OMG it's a tier list

[Narga_Rocks]

Ranulf has great offence and good defence. Lethe is average at best in both. She may double, but she attacks much less, here's what they do with their turns:

Lethe

Turn 1: Olivi grass

Turn 2: Wait.

Turn 3 Player: Attacks. Lethe now has 26 gauge.

Turn 3 Enemy: Attacked twice. Lethe now has 18 Gauge.

Turn 4 Player: Grasses. Lethe now has 28 Gauge.

Turn 4 Enemy: Attacked once. Lethe now has 24 gauge.

Turn 5 Player: Attacks. Lethe now has 15 gauge.

Turn 5 Enemy: Attacked twice. Lethe now has 7 gauge.

Turn 6 Player: Grasses. Lethe now has 17 gauge.

Turn 6 Enemy: Attacked once. Lethe now has 13 Gauge.

Turn 7 Player: Grasses. Lethe now has 23 Gauge.

Turn 7 Enemy: Attacked twice. Lethe now has 15 Gauge.

Turn 8 Player: Grasses. Lethe now has 25 Gauge.

Turn 8 Enemy: Attacked twice. Lethe now has 17 Gauge.

Turn 9 Player: Grasses. Lethe now has 27 gauge.

Turn 9 Enemy: Attacked thrice. Lethe now has 15 Gauge.

Turn 10 Player: Attacks. Lethe now has 6 gauge. End of chapter.

Kyza

Turn 1: Grasses

Turn 2: Waits.

Turn 3 Player: Attacks. Kyza now has 27 gauge.

Turn 3 Enemy: Attacked thrice. Kyza now has 18 gauge.

Turn 4 Player: Attacks. Kyza now has 11 gauge.

Turn 4 Enemy: Attacked twice. Kyza now has 5 gauge.

Turn 5 Player: Grasses. Kyza now has 16 Gauge.

Turn 5 Enemy: Attacked thrice. Kyza now has 7 gauge.

Turn 6 Player: Grasses. Kyza now has 18 gauge.

Turn 6 Enemy: Attacked twice. Kyza now has 12 Gauge.

Turn 7 Player: Grasses. Kyza now has 23 Gauge.

Turn 7 Enemy: Attacked thrice. Kyza now has 14 Gauge

Turn 8 Player: Grasses. Kyza now has 25 Gauge.

Turn 8 Enemy: Attacked thrice. Kyza now has 16 Gauge.

Turn 9 Player: Grasses. Kyza now has 27 Gauge.

Turn 9 Enemy: Attacked thrice. Kyza now has 18 Gauge.

Turn 10 Player: Attacks. Kyza now has 11 Gauge. End of chapter.

Kyza faced 22 rounds of combat, Lethe faced 16 rounds of combat. So, Kyza faced 1.5 more enemies, yet ends with more gauge, meaning if the chapter takes longer than 10 turns, Kyza's in the better position. This is ignoring healing, since Kyza has a better gauge and is more durable, he worries about the effects of healing less than Lethe, so can't afford to heal because of her pathetic gauge. If she heals instead of grassing, she faces little to no enemy phase. This is ignoring that Kyza is better with Reyson due to less gauge issues and that Kyza can use a speedwing or resolve to dig the nail in the coffin.Plus, he can afford to skip grasses on some of those turns, namely turn 7 player, but he would only be able to be attacked on teh enemy phase once but w/e. This is especially important as we are sharing olivi grasses between Ranulf/Lethe/Mordy/Kyza/Reyson.

And without that speedwing or resolve Lethe did more damage over that time. And more durable? If 4 hp and 1 def makes you more durable by enough to make a huge difference then a lot of people really suck now. If we are monitoring their gauge then we don't worry about untransformed, and untransformed they have the same def anyway, thanks to Mordy support. Plus while mages are somewhat rare they do exist, and are usually hanging around the physical units and one hit from a mage and Lethe is more durable than Kyza by a fair amount. 20 res vs. 10, or 21 vs 10 before Kyza gets a support, 21 vs 11 for a couple of chapters, then 22 vs. 11, then 22 vs. 12. That's without leveling, but Kyza has a .15 res growth, so that isn't going up soon.

Stat boosters aren't candy. A speedwing is also more contested than an energy drop. The speedwing could go to Titania, Haar, Boyd, Mordecai, possibly others. The resolve could go to Mordecai, and he wouldn't be sitting with 27 hp and 20 def and 85 avo with resolve active. 28 hp and 32 def seems much safer. And Mordy somehow manages to be a lower level despite being better and has a higher def growth and an already active support. Or we could give it to Haar before Haar gets promoted, and get 23 hp and 23 def, though Haar likely has made hp and def on levels by 3-4 anyway. The point is, of those three units Kyza is basically least durable at this point. (The avo for Mordy doesn't matter, and Haar's will be close to Kyza's anyway). And both Mordy or Haar will do more damage while resolving since they have more might and will double too. Heck, Kyza doesn't even ORKO swordmasters with his 30 mt and 33 AS with resolve. He 3HKOs, and they pull 8% crit on him. Shall we give Kyza resolve and adept? But with 30 mt he doesn't actually 3HKO warriors or halbs, well he does on some warriors. Still, Adept and Resolve just to sometimes match what Mordy and Haar can do with just resolve, and he has way less durability than Mordy while resolve is active, and about the same as Haar, if not less thanks to the def and res difference. The gap is 4 or less hp in favour of Kyza, but 4 or more def for Haar (if trained) and 4 more res, too.

An energy drop on the other hand, is wanted by Heather, Oscar, Shinon (sort of), Nephenee, possibly others. Of which, Heather doesn't get so much out of it unless we pilfer the DB's silver dagger, and so an A support nets her 31 mt with an energy drop at base level. Still, without an earth support she's not going to be very durable so she's out. Oscar also has a speed issue so there might be more benefit to giving the drop to Lethe anyway. Shinon is more for long term, because the drop now really only helps against halbs for ORKOing, and a +mt support might be sufficient for that, too. Nephenee could use it, but there could be two drops anyway (2-E, 3-5). Really, while Lethe doesn't actually need an energy drop she seems more able to get one than Kyza does resolve or a speedwing.

Even if you give him a speedwing and Lethe nothing, he's not doing that much better, considering she levels strike up earlier than him. And 22 combats per chapter? He's looking at 176 combats over the course of the game (from 3-4 to 4-5, 8 chapters for Kyza), on HM that likely puts him at #4 or #3 on most people's combat records. Well, since he won't kill too much he might not get there, but that number of combats is around what most see in their top 5, so I'm betting most units outside the top 5 see way less. Besides, there is downtime in 3-4 while moving, downtime in 3-7, and times where only two or three enemies are coming against your entire team in a single turn, so Kyza apparently faces all of them rather than Ike, Mia, Gatrie, Haar. In 3-8, maybe he can do it, but he's still facing the majority of enemy phase action for your entire team and Ike/Mia/crown!Gatrie can do better. In 3-10, there is again a little downtime partway through (between the paladin rush early and reaching the rest of the enemy), and 3-11 only fliers are likely pulling 3 per turn, others will get 3 sometimes, and generally only one or two ground units can do it at a time (again choosing Kyza over Ike/Mia/Gatrie/Titania. 3-E is short, and going up the middle you want to kill as many as quickly as possible, and there are some 2 rangers there, so again I don't see Kyza pulling your numbers. Just because he can face more, doesn't mean he will face more. It provides a bit more flexibility gauge-wise, but I don't see that covering the part 2 gap nor the opportunity cost of giving him resources better spent elsewhere, and certainly doesn't cover the difference if he doesn't get the wing or resolve.

