OMG it's a tier list

[grandjackal]

1 short of the speed value. So bexp + energy drop for 3-8.

This is if she doesn't get 2 levels in that time, though it IS a tad shady I suppose...

Yeah, especially after bexping spd, since she isn't getting levels from cexp in 3-4 and 3-7.

Still, though, I like using the 2-E energy drop on Heather and reset abusing 3 levels (1st turn of 2-2, 2nd turn of 2-E, 1st turn of 3-2) to steal the 3-2 bolting. As for tier list play, since that strategy is invalid I guess giving the 2-E drop to Lethe isn't so bad, or maybe the 3-5 drop, she'd only miss out on the extra damage in 3-4.

I don't see anyone else putting them to any better use.

Well, all it takes is like 5 adjacents in 2 chapters, and considering how tight 2-2 is you could probably get a couple there, but 2-E is so easy to get 5 it doesn't even matter. Mordy would much rather have a C something than nothing, though that means even more Laguz are in use. And Brom and Nephenee likely wouldn't want to wait. As for Mordy changing in 3-8, He gets 1 mt, 1 def/res, 18 hit from Lethe. I guess there isn't really a C that can top that, considering he doesn't have much use for avo nor would 3 avo make much difference. The A support in 3-11 he and Lethe could have gives 2, 2, 27, again likely better than any B could possibly be. The only competition would be water/fire/dark/light/thunder because even 23 avo likely wouldn't help him much, and Ike and Oscar have better candidates than a guy that has so much def that avo doesn't mean much anyway. So Mist and Titania are his only other fast supports that can give a 3 to either mt or def/res or both, but Titania would likely be better served by Oscar and as for Mist, I don't know.

Mist has a problem keeping up with him, so I'm glad you agree.

Anyway, I guess she doesn't have to be awesome to be okay, and if what you wrote up there is true then she seems okay enough.

Feel free to double check the numbers, though I assure you they're fine.

Yeah, her transformed durability is fine, I never complained about it. Swordmasters pull crit on her, but when it takes 2 or 3 crits to kill her anyway 3% isn't so bad anymore.

I figured I'd put it up anyways. Just in case anyone thought she had survival issues.

Hilariously enough, when I first started measuring, I was using her PoR stats, which had significantly less HP, 3 less luck and 3 less Res, and she STILL managed to be pretty tough. Just not as tough as Lethe 2.0

I don't mind 12 battles a chapter normally. In her case, if you plan to use her then she could eat grass and guard in 2-E which likely would give a fair number. 2-2 is only 7 turns long though so she'd need a fair amount of enemy phase exposure. It might be difficult but I could maybe see 8 or 9. 3-4 is annoying in that the enemies are mostly near the end and the laguz take care of some of the ones in the middle. You might be able to pull 8 or 9 combats there, I'm not sure. I could see S by 3-8 if you try hard enough, but I don't quite think 3-7 works.

Well for 2-2, she could always take an occasional untransformed shot I suppose, but point taken. Not much changes anyways, just she does better against generals and wyverns

Ah, but Volug starts with 11 str and 13 spd and doesn't need a spd point until part 4 for doubling purposes and pulls 35 mt with S for part 3 and 40 mt with SS for part 4. Volug's a bit different than she is. Energy drop plus bexping for spd plus S strike will greatly help her, though, considering 36 mt with C Mordy and S strike is pretty good for part 3. 3HKOing with 26 spd would actually make Lethe a candidate for Adept, though Ulki and Mia have more speed. Cat gauge is a pain, though, and I'm sad they took away the whole "early transform, mid transform, late transform" stuff they had in PoR. It was great.

As you can see, Volug didn't need much leveling and benefits more from just building up strike. By no means was I saying that Lethe's on Volug's level, just that Laguz who can double just fine only give a damn about strike level. So far, all my measurements are just base level Lethe with no bells or whistles.

As for moar laguz argument, well if you got a lot, here's how it could work. First wave grasses up. Second wave waits it out. First wave starts striking, while second wave charges up. When the first wave tires out, they retreat so the second wave can take the front. Not that I'm arguing a whole laguz team, but moar laguz in your army isn't as bad as you may think.

I don't know how much exp she gets for kills. If she's just getting 1, she isn't likely seeing more than 30 exp out of 3-4 and 3-7, probably less. If she at least gets something, it helps a lot to reduce the cost. And yes, bexp basically solves the spd thing, if we are willing to cough up the expense.

Let's review those numbers. Let's say you're right about those enemy counts on 2-2, though I disagree with only 9 for 2-E, considering the slugfest that chapter is. Let's just say she sees only 9 exp worth of action for 2-2, and 12 the others. 9+12+12=33, the other 12 for her part 3 debut. Guess you'd be right, but this is almost as if assuming she didn't kill anything. For part 2, I doubt she'd get more than 1 EXP for anything, but those numbers still seem a tad low to me. Anyone mind telling me exactly what level beorc Lethe would level as?

Yeah, if you just put it that way, she isn't entirely useless in part 3 so she could technically have more than part 2. I think that at least calls for someone giving a defence of Kyza as to why he should stay above her.

Hell, I could see Boyd having cause for worry. Another BEXP level, she's got healthy enough speed for part 4, and well on her way to SS.

Ludicrous to think she'd be level 30 by then, but if she is...;;>> Hell, level 31 she can double auras. Part 4 I might be hyping however...

I'm still bitter. I agree they got the shaft. Lethe and Ranulf were both pretty good in PoR.

Well she certainly isn't Low material.

Oh, and she has a bond support with Mordy anyways. I'm sure it means nothing aside from now SMs can't crit her, as I doubt 5 crit holds much weight in this game. Basically at base, she'd have 13+5 crit. She also has one with Lyre, but....Lol.

...It DOES give Lyre 21 crit though...;;>>

Edited August 3, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Vykan12]

I'm still bitter. I agree they got the shaft. Lethe and Ranulf were both pretty good in PoR.

Ranulf is still pretty good in RD. In fact he's better in 10 than in 9.

[Narga_Rocks]

Quick question though, which route you think would be best for Lethe?

didn't see this last time.

Uh, I assume you mean part 4? Hard to say. I'm thinking Micaiah. Her durability is decent enough and her avo isn't through the roof anyway, so it isn't like losing stars makes her able to face fewer enemies at once. As such, she can do pretty well against all that paladins, doubling most with 26 but if you keep giving her some bexp she might have 28 spd and be able to double all. Then in the desert when transformed she can move. 4-2 has thickets that she can run through, though, and 4-5 has more thickets and the laguz there should give her good experience she'll need. As for Ike, 4-1 she doesn't have any special benefits and there are a few 25 spd enemies so she would like 30 spd and might not get it. Same problem in 4-2 but there are fewer 25 spd guys there and she gets the whole running through thickets like they aren't there thing. As for 4-4, laguz are the only units that keep their 8 (vika) or 9 move and she basically has 8 move going up a single ledge, compared to a 7 move beorc that's left with 5 move, or a mage with 4 move, or an armor with 3. So she's got a bit of advantages each way, but overall I'd say she's best served going to the desert, next best is Tibarn, last is Ike.

This is if she doesn't get 2 levels in that time, though it IS a tad shady I suppose...

Precisely.

I don't see anyone else putting them to any better use.

I don't mind letting Oscar or Shinon get one, though either of them can just be slowplayed to get the str boost once they cap other things in tier 2.

Mist has a problem keeping up with him, so I'm glad you agree.

Well, in 3-4 I agree she has some issues, 3-7 thanks to river she does okay (moves 3 times farther than him, sometimes), but afterwards she falls short. Anyway, among Mordy's faster supports Lethe is probably best. As for the rest, it requires 7 adjacents in 2 chapters to raise a level every other chapter, but in return for the extra constraints you don't get A until part 4 anyway. As such, none of the other supports really give anything extra until then. In fact, taking fire (for example), he gets a C when he could have B Lethe, so he has the same mt/def/res boost but much less hit (does he need it? I think without he doesn't have 100, but I haven't checked) and might have 3 avo extra at best. He gets B when he could have A Lethe, so fire/dark gives 2 mt, 1 def/res when he could have 2 mt, 2 def/res. Same with thunder/light, except 1 mt, 2 def/res instead of the other way. Again, he's looking at losing 1 def/res or 1 mt in return for 5 avo max (Ike and Oscar stay away from Mordy). With B water, he gets the same mt/def/res as he'd have with Lethe, and misses out on the hit boost. With 156 hit rate without Lethe I don't know if he doesn't get 100% hit, though. At any rate, 183 hit certainly won't miss anything. Even 173 (his hit on worst bio) probably won't miss anything even if the enemy is on best bio. Chances are, without Lethe the difference is when on worst bio and the enemy on best he'll not get 100. I don't know if that's enough benefit to give up the possibility of having +3/3 in part 4, but maybe it is. However, his waters are Brom and Mist. An A Ulki wouldn't likely happen until 4-E-1, and he'd miss out on 2/2 in 3-11 and 3-E by doing that.

