OMG it's a tier list

[-Cynthia-]

I could see Sigrun in Lower Mid, but I'm not sure about Sigrun>Vika. Vika is above average for 3 chapters, Sigrun is kind of average, probably a little below for 4 chapters, then they both have horrible Endgames.

I guess I could see Tanith move down, but probably not below Calill, since Tanith is going to show up more ready (a 6 level lead or so) for 3-11 than Calill is and they have similar potential. The people in between them are difficult comparisons, mostly characters she loses to for a few chapters but has availability leads over.

I still think the BK should move up. Being quite possibly the best unit(or second best) for 3 chapters> being a good unit in 4-E. He's probably better than Muarim too, he beats him directly in 1-E(no gauge, 1-2 range, better durability), and the BK's 1-9 and 3-6 are probably better than Muarim's 1-7 and 1-8, and Muarim's 4-4 and 4-E isn't going to count for much of a +.

[Interceptor]

So Pretty Boi Wolf, what arguments have been going on in this topic recently?

You say it as if you were accusing me...

Perhaps you're one of the few tier-thread participants that smash doesn't have on "ignore".

[Progenitus]

You say it as if you were accusing me...

No, I'm not accusing you, I just wanted to ask you.

To sum it up, I started with trying to argue Lethe up due to relevent strike build-up time, enough speed to get by and statistically being well rounded, while having the advantage of being Mordy's fastest support. In the argument, it was shown that cat gauge is not as hard to manage as one would think (still sucks, don't get me wrong), and that her performance is rather carbon part 3. Basically trying to argue her to lower mid (current target: Above Mak), but the cat gauge is a pain in the ass (as much as I dont think it should be entirely what warrents her to be in low). So far, got her above...Oliver...Baby steps I guess. Me and Narga (sorta, even though he's provided the bulk of the argument) against the world.

I dunno, Lethe is pretty bad. Her bases are only slightly better than Lyre's of all people, and she's got generally inferior growths...!

Versus Mak, I'd say Mak is still better. Lethe has better stats than Mak when he joins in 3-11, but since she's pretty sucky from 3-4 to 3-10 she's got more suck built up, so it's not really clear-cut, and then Mak catches up pretty quickly because he's going to level like a 20/12 unit or something while Lethe is leveling like a tier 3 beorc.

20/20/1 Mak

48.15 HP, 25.5 str, lolmag, 24.2 skl, 27 spd, 25.85 lck, 25.5 def, 16.25 res

26 Lethe

55.25 HP, 21.5 str, lolmag, 29 skl, 29 spd, 20.25 lck, 21.5 def, 22 res

Lethe can double a bit more enemies, but Mak has a lot more att (4 str, plus silver blades have 3 more mt than S-strike cat claw, plus he can also switch to better weapons too), and he's winning defense too. And he also has canto + no transformation issues.

And then Mak is getting like 16 more exp a kill, so he improves a lot faster than Lethe.

If level 26 for Lethe sounds too low for her in this comparison, consider that her 21 base level means she's leveling like a 20/20/2 beorc, which is higher than Titania, who was getting very meager exp gains as well. Like, 10 a kill or something that low. She might be like level 23 by the time Mak rejoins, who is going to be like 20/11 or so (use paragon in 3-9), which means 10 levels for Mak and 3 levels for Lethe. As a comparison for exp gains, a level 15 enemy in 3-11 would give 20/11 Mak 26.5 exp for a kill and 23 Lethe 4 exp for the same kill. Even factoring in BEXP, where Lethe levels like a 20/15 beorc or so with it, that sounds reasonable to me.

I suppose the argument would hinge on how much suck Lethe is building up from 3-4 to 3-10. I consider her being one of the worst GMs (like, better than Ilyana/Lyre. Kyza/Rolf are probably debatable, and loses to everyone else), so I find it to be a lot of suck.

Then there's Danved and Mak, where Danved has quite noticeable stat leads, showing that no way in hell does a horse outbeat how bad Danved's beating him. I suggested Danved and Mak switch places, but it seems that Mak might just drop instead.

The only noticeable lead Danved has on Mak is some spd, but then Mak has a much higher spd growth (75 to 45). In fact, 20/17 Mak has the same spd as 20/18 Danved, and Danved only pulls slightly ahead because mak has spd capped, and then in 3rd tier their spd is basically the same (Danved wins by ~1 point, then Mak ties, then Mak wins by ~1 point, then caps spd, then Danved caps spd too).

And then Mak has more def (17 base to 15, and wins growth) and slightly more str (18 base to 17, same growth). Danved wins the more pointless stats like skl and res.

I suppose it could be argued that Danved's more useful in CRK chapters (since we already have Kieran/Geoffrey on mounts, while Danved can do things like jump up the ledges in 3-9), but that's very short. Admittedly I haven't looked at Danved vs Mak thoroughly, but I think Mak is better.

Finally, we got Tanith and Sigrun comparison, where it is shown that Tanith needs 3 levels to tie her in speed, a point of speed relevent to doubling after a crowning as 25 AS doesn't quite get the job done, whereas Sigrun's 26 AS (after crowning) does. Then to get to 27 AS, Tanith needs 5 levels where Sigrun would need for, this to carry over into part 4. While Tanith then would win regardless due to quite teh strength lead, showing that Sigrun can function just as well with less EXP (though Tanith can take a BEXP level and tell Sigrun to shove it), that while Sigrun might not beat Tanith, the fact is that the gap between them needs to close. I suggest both in lower mid, but again it would seem Tanith will just drop instead.

Yes, Tanith (and Marcia for that matter) seriously need to drop. I mean, mid tier? Lower mid is much more appropriate.

Sigrun should stay put (I actually see her being lower, but w/e). She literally has the worst growth spread in the game, and a crown doesn't solve her issues because it could just be given to someone else. Anyway, if I wanted Sigrun to be promoted by 3-11, I'd just throw 2 BEXP levels on her.

[Narga_Rocks]

Perhaps you're one of the few tier-thread participants that smash doesn't have on "ignore".

I wonder if I'm on ignore.

[Florete]

I agree with Cynthia, Black Knight should move up. After all, his current position was just a "I need to put him on the list" thing, so it makes sense that his position isn't perfect yet.