[dondon151]

Besides, if cat meter is so bad, why is Ranulf that high anyways? Drop him to mid with other forced power units like Muarim and Taur.

Ranulf is Ulki with cat gauge and without flying, which is still pretty awesome.

[Narga_Rocks]

That's not guaranteed. Personally, I've never been able to give them a support out of part as far as I remember, and even so, Water is a highly desirable affinity while Heaven is garbage until Endgame, but we aren't likely taking either of these Beasts to Endgame for various reasons.

Virtually anyone would like to support Mordecai, the best options being Janaff or Ulki. Ulki especially wants the offense boost, since he's mostly borderline. Then there's also Ranulf, who's forced anyway and is borderline against some enemies. Then there's any possible odd GM out that didn't get a partner yet.

I think the question is does Mordy want a support? All it takes to get Mordy C Lethe by 3-4 would be 3 turns holding in 2-E. He doesn't double and takes no damage, so if he's sitting around walling I don't see why we can't do that. She won't miss out on too much action in that time. Or just park her next to him for 5 turns combined during 2-2 and 2-E. If you don't remember getting them to C it's likely just because you, like me and everyone else, never really cared about Lethe anymore in 3-4. Maybe I'm wrong, but it just seems so easy to get them to C that the only way to not do it is if they didn't spend time together. And if you weren't trying to build them then it would make sense. At which point, only Brom/Neph/Heather can get C by 3-4 with him, though that would take more work than Lethe since they are 02s so it isn't even as easy to get as Lethe. Besides, they have other options available earlier, and can have B's by 3-4. Well, there's an odd person out there, but most people don't deploy Heather all the time anyway.

Mordy x Lethe is always going to be one level higher than any other support until part 4, when his GM support partner finally finds his/her way to A. And it is more constraining to gain points and is inferior until part 4 anyway. I already went into great detail on why Mordy likes Lethe. As for Mordecai x Ranulf, at least it's a 01 so it grows at the same rate as Lethe, but for a guy who isn't going to benefit from 8 avo anyway Heaven is already superior to wind, and it will always be one level higher so it will reach A earlier.

(edit)

Oh, I looked at the HM stats.

Ranulf isn't exactly borderline. He comes up short. Mordy x Ranulf gets a C in 3-8, and an A in 4-2, also forcing Mordy into the Hawk army.

So without other help, Ranulf isn't getting str anyway (#5 growth so unlikely even with bexp) since he barely gets exp with battles. So he's looking at 37 mt, which he can achieve with any +mt support anyway, he doesn't have to break up Mordy x Lethe to do it. They'd both rather have each other.

37 mt solves nothing in 3-8, well, except turning half the generals from 5HKOs to 4HKOs, the other half are already 4HKOs (but we aren't relying on Ranulf to kill them alone, are we?). The halbs, warriors, and snipers all remain 3HKOs. In 3-10, one warrior is now ORKOd instead. In 3-11 it means zilch, and in 3-E it actually fixes two swordmasters, but if either managed 27 spd it doesn't matter. But halbs/warriors/snipers/paladins are still sitting pretty at 3HKO, and aside from 2 generals that switch from 5HKO to 4HKO the rest are also unchanged.

Basically, Ranulf needs an energy drop regardless (then he is borderline and +mt support fixes some), and since he's a cat, and cat gauge is the end all be all, giving him a drop is nuts.

Then 4-2 comes along and even an energy drop + A Mordy is only borderline on some warriors and snipers and fails on all halbs and pallys and dragonmasters anyway. A drop alone is sufficient for Falcoknights and all but one swordmaster anyway, aside from the whole needing speed for swordmasters anyway, so two stat boosters on a cat now.

An A Mordy without a drop also only helps on a small number of units, too. Basically, one fire sage, and 3 out of 9 swordmasters, and he needs a speed boost to double the swordmasters anyway.

In 4-3 it doesn't make any one rounding again, and Tigers don't become 3HKO regardless. Cat's basically stay mostly 3HKOd, and he needs speed for it to matter anyway because 3RKOd is bad so even though a couple of cats are 4RKOd without either a drop or Mordy I don't see how it matters. Ravens are borderline, but since it takes two speedwings to double anyway they are comparing 2RKOd to almost 2RKOd but 3 instead. Let's not talk about dragons (5 RKO with Mordy and a drop). Pelleas should be blicking them anyway.

(/edit)

Mordy simply gains more from Lethe than he would any other support (except maybe Earth, but Ike and Oscar don't want him anyway since they can have an A by the time they'd have a C Mordy), at least until part 4.

So if Mordy doesn't care about a support, then it becomes a matter of the other unit. If Mordy does care, and if Lethe is fielded, she's his best because of circumstance.

Ulki x Janaff is basically a warp speed growth. It can grow twice as fast as Ulki x Mordecai. I'm serious, in 2 chapters it takes 7 adjacents just to get a level for Ulki x Mordecai. 7 adjacents in 1 chapter can achieve a level for Ulki x Janaff. Or 6 adjacents and one shove, or after getting C the next levels could be 5 adjacents and one carry. And they both have canto and crazy move so it's easy. They could have A by 3-E rather easily if you tried. Ulki x Mordecai isn't coming up with B until part 4, and A until 4-E. Just saying I see more benefit to Ulki x Janaff, since he'll have an extra mt in 3-E if you try, and either way if one of Ulki or Mordy don't make it to 4-E then the eventual A (3mt/3def/3res rather than 2) will never matter. Anyway, it's basically a matter of us caring/not caring about Mordecai himself where supports are concerned, because if we are fielding both Lethe and Mordecai it just seems more beneficial to get boosts on Lethe and get Mordecai his boosts earlier. Otherwise Lethe is basically supportless, and Mordy is either taking the inferior (supportwise) Ranulf or taking someone that won't give a better support until part 4, and will in fact give inferior bonuses in 3-11 and 3-E.

Plus, even if Mordy is taking Ranulf or Ulki, wouldn't he like a C Lethe for 3-4 and 3-7 since he won't get C Ranulf until 3-8? Or take C Lethe in 3-4 and 3-7, then B Lethe in 3-8 and 3-10, since C Ulki likely won't be available until 3-11? At which point, btw, he's comparing A Lethe to C Ulki, so he still gets +1 mt, +1 def/res, and +27 hit over what C Ulki gives. We are basically siding with what is inferior to Ulki and Mordecai and Lethe over what is superior for them all. Namely, Ulki x Janaff and Mordy x Lethe.

Edited August 3, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

I'll admit Danved isn't that useful in 2-3/2-E, but Lethe isn't very good in 2-2 or 2-E herself, so it comes down to Danved being good in 3-9 as opposed to Lethe being worse than most of the GMs.

You're weighing all of this on one chapter? Come on, Lethe's nto very good in 2-2 or 2-E? She's among one of your more durable units aside form like Haar, Mordy and Brom, while her offense is about as good as Lucia's. I'd hardly call that nto very good. Certainly better than Danved doing balls nothing part 2.

As for being worse than the GMs, I'd like to see proof of that outside of "lolcat". In my opinion, she's quite mid. She's beating Oscar in every way possible, she's durably better than Boyd by quite a bit, just because she doesn't compare to gods doesn't mean she's auto-shit. If that's the case, why bother having anyone below upper mid matter?