Anyway, back to fire/dark and light/thunder, in part 4 he's looking at 2/3 and 8 of some other thing, when he could have 2/2 and 27 hit. Since the 8 avo is basically meaningless for Mordecai, we are looking at fire and light. +1 mt for -19 hit, or +1 def for -19 hit. He could take dark or thunder, I suppose, but then it's basically +1 mt or +1 def for -27 hit and nothing in return. At this point, it's really more about helping his partner than helping himself. In part 4, it mostly comes down to how often the extra hit from Lethe causes 100% hit when he wouldn't have it otherwise. And I suppose since he was missing mt or def in 3-11 and 3-E that he could've had with Lethe it cancels the ones for the first part 4 chapters. So the +1mt or +1def only matters in 4-E, and at that point the extra hit% is also suddenly better.

All in all, I have to agree that if both Mordecai and Lethe are played Mordy's best support is Lethe.

(since you are already saying it, I'm not trying to convince you, just anyone else)

Feel free to double check the numbers, though I assure you they're fine.

I feel more like assuming it's fine. It would be a fair number of things to check.

I figured I'd put it up anyways. Just in case anyone thought she had survival issues.

Understood.

Hilariously enough, when I first started measuring, I was using her PoR stats, which had significantly less HP, 3 less luck and 3 less Res, and she STILL managed to be pretty tough. Just not as tough as Lethe 2.0

Just goes to show how good she was in PoR.

Well for 2-2, she could always take an occasional untransformed shot I suppose, but point taken. Not much changes anyways, just she does better against generals and wyverns

Might help her grow level, but won't help her grow strike since she won't double.

As you can see, Volug didn't need much leveling and benefits more from just building up strike. By no means was I saying that Lethe's on Volug's level, just that Laguz who can double just fine only give a damn about strike level. So far, all my measurements are just base level Lethe with no bells or whistles.

I still say Lethe would be much better if she was level 17 but kept her stats. Despite it meaning she'd be further from roaring.

As for moar laguz argument, well if you got a lot, here's how it could work. First wave grasses up. Second wave waits it out. First wave starts striking, while second wave charges up. When the first wave tires out, they retreat so the second wave can take the front. Not that I'm arguing a whole laguz team, but moar laguz in your army isn't as bad as you may think.

I see.

Let's review those numbers. Let's say you're right about those enemy counts on 2-2, though I disagree with only 9 for 2-E, considering the slugfest that chapter is. Let's just say she sees only 9 exp worth of action for 2-2, and 12 the others. 9+12+12=33, the other 12 for her part 3 debut. Guess you'd be right, but this is almost as if assuming she didn't kill anything. For part 2, I doubt she'd get more than 1 EXP for anything, but those numbers still seem a tad low to me.

Oh, I never said 9 for 2-E, just 2-2. For 2-E I'm going with 13, given how she can't be there from the beginning and since walling tends to result in one enemy facing, she's looking at 1 per turn once she's there. I suppose she could go see the generals on the left and you can get her 2 enemy facings while still walling, but then she's grassing 6 out of 7 turns instead of just 4 out of 7, or something like that. Anyway, I'm going with 13 for now. 3-4 I'm not convinced she can do 12, more like 9, just because of the turns where you are going from the bottom to the top. Still, I think 9 is pushing it. Anyway, that's basically 8 + 13 + 9 = 30. So she needs 5 more in 3-8 so if you push things then halfway through 3-8 she can have S strike.

Anyone mind telling me exactly what level beorc Lethe would level as?

For transformed exp, 2x level. So 42, meaning 20/20/2. As I said, higher than a crowned unit. Then after forcing that spd with bexp she's suddenly 20/20/4 while transformed. As for bexping, take the level she's listed at, calculate the bexp cost as if she was beorc, then multiply by 1.5. So basically as if she was 31.5, then 33 after she gets a level. Or, 20/11.5, then 20/13.

Hell, I could see Boyd having cause for worry. Another BEXP level, she's got healthy enough speed for part 4, and well on her way to SS.

If not for gauge, she'd go a lot higher than she can now. Even if she could go back to PoR gauges I think she'd do better on this list. Especially if she got early transform but could still use grass. Well, grass would have to drop to giving 10 gauge or something, given how PoR's gauge goes up to 20. It would still be good, though. -1 for a battle and -3 per turn rather than -4 per battle and -5 per turn? Oh yeah! Even dropping max points to 20 it'd still be worth it. And she'd transform turn 2 now, since she'd start at 16 but this game doesn't give gauge on first turn for either side.

Ludicrous to think she'd be level 30 by then, but if she is...;;>> Hell, level 31 she can double auras. Part 4 I might be hyping however...

Well, 21 at the start. With a fair bit of bexp and battle exp she can have 23 for part 4, maybe 24, though not 24 without lots of bexp. So

Well she certainly isn't Low material.

Maybe I just hate cat gauge but I'm happy with her in low, though without someone speaking for the side of Kyza and the rest I'd be willing to see her a bit higher in low.

Ranulf is still pretty good in RD. In fact he's better in 10 than in 9.

I still don't see it. 30 spd and 36 mt I guess is fine, since that means he can 3HKO like Mia. The trouble is, he's limited by his gauge so if Mia has earth, or even thunder, she can bring adept to use more often than Ranulf. As such, he's stuck. I suppose 3HKOing makes him better offensively then those that don't double, though. But he also misses out on a bunch of player phases, too. And with str being 5th best growth bexp isn't fixing that so he'll be stuck at 36 for a while then 41 in part 4 and maybe 3-E, then 46 for the end, maybe 48. I suppose if you dump an energy drop on him it'll help, but I don't like the whole giving energy drops to every laguz we want to make better thing. Anyway, I see him as better in PoR.

Edited August 3, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Vykan12]

In POR he'll be reverted half his existence without the demi-band, and even when transformed he's only 2RKOing. We can't toss him adept or rend either, and energy drops will have lesser effect on him. Finally, 2RKOing lategame in POR is much less forgiveable than doing the same in part 3 GMs since almost everyone there has either doubling or atk issues.

You're comparing Ranulf to Mia, just remember that while Mia has constant player phase, Ranulf has more durability and movement. He also eliminates his grassing problem in 4-E and possibly even in 4-5 if you do the desert item trick.

[Narga_Rocks]

In POR he'll be reverted half his existence without the demi-band, and even when transformed he's only 2RKOing. We can't toss him adept or rend either, and energy drops will have lesser effect on him. Finally, 2RKOing lategame in POR is much less forgiveable than doing the same in part 3 GMs since almost everyone there has either doubling or atk issues.

You're comparing Ranulf to Mia, just remember that while Mia has constant player phase, Ranulf has more durability and movement. He also eliminates his grassing problem in 4-E and possibly even in 4-5 if you do the desert item trick.

I guess it's just playstyle. There is the whole being untransformed thing they've got going on in PoR, I guess, and 2RKOing when others are 1RKOing. I haven't played PoR in a few years though, aside from doing endgame once for my transfer on an endgame save I had. Maybe I'm just not remembering his performance in PoR accurately?

Still, Mia without earth is basically even with Ranulf, or probably better thanks to crit and constant player phase (and a few turns with a storm sword along the way, though it isn't a constant by any means), since his gauge limits his enemy phase exposure anyway. For Mia with earth however, there isn't really anything we can give Ranulf aside from 2 energy drops to make him comparable. His limiting factor is gauge not durability, so earth doesn't help him. All he's got left on her is transformed movement.

I guess my look at part 3 RD is mostly just 3 or 4 members of a vanguard and a clean up crew, and my clean up crew tends to be units with a role in endgame or units like Heather and Mist. As such, I tend to look down on anyone that doesn't fit in those categories. Maybe that's why I don't like Ranulf in this game. He's more of an in between.

[-Cynthia-]

Ranulf is better in comparison to the team in RD, but might be worse against enemies than he was in PoR.

Take Haar for example. He's actually really similar to how he was in PoR, strong, high durability flier with some doubling issues, does about the same against enemies( a little worse actually). All that really changed was his availability. However, he jumped from Lower Mid to Top, because RD is harder, and his compeition got worse, save a few exceptions.

