. He has potential, but he's not wonderful. Sothe obviously has issues here, though he can find stuff in 4-3 and doesn't take up a slot for Endgame, so it isn't all bad. Peronally I think Zihark is fine where he is, but I would put Nolan below Sothe, possibly below Nailah as well. Edited July 29, 2009 by -Cynthia- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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