Being underleveled also means that Danved can gain levels much more quickly. Furthermore, your comparison is assuming base Danved, which is pretty silly. Danved's Exp gain isn't exceptionally high, but he should gain enough to level up once in 2-3/2-E. Then in 3-9, we have 2 Paragons to spread out in the whole CRK and we aren't using many of them, so Danved can easily gain another 3-4 levels.

DO tell me how he got a level against unpromoted units when he's the lowest moving unit on your team outside the ally bishops, and in 2-E, the most action he's seeing is trying to hit the great silver lance general. As for Paragon, he has to compete with Calill and Marcia, who are significantly higher, and can put it to better use in the long term.

Lethe might not be at base, but she should be pretty close. She might have more chapters than Danved, but she only gains 1 Exp per kill, so she hasn't gained much more than a level. Let's do a different comparison:

22 Lethe (S Strike)

52 HP 31 Atk 26 AS (rounded up it's 12.5) 18 Def 20 Res

13/0 Danved (forged Steel Lance)

42 HP 34 Atk 23 AS 17 Def 13 Res

Offensively, it's almost a tie, he does better against enemies that both/neither double, she does better when doubling(if we would round down, she'd only beat Danved by one in AS). She has 10 HP/1 Def/7 Res over him, substantial leads, but not overwhelming. Danved also has access to 1-2 range and doesn't have to deal with gauge, so it's only a small victory for Lethe really.

What, no support? Lethe cold easily have an A with Mordy with how fast it grows. 2 Def and 2 ATK. Best Danved could hope for is a C Marcia.

Another thing you aren't mentioning is that 23 AS is not doubling much. His offense is significantly worse by that standard.

On top of that, 4 levels in the course of 3 chapters , 2 of which he'd not doing a goddamn thing? Get serious now.

Now onto a later part 4 comparison:

23 Lethe(SS strike)

53 HP 38 Ak 26 AS 20 Def 20 Res

20/1 Danved (forged Silver Lance)

49 HP 44 Atk 28 AS 22 Def 19 Res

Defensively it's about a tie (2 Def as opposed to 4 HP and 1 Res). Offensively, 6 Atk/2 AS/ 1-2 range possible/no gauge makes Danved the clear winner. Sadly, Danved is still leveling up faster than Lethe. Poor Lethe. He also gives out better supports, Fire>Heaven.

Now you're giving him 9 levels over the course of 7 chapters, 2 of which he's doing dick? You're absolutely rediculous. How about we give him resolve while we're at it?

Yeah, great point in the affinity, but if PoR taught us anything, it's not what the affinity is but what bonuses you get and when. Danved's not pulling any support at a reasonable rate, at least not one that wants him. By now, Marcia, his only real viable support, spread her wings and is out flying in proper routes. If you wanna give him a support, better explain who and why. At least with Mordy I have a reasonable reason.

You could argue that we can give Lethe an Energy Drop for more Atk, but we could give a Speedwing to make Danved double more as well (there's one that drops in 3-9 so he has equal access as the rest of the GMs). We could give Lethe BEXP of course, but we can also give it to Danved, who will require less to level up.

Nevermind that damn near everyone wants a speedwing, even Ike and Haar. At least Lethe can put an energy drop to good use. As for the BEXP, I gave a reason as to how she can choke down a reasonable amount and put it to good use. Danved on the other hand ahs a problem with speed being tied for 3rd of his growths, meaning he's not anywhere near as garunteed to land speed as much as Lethe is.

So yeah, I don't see Lethe clearly beating Danved.

Well you tried to give him everything under the sun, while Lethe got nothing. Lethe can use Paragon too, ya know. In fact, she can put many skills to better use than he. Health skills importantly, like Wrath. She can even put Adept to better use in the meantime (not that I'm saying she should get it ;;>>)

Vika compares more favorably to the the DB than Lethe or Danved do to the units in Part 2 or the GMs, which is the gist of it really. She may not be "clutch", but neither is Lethe.

Lethe can be of good use in part 2 and 3, while Vika has a bit of part 1, then returns to suck at endgame.

And that, my friend, is BS. She has 74 avoid and 38/14 HP/Def. Fighters on 1-7 3-4HKO her at <40 displayed, Myrmidons like 7HKO her, Armors are slightly weaker than Fighters and with less average Hit. All that threatens her at all is Archers, but she's in a much better position than most people. Take Zihark, who's High tier and has 57 avoid and 30/13 HP/Def. Even if he's managed to get a C with Nolan already, that brings him to 72 avoid, which is still less. She also has 25 MT, which is 1 less than Steel Sword Zihark. So, right now, Vika is comparably better than multiple High tier characters (I could throw Nolan and possibly Sothe in there as well).

Someone forgot that Michaiah basically is always in the negative with leadership, and that Vika only exists for the prison, the swamp, and the Jarod map. 2 rather short maps, where you start getting gods like Muarim, Nailah and the BK. It's a couple of short chapters then 1-E where you can't be doing good unless you're nigh godly. She then vanishes while Lethe can contribute actual positive use as shown, only to have Vika return to be god-awful part 4's endgame. Hell, I showed that Lethe can even still be semi-usable part 4. 2 chapters of utility does not automatically better than a unit who can actually be good.

That's not guaranteed. Personally, I've never been able to give them a support out of part as far as I remember, and even so, Water is a highly desirable affinity while Heaven is garbage until Endgame, but we aren't likely taking either of these Beasts to Endgame for various reasons.

Yet they are eachother's fastest support, and even Narga can tell you that it's easily possible to get a C by part 3. Water is a very desirable affinity indeed, but here's the thing. 1. Lethe can put the bonuses to good use. 2. Mordy could not give a shit who he supports as no matter what he's gonna be hitting hard, never dying, never dodging. Fact is unless you're someone who's doubling (basically, if you're Shinon), you aren't getting an offense support. The point is someone's getting those bonuses, and no one gives Mordy any significant boost otherwise. Lethe gets first dibs due to speed and availability.

Virtually anyone would like to support Mordecai, the best options being Janaff or Ulki. Ulki especially wants the offense boost, since he's mostly borderline. Then there's also Ranulf, who's forced anyway and is borderline against some enemies. Then there's any possible odd GM out that didn't get a partner yet.

Janaff and Ulki have eachother, and are lightning fast as well. Why would you bother supporting them with other people? Both function practically the same, both can't not get good boosts (lol, Water and Thunder)...Do you people just unreasonably hate Lethe?

[Florete]

As for being worse than the GMs, I'd like to see proof of that outside of "lolcat". In my opinion, she's quite mid. She's beating Oscar in every way possible, she's durably better than Boyd by quite a bit, just because she doesn't compare to gods doesn't mean she's auto-shit. If that's the case, why bother having anyone below upper mid matter?

Her gauge means she has trouble staying in battle, and since her offense sucks, it means she has time where she's sucking against enemies and times where she's dying against enemies. Sounds like shit to me.

DO tell me how he got a level against unpromoted units when he's the lowest moving unit on your team outside the ally bishops, and in 2-E, the most action he's seeing is trying to hit the great silver lance general. As for Paragon, he has to compete with Calill and Marcia, who are significantly higher, and can put it to better use in the long term.

wtf is this? Just because Danved has the lowest move doesn't suddenly mean he won't get any kills. He's statistically solid for 2-3 and can also climb up the gap in the chapter. He'll get kills for sure.

