OMG it's a tier list

[charmander6000]

What's this talk about Lethe/Lyre getting strike during 3-1? I remember someone training Ena's strike to SS during 4-1 and when endgame came it went back to A. I'm not sure if the same applies to Lethe/Lyre and even if it did it'll only be a few hits since they are hard to control and they also have no olivi grass.

[dondon151]

In 3-1 Lethe and Lyre are partner units whereas Ena is an NPC unit in 4-1.

[Narga_Rocks]

What's this talk about Lethe/Lyre getting strike during 3-1? I remember someone training Ena's strike to SS during 4-1 and when endgame came it went back to A. I'm not sure if the same applies to Lethe/Lyre and even if it did it'll only be a few hits since they are hard to control and they also have no olivi grass.

Well, they are partners not allies in that chapter (like dondon said), so maybe it's different. But it can be easily tested with Lyre. It isn't like it's hard. If I remember and I get to part 3 then I can let Lyre whack something in 3-1 until I see green in her bar and then when I get to 3-4 check if it's still there.

It isn't like Lethe > Kyza is contingent on gaining strike in 3-1. In fact, I'm not sure I'm willing to call it good strategy even. Plus I think Lyre goes before Lethe, though I might be remembering wrong. If so, that's a pain, since you can't even leave a single enemy around and say roam to have Lethe attack it, cause Lyre will first.

I also don't see anyone else not 2RKOing in the GMs aside from like Titania and Shinon. Offensively, her only real problems are generals and wyvern knights. I've agreed to lower my aims, but she's better in combat to units like perhaps Oscar until he gets to doubling.

Well, Titania actually is 2RKOing unless she has the speed wing and pulled 25 speed, and needs to promote by 3-11, though 71.6666% of the map can be doubled with 24 speed, so it isn't too bad, and with a wing and promotion she'll be fine in 3-E. Anyway, there are going to be times where she doesn't ORKO.

However, Ike ORKOs lots, more than Shinon, really, if Ike has a +mt support. crowned Gatrie ORKOs everything. Mia 3HKOs everything but generals, and she'll soon 4HKO them, and she has crit. There are a fair number of units who are much better than Lethe offensively. There are also a bunch that aren't, considering they don't double and she does, especially if you give her a drop and get her to S, because they still won't double so a drop for them won't fix things and she gets +8 damage out of it. Though I'm not exactly willing to give her a drop. Anyway, if she's basically in the middle of the pack offensively once she has S, even a little above, but she has cat gauge on top of that, then I'm not exactly willing to give her too much credit for it. More than Kyza, and maybe more than some others, but there's a reason I kept saying low.

As you see, she can be quite durable on her own, thank you Narga.

You have to keep in mind that's 3-1, where enemies range from 23 to 36, (and 39/40 mt for two sages total, which 3HKOs her anyway and leaves her with 13/11 hp after 2 hits anyway meaning it takes 29mt or 31 mt to finish her) so killing her isn't easy, and is harder than anyone but Ike and Gatrie anyway. (Titania was more durable vs. 23 mt only, which is one guy, and it was the difference between 12HKO and 11HKO, and since he has a killing edge he's looking at only being useful with crits, and it takes 4 to kill either Titania or Lethe anyway).

However, when 3-4 comes around your other units will actually have levels, and Oscar should have B Titania, and Gatrie is crowned and Mia could have B Ike and other units can have other stuff. Now, she was winning, and by a fair amount in 3-1, but concrete wise she might be looking at even by now, or slightly better, than some units, but she's also likely looking at losing avo to some of them too. Still, she's beating Boyd until he hits like level 14 or something, and he'll still be more vulnerable to criticals. She'll likely be beating some others defensively too, so she'll never be a liability defensively while transformed, but she's not great. I might be willing to say quite durable, though. Considering 44 mt is the minimum needed to 2HKO, and nobody in all of part 3 has that. Even the fire sages in 3-11 only have 42 effective might on her, still failing to 2HKO. Then there are lots of enemies in the 31 to 34 bracket, who 4HKO, and anything less starts to get funny. And all those numbers can be bumped up by 1 from 3-4 on thanks to Mordy, and by 2 as of 3-11. Oh, and sages face 20 res rather than 18 so the numbers are boosted by 2 already for mages, and an extra 1 or 2 with supports.

So, aside from only having 26x2+18+15=85 avo from 3-8 on, 81 avo beforehand, she's doing decently. Just means she isn't dodging much.

She has the durability, she has the speed to double, strike rank as seen isn't as big a problem as we thought. Basically, she's Ranulf lite with built up strike rank.

Eeee. She has some durability, she has 32 might after a little bit of time and 27 before. She's pulling 2RKOs on most things, though she'd really like a drop. Thing is, she's still got that gauge, and Ranulf does have significantly more mt, and doubles swordmasters until 3-E anyway, and only a few will reach 27 spd there so he'll still double most. If she wasn't laguz I could see mid, but thanks to that she drops, and thanks to cat gauge she drops further. Hence, low.

Also, because this post was sort of missed.

Hmm...

I'm looking over numbers, and I have come to realize that Mak and Danved...

Basically compared to Lethe, they both need generally the same favoritism (about 8-9 levels to become usable part 4), but Mak on top of that due to low level and speed cap needs a crown AND a bexp level (unless you feel like coughing up CEXP for 4 more levels, Danved would be promoted by then). Danved though is still offensively better due to better strength and weapon level, where Mak only really beats him in 3 defense at equal levels.

2-3, Mak probably has him beat due to move, and neither win n 2-E, because the CRK are too far away from the action to matter. However, at least Danved can double in 2-3 (for the most part), so offensively Danved would be hugely better. Danved's options for ranged weapons also are greatly available, and don't suck. Danved's also got an advantage in supports, in the form of being rescued by Marcia. This helps hyper-speed their support, and both would LOVE more offense sooner, especially for 3-9. Danved's the only CRK with this advantage.

Speaking of 3-9...How does Danved not beat him there? From there on...I think I'd give the win to Danved. Danved just has a significant offense and support advantage, while Mak isn't even pulling off a big enough defensive lead.

Basically I'm saying that perhaps Danved and Mak should switch places? Or at least Danved should go above him in the least?

Well, nobody seems to want to comment on it. I wouldn't have Marcia pick him up, since she'd like to keep her speed in 2-3 for doubling and she needs it to double thunder sages in 2-E. Then in 3-9 she also likely doubling. Plus, she only gets one chapter boost with them anyway, so a support by 3-9 is not easy. Makalov at least only takes 9 adjacents between 2-3 and 2-E, so he's actually got more hope of it, though he still has little hope. Without rescuing Danved needs 12 adjacents, which is almost every turn. Even with rescuing, they are still looking at starting 7 turns with her carrying him, rather restrictive. Oh, we could combine the two, and get maybe 4 holds and 5 adjacents, but that's still as many turns as Mak needs adjacents anyway, and building with Mak doesn't take away their usefulness for 4 turns.

Heck, Calill x Marcia could be a good support, since it's a 01. They only have 2-E, but if Marcia gets the chapter bonuses with the rest of the team that start 2-E, since she is there before the blue words, then she just needs 9 adjacents in 2-E with Calill. It's doable, since you have to spend a set number of turns anyway. If Marcia does get the chapter bonus, then C Marcia x Calill is the easiest to get and provides +1 mt, +3 hit, +3 avo. Then by 3-E they can have +2 mt, +5 hit, +5 avo, and by 4-3/4/5, they could even have A rank, or +3 mt, +8 hit, +8 avo. Since it seems easier to get than Danved, and since Calill > Makalov and Danved, it seems if we are fielding Marcia she'd rather enjoy a Calill support. Plus, Calill has some Magic issues, so she might like it as well.

Oh, and Marcia also might like Makalov more than Danved for the defence anyway.

Anyway, I could still see Danved > Makalov, if only because it takes Makalov so long to catch up from the 3 point speed defecit he starts with. But he starts more durable and his def grows faster than Danved's, so even if his HP grow slower it isn't bad. And Mak has thunder. Mak also has 1 more str, but Danved has fire and lances. Mak has boosted growths with Kieran and Geoffrey, so that makes things easier. Even if the CRK's don't get any chapter bonus for 2-E, they aren't doing much so 9 turns adjacent between the two chapters pulls it. But Geoffrey and Kieran could have each other and are more likely to hang out together in 2-3, and Marcia and Calill could maybe have each other and have more time to hang out in 2-E. They are left with each other and Astrid, so really they are more likely to attempt to support each other. Especially since a strategy to leave more enemies alive in 2-3 involves having Mak and Danved hang out in thickets at the bottom. You lose 2 facings if they stand side by side, but with that and if you can start them adjacent in 2-3 (I think there is a spot with two blue squares side by side) and a few turns adjacent in 2-E and they could pull C for starting 3-9. (I really don't think Mak could survive picking up Danved in 2-3, but he could do it in 2-E since the CRKs that aren't Marcia happen to be at 0 stars, or -2 considering the boss, so they have hit issues and avo issues and Mak and Danved likely gain more benefit from building their support than attempting to fight.)

Anyway, for another thing out of nowhere, I don't see Mak > Ilyana, but whatever.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

I also don't see anyone else not 2RKOing in the GMs aside from like Titania and Shinon. Offensively, her only real problems are generals and wyvern knights. I've agreed to lower my aims, but she's better in combat to units like perhaps Oscar until he gets to doubling.

Well, Titania actually is 2RKOing unless she has the speed wing and pulled 25 speed, and needs to promote by 3-11, though 71.6666% of the map can be doubled with 24 speed, so it isn't too bad, and with a wing and promotion she'll be fine in 3-E. Anyway, there are going to be times where she doesn't ORKO.