[Mekkah]

One more thing that I don't believe has been noted for the cats is that they seem to have no time in their schemes for using vulneraries, so they'll prolly need Mist's attention or something more often than other units.

[Narga_Rocks]

One more thing that I don't believe has been noted for the cats is that they seem to have no time in their schemes for using vulneraries, so they'll prolly need Mist's attention or something more often than other units.

I did calculate two shoves for one option. The shoves could be replaced by a vulnerary. Besides, when they revert and grass and run back it is also rather easy and safe for them to get healed. Everyone needs healing from time to time and with 81 avo and being 4HKOd by a fair number of enemies, 5 in fact by some, and she's not always getting hit all the time either (thanks to the 81 avo), so doesn't necessarily need healing more often than Mist and Rhys can heal her. You have two healers, and Rhys doesn't care about his lack of durability when healing an untransformed Lethe that isn't near the front lines anyway. It is certainly more limiting than someone who doesn't care about tranform stuff, but it isn't so bad.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Interceptor]

I think that the point was more that Mist/Rhys have to personally heal the laguz, rather than the laguz needing healing in the first place. You don't have as much flexibility with your healers when cats are in the mix, because your staff-healers can only do so much, and you may be forcing beorcs to self-heal at inopportune moments in order to pick up the slack.

[Narga_Rocks]

I think that the point was more that Mist/Rhys have to personally heal the laguz, rather than the laguz needing healing in the first place. You don't have as much flexibility with your healers when cats are in the mix, because your staff-healers can only do so much, and you may be forcing beorcs to self-heal at inopportune moments in order to pick up the slack.

Oh, I agree it's less flexible. That's why I don't even like Ranulf. It just takes more planning and sometimes it won't work. I'm just saying that it won't be something that's an issue too frequently. Of course, I tend not to use non-royal laguz not named Volug much. I use the others only when needed, though of course Mordy is used in 2-E rather extensively. But I've never needed units to self heal all that frequently, so the fact that cats can't do it as much I don't see as a major problem. Besides, my point about Lethe's durability was that based on how often her gauge lets her be attacked, she might be at 28 hp at some point and not immediately need healing, but since Mist and Rhys are frequently not doing anything for me sometimes they can heal Lethe then, rather than waiting until she drops to 11 and I'd like to use a concoction because Mist and Rhys are healing someone else and I can't use that concoction because of needing to grass. Plus, there are times cats can in fact use that vulnerary and still stay okay, so the probability of this bad situation coming up is reduced further.

I know it's not as good, I already said it's more limiting, but I don't think it's going to come up all that often. It is something that never comes up with beorc, obviously, but I don't think it'll even come up every chapter with laguz. Maybe cats, and that's a knock on cat gauge, but if it happens once a chapter to cats and once every other chapter to the other laguz, it still isn't so bad.

[grandjackal]

I don't know what "carbon" is supposed to mean but I've shown multiple times that Lethe's part 3 is not good in any way. At best you can say it's "below average," and that's when she's transformed.

You did no such thing, you ust said she sucked. Narga and I gave numbers, and I can prove those numbers if you want.

I dunno, Lethe is pretty bad. Her bases are only slightly better than Lyre's of all people, and she's got generally inferior growths...!

Mordy's growths suck too, let's throw him in the trash. As for slightly better than Lyre, how so? Lethe's got enough speed to double, has enough strength to pull offense some of your guys are doing anyways, and has strike level built up from part 2 and that chapter where she's an ally. On top of being basically almost as durable as Titania, I fail to see the problem outside of meter. I learned arguing her into like upper mid is a bit of a nutcase move, but bottom of lower mid really too much?

Versus Mak, I'd say Mak is still better. Lethe has better stats than Mak when he joins in 3-11, but since she's pretty sucky from 3-4 to 3-10 she's got more suck built up, so it's not really clear-cut, and then Mak catches up pretty quickly because he's going to level like a 20/12 unit or something while Lethe is leveling like a tier 3 beorc.

20/20/1 Mak

48.15 HP, 25.5 str, lolmag, 24.2 skl, 27 spd, 25.85 lck, 25.5 def, 16.25 res

26 Lethe

55.25 HP, 21.5 str, lolmag, 29 skl, 29 spd, 20.25 lck, 21.5 def, 22 res

Lethe can double a bit more enemies, but Mak has a lot more att (4 str, plus silver blades have 3 more mt than S-strike cat claw, plus he can also switch to better weapons too), and he's winning defense too. And he also has canto + no transformation issues.

And then Mak is getting like 16 more exp a kill, so he improves a lot faster than Lethe.

No way in fuck Mak's being 3rd tier in part 3. I will say she's pretty much worn out her welcome by part 4 though. It's salvageable, just..Yeah.

If level 26 for Lethe sounds too low for her in this comparison, consider that her 21 base level means she's leveling like a 20/20/2 beorc, which is higher than Titania, who was getting very meager exp gains as well. Like, 10 a kill or something that low. She might be like level 23 by the time Mak rejoins, who is going to be like 20/11 or so (use paragon in 3-9), which means 10 levels for Mak and 3 levels for Lethe. As a comparison for exp gains, a level 15 enemy in 3-11 would give 20/11 Mak 26.5 exp for a kill and 23 Lethe 4 exp for the same kill. Even factoring in BEXP, where Lethe levels like a 20/15 beorc or so with it, that sounds reasonable to me.

I suppose the argument would hinge on how much suck Lethe is building up from 3-4 to 3-10. I consider her being one of the worst GMs (like, better than Ilyana/Lyre. Kyza/Rolf are probably debatable, and loses to everyone else), so I find it to be a lot of suck.

Considering the main argument for Kyza>Lethe was giving him a goddamn speedwing when she was doubling anyways, a lot of things were blown out of proportion.

As for levels, Laguz tend to care more about strike rank than actual level. She's basically fast enough to function, all she cares for is more might, and she has plenty of time to get S strike when she needs it.

The only noticeable lead Danved has on Mak is some spd, but then Mak has a much higher spd growth (75 to 45). In fact, 20/17 Mak has the same spd as 20/18 Danved, and Danved only pulls slightly ahead because mak has spd capped, and then in 3rd tier their spd is basically the same (Danved wins by ~1 point, then Mak ties, then Mak wins by ~1 point, then caps spd, then Danved caps spd too).