And if we're using Danved, it's unlikely both Marcia and Calill are also in play, so getting Paragon is a non issue.

Another thing you aren't mentioning is that 23 AS is not doubling much. His offense is significantly worse by that standard.

Yes, but 24 doubles most everything in 3-11. He needs 1 more Spd and he's pretty much always better offensively.

On top of that, 4 levels in the course of 3 chapters , 2 of which he'd not doing a goddamn thing? Get serious now.

1

Now you're giving him 9 levels over the course of 7 chapters, 2 of which he's doing dick? You're absolutely rediculous. How about we give him resolve while we're at it?

Due to being underleveled, he has high experience gain, so that's not as much as you think. Also, Cynthia was nice and gave Lethe SS strike, which is actually unlikely by that point.

Yeah, great point in the affinity, but if PoR taught us anything, it's not what the affinity is but what bonuses you get and when. Danved's not pulling any support at a reasonable rate, at least not one that wants him. By now, Marcia, his only real viable support, spread her wings and is out flying in proper routes. If you wanna give him a support, better explain who and why. At least with Mordy I have a reasonable reason.

If they go Tibarn's or Ike's route, the move difference isn't going to mean much, and Marcia likes the bonuses because she wants +3 atk with 30% Str growth.

Nevermind that damn near everyone wants a speedwing, even Ike and Haar. At least Lethe can put an energy drop to good use. As for the BEXP, I gave a reason as to how she can choke down a reasonable amount and put it to good use. Danved on the other hand ahs a problem with speed being tied for 3rd of his growths, meaning he's not anywhere near as garunteed to land speed as much as Lethe is.

Lots of people want an Energy Drop as well. Nephenee, Oscar, Shinon, Ulki, etc. all have ORKOing issues yet double pretty often, or all the time.

Well you tried to give him everything under the sun, while Lethe got nothing. Lethe can use Paragon too, ya know. In fact, she can put many skills to better use than he. Health skills importantly, like Wrath. She can even put Adept to better use in the meantime (not that I'm saying she should get it ;;>>)

Let's give Lethe Paragon so she can gain 2 experience instead of 1! That sounds efficient.

She then vanishes while Lethe can contribute actual positive use as shown,

Wtf is this? I showed how Lethe sucks completely in part 3 even when fed an Energy Drop. That's not positive.

2. Mordy could not give a shit who he supports as no matter what he's gonna be hitting hard, never dying, never dodging.

And that's the selling point. If Mordy doesn't care who he supports, assuming any individual supports him can be assumed to be favoritism. It becomes a point for him that he has an awesome affinity to give out, not a point for Lethe that he's an option since everyone wants him but there's nothing specific he wants, as you've just told me. So why should Lethe get him?

Janaff and Ulki have eachother, and are lightning fast as well. Why would you bother supporting them with other people? Both function practically the same, both can't not get good boosts (lol, Water and Thunder)...Do you people just unreasonably hate Lethe?

Janaff does not give atk. Also, there's the possibility one is played and not the other, in which case the Hawk wants Mordecai. And yes, I am not a fan of Lethe.

Edited August 3, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[-Cynthia-]

I did have a counter argument, but Red Fox pretty much said exactly what I was going to say. Except I had a more detailed argument of why saying Lethe> Oscar in every parameter is just absurd. She beats him by 10 HP and like 1 AS(he has a large Avo lead due to supports), but he has a 12 Mt lead or so, plus 1-2 range, access to Horseslayer and such etc.

But yeah, the Ulki & Janaff want each other argument only applies if we're assuming both in play, which doesn't always happen. If we're just using one, that hawk will want Mordecai, and Mordy prefers them over Lethe because Atk+ Def> hit.

I also don't hate Lethe, I just don't think RD Lethe is very good. I definitely don't consider myself a Danved or Vika fan though.

Edited August 3, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Shadow Mir]

I also don't think that RD Lethe is good. And I'm not a Danved or Vika fan either.

[Narga_Rocks]

Yes, but 24 doubles most everything in 3-11. He needs 1 more Spd and he's pretty much always better offensively.

Well, I wouldn't say most everything. Warriors, halbs, snipers, swordmasters. 16 units, of which 12 can be doubled by Lethe.

Due to being underleveled, he has high experience gain, so that's not as much as you think. Also, Cynthia was nice and gave Lethe SS strike, which is actually unlikely by that point.

Well, S by end of 3-7, and 5 chapters to average 8 battles from 3-8 to 3-E. If you are actually attempting to use her seriously, I don't see SS being unlikely by part 4.

If they go Tibarn's or Ike's route, the move difference isn't going to mean much, and Marcia likes the bonuses because she wants +3 atk with 30% Str growth.

She can fly all over 4-2 like crazy, with thickets and trees and stuff. It's dangerous if done badly, but it can be done. And 4-5 is so much swamp and she can go around drawing things there. Of course, I'd rather have Elincia do it, but Elincia could maybe use the help.

Lots of people want an Energy Drop as well. Nephenee, Oscar, Shinon, Ulki, etc. all have ORKOing issues yet double pretty often, or all the time.

Ulki should take the bexp and tear, because even though it's expensive 40 mt from the drop isn't ORKOing much more anyway. The drop seems like asking more than the bexp, given how the gms mostly use bexp from slowplaying so they don't take much. Shinon only needs it for halbs in part 3, and then in part 4 he could've just been slowplayed in part 3 to cap tier 2. Seems like a waste. Oscar could use it, sure, but without a crown he isn't doubling all the time anyway so again bexp could boost the strength as much for part 4. Nephenee is the best bet, but there are two. Just saying a wing has as much or more competition. Maybe not more, but it is certainly harder to justify giving Danved the wing and Lethe nothing than giving each something.

Wtf is this? I showed how Lethe sucks completely in part 3 even when fed an Energy Drop. That's not positive.

2 rounding isn't exactly sucking completely.

And that's the selling point. If Mordy doesn't care who he supports, assuming any individual supports him can be assumed to be favoritism. It becomes a point for him that he has an awesome affinity to give out, not a point for Lethe that he's an option since everyone wants him but there's nothing specific he wants, as you've just told me. So why should Lethe get him?

It isn't that Mordy doesn't care about supports, just that he doesn't care who, he still wants the bonuses he gives out. Fortunately for Lethe, she provides those bonuses 2 chapters earlier than anyone else, and 2 to 4 chapters earlier than Ulki/Janaff do. Seems like a win to me.

Janaff does not give atk. Also, there's the possibility one is played and not the other, in which case the Hawk wants Mordecai. And yes, I am not a fan of Lethe.

Yeah, but Ulki does. Ulki doesn't gain so much from 3 vs. 2. And he gets more avo this way, and gets it all much faster. With more avo, crossbows are less bad and his avo drops more things to 0. Not healing Ulki is better than healing Ulki.

But yeah, the Ulki & Janaff want each other argument only applies if we're assuming both in play, which doesn't always happen. If we're just using one, that hawk will want Mordecai, and Mordy prefers them over Lethe because Atk+ Def> hit.

And why do they only want Mordy? They could take anyone who is supportless or would get something better. Mordy is not supportless and will not be getting something better.