Edited August 3, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

Uh, I assume you mean part 4? Hard to say. I'm thinking Micaiah. Her durability is decent enough and her avo isn't through the roof anyway, so it isn't like losing stars makes her able to face fewer enemies at once. As such, she can do pretty well against all that paladins, doubling most with 26 but if you keep giving her some bexp she might have 28 spd and be able to double all. Then in the desert when transformed she can move. 4-2 has thickets that she can run through, though, and 4-5 has more thickets and the laguz there should give her good experience she'll need. As for Ike, 4-1 she doesn't have any special benefits and there are a few 25 spd enemies so she would like 30 spd and might not get it. Same problem in 4-2 but there are fewer 25 spd guys there and she gets the whole running through thickets like they aren't there thing. As for 4-4, laguz are the only units that keep their 8 (vika) or 9 move and she basically has 8 move going up a single ledge, compared to a 7 move beorc that's left with 5 move, or a mage with 4 move, or an armor with 3. So she's got a bit of advantages each way, but overall I'd say she's best served going to the desert, next best is Tibarn, last is Ike.

At least Tibarn's route would help her level to get her closer to the 17-34 AS she needs to double auras, but...I suppose part 4 is technically retirement for non-royals. I suppose Michaiah's route would be best.

I don't mind letting Oscar or Shinon get one, though either of them can just be slowplayed to get the str boost once they cap other things in tier 2.

If Lethe's got problems doubling, then Oscar sure as hell does.

As for Shinon...What, he's not strong enough?

Well, in 3-4 I agree she has some issues, 3-7 thanks to river she does okay (moves 3 times farther than him, sometimes), but afterwards she falls short. Anyway, among Mordy's faster supports Lethe is probably best. As for the rest, it requires 7 adjacents in 2 chapters to raise a level every other chapter, but in return for the extra constraints you don't get A until part 4 anyway. As such, none of the other supports really give anything extra until then. In fact, taking fire (for example), he gets a C when he could have B Lethe, so he has the same mt/def/res boost but much less hit (does he need it? I think without he doesn't have 100, but I haven't checked) and might have 3 avo extra at best. He gets B when he could have A Lethe, so fire/dark gives 2 mt, 1 def/res when he could have 2 mt, 2 def/res. Same with thunder/light, except 1 mt, 2 def/res instead of the other way. Again, he's looking at losing 1 def/res or 1 mt in return for 5 avo max (Ike and Oscar stay away from Mordy). With B water, he gets the same mt/def/res as he'd have with Lethe, and misses out on the hit boost. With 156 hit rate without Lethe I don't know if he doesn't get 100% hit, though. At any rate, 183 hit certainly won't miss anything. Even 173 (his hit on worst bio) probably won't miss anything even if the enemy is on best bio. Chances are, without Lethe the difference is when on worst bio and the enemy on best he'll not get 100. I don't know if that's enough benefit to give up the possibility of having +3/3 in part 4, but maybe it is. However, his waters are Brom and Mist. An A Ulki wouldn't likely happen until 4-E-1, and he'd miss out on 2/2 in 3-11 and 3-E by doing that.

Anyway, back to fire/dark and light/thunder, in part 4 he's looking at 2/3 and 8 of some other thing, when he could have 2/2 and 27 hit. Since the 8 avo is basically meaningless for Mordecai, we are looking at fire and light. +1 mt for -19 hit, or +1 def for -19 hit. He could take dark or thunder, I suppose, but then it's basically +1 mt or +1 def for -27 hit and nothing in return. At this point, it's really more about helping his partner than helping himself. In part 4, it mostly comes down to how often the extra hit from Lethe causes 100% hit when he wouldn't have it otherwise. And I suppose since he was missing mt or def in 3-11 and 3-E that he could've had with Lethe it cancels the ones for the first part 4 chapters. So the +1mt or +1def only matters in 4-E, and at that point the extra hit% is also suddenly better.

All in all, I have to agree that if both Mordecai and Lethe are played Mordy's best support is Lethe.

(since you are already saying it, I'm not trying to convince you, just anyone else)

Seems supports might have an effect after all. But either way, +1 for atk and def when you hit hard without doubling and are nigh unkillable anyways seems rather redundant. Mordy couldn't give a shit who he supports, and since Lethe's the fastest...

Don't worry, I know. Nice to clear up the mist though.

Might help her grow level, but won't help her grow strike since she won't double.

As opposed to when she'd be doing nothing untransformed anyways? If I recall, cats gain 5 meter a turn? She could take a grass, take a shot from someone, and be ready to transform next turn.

I still say Lethe would be much better if she was level 17 but kept her stats. Despite it meaning she'd be further from roaring.

Her situation is pretty weird.

I see.

In a way, playing with laguz is like an ocean, wave after wave keep striking till the enemy is eroded. The meter is not a problem, you just have to know how to manage it. Those with slower meters would prefer to have the grass to help transform earlier to be the first strike. Those with faster gauges only need a shot of grass and waiting a bit before charging forward, then repeat the pattern. Cats you could consider as a pinch hitters, to help beat down an enemy others might have trouble with due to speed. This means meter might go down faster, but can easier be managed between battles as long as you remember you have the ability to revert for a reason. Cat gauge goes down fast, but no one ever considered how to take advantage of how fast the gauge also goes up.

Too bad it helps Lyre none, who's like Est if she downed a spoonful of heroine...

Oh, I never said 9 for 2-E, just 2-2. For 2-E I'm going with 13, given how she can't be there from the beginning and since walling tends to result in one enemy facing, she's looking at 1 per turn once she's there. I suppose she could go see the generals on the left and you can get her 2 enemy facings while still walling, but then she's grassing 6 out of 7 turns instead of just 4 out of 7, or something like that. Anyway, I'm going with 13 for now. 3-4 I'm not convinced she can do 12, more like 9, just because of the turns where you are going from the bottom to the top. Still, I think 9 is pushing it. Anyway, that's basically 8 + 13 + 9 = 30. So she needs 5 more in 3-8 so if you push things then halfway through 3-8 she can have S strike.

Either way, it seems like semantics.

For transformed exp, 2x level. So 42, meaning 20/20/2. As I said, higher than a crowned unit. Then after forcing that spd with bexp she's suddenly 20/20/4 while transformed. As for bexping, take the level she's listed at, calculate the bexp cost as if she was beorc, then multiply by 1.5. So basically as if she was 31.5, then 33 after she gets a level. Or, 20/11.5, then 20/13.

So I take it would be quite a bit of bexp ;;>> Well it's only a bit as she can get most of her exp from combat. She only needs like one level for a chapter quite a bit later. She can fill up a bit of the exp bar in the mean time without worry.

If not for gauge, she'd go a lot higher than she can now. Even if she could go back to PoR gauges I think she'd do better on this list. Especially if she got early transform but could still use grass. Well, grass would have to drop to giving 10 gauge or something, given how PoR's gauge goes up to 20. It would still be good, though. -1 for a battle and -3 per turn rather than -4 per battle and -5 per turn? Oh yeah! Even dropping max points to 20 it'd still be worth it. And she'd transform turn 2 now, since she'd start at 16 but this game doesn't give gauge on first turn for either side.

I think you may be overrating how bad cat gauge is. It's not what it is, but how you use it.

Well, 21 at the start. With a fair bit of bexp and battle exp she can have 23 for part 4, maybe 24, though not 24 without lots of bexp. So

Well with a level bexp'd, she'd technically have 28 AS which is enough for part 4's pre-endgame. 2 BEXP levels, she'd have enough as is.

Maybe I just hate cat gauge but I'm happy with her in low, though without someone speaking for the side of Kyza and the rest I'd be willing to see her a bit higher in low.

He has a major disadvantage. Not being useful prior to part 3, not as close to S strike as she is, no support, no bond, and not doubling with similar might.

As for cat gauge, again the meter is not an end all be all. You just have to know how to manage it. Use cats in bursts.

Not sure how this wound up being a discussion about Ranulf...

[Narga_Rocks]

If Lethe's got problems doubling, then Oscar sure as hell does.

yep. Very much so. I don't like him, in PoR because of his str and in RD because of his spd caps and his str. In PoR he's helped by having a massive number of pretty good paladins to make his movement more important than it is here, and this game hurts him for being a paladin in 3-4, 3-7, 4-4, and knocks him down to foot speed in 3-8. But he could still take a crown in 3-11 with the help of an energy drop and maybe be useful at that point, so Lethe would only be doubling stuff he isn't in 3-4 before he reaches 24 spd and in 3-8 and 3-10 where he can't get 25 speed.

As for Shinon...What, he's not strong enough?