And then Mak has more def (17 base to 15, and wins growth) and slightly more str (18 base to 17, same growth). Danved wins the more pointless stats like skl and res.

I suppose it could be argued that Danved's more useful in CRK chapters (since we already have Kieran/Geoffrey on mounts, while Danved can do things like jump up the ledges in 3-9), but that's very short. Admittedly I haven't looked at Danved vs Mak thoroughly, but I think Mak is better.

Mak needs 4 levels just to meet Danved's base, and Danved as is is struggling to double. Mak's starting durability is also a measily 2 defense in exchange for 2 HP, I'd hardly call it a crushing lead. They grow at a similar rate as well. Danved's also got things like range that doesn't blow, spears giving him an offense lead, and fire affinity. Another nifty thing about him is that he's a foot soldier, allowing someone to rescue him to basically build up a lightspeed support, like say Marcia or Geoff or Keiran.

Mak would have won for part 4 pre-endgame if it weren't for the fact that those chapters are all utterly mean to paladins. Statistically they're still similar aside from defense, but Danved's got an offense lead.

Looking it over more now though, I can see how similar they are outside of Danved's superiority part 2...Could you agree that they should at least be generally in the same tier?

Yes, Tanith (and Marcia for that matter) seriously need to drop. I mean, mid tier? Lower mid is much more appropriate.

Sigrun should stay put (I actually see her being lower, but w/e). She literally has the worst growth spread in the game, and a crown doesn't solve her issues because it could just be given to someone else. Anyway, if I wanted Sigrun to be promoted by 3-11, I'd just throw 2 BEXP levels on her.

Growth spread means dick in this game. Example, to basically finally tie Sigrun in speed, Tanith needs 5 levels to Sigrun's 4. Only from there on does Tanith has a speed lead, and that hits by endgame where both suck anyways. The usable speed Sigrun's got is better than Tanith's strength lead after crowning, that is until both are doubling reliably, where Tanith having 2 more STR would give her a minor offense lead. Then you have to consider that Tanith needs an avoid giving support to pull ahead of Sigrun with avoid (Sigrun's got 5 more luck), while Sigrun easier closes the offense gap with Water, which would also have her pull ahead defensively as well.

Basically, all Tanith has on Sigrun is a strength lead after 3 levels.

[Shadow Mir]

I don't know what "carbon" is supposed to mean but I've shown multiple times that Lethe's part 3 is not good in any way. At best you can say it's "below average," and that's when she's transformed.

You did no such thing, you ust said she sucked. Narga and I gave numbers, and I can prove those numbers if you want.

I dunno, Lethe is pretty bad. Her bases are only slightly better than Lyre's of all people, and she's got generally inferior growths...!

Mordy's growths suck too, let's throw him in the trash. As for slightly better than Lyre, how so? Lethe's got enough speed to double, has enough strength to pull offense some of your guys are doing anyways, and has strike level built up from part 2 and that chapter where she's an ally. On top of being basically almost as durable as Titania, I fail to see the problem outside of meter. I learned arguing her into like upper mid is a bit of a nutcase move, but bottom of lower mid really too much?

Lethe's bases over Lyre are:

HP by 4

Str by 2

lolwhocaresaboutmag

Skill by 2

Speed by 1

Luck, Def and Res by 2

And that's considering that Lethe starts 4 levels higher than Lyre. If that isn't "marginally better", I don't know what is!

[grandjackal]

Lethe's bases over Lyre are:

HP by 4

Str by 2

lolwhocaresaboutmag

Skill by 2

Speed by 1

Luck, Def and Res by 2

And that's considering that Lethe starts 4 levels higher than Lyre. If that isn't "marginally better", I don't know what is!

WOW, her untransformed bases, SO USEFUL! Let's look at the actual numbers...

4 HP

4 Str

Yeah, who gives a siht about magic unless you have lots of it?

4 Skill

2 Speed (24 is enough to double anything for the most part, and speed happens to be her second best growth...)

2 Luck

4 Def and Res.

Good way towards S strike.

C with Mordy giving her + 1 in ATK and DEF.

SO MARGINAL WOWWWWWW!!1+shift=!

Edited August 5, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Narga_Rocks]

Lethe's bases over Lyre are:

HP by 4

Str by 2

lolwhocaresaboutmag

Skill by 2

Speed by 1

Luck, Def and Res by 2

And that's considering that Lethe starts 4 levels higher than Lyre. If that isn't "marginally better", I don't know what is!

Well, there's the whole not needing bexp to double in 3-4 thing, the 27 mt with C Mordy no one else can even really have at this time anyway, compared to 22 mt. Enemies that have around 18 def are killed over twice as fast by Lethe, 4 times as fast if you don't give Lyre a large amount of bexp.

Then they both need bexp in 3-8, but Lethe had 2-2 and 2-E to build up exp (1 at a time, but still) and Lyre gets more exp per action, so they might use about the same amount there but Lyre already used so much more. Then there's Lethe having a closer run to S strike, and how an energy drop could make her offence better than most of your team, Lyre needs 3 drops and still won't match Lethe with one because Lethe has a support already and should have S strike by partway through 3-8. While their stats may not seem so different, their situations cause a great difference.

Not to mention, Lyre's defence and hp growths are pretty bad, so she's not closing that soon. As such, Lethe's earlier support level and superior defence/hp actually is a big difference.

Just look:

Lyre is 3HKOd between 30 mt and 37 mt

Lyre is 4HKOd between 26 mt and 29 mt

With C Mordy, Lethe has:

Lethe is 3HKOd between 36 mt and 44 mt

Lethe is 4HKOd between 32 mt and 35 mt

Lethe is 5HKOd between 30 mt and 31 mt

So, there are a fair number of enemies in part 3 with 30 or 31 might, mostly halbs along the way. Anyway, these guys 3HKO Lyre and 5HKO Lethe. Big difference.

The warriors sitting between 32 mt and 35 mt 4HKO Lethe but 3HKO Lyre.

Anything that is 4HKOing Lyre is 6HKOing Lethe or possibly taking 7 or 8.

Basically, while the def and hp difference may not seem all that large, it is pretty big when we look at what it means.