As for Mordy, why would he prefer them? He has A Lethe by the time he could have C Hawk. Why would he prefer them over Lethe? He gets 1 mt, 1 def, 1 res, and 27 hit over C Ulki, and 1 mt, 1 def, 1 res, 27 hit and -3 avo over C Janaff. How is C Ulki/Janaff better than A Lethe by any stretch of the imagination? Then by 4-P/1/2, when he finally pulls off B Hawk, he's getting 27 hit with A Lethe over what B Ulki gives, and the rest cancels. With B Janaff, he's getting +1 mt and +27 hit vs. 5 avo with C Janaff. How is that superior? The only time Mordecai might prefer A Hawk is if he and the hawk goes to 4-E, which likely isn't happening.

For pre 4-E, I'm saying Hit% > nothing for A Lethe > B Ulki, Atk + Def/Res + hit > nothing for A Lethe > C Ulki,

and Atk + Hit > 5 Avo for A Lethe > B Janaff, and Atk + Def/Res + hit > 3 avo for A Lethe > C Janaff.

Affinity isn't everything, circumstance outweighs it sometimes.

Unless you value 4-E more than 4 pre 4-E chapters, and assume Mordy and the hawk is going.

Edited August 3, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

Before I go any further, I want to see these numbers for Mordy supporting Lethe, the Hawks, and Ranulf. And I mean turn counts. Remember that MordecaixUlki B might as well give the same bonuses as MordecaixLethe A.

[dondon151]

The problem with Lethe getting SS strike is that her gauge doesn't let her see as much combat as other laguz.

[Narga_Rocks]

Before I go any further, I want to see these numbers for Mordy supporting Lethe, the Hawks, and Ranulf. And I mean turn counts. Remember that MordecaixUlki B might as well give the same bonuses as MordecaixLethe A.

?

Turn counts? So 7 for 2-2, >10 for 2-E, 10 for 3-4, 12 (maybe 13) for 3-7?

Or what it takes to get to C, B, A?

As for MxU B vs. MxL A, I don't think Mordecai will always have 100% hit with 9x2 skl and 15 lck, though thankfully the luck has a good growth. Still, 36 + 15 + 15 + 90 = 156, so he can drop to 146, and enemies in part 3 frequently have ~60 avo, which can jump to 70. An A Lethe means no matter what Mordecai has 100% hit rate. Otherwise he can drop to 80 or even 70 (swordmasters on best). I don't think it should be completely ignored.

As for numbers, he's a 01 support with Lethe. C is pretty easy in two chapters, and they should both get the chapter bonuses in 2-2 and 2-E. So a C by 3-4 takes 18 points and a shove is worth 2, and adjacent 4, and a hold 6. Not exactly hard to manage. Then she's sitting at C in 3-4 when everyone else is building from scratch. Ranulf has wind, so even at the same level he'd only be giving a small amount of avo towards Mordecai that Lethe wouldn't. Sadly for Ranulf, he's two chapters behind. Anything Mordecai x Ranulf do to get to C would get Mordecai x Lethe to B, considering both are 01 growths. As such, in 3-4 and 3-7 MxR needs 18 points worth of shoves/adjacents/holds, and MxL need 17 (effectively the same since they can't heal each other). As for smite, I'll have to look when I get to part 2 to see if it's worth the same as shove or the same as heal/sacrifice. Really, it wouldn't change much either way, just help Lethe a bit.

So, when MxR get C, MxL get B, when MxR get B, MxL get A. As such, for 3-8 and 3-10 the supports would be even, aside from the increased accuracy Lethe gives him (18 hit vs. 3 hit and 3 avo). In 3-11 and 3-E, Lethe gives more mt, def/res, and 27 hit vs. 5 hit and 5 avo. MxL gets more benefit in 3-11 and 3-E, and Mordy's more accurate in 3-8 and 3-10 this way. And Lethe might as well have a monopoly on 3-4 and 3-7 anyway. Only competing with the odd unit out from Brom/Nephenee/Heather, and they could've had a C with a GM by 3-4 anyway. Plus all of them are 02 growths which take more work in part 2, though 7 adjacents in 2-E is simple enough as well.

As for Ulki x Janaff, they start as ally units in 3-7 after turn 1 or 2. I'm soon going to do 1-7 so I can test the LEA but I'm pretty sure they won't be getting a chapter bonus. (oh, there exists a small possibility that they could get a chapter bonus with each other, but likely not with anyone else. Since they aren't there on turn 1, though, I don't think they even get one with each other. If they do, though, then we are easily looking at Ulki x Janaff being even more superspeed growth compared to everyone else so it almost becomes silly to support either with someone else if both are used.)

As such, in order to accomplish a C support by 3-10, they'd only have the 3-8 chapter bonus to work with. So since they are both 02s for Mordecai, that's 35 points from shoving/adjacent/holding needed to reach C by 3-10. Considering a shove is worth 1, adjacent 3, and hold 5, I don't see it being easy. It's doable, but it takes 12 adjacents over 2 chapters, or 11 and 1 shove, or 7 holds (lots of lost enemy and player phases for them). I suppose with Canto you could swing it, but it just seems like so much more work than getting it by 3-11. Of course, if we go by the crazy 20 turn bexp requirement, 12 out of 32 turns isn't so bad, but I don't think we are assuming 20 turns for 3-8. Still, at best they are looking at C in 3-10, B in 3-E, and A in 4-3/4/5. Lethe gives C in 3-4, B in 3-8, A in 3-11.

Then they are looking at 2 chapters per support level, just like Lethe, but needing 19 points on a 02 growth, so 7 adjacents per 2 maps. Though with canto that's easy, so I'm not complaining about that.

Still, she always makes Mordy virtually immune to gauge, and by 3-11 makes him completely immune. Not only that, in 3-11 the bonus is completely superior, but I suppose in 4-3/4/5 the bonus is slightly inferior, though if Mordy misses an attack even once he gave up more damage in that one hit than the +1 from Ulki would've given him the entire chapter.

As for Janaff, he can't even provide that +1 mt, just an extra def point in 4-3/4/5. So Mordy's looking at losing +1 mt in 3-11, 3-E, 4-P/1/2. And always having a chance to miss. The only benefit is up to 8 avo and in 1 chapter he gets +1 def.

And that's assuming we are willing to pull 12 adjacents in 2 chapters, which seems more restrictive strategy-wise than Mordy x Lethe would be (only 5). Not to mention that it takes 9 adjacents in one chapter for Mordy x Lethe to pull a level in just a chapter. So if we spend extra time in 3-8 for Mordy x Hawk, then Mordy x Lethe could have an A for 3-10, which is another chapter in which Mordy x Lethe do more for Mordy than Mordy x Hawk.

If we aren't willing, then we go back to what I was saying earlier.

Namely, 3-11 for C Mordy x Hawk, 4-P/1/2 for B Mordy x Hawk, and 4-E for A Mordy x Hawk. So Mordy x Hawk is basically never in comparison to Mordy x Lethe B, either way, really.

Just saying the circumstances propel Lethe x Mordy to a better support status than it would be otherwise, considering Mordy x Lethe is never worse than Mordy x Hawk, aside from a possibility (if Mordy doesn't miss) of Ulki x Mordy being better in one single chapter (4-3/4/5).

Edited August 3, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

Alright, I can accept LethexMordecai, although mostly because I remembered Mordecai's Hit issues, since I'm pretty sure he gets almost nothing out of +2 atk and def.

Well, I wouldn't say most everything. Warriors, halbs, snipers, swordmasters. 16 units, of which 12 can be doubled by Lethe.