Not for me, anyway. I make sure he caps his tier 2 str cap, because otherwise he couldn't do some of the things I want him doing. I do it with slowplaying and bexp, though, not drops. But it would be less constraining to use drops.

Seems supports might have an effect after all. But either way, +1 for atk and def when you hit hard without doubling and are nigh unkillable anyways seems rather redundant. Mordy couldn't give a shit who he supports, and since Lethe's the fastest...

Well, for a guy who doesn't double +1 mt isn't likely to cause major changes, and while 32 def is insufficient for part 4 HM (4-4 anyway, and only because he gets doubled and can be critted), if he's been leveled he'll have more so it won't be an issue so the +1 def from light or thunder won't change much. Besides, 34 def might even be sufficient in 4-4 anyway, except the being doubled thing. Anyway, it also helps Lethe that the +1 in 4-1 and 4-4 from another support is kinda canceled by the +1 in 3-11 and 3-E that an A Lethe gives Mordy that a B light/thunder/fire/dark wouldn't give in those chapters.

Don't worry, I know. Nice to clear up the mist though.

That's what I'm hoping for with the support talk.

As opposed to when she'd be doing nothing untransformed anyways? If I recall, cats gain 5 meter a turn? She could take a grass, take a shot from someone, and be ready to transform next turn.

Well, they get 10 meter per turn, and 15 if they hit back without damage, but she has 16 mt at this point and I think that does damage to all but generals in 2-2 (and one halb, really two but you'll never likely meet the reinforcement one). So when she does damage she's getting hit exp, so that's something, but she also gets doubled by almost everything and while that doesn't matter if you have a healer, you don't in 2-2. So it's a little risky to let her get attacked while untransformed. And with a 7 turn bexp limit, getting there might be hard without maximizing enemy phase damage. Still, if you can find a way to do it without risking Lethe and without costing efficiency, it could help her a bit. At 20/1, she'll get decent exp for hits, especially when considering even 5 points means a big cut down in the bexp it'll cost in 3-8. We aren't looking to level Lethe in 2-2, just reduce the cut she takes in 3-8, I suppose.

Her situation is pretty weird.

Exactly. Too far from 30 to make roar easy to get, too high leveled to gain good experience. ie: screwed over by IS.

Either way, it seems like semantics.

Well, it isn't really relevant in which chapters she gets how many hits, because 33x2 and 30x2 are rather close to 70 and mean she gets S during 1-7 either way. So yeah, mostly semantics, with a touch of relevance.

So I take it would be quite a bit of bexp ;;>> Well it's only a bit as she can get most of her exp from combat. She only needs like one level for a chapter quite a bit later. She can fill up a bit of the exp bar in the mean time without worry.

Considering she just needs the level for 3-8, she has 4 chapters to fill it out, and probably will get around 40 to 50, she's looking at ~1600 or something. I think that might be around 10% or something, so it certainly isn't the end of the world. That should put her from lv 21 to lv 22 and from 24 spd to 26. Then she doesn't really need 28 except a couple of warriors in 3-E and of course part 4. So 3-8, 3-10, 3-11, 3-E, enough to cut the cost down by a fair bit again, and by 3-E she's likely actually getting more than 1 exp, and might even start getting real exp by 3-10 or 3-11. Makes it relatively cheap to get another bexp level and SS should arrive sometime in 4-P/1/2 if you really push her, maybe even 3-E if you go overboard. I'm not sure how helpful she's being during this time, of course, since getting that kind of strike level requires enemy phase exposure meaning other units likely could've done more that enemy phase, but whatever.

I think you may be overrating how bad cat gauge is. It's not what it is, but how you use it.

I don't know. Maybe. Just found their gauge frustrating at times.

Well with a level bexp'd, she'd technically have 28 AS which is enough for part 4's pre-endgame. 2 BEXP levels, she'd have enough as is.

Well, she needs 2. She gets 12 -> 13 for one level, and 13 -> 14 for another. There's likely a chance of missing spd on bexp, but since it's the second highest growth it probably isn't too likely, and even if it is it should be relatively painless to reload once to force speed. I don't get the aversion to resetting where bexp is concerned in this game. In the previous game where you can cap Mia's (for example) str and def at 20/10 with a fair amount of resetting I can understand not wanting to include it because getting 6 point levels all the time will basically skew the system towards units that start somewhat low leveled with lots of chapters for cheap bexp abusing with slowplaying (Mia's a good example for the abuse in PoR since she is 6.4 off her def cap at 20/20 on average).

But in this game you get 3 points no matter what. So if we are forcing it to give something in the top 3, rather than resetting for like the 5th or 6th best growth, I don't understand the aversion.

He has a major disadvantage. Not being useful prior to part 3, not as close to S strike as she is, no support, no bond, and not doubling with similar might.

Well, I'm already willing to accept Lethe > Kyza, considering she is closer to S strike, spd is his 6th best growth so bexp is out the window unless you want to do ~4 resets or something to get it each time. 4 if you bexp to 99 and reset on turn 2/3 if he doesn't get it, or who knows how many resets to do it in the base with bexp alone. And he starts at 22 so he's needing 24 for 3-4 and 3-7, and 26 for beyond, so it isn't easy. At which point, his 4 mt advantage is cut to 3 mt from Lethe's C Mordy and is eaten away when Lethe attacks anything not a general or swordmaster because she doubles and he didn't. No crit boost, but Lethe only has 18 crit with Mordy next to her so she's looking at <5% most of the time, 0 without him. The bonds do however provide 23 crit evade which is way higher than Kyza's 14, so that's good. And once she hits S strike, she beats his offence on everything until he gets S, which considering his lack of doubling could be a while. And I don't know if he can draw a +mt support from anyone with his light. Not at his arrival time, anyway.

I'd just like to see someone's defence of Kyza. I know most of the reasons to put him under Lethe.

As for cat gauge, again the meter is not an end all be all. You just have to know how to manage it. Use cats in bursts.

Well, I suppose you could just drain them in two turns and spend a turn or two building them up again. Bursts, like you said. At that point, though, I don't see how Ranulf is so much different transformwise than his PoR incarnation. Guess it's the grass. But I guess we are talking about Lethe, anyway.

Not sure how this wound up being a discussion about Ranulf...

Mostly my fault. What I get for whining about Ranulf's change from PoR to RD without really looking too hard at his PoR. I just thought I remembered him being better. Of course I never used him much in either, so that might be part of it.

Edited August 3, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

That's what I'm hoping for with the support talk.

Lucky for you, I happen to love support functions. Next two targets are Fiona and Danved.

Well, they get 10 meter per turn, and 15 if they hit back without damage, but she has 16 mt at this point and I think that does damage to all but generals in 2-2 (and one halb, really two but you'll never likely meet the reinforcement one). So when she does damage she's getting hit exp, so that's something, but she also gets doubled by almost everything and while that doesn't matter if you have a healer, you don't in 2-2. So it's a little risky to let her get attacked while untransformed. And with a 7 turn bexp limit, getting there might be hard without maximizing enemy phase damage. Still, if you can find a way to do it without risking Lethe and without costing efficiency, it could help her a bit. At 20/1, she'll get decent exp for hits, especially when considering even 5 points means a big cut down in the bexp it'll cost in 3-8. We aren't looking to level Lethe in 2-2, just reduce the cut she takes in 3-8, I suppose.

10 meter a turn!? Well my assumption was right, except it just means they only need one grass and one turn, no enemy attack required!

Right then, time to look at stats...

Wow! Some units can't double her untransformed in 2-2! Granted it's only 6 of them...Let's run numbers though. Lethe's got 9 defense and 51 HP. Let's see how well she lasts...

Physically, you need 22 ATK and doubling to 2RKO her. Unfortunately, that's the weakest dude on the map...

Those that don't double her however...Soldier with the greatlance 3RKOs her. Armor with the steel blade 4RKOs her. Poison archer 4RKOs her. Thunder mages 5RKO her. Well these guys have a noticeable problem killing her untransformed.

Offensively untransformed, she can hurt all but the armor knights. Hilariously enough, she can untransformed kill the mages faster than they can kill her. Lulz.

I suppose that's a rather bleh number...But at least enough to help her get her gauge going, or pad her with a bit of exp.

Exactly. Too far from 30 to make roar easy to get, too high leveled to gain good experience. ie: screwed over by IS.

Yet still surprisingly usable regardless.