Oh, and fire mages are pulling 2HKO on Lyre but 3HKO on Lethe, despite the effective damage they do. The wind sages (28 mt) basically get laughed at by Lethe. 8HKOd. Lyre is 4HKOd. The thunder sages generally pull 18 or 19 crit, so Lyre faces 3% crit and Lethe only 1%. Anyway, assuming no crits, Lethe is 11HKOd by the 26 mt thunder sages. 4 consecutive crits needed to KO. Lyre is 6HKOd. 2 crits only. Lethe basically obliterates Lyre's magic durability, and beats her physical durability pretty handily as well. Offensively, it's also pretty embarrassing for Lyre.

I think it's a fair bit more than "marginally better". More like, 2 times better? And against halbs it's like 3 times better. Against generals it's infinite, but Lethe should be kept away from them anyway.

[Progenitus]

Mordy's growths suck too, let's throw him in the trash.

wtf? What does mordy's growths have to do with Lethe?

As for slightly better than Lyre, how so? Lethe's got enough speed to double, has enough strength to pull offense some of your guys are doing anyways, and has strike level built up from part 2 and that chapter where she's an ally. On top of being basically almost as durable as Titania, I fail to see the problem outside of meter. I learned arguing her into like upper mid is a bit of a nutcase move, but bottom of lower mid really too much?

No, Lethe already runs into doubling issues by 3-8. The halbs and stuff have at least 21 spd by then. And since Lethe levels so slowly, it's unlikely she'll gain a level, let alone proc speed from it (which only happens 50% of the time).

And then even with doubling, she's STILL doing poor damage. Consider a 17 def warrior in 3-8. Lethe does like double 9s. This means a unit with 35 att does the same damage in one hit that Lethe does in two. Oscar of all people can scrounge up 35 att.

And that's like, the best matchup for Lethe. Halbs have more def, generals have even more, she can't double swordmasters... technically it's not as bad against snipers and sages, but they 2-range and waste her gauge, so w/e.

Even once she reaches S-strike, she only has slightly more than 30 att, which is still pretty poor, and then consider that it's going to take awhile before it goes up again.

Her durability for part 3 is fine. But, decent durability and poor offense is only mid tier material at best, but then you throw in transformation issues, and you get lower mid.

And that's for part 3. In part 4 it gets even worse for her, since her durability now drops to "meh", because she hardly gained any levels and what was fine for part 3 isn't fine for part 4 anymore, and she still has poor offense, on top of the laguz transformation issues. So now she's like, low.

No way in fuck Mak's being 3rd tier in part 3. I will say she's pretty much worn out her welcome by part 4 though. It's salvageable, just..Yeah.

...why is it that when people complain about the level for one unit, they completely ignore what level I made the other unit?

If you noticed, I made Lethe level 26. No, Mak isn't 3rd tier in part 3, but Lethe isn't level 26 in part 3 either. I never said those levels happened in part 3 either. I even said Mak is like 20/12 in 3-11. Read my posts next time, please.

I just made this comparison as a "down the line at a random time" area to show that Mak can quickly pass Lethe.

I don't know what you mean by "worn out her welcome". Are you implying that Lethe was actually good in part 3? She's below average even in part 3, and all she's doing with her fighting is just sucking and consuming resources. That's not a positive at all. Mak not doing anything for those chapters > Lethe sucking. Even if she was somehow average, that's still not much better than Mak not even existing for those chapters.

Considering the main argument for Kyza>Lethe was giving him a goddamn speedwing when she was doubling anyways, a lot of things were blown out of proportion.

What? Lethe is borderline doubling for like, all of part 3, outside of 3-4. 24 spd stops doubling warriors/halbs/etc. by 3-8. Kyza may literally require a speedwing, but Lethe isn't that much better offense. And Kyza has slightly better durability and gauge, and also gains levels faster, and has 4 more att, and a slightly better affinity. Basically, Lethe has 2 more spd, and Kyza wins like everything else.

As for levels, Laguz tend to care more about strike rank than actual level. She's basically fast enough to function, all she cares for is more might, and she has plenty of time to get S strike when she needs it.

The only laguz who don't worry about actual level are the really good ones like Volug and the hawks who have such good stats anyway. Laguz like Lethe have poor stats, so they really want more levels, on top of building the strike rank.

And "more mt" is an understatement. You don't seem to realize how poor 26 base att is.

Looking it over more now though, I can see how similar they are outside of Danved's superiority part 2...Could you agree that they should at least be generally in the same tier?

...I never noticed that Mak was a tier above Danved. In that case, sure. They should move closer.

Growth spread means dick in this game. Example, to basically finally tie Sigrun in speed, Tanith needs 5 levels to Sigrun's 4. Only from there on does Tanith has a speed lead, and that hits by endgame where both suck anyways.

Both suck, but Tanith is far more salvageable.

The usable speed Sigrun's got is better than Tanith's strength lead after crowning, that is until both are doubling reliably, where Tanith having 2 more STR would give her a minor offense lead. Then you have to consider that Tanith needs an avoid giving support to pull ahead of Sigrun with avoid (Sigrun's got 5 more luck), while Sigrun easier closes the offense gap with Water, which would also have her pull ahead defensively as well.

Basically, all Tanith has on Sigrun is a strength lead after 3 levels.

"usable speed"? I don't see many enemies where Tanith's 25 spd after crowning wouldn't double but Sigrun's 26 would, at least not in 3-11 or 3-E, since by part 4 all the beorcs will be gaining exp like mad, which will easily allow Tanith to close any leads Sigrun had.

I guess if we didn't crown them then maybe, since a lot of enemies in 3-11 ahve 19-20 spd, but meh. It's only one chapter anyway.

SO MARGINAL WOWWWWWW!!1+shift=!

I would consider +4 att/2 spd/4 def over one of the worst characters in the game to be marginal. But that's just me. Maybe my standards are too high =(

[grandjackal]

I can see we agree on the most part with Danved-Mak and Tanith-Sigrun (I do agree that Tanith is salvageable, but Sigrun does have her own advantages).

...

Wait, 3RKO warriors? I could have sworn I...

*doublechecks stats*

....RRRRRR, Checked the wrong goddamn chapter stats! *blows up the world*

[Narga_Rocks]

No, Lethe already runs into doubling issues by 3-8. The halbs and stuff have at least 21 spd by then. And since Lethe levels so slowly, it's unlikely she'll gain a level, let alone proc speed from it (which only happens 50% of the time).

She takes a whopping 12% of our bexp resources and never needs another drop in part 3. She's getting 26 speed for 3-8, considering it's her 2nd highest growth by .15 over 4th.

And then even with doubling, she's STILL doing poor damage. Consider a 17 def warrior in 3-8. Lethe does like double 9s. This means a unit with 35 att does the same damage in one hit that Lethe does in two. Oscar of all people can scrounge up 35 att.

More like double 10s, considering she has a Mordy support. Then there's the whole 5th chapter thing. How many battles are you not letting her have in 4 chapters? She doubles everything but swordmasters in those chapters, so she needs like 8 per chapter and then 3 in 3-8 and she'll grab S strike. Now she has 32 mt with C Mordy and is outdamaging most of your non-doublers, unless you think they have 47 mt at this point. (she does 28 vs. 18 def enemies, so they need 47 mt. Against 21 def halbs they need 43 so that's doable for some, but not all of your non-doublers. Generals are obviously bad).

And that's like, the best matchup for Lethe. Halbs have more def, generals have even more, she can't double swordmasters... technically it's not as bad against snipers and sages, but they 2-range and waste her gauge, so w/e.

Even once she reaches S-strike, she only has slightly more than 30 att, which is still pretty poor, and then consider that it's going to take awhile before it goes up again.

Once she nabs S she's looking at winning offence against anything that doesn't double, except tying vs. halbs and losing vs. swordmasters and generals. Aside from not having a crit chance anyway.

Her durability for part 3 is fine. But, decent durability and poor offense is only mid tier material at best, but then you throw in transformation issues, and you get lower mid.

And that's for part 3. In part 4 it gets even worse for her, since her durability now drops to "meh", because she hardly gained any levels and what was fine for part 3 isn't fine for part 4 anymore, and she still has poor offense, on top of the laguz transformation issues. So now she's like, low.

I still don't see why you think they have to stick around forever. Her durability isn't even worse than Mak's until his promotion thanks to his lack of supports (like, A by 4-3/4/5 at best) and lowish bases. She's basically better for a while and then about the same. Then he promotes and there is one chapter left before endgame when neither should be going anyway. He needs level 17 before he even gets ~25 speed anyway, so he's never even doubling until, well, never. So if Lethe goes with Micaiah she's actually doubling stuff in 4-P, so again beats his damage output. So she's beating him offensively and beating or tying him until his promotion, where there is one pre 4-E chapter remaining. The only thing he can say is "no gauge" and "canto". Not exactly enough to overcome being outdamaged and out-durabilitied then eventually tying durability while still being outdamaged. And if he gets hit by magic, well, he isn't doing so hot defensively there. She can basically be critted by a thunder mage for the same damage he takes normally. So I'm not exactly seeing how Mak's better. Certainly not a tier better.

...why is it that when people complain about the level for one unit, they completely ignore what level I made the other unit?

If you noticed, I made Lethe level 26. No, Mak isn't 3rd tier in part 3, but Lethe isn't level 26 in part 3 either. I never said those levels happened in part 3 either. I even said Mak is like 20/12 in 3-11. Read my posts next time, please.

I just made this comparison as a "down the line at a random time" area to show that Mak can quickly pass Lethe.

While not even saying when this is actually happening. He isn't promoting before 4-3/4/5, anyway, and those chapters aren't exactly paladin friendly. In 4-4 he basically spends the entire time moving, and while he could help clear out the bottom right, that's about all he'd be doing.

I don't know what you mean by "worn out her welcome". Are you implying that Lethe was actually good in part 3? She's below average even in part 3, and all she's doing with her fighting is just sucking and consuming resources. That's not a positive at all. Mak not doing anything for those chapters > Lethe sucking. Even if she was somehow average, that's still not much better than Mak not even existing for those chapters.

But Mak basically sucks in 3-11 and 3-E and part 4 compared to the rest of your units worse than Lethe was "sucking" relative to the GMs in part 3. In part 4 Lethe doesn't even need to be deployed to accumulate more "less losing" than Mak does in part 4. Or just not have either deployed outside of part 2 and 3-9 and she's still likely winning.

What? Lethe is borderline doubling for like, all of part 3, outside of 3-4. 24 spd stops doubling warriors/halbs/etc. by 3-8. Kyza may literally require a speedwing, but Lethe isn't that much better offense. And Kyza has slightly better durability and gauge, and also gains levels faster, and has 4 more att, and a slightly better affinity. Basically, Lethe has 2 more spd, and Kyza wins like everything else.

Considering until 3-E the warriors aren't pulling 23 speed anyway, and there might be like two of them in 3-E anyway she's not borderline, really. She gets a small amount of bexp in 3-8, and doubles forever so he is losing offence miserably. Then she pulls S strike long before he does (he doesn't double and she has 2 chapters on him as well) and annihilates him. He's two chapters behind support building and so his "slightly better affinity" means nothing. See, here you use slightly better durability correctly. 20 def vs. 19 (C Mordy) and 55 hp vs. 51. Basically, the values for enemy mt. for #HKO goes up by like 2. But then you might want to consider the "slightly better" since he's got 10 less res, and while she has C Mordy before he has C anything, ditto A vs. B unless he takes +def, she's got 11 more res. Anyway, he's 2HKOd by fire and 4HKOd by thunder and wind mages. She's sitting at 3HKOd from fire, 8HKOd from wind sages, 11HKOd from thunder. And he's got 4 less luck so thunder is more likely to crit him. Basically, if even one mage attacks before healing she beats his durability, too.

So, I gave her ~70 pts worth of bexp, which turns to around 2000 or so. Giving Kyza that doesn't even net him a level, btw, but let's give him one anyway. Oh, if he takes that 2700 he needs in 3-4 he's taking a large chunk of our bexp, like 40% or something compared to Lethe's 12% in 3-8. Still, let's pretend for the moment that it's fair. He gets HP, lck, and skl or def. So Skill is more likely than Defense, and Spd is very unlikely. So taking HP, lck, def, means he still has 3 less lck than Lethe and halbs can crit him but not her, still, and thunder mages are more likely to do so. He now has #HKO values of like 4 higher mt score, so now his durability margin is actually pretty good, although he's still blitzed by mages compared to her, so one mage now makes them even or a small win for Lethe, rather than a big one.