All the Paladins, Sages, Bishops, and Generals have 20 or less AS though, and they make up the majority of enemies.

Well, S by end of 3-7, and 5 chapters to average 8 battles from 3-8 to 3-E. If you are actually attempting to use her seriously, I don't see SS being unlikely by part 4.

S by 3-7? That's nuts. That gives her 2-3, 2-E, and 3-4 to get 35 battles in, and all doubling. 2-3 and 2-E have limited Grass so keeping her transformed is even more of a problem than normal. She's not getting 12 battles per map.

She can fly all over 4-2 like crazy, with thickets and trees and stuff. It's dangerous if done badly, but it can be done. And 4-5 is so much swamp and she can go around drawing things there. Of course, I'd rather have Elincia do it, but Elincia could maybe use the help.

You said yourself it's dangerous to do so. Just because she can doesn't mean she will, and from my experience in this game, it wouldn't be a good idea.

Ulki should take the bexp and tear, because even though it's expensive 40 mt from the drop isn't ORKOing much more anyway. The drop seems like asking more than the bexp, given how the gms mostly use bexp from slowplaying so they don't take much. Shinon only needs it for halbs in part 3, and then in part 4 he could've just been slowplayed in part 3 to cap tier 2. Seems like a waste. Oscar could use it, sure, but without a crown he isn't doubling all the time anyway so again bexp could boost the strength as much for part 4. Nephenee is the best bet, but there are two. Just saying a wing has as much or more competition. Maybe not more, but it is certainly harder to justify giving Danved the wing and Lethe nothing than giving each something.

Lethe was taking a good deal to get to 22, and Ulki takes a lot more to get from 28 to 30. I don't see how that kind of BEXP dump is better than one Energy drop.

2 rounding isn't exactly sucking completely.

It is when it's against weaker enemies and as a result of using an Energy Drop.

Yeah, but Ulki does. Ulki doesn't gain so much from 3 vs. 2. And he gets more avo this way, and gets it all much faster. With more avo, crossbows are less bad and his avo drops more things to 0. Not healing Ulki is better than healing Ulki.

Ulki doesn't need more avoid.

EDIT: Moving her above Oliver for now.

Edited August 3, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[nflchamp]

Question: does Lethe get wexp for fighting she does in 3-1 as a partner unit?

[Narga_Rocks]

Alright, I can accept LethexMordecai, although mostly because I remembered Mordecai's Hit issues, since I'm pretty sure he gets almost nothing out of +2 atk and def.

Well, he gets more out of the atk and def if he also has resolve. Otherwise I'm not sure he gets much. Even with resolve active he's looking at 32 def + levels. I guess by A Mordy x Lethe he'll have at least two levels, so 29 hp and 34+2 def. He actually takes some damage without the +2 from the support, but probably not enough to matter, and hawks would still give +1. Still, the mt part would have more effect now that he's doubling. He might pull off some ORKOs with it, but once he gets S strike he has 43 at base supportless, so stuff tends to die anyway. But he doesn't double in part 2, so he has a longer road to S strike than Lethe, even with resolve in 3-4, 3-7, 3-8, etc. The support means slightly more damage to things before S strike, which could be the difference between Mist KOing and not. Leveling our healer to preserve her 2RKOdness is a good thing.

Admittedly, without resolve he's just not missing anymore thanks to Lethe, because the +1s don't matter for a guy with 57 hps 32 def and 38/43 mt.

All the Paladins, Sages, Bishops, and Generals have 20 or less AS though, and they make up the majority of enemies.

Yeah, I basically listed every single enemy that it doesn't. I know the <=20 AS make the majority. I think 70% to 80% (He doubles 43/60 with 24 AS, she doubles 55/60). Just a semantics issue, really. I don't consider it "almost everything" unless it's like 90% or something.

S by 3-7? That's nuts. That gives her 2-3, 2-E, and 3-4 to get 35 battles in, and all doubling. 2-3 and 2-E have limited Grass so keeping her transformed is even more of a problem than normal. She's not getting 12 battles per map.

End of. Beginning of is nuts, agreed. Still, kirsche's complaint about gauge involved 16 battles for Lethe in 10 turns, without reyson help (matters for 3-7, though she isn't likely to get vigored when there are better options). Anyway, I'm going with ~30 battles in those chapters, considering how long 2-E is, but I could understand 26 to 30. It isn't inconceivable to expect S by the end of 3-7 or early 3-8. It's only about 8 to 9 on average, and since 2-E can bump the average up and 2-2 brings it down, 8 or 9 is fair. It appears I miscounted stupidly, though, and said 5 chapters from 3-8 to 3-E, which may have caused the confusion. She needs 10 per to SS by the start of 4-P/1/2, which I admit might not happen. So 4-3/4/5 is probably better, unless we push things.

Still, early 3-8 for S, and 4-3/4/5 for SS, or late 4-P/1/2.

You said yourself it's dangerous to do so. Just because she can doesn't mean she will, and from my experience in this game, it wouldn't be a good idea.

If done badly it's dangerous. That also makes it less advantageous, true, but the main thing is there's ranulf, Elincia, Tibarn, and other laguz/fliers you could've brought because of 4-5. Plenty of reasons for Marcia to shoot ahead of non-laguz ground units (remember: tonnes of thickets) to keep up with the others. Since Marcia's best routes are Micaiah and Tibarn, I think it matters. Especially flying in 4-5 or 4-3. Plus there is wyrmslayer usage in 4-3 to consider. Not many fliers have swords (falcos and Elincia), and Marcia > Tanith > Sigrun (> not present) anyway.

Lethe was taking a good deal to get to 22, and Ulki takes a lot more to get from 28 to 30. I don't see how that kind of BEXP dump is better than one Energy drop.

Ulki takes 46%, which is a lot, and can maybe drop it to 43% with usage in 3-7, or less if we let him kick/punch something once on top of the transformed 1 point per battle getting. The point is, while it takes out a huge chunk now, we aren't exactly burning up bexp right now anyway. This isn't PoR where we can dump 2 or 3 levels in someone to get an immediate boost (in 3-8 before they cap enough stuff, anyway, plus it's a huge cost for them to do that in this game compared to PoR, too). Only Ulki and Janaff can pull that off. He gets a bigger boost from bexp than a drop, and there is only 3 drops, we'll get lots of bexp later to make up for what he took now, he won't need any more afterwards. Nobody can ever make use of the drop Ulki would take away, and Ulki doesn't use it as well as he'd use Tear.

It is when it's against weaker enemies and as a result of using an Energy Drop.

The only things she doesn't 2 round are generals and some bosses and dragonmasters. The rest are 3 or 4 HKOd. Once she pulls S strike, even if it takes until 3-10, she's now pulling 3HKO with an energy drop on warriors, snipers, halbs.

Basically, until S strike a drop means 2RKOing halbs, warriors, snipers, a feat that Haar can't top (he does more damage, but 2 rounds anyway) until promotion (when he'll ORKO if he previously received a speedwing or bexp to cap tier 2 speed). Then when she grabs S strike, she starts 3HKOing, which means she's even matching the damage of most units that don't double, if not beating. It is not just against weaker enemies.

Without an energy drop, on the other hand, before S strike she's 3RKOing halbs in 3-7, but still 2RKOing warriors. So the halb thing is not so great. On the other hand, once she pulls S it's back to 2 rounding without an energy drop, though halbs are borderline and warriors are 4HKO not 3HKO, ditto paladins being 4HKO not 3HKO.