Considering she just needs the level for 3-8, she has 4 chapters to fill it out, and probably will get around 40 to 50, she's looking at ~1600 or something. I think that might be around 10% or something, so it certainly isn't the end of the world. That should put her from lv 21 to lv 22 and from 24 spd to 26. Then she doesn't really need 28 except a couple of warriors in 3-E and of course part 4. So 3-8, 3-10, 3-11, 3-E, enough to cut the cost down by a fair bit again, and by 3-E she's likely actually getting more than 1 exp, and might even start getting real exp by 3-10 or 3-11. Makes it relatively cheap to get another bexp level and SS should arrive sometime in 4-P/1/2 if you really push her, maybe even 3-E if you go overboard. I'm not sure how helpful she's being during this time, of course, since getting that kind of strike level requires enemy phase exposure meaning other units likely could've done more that enemy phase, but whatever.

Right then.

I don't know. Maybe. Just found their gauge frustrating at times.

Everyone wants a god modder.

Well, she needs 2. She gets 12 -> 13 for one level, and 13 -> 14 for another. There's likely a chance of missing spd on bexp, but since it's the second highest growth it probably isn't too likely, and even if it is it should be relatively painless to reload once to force speed. I don't get the aversion to resetting where bexp is concerned in this game. In the previous game where you can cap Mia's (for example) str and def at 20/10 with a fair amount of resetting I can understand not wanting to include it because getting 6 point levels all the time will basically skew the system towards units that start somewhat low leveled with lots of chapters for cheap bexp abusing with slowplaying (Mia's a good example for the abuse in PoR since she is 6.4 off her def cap at 20/20 on average).

But in this game you get 3 points no matter what. So if we are forcing it to give something in the top 3, rather than resetting for like the 5th or 6th best growth, I don't understand the aversion.

It's just the most probable. Her other growths are off by like a healthy 15-20%, it's pretty damn likely she'll nab speed. It's all she wants, we don't NEED to overkill the growths.

Well, I'm already willing to accept Lethe > Kyza, considering she is closer to S strike, spd is his 6th best growth so bexp is out the window unless you want to do ~4 resets or something to get it each time. 4 if you bexp to 99 and reset on turn 2/3 if he doesn't get it, or who knows how many resets to do it in the base with bexp alone. And he starts at 22 so he's needing 24 for 3-4 and 3-7, and 26 for beyond, so it isn't easy. At which point, his 4 mt advantage is cut to 3 mt from Lethe's C Mordy and is eaten away when Lethe attacks anything not a general or swordmaster because she doubles and he didn't. No crit boost, but Lethe only has 18 crit with Mordy next to her so she's looking at <5% most of the time, 0 without him. The bonds do however provide 23 crit evade which is way higher than Kyza's 14, so that's good. And once she hits S strike, she beats his offence on everything until he gets S, which considering his lack of doubling could be a while. And I don't know if he can draw a +mt support from anyone with his light. Not at his arrival time, anyway.

I'd just like to see someone's defence of Kyza. I know most of the reasons to put him under Lethe.

All they got to go with is a Lyre speed support. Can't wait to see how this will prove Lyre to be a defensive juggernaut.

However, I guess I should partake in telling you my lofty goal. I have a habit of overhyping characters, but do tell me if I'm off...

She's good in two parts, part 2 and just about all of part 3 with a bit of a gentle nudge in the right direction, and not completely falling into badness really until endgame. Basically she's a straight arrow throughout the game. This sounds pretty deserving of mid, though I could bring up that perhaps she could put Wrath to great use, what with being a cat laguz that function in bursts that doubles with decent offensive power. So I must ask...

Does below below Muarim, below Tauroneo, or below Naesala sound like a bit too much a leap for her? ;;>>

Well, I suppose you could just drain them in two turns and spend a turn or two building them up again. Bursts, like you said. At that point, though, I don't see how Ranulf is so much different transformwise than his PoR incarnation. Guess it's the grass. But I guess we are talking about Lethe, anyway.

Precisely. If anyone really got nerfed, it's Lethe.

Mostly my fault. What I get for whining about Ranulf's change from PoR to RD without really looking too hard at his PoR. I just thought I remembered him being better. Of course I never used him much in either, so that might be part of it.

I can't blame ya, Ranulf's too cute<3

Edited August 3, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Narga_Rocks]

Wow! Some units can't double her untransformed in 2-2! Granted it's only 6 of them...Let's run numbers though. Lethe's got 9 defense and 51 HP. Let's see how well she lasts...

Physically, you need 22 ATK and doubling to 2RKO her. Unfortunately, that's the weakest dude on the map...

Those that don't double her however...Soldier with the greatlance 3RKOs her. Armor with the steel blade 4RKOs her. Poison archer 4RKOs her. Thunder mages 5RKO her. Well these guys have a noticeable problem killing her untransformed.

Offensively untransformed, she can hurt all but the armor knights. Hilariously enough, she can untransformed kill the mages faster than they can kill her. Lulz.

I suppose that's a rather bleh number...But at least enough to help her get her gauge going, or pad her with a bit of exp.

Yeah, if you are careful enough, then depending on layout in the are in which she becomes untransformed you can probably keep her alive. The trouble is she then needs healing or still being careful once she transforms again since she'll likely be 2RKOd after the damage she took untransformed. The other issue is whatever enemy she countered and caused less damage than someone else would have it needs to not cause us to go past 7 turns. If these 2 issues can be solved, and maybe they can I don't know, then she saves bexp in her chapter (edit: I should be more specific. By getting cexp now, it costs less bexp in 3-8 to get her spd). Although if you are really careful and only get her attacked by that soldier with the greatlance you said 3RKOs her she might be fine afterwords and she'll get exp. Still, that's one guy and I don't know if the chapter would flow right.

Yet still surprisingly usable regardless.

Just saying they tried their hardest to screw her over. Not that they succeeded completely.

It's just the most probable. Her other growths are off by like a healthy 15-20%, it's pretty damn likely she'll nab speed. It's all she wants, we don't NEED to overkill the growths.

Yeah, I think most of the time she'll get spd. I wasn't saying I'd like to force her to get +6 each time, just saying that while resetting bexp in PoR has no place in tier lists I don't see the issue with doing it in RD for the top 3 growths.

All they got to go with is a Lyre speed support. Can't wait to see how this will prove Lyre to be a defensive juggernaut.

Light plus thunder? Yeah, defence is about the only thing to talk about there. Aside from +5 hit and avo until part 4, where it's 8.

Heck, Ranulf, the guy who is forced and starts the same chapter, has wind and is painfully slow growing. 11 adjacents for 2 chapters. 11 adjacents almost gets a 02 support a level in a single chapter. And 9 adjacents gets a 01 support a level in a single chapter. Anyway, as for the rest everyone else likely can have a B someone and be building that support to A, and even if they are willing to take Kyza it takes more work to build his support than Lethe takes to build Mordecai. And I don't see some kind of massive benefit to override that. Kyza isn't even statistically better than Lethe when they are both supportless, and what unit is willing to give up fire/dark/water/thunder/earth for light anyway?

However, I guess I should partake in telling you my lofty goal. I have a habit of overhyping characters, but do tell me if I'm off...

She's good in two parts, part 2 and just about all of part 3 with a bit of a gentle nudge in the right direction, and not completely falling into badness really until endgame. Basically she's a straight arrow throughout the game. This sounds pretty deserving of mid, though I could bring up that perhaps she could put Wrath to great use, what with being a cat laguz that function in bursts that doubles with decent offensive power. So I must ask...

Does below below Muarim, below Tauroneo, or below Naesala sound like a bit too much a leap for her? ;;>>

Um. I'm not touching that. As I said, I have a hard time seeing her out of Low, but I just don't like cat gauge and 26 mt for 3-4, or something. I think it would be funny though if someone loaded up the tier list and saw Lethe jump 10 spots and see the look on their face.

Precisely. If anyone really got nerfed, it's Lethe.

I agree she got nerfed. And Mist (no magic swords), and Astrid (speed growth? I don't need no speed growth, I have Makalov now. I gave .35 points of my (knight warded) speed growth to Gatrie as a parting gift, and the goverment took .05 in taxes from the transaction. Guess that went to Elincia, but I don't know who she taxed to get the rest of her boost.), and Ilyana (so, I used to beat Soren in Str by so much he had to use forges all the time to be faster than me, or he'd have less mt. Now all they have issues with is ranged tomes and even that can be fixed for them in 3rd tier, and I have almost as much issues with ranged tomes in 2nd tier. At least I kept my speed growth, low though it is. Soren had to give .05 to the tax machine.)

Edited August 3, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

Yeah, if you are careful enough, then depending on layout in the are in which she becomes untransformed you can probably keep her alive. The trouble is she then needs healing or still being careful once she transforms again since she'll likely be 2RKOd after the damage she took untransformed. The other issue is whatever enemy she countered and caused less damage than someone else would have it needs to not cause us to go past 7 turns. If these 2 issues can be solved, and maybe they can I don't know, then she saves bexp in her chapter (edit: I should be more specific. By getting cexp now, it costs less bexp in 3-8 to get her spd). Although if you are really careful and only get her attacked by that soldier with the greatlance you said 3RKOs her she might be fine afterwords and she'll get exp. Still, that's one guy and I don't know if the chapter would flow right.

Part 2 in general is weird.

Yeah, I think most of the time she'll get spd. I wasn't saying I'd like to force her to get +6 each time, just saying that while resetting bexp in PoR has no place in tier lists I don't see the issue with doing it in RD for the top 3 growths.

Well it's certainly a lot more assured than it is in PoR.

Light plus thunder? Yeah, defence is about the only thing to talk about there. Aside from +5 hit and avo until part 4, where it's 8.

Heck, Ranulf, the guy who is forced and starts the same chapter, has wind and is painfully slow growing. 11 adjacents for 2 chapters. 11 adjacents almost gets a 02 support a level in a single chapter. And 9 adjacents gets a 01 support a level in a single chapter. Anyway, as for the rest everyone else likely can have a B someone and be building that support to A, and even if they are willing to take Kyza it takes more work to build his support than Lethe takes to build Mordecai. And I don't see some kind of massive benefit to override that. Kyza isn't even statistically better than Lethe when they are both supportless, and what unit is willing to give up fire/dark/water/thunder/earth for light anyway?

Indeed.

Um. I'm not touching that. As I said, I have a hard time seeing her out of Low, but I just don't like cat gauge and 26 mt for 3-4, or something. I think it would be funny though if someone loaded up the tier list and saw Lethe jump 10 spots and see the look on their face.

You honestly think Soren and Calill are any better?

[Narga_Rocks]

You honestly think Soren and Calill are any better?

I don't know. From an everyone should be able to tank a bit and do some damage enemy phase standpoint, Lethe could be better than Soren. From a clean up crew standpoint, Soren would be better than Lethe. It depends on how those tasks are rated. I tend to lean towards the second belief, since we've got people that can go ahead and weaken or kill on enemy phase already, and they do it better than Lethe, so we just need people to clean up the trash. Soren does more in a single hit than Lethe does in a single hit, has 2 range, and so doesn't take counters in places Lethe does and doesn't miss out on player phases grassing. Kinda why Ilyana is better too and why I'm reluctant to put Lethe over a fair amount of units. Could be called a philosophical difference, I suppose. Maybe. As for Calill, she has that and has superior offence eventually.

However, Lethe's easily better than Kyza simply because 4 hp and 2 def doesn't make up for her mostly superior offence. Not to mention the 10 res difference. And the +1 def she's pulling on him supportwise in 3-4, 3-7, 3-11, 3-E thanks to Mordy support, since if they are both in play I don't see a good reason to not do it. Meaning she's only losing 4 hp and 1 def at first, which certainly can't outweigh the offence difference. She even has the same hp growth and only .05 less def and str. Tiger gauge is better than cat, but probably not by enough to make up for the offence difference when they are both transformed. Then there's her respectable part 2. Most wouldn't call Kyza's part 3 respectable. It's easy for me to get on the Lethe > Kyza bandwagon. I'm even willing to drive or navigate that wagon.

[Florete]

Okay, where the hell's this Lethe hype coming from? Have you seen how bad her performance is in part 3? Even with an Energy Drop, she's 2 rounding at best in 3-4, and that's against Warriors and Halberdiers she doubles. Swordmasters she's at a 3RKO, and Generals she's like a 4RKO. And that's with an Energy Drop. Without, there's no reason to even bother.

And since she levels like a 20/20/2 Beorc, that isn't changing any time soon, since she gets 1 experience for non-kills and probably 1-3 for kills or something. I saw some talk of BEXP, and it takes 3200 of it for Lethe to level up once, and by 3-4 the max possible is only 10,350, but since we'll likely have even less, she'll be using like 40% of our BEXP just to level up. Without BEXP, she stops doubling most things as early as 3-8. Even so, her offense still blows, because she won't get much Str (it's tied for her 4th lowest growth, so BEXP won't help it) and she was 2 rounding at best back in 3-4, with an Energy Drop.

Then she's got her stupid transformation gauge, her virtually useless affinity, lack of ranged options, and fire weakness.

Does below below Muarim, below Tauroneo, or below Naesala sound like a bit too much a leap for her? ;;>>

A bit too much? Try way, way too much.

[Narga_Rocks]

Okay, where the hell's this Lethe hype coming from? Have you seen how bad her performance is in part 3? Even with an Energy Drop, she's 2 rounding at best in 3-4, and that's against Warriors and Halberdiers she doubles. Swordmasters she's at a 3RKO, and Generals she's like a 4RKO. And that's with an Energy Drop. Without, there's no reason to even bother.

And since she levels like a 20/20/2 Beorc, that isn't changing any time soon, since she gets 1 experience for non-kills and probably 1-3 for kills or something. I saw some talk of BEXP, and it takes 3200 of it for Lethe to level up once, and by 3-4 the max possible is only 10,350, but since we'll likely have even less, she'll be using like 40% of our BEXP just to level up. Without BEXP, she stops doubling most things as early as 3-8. Even so, her offense still blows, because she won't get much Str (it's tied for her 4th lowest growth, so BEXP won't help it) and she was 2 rounding at best back in 3-4, with an Energy Drop.

Then she's got her stupid transformation gauge, her virtually useless affinity, lack of ranged options, and fire weakness.

But Kyza at least is worse. I'm not trying for Lethe any higher than that, since I don't see it. Kyza matches the lack of ranged options, and the fire weakness. As for useless affinity, if you are looking at her part 3 at all Mordy likes her simply because he doesn't get much else anyway, and gets stuff faster with Lethe. If she isn't in play, it doesn't matter, but once she's there, what's Mordy got against her? Are we taking Mordy to 4-E? That's really the only reason I see to deny that support. Her durability almost matches Kyza, and she's like 3 mt less with the Mordy support and doubles more than him. And she doesn't need bexp until 3-8 at which point she's likely seen at least 30 battles, if you are trying to use her. At which point, the bonus experience is a fair bit less painful, considering she needs 2240 in 3-8, at which point we have 17975 max. ~12.5%. As I said before, I don't think that's the end of the world. 40% is bad and way too much. 12.5% is way less than Kyza would need to have a chance of getting two points of speed. And she doesn't need the energy drop to beat Kyza against anything she doubles that he doesn't, except generals. With 27 mt vs. 30 mt, though, she comes close. And she hits S long before Kyza, what with more doubling and part 2 usage. So then even if Kyza managed str with a 40% growth while leveling like a 20/16 beorc he's looking at 32 mt not doubling vs. Lethe's 32 mt doubling. I just don't see Kyza > Lethe, especially when we throw in part 2.

Ignoring gauge, Lethe is way better than Kyza. With gauge in mind, he has one too, though it isn't as bad. I don't see how Kyza's is so much better than Lethe's that it overrides everything else.

Edited August 3, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

I suppose I could see Lethe > Kyza, but I recall Vykan having a good argument for Kyza > Lethe part 3, so I want to see what he has to say before making any immediate changes.

Oh, and Kyza has 31 MT at base, not 30.

EDIT: Ignore that, I was looking at Lion strike.

Edited August 3, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Narga_Rocks]

I suppose I could see Lethe > Kyza, but I recall Vykan having a good argument for Kyza > Lethe part 3, so I want to see what he has to say before making any immediate changes.

I agree. I've made a couple of comments that I'd like to see Kyza > Lethe arguments to see the other side. Vykan works, so would someone else.

[Zkirsche]

4-1 she doesn't have any special benefits

She has a large sight radius compared to most units.

[grandjackal]

I've just shown that she can actually have a decent range of positive, from part 2-practically all of part 3, with little help (as that energy drop only helps her against generals and wyverns, she can 2RKO otherwise quite fine without it). Vykan just likes giving laguz stat boosters, and it is a nice investment considering Lethe.

Look at everyone in Low. They don't have that kind of use. Vika's hardly clutch, Danved is barely useful even in the CRK chapters, the rest are like endgame staff fillers, and Kyza has no former positive while being offensively worse, not being significantly tougher enough to make a difference. I believe Vykan's argument was giving Kyza a speed wing, while as seen Lethe doesn't actually need a stat booster. On top of that, she can already have ready a support being built up with Mordy, seeing as he's her fastest support that follows her into part 3. Then there are bond supports to consider with him. +5 crit and crit evade isn't much, but I'm sure it comes to play.

You can't just say "cat meter" and throw her in low. If cat meter automatically ruins you, you had best drop Ranulf as well.

Ok look...For now, how about either below Nasir or Nealuchi?

Edited August 3, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Narga_Rocks]

She has a large sight radius compared to most units.

Right, that. Okay, so a benefit in each of the 6 part 4 chapters. Considering torches and the torch staff, though, I still think Micaiah's Team > Tibarn's Team > Ike's Team for the purpose of sticking Lethe in good places for both the army as a whole and for Lethe herself.

[-Cynthia-]

I don't know about that high for Lethe, since Vika and Danved are pretty useful in their respective chapters (probably better than Lethe's Part 2) and given similar favoritism Danved at least could become a positive IMO.

I could definitely see her> Renning though, who's really just a rather subpar 4-E choice. Even if he's marginally better than Lethe for 4-E, he has her Part 2 contributions to compare against.

[grandjackal]

I don't know about that high for Lethe, since Vika and Danved are pretty useful in their respective chapters (probably better than Lethe's Part 2) and given similar favoritism Danved at least could become a positive IMO.

Are you fucking serious? Come on people! Just because she's a cat doesn't warrent her below fail like these people! Vika at best is helpful in the swamp, and Danved's barely any use in his own damn chapters, due to being swamped around cavs! He's good in like one chapter, 3-9. Also, similar favoritism gets Danved positives? Have fun getting him 9 levels in 3 chapters where only one he'll be actually doing something. I just showed she's pretty decent in part 2 and most of part 3, and can continue with a minor bit of favoritism. When Devdan returns, he's utterly horrible. To give you a nice look.

Danved loses HP by 12, might by one (and keep in mind she'll have S strike by then, meaning he'll need a forge to be similar), not enough speed tou double (so the forge doesn't even matter that much in the end), skill by 3, defense by 3, and resistance by 8, and speed by 3. This is Lethe at base, which she will not be by the time he comes to the GM. He needs 9 levels to start doubling when he returns. I'd consider that far more favoritism than Lethe needs.

Vika's not pretty useful. Her avoid is decent at best, her durability is garbage, and she's 3 chapters at best of being meh. Lethe's been proven she already has at least 3 chapters of being ok. Advantage Lethe. Lethe can also continue to be pretty decent in part 3, while Vika vanishes until part 4 where she's hot garbage. Advantage Lethe. Lethe can be given minor favoritism to be pretty decent pre-endgame part 4 as well, while Vika would need a huge amount. Advantage Lethe.

I'd like a better excuse than "she's a cat, lol". Being a cat doesn't automatically warrent you to be garbage like Danved and Vika. You can't just say their existence merely annihilates Lethe's part 2. Danved isn't doing dick part 2, thanks to his joining chapter being swamped with cavs while he's on foot like a moron, 2-E he's doing dick because the CRK start too damn far away form any action, and 3-9 he's only decent at best. I'd hardly call this negating Lethe's part 2. I also fail to see what's so special about Vika's part 1 aside from the swamp, where she isn't even clutch there either.

I could definitely see her> Renning though, who's really just a rather subpar 4-E choice. Even if he's marginally better than Lethe for 4-E, he has her Part 2 contributions to compare against.

At least I know I'm not COMPLETELY out of my mind.

[Zkirsche]

You can't just say "cat meter" and throw her in low. If cat meter automatically ruins you, you had best drop Ranulf as well.

Ranulf has great offence and good defence. Lethe is average at best in both. She may double, but she attacks much less, here's what they do with their turns:

Lethe

Turn 1: Olivi grass

Turn 2: Wait.

Turn 3 Player: Attacks. Lethe now has 26 gauge.

Turn 3 Enemy: Attacked twice. Lethe now has 18 Gauge.

Turn 4 Player: Grasses. Lethe now has 28 Gauge.

Turn 4 Enemy: Attacked once. Lethe now has 24 gauge.

Turn 5 Player: Attacks. Lethe now has 15 gauge.

Turn 5 Enemy: Attacked twice. Lethe now has 7 gauge.

Turn 6 Player: Grasses. Lethe now has 17 gauge.

Turn 6 Enemy: Attacked once. Lethe now has 13 Gauge.

Turn 7 Player: Grasses. Lethe now has 23 Gauge.

Turn 7 Enemy: Attacked twice. Lethe now has 15 Gauge.

Turn 8 Player: Grasses. Lethe now has 25 Gauge.

Turn 8 Enemy: Attacked twice. Lethe now has 17 Gauge.

Turn 9 Player: Grasses. Lethe now has 27 gauge.

Turn 9 Enemy: Attacked thrice. Lethe now has 15 Gauge.

Turn 10 Player: Attacks. Lethe now has 6 gauge. End of chapter.

Kyza

Turn 1: Grasses

Turn 2: Waits.

Turn 3 Player: Attacks. Kyza now has 27 gauge.

Turn 3 Enemy: Attacked thrice. Kyza now has 18 gauge.

Turn 4 Player: Attacks. Kyza now has 11 gauge.

Turn 4 Enemy: Attacked twice. Kyza now has 5 gauge.

Turn 5 Player: Grasses. Kyza now has 16 Gauge.

Turn 5 Enemy: Attacked thrice. Kyza now has 7 gauge.

Turn 6 Player: Grasses. Kyza now has 18 gauge.

Turn 6 Enemy: Attacked twice. Kyza now has 12 Gauge.

Turn 7 Player: Grasses. Kyza now has 23 Gauge.

Turn 7 Enemy: Attacked thrice. Kyza now has 14 Gauge

Turn 8 Player: Grasses. Kyza now has 25 Gauge.

Turn 8 Enemy: Attacked thrice. Kyza now has 16 Gauge.

Turn 9 Player: Grasses. Kyza now has 27 Gauge.

Turn 9 Enemy: Attacked thrice. Kyza now has 18 Gauge.

Turn 10 Player: Attacks. Kyza now has 11 Gauge. End of chapter.

Kyza faced 22 rounds of combat, Lethe faced 16 rounds of combat. So, Kyza faced 1.5 more enemies, yet ends with more gauge, meaning if the chapter takes longer than 10 turns, Kyza's in the better position. This is ignoring healing, since Kyza has a better gauge and is more durable, he worries about the effects of healing less than Lethe, so can't afford to heal because of her pathetic gauge. If she heals instead of grassing, she faces little to no enemy phase. This is ignoring that Kyza is better with Reyson due to less gauge issues and that Kyza can use a speedwing or resolve to dig the nail in the coffin.Plus, he can afford to skip grasses on some of those turns, namely turn 7 player, but he would only be able to be attacked on teh enemy phase once but w/e. This is especially important as we are sharing olivi grasses between Ranulf/Lethe/Mordy/Kyza/Reyson.

Edited August 3, 2009 by kirsche

[-Cynthia-]

Are you fucking serious? Come on people! Just because she's a cat doesn't warrent her below fail like these people! Vika at best is helpful in the swamp, and Danved's barely any use in his own damn chapters, due to being swamped around cavs! He's good in like one chapter, 3-9. Also, similar favoritism gets Danved positives? Have fun getting him 9 levels in 3 chapters where only one he'll be actually doing something. I just showed she's pretty decent in part 2 and most of part 3, and can continue with a minor bit of favoritism. When Devdan returns, he's utterly horrible. To give you a nice look.

Danved loses HP by 12, might by one (and keep in mind she'll have S strike by then, meaning he'll need a forge to be similar), not enough speed tou double (so the forge doesn't even matter that much in the end), skill by 3, defense by 3, and resistance by 8, and speed by 3. This is Lethe at base, which she will not be by the time he comes to the GM. He needs 9 levels to start doubling when he returns. I'd consider that far more favoritism than Lethe needs.

I'll admit Danved isn't that useful in 2-3/2-E, but Lethe isn't very good in 2-2 or 2-E herself, so it comes down to Danved being good in 3-9 as opposed to Lethe being worse than most of the GMs.

Being underleveled also means that Danved can gain levels much more quickly. Furthermore, your comparison is assuming base Danved, which is pretty silly. Danved's Exp gain isn't exceptionally high, but he should gain enough to level up once in 2-3/2-E. Then in 3-9, we have 2 Paragons to spread out in the whole CRK and we aren't using many of them, so Danved can easily gain another 3-4 levels.