However, Ike ORKOs lots, more than Shinon, really, if Ike has a +mt support. crowned Gatrie ORKOs everything. Mia 3HKOs everything but generals, and she'll soon 4HKO them, and she has crit. There are a fair number of units who are much better than Lethe offensively. There are also a bunch that aren't, considering they don't double and she does, especially if you give her a drop and get her to S, because they still won't double so a drop for them won't fix things and she gets +8 damage out of it. Though I'm not exactly willing to give her a drop. Anyway, if she's basically in the middle of the pack offensively once she has S, even a little above, but she has cat gauge on top of that, then I'm not exactly willing to give her too much credit for it. More than Kyza, and maybe more than some others, but there's a reason I kept saying low.

I still say cat gauge is way overblown, as no one seems to use the revert function ever. It would seem though that the only ones she isn't ourperforming offensively are like gods.

As you see, she can be quite durable on her own, thank you Narga.

You have to keep in mind that's 3-1, where enemies range from 23 to 36, (and 39/40 mt for two sages total, which 3HKOs her anyway and leaves her with 13/11 hp after 2 hits anyway meaning it takes 29mt or 31 mt to finish her) so killing her isn't easy, and is harder than anyone but Ike and Gatrie anyway. (Titania was more durable vs. 23 mt only, which is one guy, and it was the difference between 12HKO and 11HKO, and since he has a killing edge he's looking at only being useful with crits, and it takes 4 to kill either Titania or Lethe anyway).

However, when 3-4 comes around your other units will actually have levels, and Oscar should have B Titania, and Gatrie is crowned and Mia could have B Ike and other units can have other stuff. Now, she was winning, and by a fair amount in 3-1, but concrete wise she might be looking at even by now, or slightly better, than some units, but she's also likely looking at losing avo to some of them too. Still, she's beating Boyd until he hits like level 14 or something, and he'll still be more vulnerable to criticals. She'll likely be beating some others defensively too, so she'll never be a liability defensively while transformed, but she's not great. I might be willing to say quite durable, though. Considering 44 mt is the minimum needed to 2HKO, and nobody in all of part 3 has that. Even the fire sages in 3-11 only have 42 effective might on her, still failing to 2HKO. Then there are lots of enemies in the 31 to 34 bracket, who 4HKO, and anything less starts to get funny. And all those numbers can be bumped up by 1 from 3-4 on thanks to Mordy, and by 2 as of 3-11. Oh, and sages face 20 res rather than 18 so the numbers are boosted by 2 already for mages, and an extra 1 or 2 with supports.

So, aside from only having 26x2+18+15=85 avo from 3-8 on, 81 avo beforehand, she's doing decently. Just means she isn't dodging much.

Never said she would be dodging well.

But otherwise, I could agree to this.

Eeee. She has some durability, she has 32 might after a little bit of time and 27 before. She's pulling 2RKOs on most things, though she'd really like a drop. Thing is, she's still got that gauge, and Ranulf does have significantly more mt, and doubles swordmasters until 3-E anyway, and only a few will reach 27 spd there so he'll still double most. If she wasn't laguz I could see mid, but thanks to that she drops, and thanks to cat gauge she drops further. Hence, low.

I feel she would be mid, but only the meter would warrent her lower into lower mid. I mean, Illyana, Makalov...She can't be that significantly worse than these two. Illyana's basically contributing chip damage early part one where she also has the problem of being damn easy to kill. Lethe on the other hand is a perfectly usable unit that has to deal with an unfortunate meter.

Well, nobody seems to want to comment on it. I wouldn't have Marcia pick him up, since she'd like to keep her speed in 2-3 for doubling and she needs it to double thunder sages in 2-E. Then in 3-9 she also likely doubling. Plus, she only gets one chapter boost with them anyway, so a support by 3-9 is not easy. Makalov at least only takes 9 adjacents between 2-3 and 2-E, so he's actually got more hope of it, though he still has little hope. Without rescuing Danved needs 12 adjacents, which is almost every turn. Even with rescuing, they are still looking at starting 7 turns with her carrying him, rather restrictive. Oh, we could combine the two, and get maybe 4 holds and 5 adjacents, but that's still as many turns as Mak needs adjacents anyway, and building with Mak doesn't take away their usefulness for 4 turns.

Heck, Calill x Marcia could be a good support, since it's a 01. They only have 2-E, but if Marcia gets the chapter bonuses with the rest of the team that start 2-E, since she is there before the blue words, then she just needs 9 adjacents in 2-E with Calill. It's doable, since you have to spend a set number of turns anyway. If Marcia does get the chapter bonus, then C Marcia x Calill is the easiest to get and provides +1 mt, +3 hit, +3 avo. Then by 3-E they can have +2 mt, +5 hit, +5 avo, and by 4-3/4/5, they could even have A rank, or +3 mt, +8 hit, +8 avo. Since it seems easier to get than Danved, and since Calill > Makalov and Danved, it seems if we are fielding Marcia she'd rather enjoy a Calill support. Plus, Calill has some Magic issues, so she might like it as well.

Oh, and Marcia also might like Makalov more than Danved for the defence anyway.

Anyway, I could still see Danved > Makalov, if only because it takes Makalov so long to catch up from the 3 point speed defecit he starts with. But he starts more durable and his def grows faster than Danved's, so even if his HP grow slower it isn't bad. And Mak has thunder. Mak also has 1 more str, but Danved has fire and lances. Mak has boosted growths with Kieran and Geoffrey, so that makes things easier. Even if the CRK's don't get any chapter bonus for 2-E, they aren't doing much so 9 turns adjacent between the two chapters pulls it. But Geoffrey and Kieran could have each other and are more likely to hang out together in 2-3, and Marcia and Calill could maybe have each other and have more time to hang out in 2-E. They are left with each other and Astrid, so really they are more likely to attempt to support each other. Especially since a strategy to leave more enemies alive in 2-3 involves having Mak and Danved hang out in thickets at the bottom. You lose 2 facings if they stand side by side, but with that and if you can start them adjacent in 2-3 (I think there is a spot with two blue squares side by side) and a few turns adjacent in 2-E and they could pull C for starting 3-9. (I really don't think Mak could survive picking up Danved in 2-3, but he could do it in 2-E since the CRKs that aren't Marcia happen to be at 0 stars, or -2 considering the boss, so they have hit issues and avo issues and Mak and Danved likely gain more benefit from building their support than attempting to fight.)

I guess I could see the point with Calill. However, least I can say is transporting Danved around 2-3 and 2-E is of not a problem, considering all the mounted units he's surrounded by. Least to say. Mobility should only be considered a problem if you don't have people around to carry your fat ass around. Works for Boris, works for Danved.

Never thought of Danved and Mak supporting. Fire and Thunder would give all around bonuses. Suppose it wouldn't be one to complain about.

Anyway, for another thing out of nowhere, I don't see Mak > Ilyana, but whatever.

I think it's that Mak won't die when sneezed on...

[dondon151]

I still say cat gauge is way overblown, as no one seems to use the revert function ever. It would seem though that the only ones she isn't ourperforming offensively are like gods.

I think most of us are too fixated on hypothetical scenarios like kirsche's where laguz are facing like 3-4 attacks every turn for 10 turns straight. Combat, as we all know, generally occurs in spurts in FE. The real problem with cat gauge is that, under a hypothetical situation where the player faces combat for 2 consecutive turns, Lethe can only take so many attacks before being forced to revert, and unlike other laguz classes, she doesn't have the liberty to forgo grassing and opting for a player phase instead if the player believes that transformation is not necessary on subsequent turns.

Edited August 4, 2009 by dondon151

[Narga_Rocks]

I still say cat gauge is way overblown, as no one seems to use the revert function ever.

Hmm. I've never really analyzed this.

This could be fun. I don't know what will happen with this, but I'm hoping for good stuff.

So, obviously I'll have to make assumptions about what turns on which the downtime is happening, and when she isn't needed so she can revert and stuff.

Turn 1: Olivi grass

Turn 2: Wait.

Turn 3 Player: Shoves something while tranformed. Lethe now has 30 gauge.

Turn 3 Enemy: Attacked twice. Lethe now has 22 Gauge.

Turn 4 Player: 17 gauge. Lethe attacks something. 13 gauge.

Turn 4 Enemy: Not attacked. Lethe still has 13 gauge.

Turn 5 Player: 8 gauge. Revert and grass. 23 gauge.

Turn 5 Enemy: Not attacked.

Turn 6 Player: Transform and attack. 26 gauge.

Turn 6 Enemy: Attacked once. Lethe now has 22 Gauge.

Turn 7 Player: 17 gauge. Attack. 13 gauge.

Turn 7 Enemy: Attacked once. Lethe now has 9 Gauge.

Turn 8 Player: 4 gauge. Grasses. 19 gauge.

Turn 8 Enemy: Attacked twice. Lethe now has 11 Gauge.

Turn 9 Player: 6 gauge. Revert, Grass.

Turn 9 Enemy: not attacked.

Turn 10 Player: Tranform. Attacks. Lethe now has 26 gauge. End of chapter.

In the end, I had her attack 10 times, and use 4 grasses. 10 times is about all we keep giving laguz per chapter anyway when calculating strike rank, whether they are cats or hawks or tigers anyway. It doesn't seem too bad, though she was only able to shove something once for utility.

Let's try again.

Turn 1: laguz stone.

Turn 1 Enemy: get attacked twice, 22 gauge.

Turn 2 Player: 17 gauge, shove something.

Turn 2 Enemy: get attacked once, 13 gauge.

Turn 3 Player: 8 gauge. Revert and grass.

Turn 3 Enemy: not attacked.

Turn 4 Player: Transform and attack. 26 gauge.

Turn 4 Enemy: Get attacked four times, 10 gauge.

Turn 5 Player: 5 gauge. Revert and grass.

Turn 5 Enemy: not attacked.

Turn 6 Player: Transform and attack. 26 gauge.

Turn 6 Enemy: Attacked four times. Lethe now has 10 Gauge.

Turn 7 Player: 5 gauge. Revert and grass.