Still, he's more likely to take HP, skl, lck, which means almost nothing for the durability comparison. Gauge differences are not enough to make up for being spanked offensively all of part 3.

The only laguz who don't worry about actual level are the really good ones like Volug and the hawks who have such good stats anyway. Laguz like Lethe have poor stats, so they really want more levels, on top of building the strike rank.

Sure, she'd like levels, but strike is enough to bump her above mak, offensively anyway since he doesn't double.

And "more mt" is an understatement. You don't seem to realize how poor 26 base att is.

And Mak's pulling 31 mt in his chapters with a steel blade until his 40% str growth starts working. Even 5 levels before 3-11 (not likely anyway) means 34 mt in 3-11 with a forged steel. By 3-11 she's looking at 33 mt (A Mordy) and doubling. She's got one mt less than him. He slowly builds up speed, but won't accomplish doubling anything in part 3, nor in part 4 when his 25 spd cap means no doubling until promotion. He must take a crown, which is better used by others, even if it goes to a level 20 character because they'll all give more to the team with it. So he's looking at 4-3/4/5 for promotion, or if he takes a crown from others then she should at least get something. Oh, and a bit of bexp for him to be fair wouldn't give him more than 70% of a level anyway, so it isn't changing much. He can't even have a silver forge until 4-2/3/4/5, but since you always say you assume non fliers/non laguz go with Ike then he doesn't get the forge until 4-4. So he's losing offence until 4-4, and losing durability until part 4 and tying until promotion.

I would consider +4 att/2 spd/4 def over one of the worst characters in the game to be marginal. But that's just me. Maybe my standards are too high =(

I think you are misrepresenting the issue here. She stomps lyre. While it isn't impressive, that has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not her advantage over Lyre is marginal. All that matters when calling it marginally better is Lethe vs. Lyre, forget everything else. She crushes Lyre offensively and defensively. It isn't marginal, get over it. You said:

I dunno, Lethe is pretty bad. Her bases are only slightly better than Lyre's of all people, and she's got generally inferior growths...!

See, what we are disputing here is not how good Lethe's bases are compared to the team. We are disputing your statement that they are only slightly better than Lyre's. And Jonathan Aulin's assertion that Lethe's bases are only marginally better.

We are not saying anything about how good Lethe's bases may or may not be overall, or at least I'm not. Merely pointing out that your statement is flawed beyond all reason.

The point itself may be marginal, but her lead over Lyre is not a marginal lead by any stretch of the imagination.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Progenitus]

I was going to respond to narga's entire post, but then I saw this...

I still don't see why you think they have to stick around forever.

So you're saying we can just drop them at any time and not care what performance they have after that certain point?

Hey look, I use Mak for 2-3 and 3-9, and he actually manages to get some sort of positive out of it, because we're short on units and everyone is helping, and he actually stacks up against Kieran/Geoffrey fairly well, the best units in those chapters (basically matching their durability, loses damage by 5ish points). It's at least some minor positive utility.

Where's the positive in using Lethe for part 3, with her middling offense/durability and transformation issues?

Oh wait, there is none.

She can't even get a positive in part 2, since having her attack on a regular basis and consuming grasses is grasses that could've gone to Nealuchi or Mordy. Or hell even Leanne so she can transform and get +1 move for more wiggle room with her canto and vigors.

I don't even need to respond to the rest of your post. you just dug your own grave.

[grandjackal]

I was going to respond to narga's entire post, but then I saw this...

I still don't see why you think they have to stick around forever.

So you're saying we can just drop them at any time and not care what performance they have after that certain point?

Hey look, I use Mak for 2-3 and 3-9, and he actually manages to get some sort of positive out of it, because we're short on units and everyone is helping, and he actually stacks up against Kieran/Geoffrey fairly well, the best units in those chapters (basically matching their durability, loses damage by 5ish points). It's at least some minor positive utility.

Where's the positive in using Lethe for part 3, with her middling offense/durability and transformation issues?

Oh wait, there is none.

She can't even get a positive in part 2, since having her attack on a regular basis and consuming grasses is grasses that could've gone to Nealuchi or Mordy. Or hell even Leanne so she can transform and get +1 move for more wiggle room with her canto and vigors.

I don't even need to respond to the rest of your post. you just dug your own grave.

2-3 and 3-9 also happen to have Keiran and Geoff who absolutely headstomp Mak(even Danved's doing better), and the fact that you have a ton of throwaway cavs to do the job of everyone else not Geoff and Keiran. That is a HARD unit to compare against, a unit you do not have to care about keeping alive. To contribute greatly to a cause, you better be quite a bit above these guys, and considering that even fucking Danved is outperforming Mak...

At least Lethe's comparing to actual units on the team here.

[dondon151]

I'm pretty sure that Lethe can get at least a level by 3-8. She can get a couple of rounds of untransformed combat (like 2) and then EXP from combat and kills can probably add up to a total of 100, even if she levels like a 20/20/2 beorc.

[Progenitus]

2-3 and 3-9 also happen to have Keiran and Geoff who absolutely headstomp Mak(even Danved's doing better),

How do Kieran adn Geof "headstomp" Mak? They have virtually the same durability, and they have a bit more att, but Mak gains levels faster (especially vs Geof). Mak doesn't need to be better than them to be considered useful. For example, he can hold a chokepoint if Kieran/Geof are low on HP or are busy doing something else. Bam. Useful right there.

And how is Danved doing better? At least by a significant amount? You admitted earlier that Danved has issues doubling, so there goes his spd lead, and then Mak wins like everything else. Even if they're marginal leads, they're better than nothing.

and the fact that you have a ton of throwaway cavs to do the job of everyone else not Geoff and Keiran.

Except you have little control over these guys, which means they could epicly screw up a plan. For example, it's pretty hard to have an NPC stay at a chokepoint unless you put them on halt, but then that halts ALL the NPCs.

Also, even if these NPCs are better than Mak at fighting, he can still do things. For example, he can save houses in 3-9, which means the NPC paladins don't have to waste their turn saving them, which means they can go and attack something.