Lethe might not be at base, but she should be pretty close. She might have more chapters than Danved, but she only gains 1 Exp per kill, so she hasn't gained much more than a level. Let's do a different comparison:

22 Lethe (S Strike)

52 HP 31 Atk 26 AS (rounded up it's 12.5) 18 Def 20 Res

13/0 Danved (forged Steel Lance)

42 HP 34 Atk 23 AS 17 Def 13 Res

Offensively, it's almost a tie, he does better against enemies that both/neither double, she does better when doubling(if we would round down, she'd only beat Danved by one in AS). She has 10 HP/1 Def/7 Res over him, substantial leads, but not overwhelming. Danved also has access to 1-2 range and doesn't have to deal with gauge, so it's only a small victory for Lethe really.

Now onto a later part 4 comparison:

23 Lethe(SS strike)

53 HP 38 Ak 26 AS 20 Def 20 Res

20/1 Danved (forged Silver Lance)

49 HP 44 Atk 28 AS 22 Def 19 Res

Defensively it's about a tie (2 Def as opposed to 4 HP and 1 Res). Offensively, 6 Atk/2 AS/ 1-2 range possible/no gauge makes Danved the clear winner. Sadly, Danved is still leveling up faster than Lethe. Poor Lethe. He also gives out better supports, Fire>Heaven.

You could argue that we can give Lethe an Energy Drop for more Atk, but we could give a Speedwing to make Danved double more as well (there's one that drops in 3-9 so he has equal access as the rest of the GMs). We could give Lethe BEXP of course, but we can also give it to Danved, who will require less to level up.

So yeah, I don't see Lethe clearly beating Danved.

Vika compares more favorably to the the DB than Lethe or Danved do to the units in Part 2 or the GMs, which is the gist of it really. She may not be "clutch", but neither is Lethe.

Edited August 3, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

Ranulf has great offence and good defence. Lethe is average at best in both. She may double, but she attacks much less, here's what they do with their turns:

Lethe

Turn 1: Olivi grass

Turn 2: Wait.

Turn 3 Player: Attacks. Lethe now has 26 gauge.

Turn 3 Enemy: Attacked twice. Lethe now has 18 Gauge.

Turn 4 Player: Grasses. Lethe now has 28 Gauge.

Turn 4 Enemy: Attacked once. Lethe now has 24 gauge.

Turn 5 Player: Attacks. Lethe now has 15 gauge.

Turn 5 Enemy: Attacked twice. Lethe now has 7 gauge.

Turn 6 Player: Grasses. Lethe now has 17 gauge.

Turn 6 Enemy: Attacked once. Lethe now has 13 Gauge.

Turn 7 Player: Grasses. Lethe now has 23 Gauge.

Turn 7 Enemy: Attacked twice. Lethe now has 15 Gauge.

Turn 8 Player: Grasses. Lethe now has 25 Gauge.

Turn 8 Enemy: Attacked twice. Lethe now has 17 Gauge.

Turn 9 Player: Grasses. Lethe now has 27 gauge.

Turn 9 Enemy: Attacked thrice. Lethe now has 15 Gauge.

Turn 10 Player: Attacks. Lethe now has 6 gauge. End of chapter.

Kyza

Turn 1: Grasses

Turn 2: Waits.

Turn 3 Player: Attacks. Kyza now has 27 gauge.

Turn 3 Enemy: Attacked thrice. Kyza now has 18 gauge.

Turn 4 Player: Attacks. Kyza now has 11 gauge.

Turn 4 Enemy: Attacked twice. Kyza now has 5 gauge.

Turn 5 Player: Grasses. Kyza now has 16 Gauge.

Turn 5 Enemy: Attacked thrice. Kyza now has 7 gauge.

Turn 6 Player: Grasses. Kyza now has 18 gauge.

Turn 6 Enemy: Attacked twice. Kyza now has 12 Gauge.

Turn 7 Player: Grasses. Kyza now has 23 Gauge.

Turn 7 Enemy: Attacked thrice. Kyza now has 14 Gauge

Turn 8 Player: Grasses. Kyza now has 25 Gauge.

Turn 8 Enemy: Attacked thrice. Kyza now has 16 Gauge.

Turn 9 Player: Grasses. Kyza now has 27 Gauge.

Turn 9 Enemy: Attacked thrice. Kyza now has 18 Gauge.

Turn 10 Player: Attacks. Kyza now has 11 Gauge. End of chapter.

Kyza faced 22 rounds of combat, Lethe faced 16 rounds of combat. So, Kyza faced 1.5 more enemies, yet ends with more gauge, meaning if the chapter takes longer than 10 turns, Kyza's in the better position. This is ignoring healing, since Kyza has a better gauge and is more durable, he worries about the effects of healing less than Lethe, so can't afford to heal because of her pathetic gauge. If she heals instead of grassing, she faces little to no enemy phase. This is ignoring that Kyza is better with Reyson due to less gauge issues and that Kyza can use a speedwing or resolve to dig the nail in the coffin.Plus, he can afford to skip grasses on some of those turns, namely turn 7 player, but he would only be able to be attacked on teh enemy phase once but w/e. This is especially important as we are sharing olivi grasses between Ranulf/Lethe/Mordy/Kyza/Reyson.

This is a rediculous hypothietical, as this acts like everyone is seeing action every turn. You have the damn revert option, use it. The cat meter might run out fast, but it recovers at a significant rate. The break period for cats is quite a bit shorter than any other laguz. Don't treat laguz like armor knights. It's not hard to imagine that at times there will be breaks in the action, which case a cat can just revert with some meter still left, smoke up, then they'll be easily ready the next turn whereas a tiger might not. A cat only needs one grass to be ready to transform the next turn, due to the 10 meter a turn deal Narga said they had. If a laguz doesn't need to be transformed, there's no reason to keep them so.

This is also ignoring the fact that Kyza has significantly worse offense without that speedwing. Give him a speed wing, I'll give her an energy drop. First things to note. 1. Without that speed wing, Kyza is gaining strike level at twice as slow a rate as Lethe would be. 2. Lethe's already got some strike level built up from part 2. 3. The energy drop actually renders her stronger than him anyways, showing how much better an energy drop investment on Lethe is than giving a heavily competed for speedwing to Kyza.

Then factor in her Mordy support and bond, this support being nigh monopoly to her, her part 2, the fact that Kyza will need either 4 levels or another speed wing to be doubling again later while Lethe, as shown, only needs a reasonable amount of bexp, and that she gets S strike MUCH sooner.

Also, glad to see we're comparing Lethe and Ranulf, totally fair. Also with Ranulf, unless he's ORKOing things not mages, I hardly see how his offense is any better save against wyverns and generals. Not saying Ranulf is worse by any means, just I believe he's highly overrated.

Besides, if cat meter is so bad, why is Ranulf that high anyways? Drop him to mid with other forced power units like Muarim and Taur.

Edited August 3, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Florete]

Vika's not pretty useful. Her avoid is decent at best, her durability is garbage, and she's 3 chapters at best of being meh. Lethe's been proven she already has at least 3 chapters of being ok. Advantage Lethe. Lethe can also continue to be pretty decent in part 3, while Vika vanishes until part 4 where she's hot garbage. Advantage Lethe. Lethe can be given minor favoritism to be pretty decent pre-endgame part 4 as well, while Vika would need a huge amount. Advantage Lethe.

And that, my friend, is BS. She has 74 avoid and 38/14 HP/Def. Fighters on 1-7 3-4HKO her at <40 displayed, Myrmidons like 7HKO her, Armors are slightly weaker than Fighters and with less average Hit. All that threatens her at all is Archers, but she's in a much better position than most people. Take Zihark, who's High tier and has 57 avoid and 30/13 HP/Def. Even if he's managed to get a C with Nolan already, that brings him to 72 avoid, which is still less. She also has 25 MT, which is 1 less than Steel Sword Zihark. So, right now, Vika is comparably better than multiple High tier characters (I could throw Nolan and possibly Sothe in there as well).

Then factor in her Mordy support and bond, this support being nigh monopoly to her, her part 2, the fact that Kyza will need either 4 levels or another speed wing to be doubling again later while Lethe, as shown, only needs a reasonable amount of bexp, and that she gets S strike MUCH sooner.

That's not guaranteed. Personally, I've never been able to give them a support out of part as far as I remember, and even so, Water is a highly desirable affinity while Heaven is garbage until Endgame, but we aren't likely taking either of these Beasts to Endgame for various reasons.

Virtually anyone would like to support Mordecai, the best options being Janaff or Ulki. Ulki especially wants the offense boost, since he's mostly borderline. Then there's also Ranulf, who's forced anyway and is borderline against some enemies. Then there's any possible odd GM out that didn't get a partner yet.