Turn 7 Enemy: not attacked.

Turn 8 Player: Transform and attack. 26 gauge.

Turn 8 Enemy: Attacked 2 times. Lethe now has 18 Gauge.

Turn 9 Player: 13 gauge. shove something

Turn 9 Enemy: Attacked once. Lethe now has 9 gauge.

Turn 10 Player: 4 gauge. Attack, untransform. End of chapter.

Now, this time I used 1 stone and 3 grasses. She got two shoves in, and 18 attacks in (back to super fast gauge growing).

Really, the revert idea could work, it's just a bit constraining because there are times where a cat needs to revert when a tiger could've attacked. Still, though, at least this way it only uses 4 grasses or a stone and 3 grasses instead of 6 grasses. Even Kyza was using 6 grasses. It should be noted that for a tiger to manage the revert thing it needs to have 7 gauge left instead of 5, so there could be times in which the tiger needs to stay transformed and grass or wait two turns. Either way, it will have less gauge at times as a result. And it is easy to bring the unit back a few steps then revert to avoid it getting attacked. Just means a couple of enemy phases someone else needs to move in. That's fine, though, considering this also makes it easier for Mist to safely heal the unit we were using for tanking while a different one moves in. This could help before physic staves become common.

It would seem though that the only ones she isn't ourperforming offensively are like gods.

You calling Mia a like god? I like it.

Anyway, ignoring top tier and Ranulf, she's looking at:

Oscar, Nephenee, Boyd, Mordecai.

Nephenee doubles and with a forge can have above 30 mt from the get-go. So basically she's easily Lethe's superior offensively, especially with crit thrown in, or Zihark's adept. Defensively it's a no contest, but since Lethe has gauge worries it likely cancels for enemy exposure overall.

(Lethe loses vs. Generals, at least until S, so I'm not going to bother with them)

Oscar needs speed, and for us to determine how soon he hits 24, and when he promotes. As Red Fox pointed out, 24 doubles a fair amount in 3-11, even though chapters like 3-8 have a fair bit more 21 speed enemies. Anyway, Lethe and her 27 mt match Oscar and his 36 mt with a forge against some enemies when he doesn't double. But Oscar does have a crit chance with a killer weapon or bonds, though bonds are sometimes restrictive and the killer weapon means less damage when there isn't a crit. When Oscar does double, it's a smackdown. Even 32 mt with S strike in 3-8 doesn't help, though it does mean she smacks him hard when she doubles and he doesn't. By then, though, he's pulled up his str a bit and maybe has a +mt support, though Titania seems better for him. With energy drops in the comparison Oscar does better but so does Lethe. All in all, without gauge I don't think she wins overall, and doesn't even come close before S strike, really. With gauge, ugh.

Boyd has the disadvantage of never doubling, and only doubling some things if winged. On the other hand, he'll soon have enough strength that even with a killer axe likely does as much damage as Lethe when she doubles, and so against Swordmasters he does more, though against mages he loses without a wing. But, since he's holding that axe he has a very real chance to OHKO that Lethe doesn't have. Really, he wins by a fair margin too, though when she gets S he no longer wins if he holds a killer axe and doesn't crit. Anyway, she loses these comparisons, and at times by a fair amount, though again is helped a bit by S strike.

Mordecai has 38 mt, and with his support he pulls 39 then 40. Lethe doesn't match that against halbs/warriors/snipers even with doubling. Once she has S, though, for a chapter or two she's ahead against those things, then he jumps to 45 mt and does more in one hit than she does in two, though only by like 1 or two against halbs/warriors/snipers. He trumps her durability hard and has a better gauge and resolve makes him a king.

Really, she doesn't do well in comparisons against upper mid at all.

But you were looking at mid, so:

Brom, Soren. (Heather/Mist/Rhys don't really matter offensively or defensively)

Gee, not many to look at.

So, Brom first.

What level is fair for 3-4 anyway? He's clutch in 2-1, 2-2, and a decent wall in 2-E. 3-2 is large and he's slow, but I've been able to make Gatrie useful so the mov shouldn't matter much. I'll say level 9, in part because most of the decimals are like .8 and .1.

So,

42 hp, 22+1 str, 20 skl, 18 spd, 18 lck, 25+1 def, 11+1 res (rounded everything)

So, he's 3HKOd by 40mt to 46 mt (don't exist yet), 4HKOd by 37 to 39 mt, 5HKOd by 35 mt to 36 mt, 6HKOd by 33 mt to 34 mt.

magic wise, he is:

3HKOd by 26 mt to 32 mt, 4HKOd by 23 to 25 mt.

For Lethe, with C Mordy: (51 hp, 18+1 def, 20+1 res)

Lethe is 3HKOd between 36 mt and 44 mt, 4HKOd between 32 mt and 35 mt, 5HKOd between 30 mt and 31 mt, 6HKOd by 28 mt and 29 mt.

For magic:

Lethe is 3HKOd between 38 mt and 46 mt, 4HKOd between 34 mt and 37 mt, 5HKOd between 32 mt and 33 mt, 6HKOd by 30 mt and 31 mt.

So basically, Brom kicks her butt. If enemies from 40 mt to 44 mt existed, it would help Lethe, but they don't. As such, while Lethe is passable, she's not wowing like Brom is. Magicwise, aside from fire mages she pretty much stomps him. Heck, fire mages 3HKO either of them so it doesn't hurt her case anyway.

Thanks to his support, he's pulling 39 mt with a forged steel axe. Of course, by the time he's about to promote that goes up by 4+1, from str and support reaching A.

So 39 mt and never doubling vs. 27 mt and doubling all but swordmasters. Though again, Brom could take resolve and then just cut his HKOd numbers in half and round up for odds. He's basically comparing 3HKO to 4HKO for most values, so Lethe is a bit more durable but Brom is still not going kamikaze, so she'll lose that, too.

39 mt does more against anything with more than 15 def. In other words, all but sages and bishops. So Brom wins offence.

By the time she gets S strike, lets say he's got 3 extra mt from 2 str and an A level support. So he's looking at 42 mt and never doubling and she's looking at 32 mt and doubling all but swordmasters, though she'll have 33 mt by 3-11.

Anyway, for 42 vs 32, he does more against anything with more than 22 def. Which is basically just generals and dragonmasters. Even halbs are mostly 21 or 22. So she is now winning offence overall, though she is losing for 3-4 and 3-7 and possibly some of 3-8.

So ignoring gauge she still loses until 3-8, and then just squeaks out a win offensively but still gets stomped defensively except the rare sages. But then there is gauge to consider to throw her down further.

Soren:

Durability, 3HKOing Soren is mid 20s might, so since that doesn't happen much there's no point looking. Lethe wins durability, but we shouldn't let Soren get attacked anyway. Lethe likely could attack more things, but letting her have too much enemy phase probably hurts efficiency sometimes, depending on what units are where.

Anyway, it's tough to compare units like this, but assuming forged fire he has a 10 mt tome that the DB had to make because we don't get fire for a while in part 3 for forging. Assuming C something and lvl 9 he has 37 mt in 3-4. That was 1 level per chapter, so he might have more. Considering the res/def gap, he basically obliterates except against sages, but thanks to that huge amount of mt he still pulls a 2RKO on sages so he's not too different from Lethe. Of course, once Lethe gets S strike she's one rounding them, but as with the Brom comparison she isn't exactly doing that often given the relative rarity of sages.

Still, it's hard to compare, and comes down to the value of enemy phase action when the unit in question has inferior enemy phase to better options.

Anyway, even without gauge I'm not sure how well she's doing compared to the mid units. Maybe she's only lower mid without gauge, so low with. (and as for letting Mordy or possibly Brom have resolve but not comparing Lethe with an energy drop, well she'd get smoked anyway with them suddenly doubling, but additionally resolve can be traded around and so it seems less costly since it is less permanent.)

It's interesting though that the unit against whom she seems to compare best is Oscar.

Never said she would be dodging well.

But otherwise, I could agree to this.

Well, my point is mainly that while she is passable, Oscar has avo to make up for being 3HKOd at slightly lower mt scores than Lethe would be, and Brom could have a fairly big def margin, Ranulf has 4 HP and 8 def, and so on. She passes, beats some like Boyd and Neph, loses to others. So she's a bit above average durability, probably. So while she is definitely not having durability issues, she's just not making me say wow.

I feel she would be mid, but only the meter would warrent her lower into lower mid. I mean, Illyana, Makalov...She can't be that significantly worse than these two. Illyana's basically contributing chip damage early part one where she also has the problem of being damn easy to kill. Lethe on the other hand is a perfectly usable unit that has to deal with an unfortunate meter.

The trouble with lower mid is that the units there either have chapters where they are forced and have a significant affect on efficiency, or are Volke and Stefan and maybe not that bad compared to the superior options. Or there is Rolf who becomes pretty good in part 4 and even late part 3. Then there's Mak, but I can't really see Mak outperforming her. He's looking at 32 mt with a forged steel, unless he pulled str on levels or a Danved support and we keep Danved. By 3-11, Lethe's pulling 33 mt with A Mordy and S strike, superior durability, better speed, similar res, inferior lck. What the heck is Mak doing so high? What level is he getting for 3-11? Even at level 12 (5 levels how?) he's looking at 40 hp, 34 mt with forged steel, 19 skl, 22 spd, 22.25 lck, 20+1 def, 10.25 +1 res, and that's rounding up a bunch of things that shouldn't be. Lethe has one less mt, 26 spd with bexp in 3-8, 51 hp and 18+2 def, and about 11 more res, so basically more durability by a fair amount and thanks to doubling does way more damage. Then Mak needs to be dragged out of his hole for a few chapters and might start pulling some wins by mid part 4, but part 4 isn't kind on paladins. Then in 4-E he's got a 33 spd cap and no real reason to go through the trouble of raising him, unlike Calill and Marcia. Not to mention not so great mt with a brave weapon compared to the other units that want brave weapons. Is cat gauge really so so bad that Mak can lose in just about everything except having canto and pull out a win by 12 units over Lethe? Especially since Lethe wins part 2 thanks to having stars in 2-E and more use in 2-2 than Mak has in 2-3? Sure, in 3-9 he's forced and Lethe never is in part 3, but still. Definitely I think Mak should be pushed down, not Lethe up, but I wonder what Mak's got that puts him so far ahead of Lethe.

I guess I could see the point with Calill. However, least I can say is transporting Danved around 2-3 and 2-E is of not a problem, considering all the mounted units he's surrounded by. Least to say. Mobility should only be considered a problem if you don't have people around to carry your fat ass around. Works for Boris, works for Danved.

Never thought of Danved and Mak supporting. Fire and Thunder would give all around bonuses. Suppose it wouldn't be one to complain about.

Well, Calill x Marcia is basically contingent on Marcia getting a chapter bonus for 2-E, otherwise it takes 13 turns adjacent in 2-E rather than 9, so I don't know if my suggestion is valid. Still, Danved x Mak is equivalent to Water + Wind, not too bad. They could do worse for a C support (C Danved x Calill or C Danved x Marcia is inferior to C Danved x Makalov, for example).

I think it's that Mak won't die when sneezed on...

Neither will Ilyana. She needs to be sneezed on twice until promotion to tier 3, then three times. Honestly, Soren needs a speedwing and bexp and a crown just to ever double, then paragon in all part 4 chapters to maintain it. Otherwise, he's pulling around a 6 point lead in mt at a time when you have units that come up just short of a kill anyway so the mt difference is less relevant (either can finish), then he'll pull ahead until he caps, then she'll start catching up. Once they promote, he isn't doubling in part 4 anyway and Ilyana is more durable. That 6 point lead is enough to put him above her, and I suppose the remote possibility of doubling, but Ilyana can actually do something enemy phase in part 4 and he can't do as much. Really, she isn't 12 people beneath him. And even if she was, considering her offence will be better at this point than Makalov's and Soren's durability isn't hurting him, and that it's easy to keep her from enemy phase action and we'd rather have a unit other than Mak counter on enemy phase, how does that make Mak > Ilyana?

[grandjackal]

Hmm. I've never really analyzed this.

This could be fun. I don't know what will happen with this, but I'm hoping for good stuff.

So, obviously I'll have to make assumptions about what turns on which the downtime is happening, and when she isn't needed so she can revert and stuff.

Turn 1: Olivi grass

Turn 2: Wait.

Turn 3 Player: Shoves something while tranformed. Lethe now has 30 gauge.

Turn 3 Enemy: Attacked twice. Lethe now has 22 Gauge.

Turn 4 Player: 17 gauge. Lethe attacks something. 13 gauge.

Turn 4 Enemy: Not attacked. Lethe still has 13 gauge.

Turn 5 Player: 8 gauge. Revert and grass. 23 gauge.

Turn 5 Enemy: Not attacked.

Turn 6 Player: Transform and attack. 26 gauge.

Turn 6 Enemy: Attacked once. Lethe now has 22 Gauge.

Turn 7 Player: 17 gauge. Attack. 13 gauge.

Turn 7 Enemy: Attacked once. Lethe now has 9 Gauge.

Turn 8 Player: 4 gauge. Grasses. 19 gauge.

Turn 8 Enemy: Attacked twice. Lethe now has 11 Gauge.

Turn 9 Player: 6 gauge. Revert, Grass.

Turn 9 Enemy: not attacked.

Turn 10 Player: Tranform. Attacks. Lethe now has 26 gauge. End of chapter.

In the end, I had her attack 10 times, and use 4 grasses. 10 times is about all we keep giving laguz per chapter anyway when calculating strike rank, whether they are cats or hawks or tigers anyway. It doesn't seem too bad, though she was only able to shove something once for utility.

Let's try again.

Turn 1: laguz stone.

Turn 1 Enemy: get attacked twice, 22 gauge.

Turn 2 Player: 17 gauge, shove something.

Turn 2 Enemy: get attacked once, 13 gauge.

Turn 3 Player: 8 gauge. Revert and grass.

Turn 3 Enemy: not attacked.

Turn 4 Player: Transform and attack. 26 gauge.

Turn 4 Enemy: Get attacked four times, 10 gauge.

Turn 5 Player: 5 gauge. Revert and grass.

Turn 5 Enemy: not attacked.

Turn 6 Player: Transform and attack. 26 gauge.

Turn 6 Enemy: Attacked four times. Lethe now has 10 Gauge.

Turn 7 Player: 5 gauge. Revert and grass.

Turn 7 Enemy: not attacked.

Turn 8 Player: Transform and attack. 26 gauge.

Turn 8 Enemy: Attacked 2 times. Lethe now has 18 Gauge.

Turn 9 Player: 13 gauge. shove something

Turn 9 Enemy: Attacked once. Lethe now has 9 gauge.

Turn 10 Player: 4 gauge. Attack, untransform. End of chapter.

Now, this time I used 1 stone and 3 grasses. She got two shoves in, and 18 attacks in (back to super fast gauge growing).

Really, the revert idea could work, it's just a bit constraining because there are times where a cat needs to revert when a tiger could've attacked. Still, though, at least this way it only uses 4 grasses or a stone and 3 grasses instead of 6 grasses. Even Kyza was using 6 grasses. It should be noted that for a tiger to manage the revert thing it needs to have 7 gauge left instead of 5, so there could be times in which the tiger needs to stay transformed and grass or wait two turns. Either way, it will have less gauge at times as a result. And it is easy to bring the unit back a few steps then revert to avoid it getting attacked. Just means a couple of enemy phases someone else needs to move in. That's fine, though, considering this also makes it easier for Mist to safely heal the unit we were using for tanking while a different one moves in. This could help before physic staves become common.

And you people thought I was crazy. Not only is that way more cost-efficient, but it's effective. Every map can be friendly or mean to a certain class, and how it measures up with laguz on a map is this. Maps with breaks in the action from group of enemies to another group is laguz friendly. Maps that just don't let up are laguz unfriendly. I may not like this game, but I LOVE what they did with laguz in this game.

However, now that it can be seen that cats don't devour through resources that bad when used right, think Ranulf might shoot up a couple levels?

You calling Mia a like god? I like it.

Anyway, ignoring top tier and Ranulf, she's looking at:

Oscar, Nephenee, Boyd, Mordecai.

Nephenee doubles and with a forge can have above 30 mt from the get-go. So basically she's easily Lethe's superior offensively, especially with crit thrown in, or Zihark's adept. Defensively it's a no contest, but since Lethe has gauge worries it likely cancels for enemy exposure overall.

Care to explain how she got 7 levels in the little time she has prior to part 3? She doesn't start doubling till level 8. I can agree with this statement, just she doesn't start winning till level 8, where Lethe's got a clear offensive win. As for defensive, untransformed Lethe has 51 HP and 9 def. That's 6 less than base Neph, but that's also 19 more HP at base. Untransformed, they're pretty similar and would give the win to Lethe still actually....Well...If Lethe didn't get doubled anyways...

Oscar needs speed, and for us to determine how soon he hits 24, and when he promotes. As Red Fox pointed out, 24 doubles a fair amount in 3-11, even though chapters like 3-8 have a fair bit more 21 speed enemies. Anyway, Lethe and her 27 mt match Oscar and his 36 mt with a forge against some enemies when he doesn't double. But Oscar does have a crit chance with a killer weapon or bonds, though bonds are sometimes restrictive and the killer weapon means less damage when there isn't a crit. When Oscar does double, it's a smackdown. Even 32 mt with S strike in 3-8 doesn't help, though it does mean she smacks him hard when she doubles and he doesn't. By then, though, he's pulled up his str a bit and maybe has a +mt support, though Titania seems better for him. With energy drops in the comparison Oscar does better but so does Lethe. All in all, without gauge I don't think she wins overall, and doesn't even come close before S strike, really. With gauge, ugh.

He needs 5 levels to start doubling. If he wants to keep it up, he better crown (though now I see why Oscar's so damn high up. I feel crazy thinking he sucked). Again though, I don't disagree that some of these people beat her once they start, the problem is they have to start up to get there first. Until then, she's holding her own quite fine.

Boyd has the disadvantage of never doubling, and only doubling some things if winged. On the other hand, he'll soon have enough strength that even with a killer axe likely does as much damage as Lethe when she doubles, and so against Swordmasters he does more, though against mages he loses without a wing. But, since he's holding that axe he has a very real chance to OHKO that Lethe doesn't have. Really, he wins by a fair margin too, though when she gets S he no longer wins if he holds a killer axe and doesn't crit. Anyway, she loses these comparisons, and at times by a fair amount, though again is helped a bit by S strike.

Lethe has a bond support and doubling with Mordy though. Granted it's no killer weapon, but her crit exists. I won't deny that Boyd is strong as balls to equialize doubling, so....

Mordecai has 38 mt, and with his support he pulls 39 then 40. Lethe doesn't match that against halbs/warriors/snipers even with doubling. Once she has S, though, for a chapter or two she's ahead against those things, then he jumps to 45 mt and does more in one hit than she does in two, though only by like 1 or two against halbs/warriors/snipers. He trumps her durability hard and has a better gauge and resolve makes him a king.

Really, she doesn't do well in comparisons against upper mid at all.

No way in hell I'd compare her to Mordecai, at times he's fucking invincible. Besides, I hate comparing people that best support eachother.

But you were looking at mid, so:

Brom, Soren. (Heather/Mist/Rhys don't really matter offensively or defensively)

Gee, not many to look at.

So, Brom first.

What level is fair for 3-4 anyway? He's clutch in 2-1, 2-2, and a decent wall in 2-E. 3-2 is large and he's slow, but I've been able to make Gatrie useful so the mov shouldn't matter much. I'll say level 9, in part because most of the decimals are like .8 and .1.