That is a HARD unit to compare against, a unit you do not have to care about keeping alive.

If we're never using Mak again outside of CRK chapters, we don't care if he stays alive or not either.

To contribute greatly to a cause, you better be quite a bit above these guys, and considering that even fucking Danved is outperforming Mak...

no, to "contribute greatly to a cause" (aka positive utility), you just need to be better than not existing.

Are you telling me that if Mak didn't exist for 2-3 and 3-9, you could actually go faster?

At least Lethe's comparing to actual units on the team here.

*comparing*? What I'm seeing is that she has a tough time beating out mid tier units like Boyd, which isn't good.

And the gap between the best of the CRKs (Kieran/Geof) and Mak is way bigger than the gap between the best of the GMs and Lethe.

EDIT: I meant smaller. Sorry for the confusion.

Edited August 5, 2009 by smash fanatic

[-Cynthia-]

And the gap between the best of the CRKs (Kieran/Geof) and Mak is way bigger than the gap between the best of the GMs and Lethe.

This is either backwards or contradicts your whole point.

[Narga_Rocks]

I was going to respond to narga's entire post, but then I saw this...

I still don't see why you think they have to stick around forever.

So you're saying we can just drop them at any time and not care what performance they have after that certain point?

Hey look, I use Mak for 2-3 and 3-9, and he actually manages to get some sort of positive out of it, because we're short on units and everyone is helping, and he actually stacks up against Kieran/Geoffrey fairly well, the best units in those chapters (basically matching their durability, loses damage by 5ish points). It's at least some minor positive utility.

It's not as if I'd disagree with the idea of comparing Mak in 2-3 and 2-E and 3-9 vs. Lethe in 2-2 and 2-E. If you think you can prove Mak > Lethe there by 11 spots and an entire tier difference then go ahead. I'd like to see you 7 turn 2-2 without Lethe. You can easily beat 2-3 without Mak. 2-E can be walled up without Lethe, sure, but all Mak does in 3-9 is a couple of weakenings or finishing offs, which is less than Lethe is doing in 2-2. Considering they are basically in different chapters (Mak in 2-E is starless) it would be a very subjective comparison, and while Mak might pull ahead slightly I don't see 11 spots.

Where's the positive in using Lethe for part 3, with her middling offense/durability and transformation issues?

Oh wait, there is none.

Durability is a bit more than middling, but offence is basically middle of the pack until S strike, and then slightly above middle. Transformation issues are, of course, constant. But she doesn't technically need part 3 anymore if Mak isn't using 3-11 and beyond.

She can't even get a positive in part 2, since having her attack on a regular basis and consuming grasses is grasses that could've gone to Nealuchi or Mordy. Or hell even Leanne so she can transform and get +1 move for more wiggle room with her canto and vigors.

Um, she doesn't even need to. There are ways to make her do stuff with just one olivi grass, even none, and she'll be way more help than Mak is in his few chapters. Seems like a waste to use on Leanne, though. She's transforming on turn 6 with one use, turn 3 with two uses. Don't forget she can't vigor in the turn she's grassing. Seems like it would be better if you could stick her in range of a thunder mage while making sure it's the only thing that can hit her, if you really want to tranform her. 2-E as well since you could just have her draw a longbow user (-80 hit, basically. Even with Leanne on worst bio they need at least good bio to have even 3% listed) to get gauge, or a mage since even doubling thunder mages can't kill her in 2-E.

I don't even need to respond to the rest of your post. you just dug your own grave.

Oh wow, so without even trying I managed to convince you that people don't have to be deployed after they are no longer helpful so now you'll stop the whole forcing units to eat a slot in endgame when they have no reason to go? Well, you'd better move Tormod up above Volke and Stefan in your character rating topic now, since he's more useful for more chapters. Especially since he's above the pack in part 1, whereas Volke and Stefan are always below it.

I don't see how I dug my own grave when you don't even agree with the idea. Be consistent. If you don't believe in the not deploying anymore thing, then refute the rest of the post where I basically showed that aside from 4-E and maybe 4-3/4/5 Lethe is beating Makalov in everything but having a gauge. And in some areas by a lot. She wins, or at least loses less badly to the team, in more chapters compared to Makalov than he "wins" compared to her. Even if you stupidly force her into 4-E she still either wins or comes close overall. It all depends on how much a negative the gauge is. If she can't even beat a unit she stomps offensively and beats or ties defensively, solely because of gauge, then I don't see how Ranulf is so high. For example, Oscar should be above Ranulf, then.

And how can Aran be so high in your topic when by your ideas he should be forced into his bad part 4?

2-3 and 3-9 also happen to have Keiran and Geoff who absolutely headstomp Mak(even Danved's doing better),

How do Kieran adn Geof "headstomp" Mak? They have virtually the same durability, and they have a bit more att, but Mak gains levels faster (especially vs Geof). Mak doesn't need to be better than them to be considered useful. For example, he can hold a chokepoint if Kieran/Geof are low on HP or are busy doing something else. Bam. Useful right there.

Well, there's a pretty nice headstomp by Geoffrey and his brave lance in 2-3. Not to mention all the 15 to 16 speed enemies that Makalov dosen't double but they do. Marcia gets that as well, considering 26 mt and doubling vs. 31 mt and not (steel lance vs. steel blade) is a win (no 21+ def enemies), and she has 18 spd with a steel greatlance so she's pulling 30 mt with that, so she's only down two when 18 spd doubles, and down one if 20 spd doesn't, though she should have a level from 2-P if you are trying to use her. For durability, 34 hp and 16 def isn't far from 37 hp and 17 def, the 3HKO values are only 2 higher, for example. Also, since we are trying to go through without killing too much, the enemies that need to die quick do not tend to have 14 speed or less.

Oh, against 15 speed enemies Marcia can grab the steel blade and pull 29 mt, really laying it into Makalov who's better.

So now he's fourth, and vs. Danved he's not winning offence since Danved has 20 spd with a steel greatlance and 21 spd with a steel lance. So 27 mt doubling up to 17 spd and 31 mt doubling 15 and 16 speed. So Mak's getting stomped on there. Durability, 2HP does not completely counteract 2 def, but it means that 3HKO values aren't far off, nor would 4HKO values be.

So he's 5th, only beating Astrid. Considering you made a whole debate where Nephenee was supposedly worse than Lethe, and Nephenee is way better than Astrid, it doesn't look good for Makalov.

And how is Danved doing better? At least by a significant amount? You admitted earlier that Danved has issues doubling, so there goes his spd lead, and then Mak wins like everything else. Even if they're marginal leads, they're better than nothing.

Here's the thing, by 3-9 Marcia with 5 levels (lots of thunder sages to kill in 2-E, boss of 2-P since a level for Marcia helps everyone more than 40 exp for Haar, a few things in 2-3) has the 23 speed needed to double a few things there, and the 17 str for a steel blade or simply give her a silver lance. Either way, she's pulling doubling on some things and a good amount of damage, Mak isn't doing so hot here. Geoffrey could still have the brave lance, even if not he does more damage and Kieran does lots more. Marcia actually closes the durability gap given more leveling opportunities and a better hp growth, and .35 def isn't great but it'll do something. She also starts lower leveled.

Point is, Lethe compares in 2-2 well enough, and could actually be used in 2-E if you want to clear the left area. There is no point wading through the general swarm in the east. They give less experience and no real advantage since the energy drop guy ends up near the front pretty soon. Since Elincia and Haar can handle the boss by flight, the only reason to clear anything is exp, and since the stuff on the left is easier to kill and you don't have to wade through as many non-promoted units, it is better to clear the left, and you actually get something for it (only a coin, but hey, the more coins you have the better your chances of a truly epic forge).

and the fact that you have a ton of throwaway cavs to do the job of everyone else not Geoff and Keiran.

Except you have little control over these guys, which means they could epicly screw up a plan. For example, it's pretty hard to have an NPC stay at a chokepoint unless you put them on halt, but then that halts ALL the NPCs.

Further demonstrating your interesting playing "skills". Try target for once? What are they doing on roam in 2-3 when you don't want them to kill stuff? I'd like the bishops to heal my units, but sadly that is counterproductive since the partners will destroy precious bexp. Trust me, Makalov and Danved do more good simply standing weaponless on a thicket than attempting to protect Kieran and Geoffrey from getting swarmed. That's what target is for. And the enemy is stupid so the onagers target the partners if they can.

Also, even if these NPCs are better than Mak at fighting, he can still do things. For example, he can save houses in 3-9, which means the NPC paladins don't have to waste their turn saving them, which means they can go and attack something.

Well, the npcs aren't really good at much, they have inaccurate weapons and I think no stars, so they miss lots. Really they are better stopping the fire in the south while your CRKs kill things.

That is a HARD unit to compare against, a unit you do not have to care about keeping alive.

If we're never using Mak again outside of CRK chapters, we don't care if he stays alive or not either.

Not deploying is different from not caring if they die. Though, Int seems to not have an issue for killing the LEA. Do you really want to agree with Int on something? It's you. That would be a crime against your very soul.

To contribute greatly to a cause, you better be quite a bit above these guys, and considering that even fucking Danved is outperforming Mak...

no, to "contribute greatly to a cause" (aka positive utility), you just need to be better than not existing.

Are you telling me that if Mak didn't exist for 2-3 and 3-9, you could actually go faster?

He gives a bit, but I'd argue Lethe is doing more in 2-2 than Mak in 3-9, even if she only acts on 4 out of 7 turns because of gauge.

At least Lethe's comparing to actual units on the team here.

*comparing*? What I'm seeing is that she has a tough time beating out mid tier units like Boyd, which isn't good.

And the gap between the best of the CRKs (Kieran/Geof) and Mak is way bigger than the gap between the best of the GMs and Lethe.

EDIT: I meant smaller. Sorry for the confusion.

Um, if Mak doesn't need to go in 3-11 and beyond now then Lethe doesn't need to go in part 3. He does not do so well in 3-9 to be so much higher than Lethe. The gap between Kieran/Geof/Marcia/Danved in 2-3 and Kieran/Geof/Marcia in 3-9 is bigger than any gap Lethe faces in part 2. Lethe faces a pretty big gap in 2-E, yes, but offensively she only gets stomped on by Elincia. Otherwise she's fine. Defensively only Brom and Mordy beat her, but she beats Brom offensively and Mordy against some in 2-2 though not many in 2-E. Anyway, overall the gap isn't as great for Lethe.

And why are you still arguing in the Mak doesn't get deployed beyond 3-9 way of thinking? Don't you normally berate Interceptor when he starts arguing from a standpoint in which he doesn't even believe but he takes the idea and runs with it? How is what you are doing any different? Unless I did somehow convince you of the idea.

[grandjackal]

I'm pretty sure that Lethe can get at least a level by 3-8. She can get a couple of rounds of untransformed combat (like 2) and then EXP from combat and kills can probably add up to a total of 100, even if she levels like a 20/20/2 beorc.

1 level in 7-8 chapters...

Paragon would effectively cut that in half, wouldn't it? Say what you want about using it effectively, but beorc units don't gain effectively 2 points for their stat gains either.

[-Cynthia-]

1 level in 7-8 chapters...

Paragon would effectively cut that in half, wouldn't it? Say what you want about using it effectively, but beorc units don't gain effectively 2 points for their stat gains either.

There's only one Paragon available for those chapters, and it's probably not even with the GMs anyway. It's much easier to argue Paragon usage from 3-11(and in 3-9) on, because we have 2-3 floating around. Before that though, it's very highly contested, multiple units on both teams get a lot of use out of it, and Lethe utilizes it worst than most.

[grandjackal]

1 level in 7-8 chapters...

Paragon would effectively cut that in half, wouldn't it? Say what you want about using it effectively, but beorc units don't gain effectively 2 points for their stat gains either.

There's only one Paragon available for those chapters, and it's probably not even with the GMs anyway. It's much easier to argue Paragon usage from 3-11(and in 3-9) on, because we have 2-3 floating around. Before that though, it's very highly contested, multiple units on both teams get a lot of use out of it, and Lethe utilizes it worst than most.

Nyeh...Perhaps I was grasping there. At least by 3-11, it'll be a bit more reasonable to have her nab a chance for it. By then, the team level has caught up to hers in a way, so it won't be so overblown considering.

...With elite, would 31 by auras be unreasonable? ;;>>