Well, not doubling swordmasters can mean 3RKOing them, too, if she doesn't have a drop + S strike. Still, though, she pulls 2 rounding on a fairly high number of enemies. Certainly over 60% of them, anyway, and depending on general/dragonmaster/swordmaster presence in the chapter she can pull 2 rounding on 70+%.

Ulki doesn't need more avoid.

I like zeros. He'll still get hit otherwise. He doesn't need more avoid, but that's only because we can heal him if he gets hit once or twice. Lots of units are great when they only need to be infrequently healed. Ulki can get even better. Besides, once he reaches 2HKO from crossbows, while I can allow him to get attacked by one, I'd still rather see 20% listed than 28% listed, or something, so that I'm less likely to need him to run away.

EDIT: Moving her above Oliver for now.

Yay. Lethe > Kyza. Mission accomplished. Now to wait for Vykan.

Question: does Lethe get wexp for fighting she does in 3-1 as a partner unit?

Forgot about that. We'd have to actually let her fight rather than target and hide her, but yeah she'd get wexp. Even enemies get wexp. Skrimir gets some too for 3-P and 3-E, by the way. And Ranulf for 3-P. Or I think they all do, anyway.

Edited August 3, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

Wait, she gains strike level as an NPC!? Bahahahaha! I knew I was on to something! Thanks much Narga for the back-up...er...the main part of the argument ;;>>

...Anywhosle, For some reason this got me thinking of Lyre for some crazy ass reason. She only needs 2 levels to get her speed going, and she levels like she's 20/14, which is like what Oscar and Shinon should be at that point in time if not higher. She can get strike level in that NPC chapter too, the bond support between them offers 10 crit...As for doubling later, all she needs is 1 more level to do that again.

...Basically saying that Elite might help ;;>>

...Don't kill me.

[_____]

Suggesting that Lethe and Lyre fight in 3-1 is a bit absurd. Even if they do fight, they'll be killed in a very short amount of time.

[grandjackal]

I'm hopeless with the cats, aren't I? I know Lyre sucks, but...give her a chance! T.T

Well either way, seems I can't really back this up with anything either, not even supports. Her fastest is blehKyza, and Ranulf is an FF 02, which isn't significantly faster than a normal support (I think...), as much as Ranulf would love an avoid and defense boost...

As for Lyre and Lethe dying easy, they don't. Well, not Lethe anyways ;;>> Lyre's not Fiona easy to kill ya know. Her main problem is just her offense is hot garbage. 10 from the bond and Wrath would help, but...Again, I guess I'm sort of hopeless here.

[Florete]

Wait, she gains strike level as an NPC!? Bahahahaha! I knew I was on to something! Thanks much Narga for the back-up...er...the main part of the argument ;;>>

...Anywhosle, For some reason this got me thinking of Lyre for some crazy ass reason. She only needs 2 levels to get her speed going, and she levels like she's 20/14, which is like what Oscar and Shinon should be at that point in time if not higher. She can get strike level in that NPC chapter too, the bond support between them offers 10 crit...As for doubling later, all she needs is 1 more level to do that again.

...Basically saying that Elite might help ;;>>

...Don't kill me.

I'm pretty sure we already went over this. Check out this from smash's ranking topic:

- Untransformed base level Muarim would beat transformed base level Lyre in a fight regardless of who went first. 58 HP/15 def/28 att vs 47 HP/14 def/22 att. Muarim does 14 damage (4HKO) and Lyre does double 7s (9HKO).

- Untransformed base Mordy could beat transformed base Lyre in a fight regardless of who went first. 57 HP/24 att/16 def. Mordy 5HKOs and Lyre 10HKOs and doubles. Mordy would always get his 5th attack before Lyre gets her 10th.

- Halfshifted base level Volug would beat transformed base level Lyre in a fight regardless of who went first. 49 HP/25 att/13 def vs 47 HP/22 att/14 def. Volug 5HKOs and Lyre 6HKOs, and Lyre can't double him (19 AS vs 22 AS).

- If Lyre had wildheart and joined in 1-5 with Volug, she would still be one of the worst units on the team.

- Base level Nolan with a steel axe has more att than base level Lyre.

- Transformed, base level Lyre only has 2 more def than Reyson. And the same speed.

- Base Lyre can't 2HKO base Soren, who has 28 HP/9 def.

- The only DB units at 20/1 that Lyre could beat in a fight are Micaiah and Laura.

She's terrible. She has the same Str transformed as Ranulf has untransformed, and only +1 Def. She has 22 base atk, which is the same as base Mist w/Florete. She can't even double much of anything, which hurts her Strike experience a lot, and has a very hard time gaining experience because of her stupid gauge and crappy durability. Oh, and she tinks Generals.

But we can give her an Energy Drop, right? Now she's a 5HKO on Warriors, 6HKO on Halberdiers, 4HKO on Swordmasters, 3HKO on freakin' Sages, 4-5HKO on Snipers, 8-9HKO on Dragonmasters, and rofl20HKO on 24 Def Generals. Oh, but she doubles Generals, so it's a 10RKO. All this with an Energy Drop. Give her BEXP for some Spd (since 35% Str is going nowhere for now)? Cut those numbers in half and make it R, so she 3RKOs Warriors and Halberdiers, still doesn't double Swordmasters, and 2-3RKOs Snipers.

What an amazing unit. Just kidding, she's worthless on Easy mode.

Also, just because Lethe moved up doesn't suddenly mean she's always in play. She's still Low tier, so the chance that the Bond is actually used is very low.

[grandjackal]

I could have sworn I already said I should give up on Lyre a post ago...

[Florete]

Yeah, but I didn't see that until I had already posted.

[_____]

As for Lyre and Lethe dying easy, they don't. Well, not Lethe anyways ;;>> Lyre's not Fiona easy to kill ya know. Her main problem is just her offense is hot garbage. 10 from the bond and Wrath would help, but...Again, I guess I'm sort of hopeless here.

They don't start transformed in 3-1, which means they're 1 rounded by everything, and if they actually end up transforming, they're still 2-3RKO'd by the reinforcements, and at around 50-60~ displayed hit.

That's not good, at all.

And then, oops, untransformed.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Ninji

[grandjackal]

Hmm...

I'm looking over numbers, and I have come to realize that Mak and Danved...

Basically compared to Lethe, they both need generally the same favoritism (about 8-9 levels to become usable part 4), but Mak on top of that due to low level and speed cap needs a crown AND a bexp level (unless you feel like coughing up CEXP for 4 more levels, Danved would be promoted by then). Danved though is still offensively better due to better strength and weapon level, where Mak only really beats him in 3 defense at equal levels.

2-3, Mak probably has him beat due to move, and neither win n 2-E, because the CRK are too far away from the action to matter. However, at least Danved can double in 2-3 (for the most part), so offensively Danved would be hugely better. Danved's options for ranged weapons also are greatly available, and don't suck. Danved's also got an advantage in supports, in the form of being rescued by Marcia. This helps hyper-speed their support, and both would LOVE more offense sooner, especially for 3-9. Danved's the only CRK with this advantage.

Speaking of 3-9...How does Danved not beat him there? From there on...I think I'd give the win to Danved. Danved just has a significant offense and support advantage, while Mak isn't even pulling off a big enough defensive lead.

Basically I'm saying that perhaps Danved and Mak should switch places? Or at least Danved should go above him in the least?