So,

42 hp, 22+1 str, 20 skl, 18 spd, 18 lck, 25+1 def, 11+1 res (rounded everything)

So, he's 3HKOd by 40mt to 46 mt (don't exist yet), 4HKOd by 37 to 39 mt, 5HKOd by 35 mt to 36 mt, 6HKOd by 33 mt to 34 mt.

magic wise, he is:

3HKOd by 26 mt to 32 mt, 4HKOd by 23 to 25 mt.

For Lethe, with C Mordy: (51 hp, 18+1 def, 20+1 res)

Lethe is 3HKOd between 36 mt and 44 mt, 4HKOd between 32 mt and 35 mt, 5HKOd between 30 mt and 31 mt, 6HKOd by 28 mt and 29 mt.

For magic:

Lethe is 3HKOd between 38 mt and 46 mt, 4HKOd between 34 mt and 37 mt, 5HKOd between 32 mt and 33 mt, 6HKOd by 30 mt and 31 mt.

So basically, Brom kicks her butt. If enemies from 40 mt to 44 mt existed, it would help Lethe, but they don't. As such, while Lethe is passable, she's not wowing like Brom is. Magicwise, aside from fire mages she pretty much stomps him. Heck, fire mages 3HKO either of them so it doesn't hurt her case anyway.

Thanks to his support, he's pulling 39 mt with a forged steel axe. Of course, by the time he's about to promote that goes up by 4+1, from str and support reaching A.

So 39 mt and never doubling vs. 27 mt and doubling all but swordmasters. Though again, Brom could take resolve and then just cut his HKOd numbers in half and round up for odds. He's basically comparing 3HKO to 4HKO for most values, so Lethe is a bit more durable but Brom is still not going kamikaze, so she'll lose that, too.

39 mt does more against anything with more than 15 def. In other words, all but sages and bishops. So Brom wins offence.

By the time she gets S strike, lets say he's got 3 extra mt from 2 str and an A level support. So he's looking at 42 mt and never doubling and she's looking at 32 mt and doubling all but swordmasters, though she'll have 33 mt by 3-11.

Anyway, for 42 vs 32, he does more against anything with more than 22 def. Which is basically just generals and dragonmasters. Even halbs are mostly 21 or 22. So she is now winning offence overall, though she is losing for 3-4 and 3-7 and possibly some of 3-8.

So ignoring gauge she still loses until 3-8, and then just squeaks out a win offensively but still gets stomped defensively except the rare sages. But then there is gauge to consider to throw her down further.

Big problem. He has 16 speed and doesn't get out of it till 4 levels. He's doing well part 2, but only defensively. 2-2 is unpromoted guys, and 2-3 we need to hurry. I could see a level, but not much more.

Why is this a problem? Well the thing about these guys needing 24 AS to be doubled means they have 20 AS, doubling Brom. Not as clear cut as you may think. Against warriors and halbs and swordies, his durability is cut in half. Especially bad against warriors, as with their 34 MT will be cleanly 3HKOing him, a 2RKO with the first round leaving Brom at 1/3 his HP.

Nice catch with the resolve though, it's enough to be doubling. He'd be like Taur in PoR, which indeed would be pretty boss. On the other hand, I could give Lethe similar favoritism for a lesser competed for skill: Wrath. Since she is a laguz, easily able to get to half health then easier maintain it, and the fact she's the only one on the team currently who reliantly doubles outside of Shinon and Mia, she is putting it to the best of use. With Wrath and bond with Mordy, she's looking at 68 crit per shot before luck is involved. Lyre for lulz, boosts it to 78, which is nuts.

Soren:

Durability, 3HKOing Soren is mid 20s might, so since that doesn't happen much there's no point looking. Lethe wins durability, but we shouldn't let Soren get attacked anyway. Lethe likely could attack more things, but letting her have too much enemy phase probably hurts efficiency sometimes, depending on what units are where.

Anyway, it's tough to compare units like this, but assuming forged fire he has a 10 mt tome that the DB had to make because we don't get fire for a while in part 3 for forging. Assuming C something and lvl 9 he has 37 mt in 3-4. That was 1 level per chapter, so he might have more. Considering the res/def gap, he basically obliterates except against sages, but thanks to that huge amount of mt he still pulls a 2RKO on sages so he's not too different from Lethe. Of course, once Lethe gets S strike she's one rounding them, but as with the Brom comparison she isn't exactly doing that often given the relative rarity of sages.

Still, it's hard to compare, and comes down to the value of enemy phase action when the unit in question has inferior enemy phase to better options.

Anyway, even without gauge I'm not sure how well she's doing compared to the mid units. Maybe she's only lower mid without gauge, so low with. (and as for letting Mordy or possibly Brom have resolve but not comparing Lethe with an energy drop, well she'd get smoked anyway with them suddenly doubling, but additionally resolve can be traded around and so it seems less costly since it is less permanent.)

It's interesting though that the unit against whom she seems to compare best is Oscar.

At least she can afford an enemy phase. Some units (like swordmasters) Soren has to be careful around as they'll destroy him. Might not be best with Lethe, but Soren cannot afford it by any means. Then figure that she can put Wrath to great use, which can ORKO plenty, along with helping her offense against generals and dragonmasters. A crit as shown with how often she can 2-3RKO throughout her existence would be an instant death blow on the first strike.

Well, my point is mainly that while she is passable, Oscar has avo to make up for being 3HKOd at slightly lower mt scores than Lethe would be, and Brom could have a fairly big def margin, Ranulf has 4 HP and 8 def, and so on. She passes, beats some like Boyd and Neph, loses to others. So she's a bit above average durability, probably. So while she is definitely not having durability issues, she's just not making me say wow.

Again, Brom's win is not so clear cut, and Oscar/Neph need to be built up first to start winning. Then consider who else could put Wrath to good use and you see the answer is not many.

The trouble with lower mid is that the units there either have chapters where they are forced and have a significant affect on efficiency, or are Volke and Stefan and maybe not that bad compared to the superior options. Or there is Rolf who becomes pretty good in part 4 and even late part 3. Then there's Mak, but I can't really see Mak outperforming her. He's looking at 32 mt with a forged steel, unless he pulled str on levels or a Danved support and we keep Danved. By 3-11, Lethe's pulling 33 mt with A Mordy and S strike, superior durability, better speed, similar res, inferior lck. What the heck is Mak doing so high? What level is he getting for 3-11? Even at level 12 (5 levels how?) he's looking at 40 hp, 34 mt with forged steel, 19 skl, 22 spd, 22.25 lck, 20+1 def, 10.25 +1 res, and that's rounding up a bunch of things that shouldn't be. Lethe has one less mt, 26 spd with bexp in 3-8, 51 hp and 18+2 def, and about 11 more res, so basically more durability by a fair amount and thanks to doubling does way more damage. Then Mak needs to be dragged out of his hole for a few chapters and might start pulling some wins by mid part 4, but part 4 isn't kind on paladins. Then in 4-E he's got a 33 spd cap and no real reason to go through the trouble of raising him, unlike Calill and Marcia. Not to mention not so great mt with a brave weapon compared to the other units that want brave weapons. Is cat gauge really so so bad that Mak can lose in just about everything except having canto and pull out a win by 12 units over Lethe? Especially since Lethe wins part 2 thanks to having stars in 2-E and more use in 2-2 than Mak has in 2-3? Sure, in 3-9 he's forced and Lethe never is in part 3, but still. Definitely I think Mak should be pushed down, not Lethe up, but I wonder what Mak's got that puts him so far ahead of Lethe.

Thing with Low is that most part they're forced too, but afterwards they suck royal balls, or have like slight utility in part 4 endgame, or aren't forced and behave under par. Lethe has been shown that outside her forced chapter she performs ok, not under par. I just don't see how it deserves her to be in Low, when she's performing just fine. Granted she's not god mode, but it's well enough. This is much better than Low could say, and I feel that Lethe just doesn't belong in low for the sole purpose that she has cat gauge when it has been shown that it's easily manageable. I know that Illyana has her great uses in part 1, but she is bleh outside of it. Lethe could go under her in the same tier.

Well, Calill x Marcia is basically contingent on Marcia getting a chapter bonus for 2-E, otherwise it takes 13 turns adjacent in 2-E rather than 9, so I don't know if my suggestion is valid. Still, Danved x Mak is equivalent to Water + Wind, not too bad. They could do worse for a C support (C Danved x Calill or C Danved x Marcia is inferior to C Danved x Makalov, for example).

It seems they would make a nice duo. 1+ ATK and DEF, +3 hit and avoid is a decent all around boost. At A, 2+ ATK and DEF with +9 hit and avoid is pretty nifty.

Neither will Ilyana. She needs to be sneezed on twice until promotion to tier 3, then three times. Honestly, Soren needs a speedwing and bexp and a crown just to ever double, then paragon in all part 4 chapters to maintain it. Otherwise, he's pulling around a 6 point lead in mt at a time when you have units that come up just short of a kill anyway so the mt difference is less relevant (either can finish), then he'll pull ahead until he caps, then she'll start catching up. Once they promote, he isn't doubling in part 4 anyway and Ilyana is more durable. That 6 point lead is enough to put him above her, and I suppose the remote possibility of doubling, but Ilyana can actually do something enemy phase in part 4 and he can't do as much. Really, she isn't 12 people beneath him. And even if she was, considering her offence will be better at this point than Makalov's and Soren's durability isn't hurting him, and that it's easy to keep her from enemy phase action and we'd rather have a unit other than Mak counter on enemy phase, how does that make Mak > Ilyana?

Granted. I agree that Mak's too high and I kept bringing it up, but I have a bad reputation on this list for being a complete lunatic.

[Interceptor]

And you people thought I was crazy. Not only is that way more cost-efficient, but it's effective. Every map can be friendly or mean to a certain class, and how it measures up with laguz on a map is this. Maps with breaks in the action from group of enemies to another group is laguz friendly. Maps that just don't let up are laguz unfriendly. I may not like this game, but I LOVE what they did with laguz in this game.

However, now that it can be seen that cats don't devour through resources that bad when used right, think Ranulf might shoot up a couple levels?

The problem with cats is not that they are eating through resources (you are not going to run out of grass unless you deploy enough laguz to fill a zoo), it's that they are crazily restrictive in terms of how you can actually use them to help you beat the game. You have to do so many backflips and give up so much damage in order to keep Lethe/Ranulf transformed when you need them, that it really dings their ability to help you consistently.

This is nothing on the order of, say, Mia's anemic 1-2 range game, which is something that 1) doesn't hinder you constantly, 2) only applies to a subset of her combat, and 3) has a reasonable counter-measure to mitigate the effect.

I hate what they did with laguz in this game. Per-turn gauge loss should not exist, laguz should only drain for actual combat. In fact, I would be amenable to gauge increasing every turn even when transformed, with a higher combat penalty. Having laguz be at the mercy of a short meter that burns down even when they aren't doing anything, and only allowing a transform at full gauge, is goddamn stupid.

[-Cynthia-]

I personally find non-Formshift laguz (excluding Volug) generally more trouble than they're worth. They can't do anything the first few turns and then they have to not have player phases periodically. Gauge also limits how many enemies they can take on, I usually feel safer throwing Mia at a pack of enemies than Ranulf because Mia will probably survive, Ranulf will probably get untransformed and die despite being more durable, high enemy numbers are a big problem for laguz especially in Part 4. I really preferred it in PoR where they only lost a marginal amount of durability instead of turning into the squishiest things in existence.

[grandjackal]

And you people thought I was crazy. Not only is that way more cost-efficient, but it's effective. Every map can be friendly or mean to a certain class, and how it measures up with laguz on a map is this. Maps with breaks in the action from group of enemies to another group is laguz friendly. Maps that just don't let up are laguz unfriendly. I may not like this game, but I LOVE what they did with laguz in this game.

However, now that it can be seen that cats don't devour through resources that bad when used right, think Ranulf might shoot up a couple levels?

The problem with cats is not that they are eating through resources (you are not going to run out of grass unless you deploy enough laguz to fill a zoo), it's that they are crazily restrictive in terms of how you can actually use them to help you beat the game. You have to do so many backflips and give up so much damage in order to keep Lethe/Ranulf transformed when you need them, that it really dings their ability to help you consistently.

This is nothing on the order of, say, Mia's anemic 1-2 range game, which is something that 1) doesn't hinder you constantly, 2) only applies to a subset of her combat, and 3) has a reasonable counter-measure to mitigate the effect.

I hate what they did with laguz in this game. Per-turn gauge loss should not exist, laguz should only drain for actual combat. In fact, I would be amenable to gauge increasing every turn even when transformed, with a higher combat penalty. Having laguz be at the mercy of a short meter that burns down even when they aren't doing anything, and only allowing a transform at full gauge, is goddamn stupid.

But in exchange, you have an incredibly flexible unit transformed. Cats can put great use to various skills, and are all around decent. I wouldn't mind a couple backflips (a couple, not a circus act's worth). Some units have something good going for them, but others got something bad as well (not durable, get doubled, bad offense, what have you), and the only cat with that problem is Lyre (thus why she's in bottom, we aren't getting the return we want for meter and instead we get a god awful unit even transformed). Mia being the used example, she also has a problem with durability, needing an Earth support to pull something off. Lethe has been shown to be able to take a shot. Lethe's a well-rounded character that doesn't need much maintenence outside of meter.

As for that idea on laguz, that's rediculous as it would break laguz to hell and back. They'd practically be like FE9 paladins, except stastistically redonculous compared to your team.

To Cynthia: If you're throwing Mia into a group so large as to make Ranulf untransform in one turn, then you're clearly doing something wrong...

Side note: Anyone ever realize that there is no reason not to crown Sigrun immediately? Basically you get this on her joining chapter if you do.

38 HP, 21 STR, 17 MAG (great for Imbue), 24 Skill, 26 Speed (enough to double reliably), 28 Luck, 23 Def, 26 Res

76 base ACC, 80 avoid. Bond with Tanith. 4 levels by part 4, she can double reliably there too.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Interceptor]

But in exchange, you have an incredibly flexible unit transformed. Cats can put great use to various skills, and are all around decent. I wouldn't mind a couple backflips (a couple, not a circus act's worth). Some units have something good going for them, but others got something bad as well (not durable, get doubled, bad offense, what have you), and the only cat with that problem is Lyre (thus why she's in bottom, we aren't getting the return we want for meter and instead we get a god awful unit even transformed).

Bull shit they're flexible. Laguz are just walking 1-range stat-bombs, they don't give me "flexibility" unless they are Hawks (which at least have Cantoflying). Beast 2-range is awful. All you bave is Quickclaw, which only works when you get attacked, does crap damage, and doesn't even fire all of the time. As bad as Mia's Wind Edge performance is, she at least does non-zero damage, doubles, and has her innate crit. Comparing the worst beorc 2-range in the game against a laguz's 2-range options is like putting a rocket launcher against a BB gun.

What "flexibility" does a laguz offer you? In reality they are incredibly constraining, you can't do anything with them without doing a cost-beneift analysis on the specific state of the transform gauge and the number of nearby enemies.

Mia being the used example, she also has a problem with durability, needing an Earth support to pull something off. Lethe has been shown to be able to take a shot. Lethe's a well-rounded character that doesn't need much maintenence outside of meter.

Mia's "problems" with durability are only problems for the people who have no fucking clue how to use her at all. Anyone who thinks that Mia's can only become durable with Earth support, or does a run-down of her defensive efficacy without mentioning Vantage ever, is not qualified to speak on the subject at all.

As for that idea on laguz, that's rediculous as it would break laguz to hell and back. They'd practically be like FE9 paladins, except stastistically redonculous compared to your team.

Since I didn't give any specific numbers, it's not possible for you to come to that conclusion. Laguz could, for example, gain back 1 point per turn and drain 10 by fighting, which would make them nigh-useless, not FE9 Paladin broken. The fact of the matter is, Intelligent Systems couldn't balance a Weeble, and my back-of-the-napkin example already provides something that could potentially make non-royals equivalently useful to beorcs in a void, instead of just situationally due to their environment (aka, Volug).

To Cynthia: If you're throwing Mia into a group so large as to make Ranulf untransform in one turn, then you're clearly doing something wrong...

No, what Cynthia is doing is availing herself of more tactical opportunities by having Mia able to bullpen in a corner if needed, where Ranulf has to be babied because of his gauge.

[grandjackal]

I'll get back to Lethe later after gathering some numbers, for now I want to change the subject.

First off, thoughts on either Danved rising above Mak, or Mak dropping under Danved?

Secondly, either Sigrun needs to rise or Tanith needs to plummet.

First off, Sigrun can auto-crown to have the speed she needs to double. Pure advantage, as she doesn't lose a damn thing from it. She has these stats.

38 HP, 21 Str, 17 Mag, 24 Skill, 26 Speed, 28 Luck, 23 Def, 26 Res. Base ACC is 76, avoid is 80.

To compare, Tanith needs to either level till she promotes, or 3 levels and also a crown.

As for part 4, Sigrun needs 4 levels to Tanith's 3, but due to the use of auto-crowning her compared to Tanith needing 3 to match the AS, Tanith in reality needs 6-8 levels in comparison to get said speed. Tanith doesn't even gain 34 AS for auras to make up for it. Then keep in mind with this, Sigrun is capable of doubling for 2 chances of Stun while Tanith still waits.

At equal levels (which they won't be), Tanith only has a 2 HP, 2 skill and 4 STR lead (granted, the STR lead is huge), while Sigrun has a 5 Luck, 1 Res lead and 2 magic lead. Then think, Sigrun has a water affinity. Tanith with her earth needs an avoid giving support to have an avoid lead, as otherwise she loses to her, a C with anyone else is simply a tie. She could support someone who would love offense and defense-Marcia. Sigrun with a support has an easier time closing the strength gap, while Tanith's earth affinity doesn't help her AS problem.

Perhaps that last part was a bit muddled. However, with the insta-promotion benefits, here is the leads Sigrun will have off the bat.

3 HP, 1 Str, 7 mag, 3 skill, 3 Speed, 6 Luck, 4 Def, 6 Res

Quite a deadly lead.

[Interceptor]

Quite a deadly lead.

That's not a lead, that's a crock of shit bullshit sandbag comparison. Crowned Sigrun should be compared with crowned Manith. Since they get identical crown bonuses, Sigrun's lead is:

-1 HP, -2 STR, 3 MAG, 1 SKL, 1 SPD, 6 LCK, 1 DEF, 2 RES

Which is not "deadly", it's "lol". The only figure there that matters is the +1 SPD, and Manith will close that gap very quickly.

[grandjackal]

Quite a deadly lead.

That's not a lead, that's a crock of shit bullshit sandbag comparison. Crowned Sigrun should be compared with crowned Manith. Since they get identical crown bonuses, Sigrun's lead is:

-1 HP, -2 STR, 3 MAG, 1 SKL, 1 SPD, 6 LCK, 1 DEF, 2 RES

Which is not "deadly", it's "lol". The only figure there that matters is the +1 SPD, and Manith will close that gap very quickly.

That 1 speed is not enough to double outside of generals and lolmages. Considering you just cut her leveling speed and that she needs 3 levels to get that sort of speed, you effectively gave Sigrun an offense lead for longer.

[Interceptor]

That 1 speed is not enough to double outside of generals and lolmages. Considering you just cut her leveling speed and that she needs 3 levels to get that sort of speed, you effectively gave Sigrun an offense lead for longer.

Manith's SPD is about as troublesome as a rainy day. SPD is tied for her third-highest growth, meaning that I can BEXP her SPD in tier 2. Even igniring that, once crowned, they are levelling at the same rate. The case where Manith ties Sigrun's SPD after one level-up (Manith procs SPD, Sigrun gets balls) is already something like a 30% probability and it's only going up.

[Narga_Rocks]

That 1 speed is not enough to double outside of generals and lolmages. Considering you just cut her leveling speed and that she needs 3 levels to get that sort of speed, you effectively gave Sigrun an offense lead for longer.

Well, if you are crowning them in 3-11 there's about 60 units there, of which only 17 can't be doubled with 24 speed, so 25 speed also doubles the snipers and 26 speed only brings in the warriors and halbs, still leaving the boss and the swordmasters not doubled. Either one is doing fine in 3-11 crowned speed-wise. In 3-E I don't think the numbers are so nice to Tanith's 25 speed, but by part 4 at least she's got the better growth and is only one behind. Still, I don't feel like looking at numbers for enemy units right now.

[grandjackal]

Manith's SPD is about as troublesome as a rainy day. SPD is tied for her third-highest growth, meaning that I can BEXP her SPD in tier 2. Even igniring that, once crowned, they are levelling at the same rate. The case where Manith ties Sigrun's SPD after one level-up (Manith procs SPD, Sigrun gets balls) is already something like a 30% probability and it's only going up.

...Clever bastard with the BEXP....

But with the speed argument, outside of bexp, part 4 it's good to have 27 AS generally. Where Tanith would need 5 levels, Sigrun would need 4.

However, my argument is kinda ground to dust with the BEXP argument...

Would you at least agree the gap shouldn't be that large, especially considering since neither are getting 34 AS anytime soon have no business going to endgame?

[Interceptor]

Would you at least agree the gap shouldn't be that large, especially considering since neither are getting 34 AS anytime soon have no business going to endgame?

Two tiers is a big gap, which might be inappropriate, but Manith is not without distinct advantages over Sigrun. SPD is one (even if you don't hit 34, Manith still grows faster and doubles more generics eventually), freedom to go to which army she wants in Part 4 is another, plus the STR lead (a pretty massive lead). It's possible that Manith is too high, but it's unlikely that Sigrun is too low, imo.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Interceptor

[-Cynthia-]

Tanith will be faster though, she eventually does reach 34 Spd, albeit at very late levels near max. However, if we consider Speedwing usage, a 20/14 Tanith can double auras, not even 20/20 Sigrun can.

[Narga_Rocks]

And you people thought I was crazy.

Am I crazy because I thought it would be fun? I was mostly doing that for "science", not to try to prove things one way or the other.

Not only is that way more cost-efficient, but it's effective. Every map can be friendly or mean to a certain class, and how it measures up with laguz on a map is this. Maps with breaks in the action from group of enemies to another group is laguz friendly. Maps that just don't let up are laguz unfriendly. I may not like this game, but I LOVE what they did with laguz in this game.

It isn't like some of the other characters, but considering people on this site have some strange idea about forcing some proper number of kills to each unit rather than letting better units waltz in and clean up sometimes, it doesn't seem so bad if she can pull tricks every other turn. Really though, cat gauge doesn't work with my style of play (Mia, Ike, Gatrie vanguard, followed by clean up crew, big exp for Mia, Gatrie isn't allowed to kill things, that kind of stuff), but I don't know if it is like 10 times worse than tiger gauge or anything.

However, now that it can be seen that cats don't devour through resources that bad when used right, think Ranulf might shoot up a couple levels?

Ranulf blows. I want him going down. Well, I'm probably exaggerating with the blowing thing, but really to get to high you should be a little more flexible, and I guess he's destructive and durable at levels that should probably grant him upper mid.

Care to explain how she got 7 levels in the little time she has prior to part 3? She doesn't start doubling till level 8. I can agree with this statement, just she doesn't start winning till level 8, where Lethe's got a clear offensive win. As for defensive, untransformed Lethe has 51 HP and 9 def. That's 6 less than base Neph, but that's also 19 more HP at base. Untransformed, they're pretty similar and would give the win to Lethe still actually....Well...If Lethe didn't get doubled anyways...

She doesn't need 7 levels for 3-2. There's like, 2 halbs in 3-2, one of which only has 19 speed. The rest of the enemies have 18 speed. She needs 22 for reliable doubling in 3-2, which is about 3 levels on average. Besides, she makes pretty good use of the 2-3 bonus experience in 2-E, because otherwise it's sitting around for a while. She gets a level or 2 out of that, sacrifices a bit of other points to get doubling earlier, but not enough to hurt in the long run.

Anyway, she just needs the 24 for all the halbs in 3-3, and that's basically level 7, since 23.9 might as well be 24 considering a level or two of bexp in 2-E basically forces speed. She might even pull 24 speed by level 6, but even level 7 means 6 levels in 4 chapters: 2-1, 2-2, 2-E, 3-2, and with the bexp thrown in she's good.

Then 3-4 she only needs 24 anyway, so even if she missed in 3-3 she should be fine when Lethe makes her appearance.

As for defence, Neph's passable, and Lethe can't exactly face unlimited action.

He needs 5 levels to start doubling. If he wants to keep it up, he better crown (though now I see why Oscar's so damn high up. I feel crazy thinking he sucked). Again though, I don't disagree that some of these people beat her once they start, the problem is they have to start up to get there first. Until then, she's holding her own quite fine.

Like I said, the question is how many levels does he get before 3-4? I can see not having 24 speed in 3-4 for him, what with his starting level and the chapter layouts he's seen thus far, but he can't see many enemies in 3-4 or 3-7 anyway so one could argue she wins those. Then in 3-8 she's doing better for doubling more, since only a crown would fix his spd cap and I'd rather give those to Gatrie and Haar. But in 3-11 he's doubling a large number of enemies, and there are more crowns available anyway. Really, without gauge I could see the win for Lethe in 3-4 and 3-7 and 3-8 and 3-10. The trouble is that gauge of hers. It is rather limiting, and means she has to alternate between attacking and not attacking. I think it's more an opportunity cost of tactics lost and times available to attack. Really though, I think Oscar is inflated on this list, so beating him in a few chapters isn't massive.

Lethe has a bond support and doubling with Mordy though. Granted it's no killer weapon, but her crit exists. I won't deny that Boyd is strong as balls to equialize doubling, so....

Yeah, but even Boyd with a forge and no bonds will beat Lethe's bond with Mordy. Lyre isn't happening, so she's looking at 18 crit with Mordy. Boyd has 25 with a crit and not using his Oscar bond. And while I like Oscar x Titania for equal move and move penalties and Titania wanting enhanced durability anyway, Oscar doesn't really get much out of the deal aside from an equal move partner, so a Boyd support could be something he'd like more for the +mt. If they are within 3 spaces anyway, it increases the likelihood of getting them adjacent.

Anyway, pulling 4% crit and doubling will not be more than 11% crit in one hit. And at this point Boyd is carrying around a 16 mt axe with boosted hit if we are nice enough to him, or even +4 mt, +15 hit, +12 crit and we'll save a bit for making other epic forges. Anyway, he'll assault her pre-S strike offence pretty hard, and he does catch up to her durability by the time she hits S.

No way in hell I'd compare her to Mordecai, at times he's fucking invincible. Besides, I hate comparing people that best support eachother.

Yes, well, I just wanted to cover everyone relevant in upper mid anyway. I suppose Mordy vs. Lethe is kind of a foregone conclusion, though.

Big problem. He has 16 speed and doesn't get out of it till 4 levels. He's doing well part 2, but only defensively. 2-2 is unpromoted guys, and 2-3 we need to hurry. I could see a level, but not much more.

2-1, 2-2, and 2-E. Plus 3-2 and 3-3 before Lethe appears.

Ah, but he's getting doubled at base level in 3-2 by 4 guys. A boss, two swordmasters who should both be killed on turn 1 player phase for the sake of safety, and one halb. Nothing else does. In 3-3, there are now a bunch of halbs and a boss that ORKOs the level 9 Brom I introduced. Say ouch? Well, I say the boss doesn't have much places to actually attack so Brom doesn't care. It's all about the halbs, but with their 29 atk on average and Brom's water affinity and a chance to have 17 speed by now and basically being 4RKOd if he's level 5 and 5RKOd if he's level 7 even if he never pulls speed (double the numbers if he got speed) I think he's winning rather easily. Then in 3-4 he should easily have those 4 levels and be level 6 or more for when Lethe appears. With 5 chapters before she appears I figured 7 levels was reasonable, but maybe I gave him too much? I don't know. I try, but I'm not perfect at level estimates.

Why is this a problem? Well the thing about these guys needing 24 AS to be doubled means they have 20 AS, doubling Brom. Not as clear cut as you may think. Against warriors and halbs and swordies, his durability is cut in half. Especially bad against warriors, as with their 34 MT will be cleanly 3HKOing him, a 2RKO with the first round leaving Brom at 1/3 his HP.

Ah, but there are a lack of warriors in 3-2 and 3-3, and by 3-4 he shouldn't be doubled anyway. Well, there's two 21 speed warriors in 3-4 and 1 21 speed halb in 3-3, but I think it's fine.

The real questions are: what level he is in 3-5? And since we are comparing him to Lethe does it matter since she isn't there? He isn't getting doubled in 3-7, but then only Haar can carry him anyway anyway. On the bright side, him move over river is almost the same as ground units.

Anyway, for 3-5, if it matters, he needs level 7 to have some chance of 18 spd, level 8 for a better chance, and level 9 for a rather good shot at it. Plus the level 9 average is 18.1.

So he'd need 6 levels in 6 chapters for the 17.8, and I think we usually assume it at that point since it's over 50% (58% for 18 speed or more), or we could just go with 7 levels in 6 chapters (67% of 18 or more).

Nice catch with the resolve though, it's enough to be doubling. He'd be like Taur in PoR, which indeed would be pretty boss. On the other hand, I could give Lethe similar favoritism for a lesser competed for skill: Wrath. Since she is a laguz, easily able to get to half health then easier maintain it, and the fact she's the only one on the team currently who reliantly doubles outside of Shinon and Mia, she is putting it to the best of use. With Wrath and bond with Mordy, she's looking at 68 crit per shot before luck is involved. Lyre for lulz, boosts it to 78, which is nuts.

I'm not convinced about wrath on Lethe. She's looking at 15 hp and 18+1 def until 3-11 where she'll have 15 hp and 18 +2 def. Anyway, she's basically 2HKOd by 27 mt to 33 mt, OHKOd for 34 mt and above, and I don't think there is very much at 26 mt or below, but she's looking at not so great durability. Basically, she's stuck attacking things with 33 mt or less (35 mt or less if magic but not fire, elfire mages OHKO her, which basically results in the rest not OHKOing her much but thunder mages do mostly have 26 mag and 19 crit so she's facing a 1% chance of death, which is not fun.) and so she's stuck to player phase bombing. Now, she's doubling, so she's got a good chance at hitting it, but basically she'll never have an enemy phase and if she does get hit base level Mist heals for 24 hp, so Lethe is out of wrath range. As such, Lethe needs to waste a turn with a herb if she gets hit, and the enemy needed to cause at least 10 damage if we got her to precisely 15 hp. If she was lower hp, she'd not be permitted to attack 33 mt enemies anymore, etc.

At least she can afford an enemy phase. Some units (like swordmasters) Soren has to be careful around as they'll destroy him. Might not be best with Lethe, but Soren cannot afford it by any means. Then figure that she can put Wrath to great use, which can ORKO plenty, along with helping her offense against generals and dragonmasters. A crit as shown with how often she can 2-3RKO throughout her existence would be an instant death blow on the first strike.

Again, I'm not convinced that wrath is so great for her given she can only face one attack per turn and needs to herb if hit and hope it won't put her back over 15 hp. Then there is gauge on top of that so she'll have issues doing both herbing and grassing.

Anyway, this is the problem:

Might not be best with Lethe

What this means is: Soren is less flexible, since we can afford to leave Lethe somewhere and if we can arrange it to not lose efficiency she can be active on enemy phase and he can't. However, all it really means is that we have to find ways for Soren to attack without getting attacked. So it's the cost of having to arrange him vs. the cost of her being the one to attack something on enemy phase and not Ike/Mia/Gatrie. That's a little hard to compare.

Again, Brom's win is not so clear cut, and Oscar/Neph need to be built up first to start winning. Then consider who else could put Wrath to good use and you see the answer is not many.

I don't know if anyone can use wrath all that well in this game but Ulki and Micaiah. Neph is going to have 24 speed by 3-4, there's just no way around that one. Well, if used. Brom's win is still a win even doubled except vs. warriors, but he should have 17 spd by 3-4 anyway. And 18 by 3-8.

Thing with Low is that most part they're forced too, but afterwards they suck royal balls, or have like slight utility in part 4 endgame, or aren't forced and behave under par. Lethe has been shown that outside her forced chapter she performs ok, not under par. I just don't see how it deserves her to be in Low, when she's performing just fine. Granted she's not god mode, but it's well enough. This is much better than Low could say, and I feel that Lethe just doesn't belong in low for the sole purpose that she has cat gauge when it has been shown that it's easily manageable. I know that Illyana has her great uses in part 1, but she is bleh outside of it. Lethe could go under her in the same tier.

I don't know. Since I can't see Mak > Lethe by 12 units, I'd really like him to go down, not Lethe up. I'm not convinced Lethe has a place in lower mid, simply because she is at best neutral for a lot of part 3. She gets a little better offence by S strike, but unfortunately units are nearing promotion by then. And she's always got that gauge.

It seems they would make a nice duo. 1+ ATK and DEF, +3 hit and avoid is a decent all around boost. At A, 2+ ATK and DEF with +9 hit and avoid is pretty nifty.

Yeah, I think Danved x Mak is a good combo for 3-9. Oh, if they reach A it wouldn't be until 4-3/4/5, and it would be +8 hit / avoid, but I guess that correction is rather minor. Well, I still don't know if allies get points with themselves. I'll be testing Jill/Z/T in 1-5/1-6 with each other soon, to see if the allied units get chapter bonuses with each other. I doubt it, but if they do then it would assist the CRK's bring up their support levels a chapter earlier.

Granted. I agree that Mak's too high and I kept bringing it up, but I have a bad reputation on this list for being a complete lunatic.

I really want Mak to go down, but oh well. Still, I don't think you are a complete lunatic. :P

edit:

Going back to the wrath thing. Laguz have 35 capacity, and beasts only take up 5.

He has 30 available.

Anyone ever consider Mordecai at 17 hp and his 32 + 1 def with resolve and wrath? Ulki can't do it without giving up Tear, tier 3 beorc marksman and reavers (the only ones with 30 capacity left) can't do it safely. Eddie will die if we try, Tauroneo means no resolve for a long time in chapters we could've had it.

Basically, in part 3 he's the only one that can do it safely, and in part 4 only "royals" can. By putting it in quotes I'm including anyone with the extra 30 capacity. Oh, and Ena, though I'm not sure if at 30% hp she'd have the durability.

It isn't like Nephenee puts it to fantastic use anyway. Generally just on enemy phase when the last enemy hits her, because any more and she could die. Or player phase attacking a sniper or something. Micaiah could still have Eddie's.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

Would you at least agree the gap shouldn't be that large, especially considering since neither are getting 34 AS anytime soon have no business going to endgame?

Two tiers is a big gap, which might be inappropriate, but Manith is not without distinct advantages over Sigrun. SPD is one (even if you don't hit 34, Manith still grows faster and doubles more generics eventually), freedom to go to which army she wants in Part 4 is another, plus the STR lead (a pretty massive lead). It's possible that Manith is too high, but it's unlikely that Sigrun is too low, imo.

Problem with her speed is that it only really plays out part 4, a relatively short time pre-endgame. Tanith does beat her part 4 due to strength lead, but part 3 is sort of in Sigrun's hands due to an important speed lead. Tanith could be high in lower mid or lower in mid, and Sigrun can be perhaps bottom of lower mid?

Also, could have sworn that both were forced Michaiah's route...

Tanith will be faster though, she eventually does reach 34 Spd, albeit at very late levels near max. However, if we consider Speedwing usage, a 20/14 Tanith can double auras, not even 20/20 Sigrun can.

No she won't. It takes her 3 levels in some shape or form to reach Sigrun's base. Then consider that 20/14 is pretty rediculous still. Tanith will never end up significantly faster than Sigrun without a speedwing or favoritism.

[Progenitus]

lol

Edited August 6, 2009 by smash fanatic

[-Cynthia-]

Problem with her speed is that it only really plays out part 4, a relatively short time pre-endgame. Tanith does beat her part 4 due to strength lead, but part 3 is sort of in Sigrun's hands due to an important speed lead. Tanith could be high in lower mid or lower in mid, and Sigrun can be perhaps bottom of lower mid?

Sigrun has 1 Spd lead, Tanith leads almost everywhere else, not seeing how Sigrun is much better,

No she won't. It takes her 3 levels in some shape or form to reach Sigrun's base. Then consider that 20/14 is pretty rediculous still. Tanith will never end up significantly faster than Sigrun without a speedwing or favoritism.

She's beating Sigrun by 2 Spd when both are 20/8, for example. It's absolutely stupid to say that Sigrun's 1 Spd lead at base is important, but Tanith's 2+ Spd lead isn't. You're also underestimating the amount of EXP available in part 4, Tanith will be gettign a lot, especially since she's underleveled. Plus, we can alway swap Paragon around as well.

[grandjackal]

So Pretty Boi Wolf, what arguments have been going on in this topic recently?

You say it as if you were accusing me...

To sum it up, I started with trying to argue Lethe up due to relevent strike build-up time, enough speed to get by and statistically being well rounded, while having the advantage of being Mordy's fastest support. In the argument, it was shown that cat gauge is not as hard to manage as one would think (still sucks, don't get me wrong), and that her performance is rather carbon part 3. Basically trying to argue her to lower mid (current target: Above Mak), but the cat gauge is a pain in the ass (as much as I dont think it should be entirely what warrents her to be in low). So far, got her above...Oliver...Baby steps I guess. Me and Narga (sorta, even though he's provided the bulk of the argument) against the world.

Then there's Danved and Mak, where Danved has quite noticeable stat leads, showing that no way in hell does a horse outbeat how bad Danved's beating him. I suggested Danved and Mak switch places, but it seems that Mak might just drop instead.

Finally, we got Tanith and Sigrun comparison, where it is shown that Tanith needs 3 levels to tie her in speed, a point of speed relevent to doubling after a crowning as 25 AS doesn't quite get the job done, whereas Sigrun's 26 AS (after crowning) does. Then to get to 27 AS, Tanith needs 5 levels where Sigrun would need for, this to carry over into part 4. While Tanith then would win regardless due to quite teh strength lead, showing that Sigrun can function just as well with less EXP (though Tanith can take a BEXP level and tell Sigrun to shove it), that while Sigrun might not beat Tanith, the fact is that the gap between them needs to close. I suggest both in lower mid, but again it would seem Tanith will just drop instead.

[Florete]

I brought up raising Sigrun before, and I could see her moving to Lower Mid, since she at least has utility over some of the others. However, I've always seen Tanith as a Mid tier character, so I don't think she'll drop.

As for Danved and Mak, they are like the only two characters in this entire game I've never used, so if it's agreed Mak should move down, so be it.

and that her performance is rather carbon part 3.

I don't know what "carbon" is supposed to mean but I've shown multiple times that Lethe's part 3 is not good in any way. At best you can say it's "below average," and that's when she's transformed.