Also, nice generalization there Ninji. Not everything can ORKO even Lyre (though there are plenty still, but Lethe's nowhere near that bad off). Everyone hates cats with such venom, yet still Ranulf is in upper mid. No one explains why, just that he's great transformed. But he's a cat, he has to blow. Drop him below Taur or Muarim.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Narga_Rocks]

Suggesting that Lethe and Lyre fight in 3-1 is a bit absurd. Even if they do fight, they'll be killed in a very short amount of time.

I'll go into more detail on what Pretty Boi Wolf is saying about their durability.

Boyd has 45 hp and 15 def.

Lyre has 47 hp and 14 def.

Lethe has 51 hp and 18 def.

Oscar has 38 hp and 17 def.

Titania has 36 hp and 20 def.

Ike has 44 hp and 21 def.

Lyre is 3HKOd between 30 mt and 37 mt, Boyd is 3HKOd between 30mt and 36 mt, Oscar is 3HKOd between 30 mt and 35 mt (with the same avo, since Lyre has +1 spd and Oscar has +2 lck)

Lyre is 4HKOd between 26 mt and 29 mt, Boyd is 4HKOd between 27 mt and 29 mt, Oscar is 4HKOd between 27 mt and 29 mt.

Lyre has 8 more res than Boyd, so the thunder mages in 3-1 obviously do better on Boyd.

Lyre also has 3 more luck so Boyd's more likely to get critted.

Lethe is 3HKOd between 35 mt and 43 mt, Titania is 3HKOd between 32 mt and 38 mt, Ike is 3HKOd between 36 mt and 43 mt.

Lethe is 4HKOd between 31 mt and 34 mt, Titania is 4HKOd between 29 mt and 31 mt, Ike is 4HKOd between 32 mt and 35 mt.

Lethe is 5HKOd between 29 mt and 30 mt, Titania is 5HKOd between 27 mt and 28 mt.

Lethe is 8HKOd by 25 mt, Titania is 8HKOd by 25 mt.

Lyre is more durable than Oscar and Boyd for 3HKOd and only slightly worse for 4HKOd.

Lethe is more durable than anyone but Ike and Gatrie, and Ike is only barely more durable. We can go into 5HKOs and Lethe will fall vs. Ike harder, but Lethe also beats Oscar and Boyd by a lot and Titania doesn't even tie until 8 hits at 25 mt, until then Lethe is doing better. At 24 mt in fact they are both 9HKOd, And at 23 mt Titania is 12HKOd while Lethe is 11HKOd, Titania finally wins at 11 hits.

I don't see getting killed as their 3-1 problem.

Their 3-1 problem is not being able to control them and how any exp they are getting is translating directly to bexp, which means we lose a lot of cexp and get minimal bexp back. But since it is boosting their strike level it isn't a big problem. However, since Lyre is irredeemable it means we'd have to have someone pick her up so that only Lethe is attacking. Her 26 mt with no crit and no skills isn't exactly great, but ignoring crit it is tying the offence of a fair number of units, since she doubles and they don't.

Wait, she gains strike level as an NPC!? Bahahahaha! I knew I was on to something! Thanks much Narga for the back-up...er...the main part of the argument ;;>>

...Anywhosle, For some reason this got me thinking of Lyre for some crazy ass reason. She only needs 2 levels to get her speed going, and she levels like she's 20/14, which is like what Oscar and Shinon should be at that point in time if not higher. She can get strike level in that NPC chapter too, the bond support between them offers 10 crit...As for doubling later, all she needs is 1 more level to do that again.

...Basically saying that Elite might help ;;>>

...Don't kill me.

Lyre has other issues that are bigger than that. Support being one of them, as you say in your next post. Not having part 2 to build strike is another.

I'm hopeless with the cats, aren't I? I know Lyre sucks, but...give her a chance! T.T

Well either way, seems I can't really back this up with anything either, not even supports. Her fastest is blehKyza, and Ranulf is an FF 02, which isn't significantly faster than a normal support (I think...), as much as Ranulf would love an avoid and defense boost...

As for Lyre and Lethe dying easy, they don't. Well, not Lethe anyways ;;>> Lyre's not Fiona easy to kill ya know. Her main problem is just her offense is hot garbage. 10 from the bond and Wrath would help, but...Again, I guess I'm sort of hopeless here.

You do like cats, don't you? FF 02 seems the same as 00 02, for some reason. Lyre probably doesn't want Ranulf, though. If she could get anyone she'd like a +mt support. She can't get it, but oh well.

They don't start transformed in 3-1, which means they're 1 rounded by everything, and if they actually end up transforming, they're still 2-3RKO'd by the reinforcements, and at around 50-60~ displayed hit.

That's not good, at all.

And then, oops, untransformed.

Um, pay attention then? Target until they transform, then let them roam a bit on turn 4 to 6, then target them away from action again? They are not killed so easily by the reinforcements, by the way, unless you think the rest of your people are too.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

Also, nice generalization there Ninji. Not everything can ORKO even Lyre (though there are plenty still, but Lethe's nowhere near that bad off). Everyone hates cats with such venom, yet still Ranulf is in upper mid. No one explains why, just that he's great transformed. But he's a cat, he has to blow. Drop him below Taur or Muarim.

If Ranulf had a Hawk or Tiger gauge, he'd be High, probably right under Ulki. Compared to Ulki, he has the same base MT, +4 Def vs. Ulki's 4 HP, and still enough Spd to double most everything in part 3. Ulki would only be better for flight, affinity, avoid, closer to mastery, and more consistent doubling, but Ranulf has an extra chapter to build Strike and support, as well as his Fire weakness being arguably better than Ulki's Crossbow weakness. Ranulf being a Cat has already lowered him.

[grandjackal]

I also don't see anyone else not 2RKOing in the GMs aside from like Titania and Shinon. Offensively, her only real problems are generals and wyvern knights. I've agreed to lower my aims, but she's better in combat to units like perhaps Oscar until he gets to doubling. As you see, she can be quite durable on her own, thank you Narga.

She has the durability, she has the speed to double, strike rank as seen isn't as big a problem as we thought. Basically, she's Ranulf lite with built up strike rank.

Also, because this post was sort of missed.

Hmm...

I'm looking over numbers, and I have come to realize that Mak and Danved...

Basically compared to Lethe, they both need generally the same favoritism (about 8-9 levels to become usable part 4), but Mak on top of that due to low level and speed cap needs a crown AND a bexp level (unless you feel like coughing up CEXP for 4 more levels, Danved would be promoted by then). Danved though is still offensively better due to better strength and weapon level, where Mak only really beats him in 3 defense at equal levels.

2-3, Mak probably has him beat due to move, and neither win n 2-E, because the CRK are too far away from the action to matter. However, at least Danved can double in 2-3 (for the most part), so offensively Danved would be hugely better. Danved's options for ranged weapons also are greatly available, and don't suck. Danved's also got an advantage in supports, in the form of being rescued by Marcia. This helps hyper-speed their support, and both would LOVE more offense sooner, especially for 3-9. Danved's the only CRK with this advantage.

Speaking of 3-9...How does Danved not beat him there? From there on...I think I'd give the win to Danved. Danved just has a significant offense and support advantage, while Mak isn't even pulling off a big enough defensive lead.

Basically I'm saying that perhaps Danved and Mak should switch places? Or at least Danved should go above him in the least?

Edited August 4, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf