OMG it's a tier list

[Progenitus]

Whoever she's being compared to (I'm guessing Mak) could also get the same paragon.

31 by 4-E-5 should be easy even without paragon. What does that have to do with anything though?

Edited August 5, 2009 by smash fanatic

[grandjackal]

Whoever she's being compared to (I'm guessing Mak) could also get the same paragon.

31 by 4-E-5 should be easy even without paragon. What does that have to do with anything though?

Believe me, I know I'm grasping here, just curious really.

As for that having something to do with anything, she gains 34 AS by that level, enough to double auras with Nasir's help. Looking at her might though, she'd need help from Blood Tide as well...

...Blood tide gives you 5 STRENGTH and not 5 DAMAGE, right? Uhh...;;>> Laguz hump Gareth and Ena's leg much?

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm pretty sure that Lethe can get at least a level by 3-8. She can get a couple of rounds of untransformed combat (like 2) and then EXP from combat and kills can probably add up to a total of 100, even if she levels like a 20/20/2 beorc.

1 level in 7-8 chapters...

Paragon would effectively cut that in half, wouldn't it? Say what you want about using it effectively, but beorc units don't gain effectively 2 points for their stat gains either.

Well, if we actually want to try to use db members like Nolan and Jill, they are going to need paragon in part 3. So, it's not happening until 3-11 with the CRK's paragons. At which point, she might actually be getting respectable exp with paragon, though I'm not sure. Still though, there are units that gain more use out of it than Lethe. Maybe in part 4 if Lethe must go to 4-E just to make her part 3 and Mak's 3-11, 3-E and early 4 matter. At that point, paragon doesn't seem like such a waste anymore. Paragon in 4-P would likely let her double in 4-3 a bit. Who knows? Still, even with SS strike her 4-E has issues. Even if we give her level 29 (likely an overestimate for 4-E-1 without paragon in 4-P) and round up strength and assume Mordy goes to endgame with her, she's looking at 44 mt and doubling. Basically 2 or 3RKOing the generals. The 30/31 def generals get 4HKOd, the 32/33 def generals are 5HKOd. One rounds the sages, though.

Drop her level a bit, at level 27 she's pulling 42 mt (40 without Mordy, but that doesn't matter) and 2RKOing all of them and some are 5 hit others are 6 hit. Also a small number of generals have 27 speed an might not get doubled, causing 6 rounding. Then there are cover tiles, ugh. Still, all but the fire sages are still one rounded at level 27 and 42 mt. Anyway, 4-E-2 is only kind to her if she pulled 34 speed, though I suppose 32 speed means all but swordmasters and warriors are doubled. So 32 speed is level 29, which could be doable after 4-E-1. The trouble is she's 3 rounding the previous map if she was only level 27, so getting 2 levels while being basically 20/20/14 isn't easy when you are 3 rounding. Of course, she is still ORKOing sages and that helps with exp getting. Anyway, a 32 speed Lethe means 3HKOing halbs, so 2 rounding thanks to doubling. 3 rounding warriors since she doesn't double them, and almost but not quite 2 rounding swordmasters, so 3 again. Snipers are 3HKOd, so 2 rounded thanks to doubline.

Anyway, then comes dragons. Let's be really nice to Lethe and assume level 30. It might be possible, it might even be easy, though I doubt it. Still, a bit of bexp since that 12.5% from earlier has likely dropped by now a fair amount so she could have a shot at some more. That helps a little. Paragon if we are willing in 4-P likely helps, though that would mean paragon to mak at some point in the comparison.

Anyway, because I want rend, I'm doing it. So, 34 speed, since she's at 16.5 but we forced speed to 13 with bexp in 3-8 so from level 22 to level 30 is 8 levels and a 50% growth or 17 total speed. Anyway, so she does double zeros to degh, so the 34 speed doesn't actually matter in this chapter anyway so a level here gets her 34 speed for the spirits and auras anyway. Now, she has 34 speed, as I said, so with doubling she's pulling 56.44% chance of rending. Now, rending multiplies str by 5, so 24 str becomes 120, and she has 18 mt from SS. So 138 mt, against 77hp and 37 def, or say 38 def. Basically, a OHKO. So she's pulling a 56.44% chance of killing a red, and even on a cover tile she only needs A strike to take them down. Heck, SS strike and 11x2x5 str would do it, too, so if we drop str by .35 because of that bexp level earlier she's still okay. Oh, and 43.56% of the time she does (44-37) x 2 damage, so only 14/77 damage to reds and that's a 6RKO, though in 3 rounds she's pulling a 91.73% chance of pulling off at least one rend. Still, she clearly needs lvl 30, somehow, to be useful against reds. As for whites, (44-23)x2=42/72 damage, so that's a 2RKO or 4 hits, though in 3 hits she's got a 71.25% chance of pulling out a rend. So whites don't really like meeting her much, though they do just barely pull a 2HKO on her.

Then in 4-E-4 she's ORKOing the spirits, or 2RKOing if they are on a cover tile. On top of that, she's doing 28 damage to wardwood auras with nasir, and if a red dragon just happens to be where she's attacking from it's 38 damage. Not great, but more than anyone not doubling (be it from speed or a brave weapon) is doing, unless they have 58 mt (some do), though no beorc that doesn't double will do more with a red, since they need 63 mt pre blood tide and beorc don't get that high unless you are Boyd with Urvan and a support and max str. Anyway, she misses out on turn 1 so that's obviously an issue there.

Now, let's give Mak a twin swords forged silver with max crit on it, and level 20/13 (for 4-E-3) just for kicks. A bit extreme on his level, too, even with one chapter of paragon. So, 30 str, throw in a +mt support out of nowhere and give him his epic forge. 52 mt, and 29 crit with that sword. So he's pulling 17 crit on some, 16 on others, but let's be generous. He's also got a 14% sol, so let's go with doubling these things, 17% crit, and 14% sol. Now, with 52-37=15 he needs an activation on both attacks just to kill, since either way it's x3 and sadly it doesn't stun or anything if he doesn't kill. So, he's doing 30 damage to her 14 damage 43.56% of the time, but she kills when she activates so that's something. Anyway, in a single attack the chance of him either sol-ing or criting should be 1-(.83x.86), or 28.62%. Then he needs to do that on both attacks, so 8.19% chance of one rounding a red. Also a 50.95% chance of doing neither, so he'd only do 30 damage 50.95% of the time. That leaves 40.86% chance of activating once and doing 60 damage, leaving it with 17 hp remaining and requiring him to either activate on his next first hit or take another counter.

Anyway, expected damage would be mean to Makalov because Lethe overkills the thing with one activation so when she kills the extra damage doesn't much matter. Plus she can do a normal attack first then a rend to cause even more pain. Still, I can do a modified version taking 77 damage for 56.44% of the time, and 14 damage for 43.56% of the time. Making an expected damage of: 49.5264 damage.

Mak's doing 30 damage 50.95% of the time, 60 damage 40.86% of the time, and 77 damage 8.19% of the time (again, not using 90 since dead is dead). 46.1073 damage. Pretty close, really.

But she kills more often, almost 7 times more often, though that's accounted for in the expected value. Obviously, we could even calculate other values to find out the range of damage and how likely how far away is, but really on average she tops him.

He should do better on whites, though. I think.

(52 - 23) x 2 = 58 damage, and a single activation kills. So now he's looking at dead or 58 damage. She looks at dead or 42 damage.

Remember, he's pulling a 28.62% activation, but now only needs it once: 1-(.7138^2)=49.05%. So he's actually pulling at least one activation a good amount of the time so he'll kill a fair amount of the time. So, 49.05% chance of doing 72 damage, and 50.95% chance of doing 58 damage. Expected damage: 64.867

She has a 56.44% chance of doing 72 and a 43.56% chance of doing 42. Expected damage: 58.932

So, he wins vs. whites by more than she wins vs. reds, but in either case she is more likely to KO.

Really, she isn't doing so badly here. The problem is it's contingent on lvl 30. But I think she can actually pull that off by now, anyway.

Besides, I gave Mak a 20 mt weapon with 15 crit. I suppose he could stand next to Marcia to boost his crit rate, but then you'd have to use Marcia and you hate her for some reason. Anyway, if we get a twin swords card are we really giving it to Mak?

So anyway, since I'm not assuming rend in the previous chapters Mak wins if he doubles, and in 4-E-1 he needs 54 mt to beat her against 31 def generals if he's less than 20/5. Since he should be 20/5 if we gave him paragon once, it doesn't really matter, and he's looking at 27 str so he needs a silver forge or the vague katti to beat Lethe's 42 mt. No problem, really. And he'll have sol and possibly crit and she'll have neither. Then he needs 20/8 to double what she does in 4-E-2. Again, no real issue. So he beats her by a little bit, but still 3HKOs warriors (3 rounding without 20/9) and still 4 hits the generals even with vague katti, and 3HKOs (2 rounds) halbs, just like Lethe. So the only real difference is the generals. Though warriors get 2 rounded instead of 3 if his level is high enough and hers is low enough. All in all, he slighlty beats or slightly as far as offence is concerned, so even when you throw in 4-E, that's not enough to counteract his losses to her previously. Then comes the spirits and auras where she wins thanks to 34 speed. Oh, and even if spirits are on a cover tile she obliterates if she rends. Mak gets one hit on all spirits except thunder, and he needs 20/18 with a +mt support to one round thunder spirits on cover with the alondite. (they have 23 def, not 20). (32 str + 18 mt + 2 fire/dark/water = 52 mt). So basically he's even where thunder is concerned if he's less than 20/18, discounting skills anyway. With skills, she's far more likely to rend than he is to sol, and alondite doesn't have 15 crit to help out.

He loses to her against fire and wind, since he's not doubling without Nasir, and he loses against wardwood auras. Cover tile auras he only needs 48 mt to beat her 44, so no real issue. But when she doubles, he needs 58 mt just to tie, and that's not happening. Oh, I forgot, if you pump him from C axes to A axes after his promotion he can have a forged silver axe for an extra 2 damage, so he'll likely pull ahead with that on red dragons though I'd have to confirm to know for sure. Still, unless you use arms scrolls he's not likely getting A axes until 4-E-2. And he'd still be taking a twin swords, because the calculations with a sword card would be the same for the axe as the twin swords card was for the sword.

Anyway, so she loses 4-E-5 if it's 2 turned, wins if it's 4 turned, and probably ties if it's 3 turned.

And she's losing durability by a fair bit until 4-E-4, where she's tying or slightly winning, thanks to his bad base res. But they are both 2HKOd by whites and he's still 3HKOd by reds, possibly 2HKOd depending on level and enemy mt. Some reds have 58 mt and 2HKO until ~ 20/9 or 10 anyway, (assuming A support active) some have 56 mt and 3HKO after ~20/7. 2HKO before and possibly at.

Anyway, his durability lead mostly makes itself known in the first two chapters. And she now only really misses out on turn 1 player phases, thanks to the gem.

Point of all this is, though, she doesn't lose to him statistically in 4-E by as much as he was losing to her in 3-11, 3-E and 4-P/1/2. Meaning, again, that he's got a mountain to climb to be a tier higher and 11 units higher. The gauge issue obviously assists him, but I don't think it climbs the mountain to the top. Especially since there was a fair amount of favouritism in Mak's court to get him to where I got him in 4-E in the first place.

Well, the point of all this was actually to have fun with math, but let me just pretend I had a different reason.

Oh, and pretty boi, it gives +5 period. The addition numbers don't get multiplied by two. They are +5 when untransformed, and +5 when transformed. It's annoying, but of this I'm fairly sure.

[grandjackal]

Alright, just making sure.

Hmm...Seems she could be plenty good even in part 4. Not awesome by any means, but...;;>>

[Narga_Rocks]

Alright, just making sure.

Hmm...Seems she could be plenty good even in part 4. Not awesome by any means, but...;;>>

Well, if you can get rend earlier than 4-E-3, she'll be even better. Remember, since rend is 5x str it basically annihilates everything. Unlike Sol vs. reds it's a nuke. She could have base str (never gain a point in 9 levels) and have A strike (don't know how she'd get 9 levels, but oh well) and the only thing that rend wouldn't OHKO is reds (and deg and ashera and auras, but they have mantle so who cares). 18 str x 5 =90 and A strike makes 98. Even kills white dragons. Rend is actually rather disgusting. She could be tinking against generals and still have over a 50% chance of killing them (thanks to doubling, if she's doubling). Well, she'd need speed above base otherwise it would only be 24%, but in 9 levels she has to get something, right? Just picture the general looking at Lethe attacking. He just watches her tink on his buddy on player phase, and Micaiah came over and thani bombed and then someone else killed it. So he says I'll attack the unit that just did no damage to my buddy. Attack, Lethe takes damage or dodges, whatever. Counter, first attack, tink. General smirks. Maybe mocks her a bit. Lethe smirks back: Second attack, ripped to shreds. Think of the look of shock on his face.

You still have to actually raise her, though. And let her have some inferior enemy phase action (though it's only inferior to a few depending on who's doubling) in part 3 to build strike and have her miss some player phase action due to grassing. Don't get too ahead of yourself on the Lethe train.

[grandjackal]

I try not to get hyped, and yet there you go dropping the Rend bomb on me. Just makes me think of Lyre again.

Lyre's too damn odd. An advantage she has over the other two cats is she can realistically get to 38 AS, allowing her to double auras without Nasir. Yet until she gains the speed she needs to double (2 levels, yet levels up like she's Shinon), and another point to double reliably later part 3 (only 1 level mercifully), but then you gotta consider the goddamn strike rank.

From there, you sort of have to give her Wrath to hep her offense, as great as someone doubling can put wrath to good use (as even considering, she's still pretty durable (though by no means perfect) and has help with her thunder affinity).

Part 4 endgame, you basically have shown how deadly Rend is, the question is how we got her 13 levels in that time ;;>>

....I really want Lyre to not be bottom T.T I really do....As much a useless battle I know that will be.

[Narga_Rocks]

I try not to get hyped, and yet there you go dropping the Rend bomb on me. Just makes me think of Lyre again.

Lyre's too damn odd. An advantage she has over the other two cats is she can realistically get to 38 AS, allowing her to double auras without Nasir. Yet until she gains the speed she needs to double (2 levels, yet levels up like she's Shinon), and another point to double reliably later part 3 (only 1 level mercifully), but then you gotta consider the goddamn strike rank.

From there, you sort of have to give her Wrath to hep her offense, as great as someone doubling can put wrath to good use (as even considering, she's still pretty durable (though by no means perfect) and has help with her thunder affinity).

Part 4 endgame, you basically have shown how deadly Rend is, the question is how we got her 13 levels in that time ;;>>

....I really want Lyre to not be bottom T.T I really do....As much a useless battle I know that will be.

If it's any consolation, Lyre isn't actually the bottom of everything. Sure, she's bottom tier, but that's different from actually being called the worst unit in the game. Sadly, there is no way she's making it to level 30 without being a hindrance for a long long time. Sure, she might pull lvl 30 by 4-E-3, or she might not, but just because she might pull a pretty good kill rate on dragons doesn't make her good overall.

[grandjackal]

I know I'm unreasonable about it, but I just find it hard to believe they bothered making units this insanely bad.

I really do hate how pointless they made the growth characters in this game. Damn unreasonably insanely powerful unit drop-ins, damn royals...

[Narga_Rocks]

I know I'm unreasonable about it, but I just find it hard to believe they bothered making units this insanely bad.

I really do hate how pointless they made the growth characters in this game. Damn unreasonably insanely powerful unit drop-ins, damn royals...

I.S. has never really been big on the balancing thing. I've only played fe4, 9, and 10, a few beginning chapters of 5 and 6, but they really don't seem to value balancing. I think Holsety and Narga and Balmunk and even Resire prove that pretty well for that fe4. Or shooting star plus critical for completely overkill offence, then throw in a 100 kill sword and stand Lakche next to her brother while she has 30 skill. I think they did better in 9 than 10, though. Even Rolf can be made useful in that game. I did it all the time. Though for anyone willing to bexp abuse it pretty much unbalanced the game in favour of the tier 1 units that are recruited by chapter 11.

[grandjackal]

They at least made an honest attempt with FE6 and DS.

Anyways, concerning Lethe...Can't see her below Renning in the least, though I still say she should be around Mak's current level...

Couple other things come to mind...

1. Think Volug has a case against Haar, or even Ike? Especially with Rescue-Natural Fast support with Zihark and being much higher performance compared to the DB than Haar is to the HM (as much as being hte only flier for a long while, missions great for his flight, and his part 2 god mode is...). Ike pretty much needs to be used, but he DOES have speed issues at times.

2. Could see those above Ena aside from Vika going up to lower mid.

3. Speaking of Kyza, for some reason I have this odd feeling...I dunno what's up with me and Kyza and Lyre, but it keeps messing with my head. Perhaps I just am too biased for these two...

Edited August 5, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Progenitus]

I only feel like responding to a few things, since narga makes stupidly long walls of texts that are usually irrelevant to the debate anyway.

It's not as if I'd disagree with the idea of comparing Mak in 2-3 and 2-E and 3-9 vs. Lethe in 2-2 and 2-E. If you think you can prove Mak > Lethe there by 11 spots and an entire tier difference then go ahead. I'd like to see you 7 turn 2-2 without Lethe. You can easily beat 2-3 without Mak. 2-E can be walled up without Lethe, sure, but all Mak does in 3-9 is a couple of weakenings or finishing offs, which is less than Lethe is doing in 2-2. Considering they are basically in different chapters (Mak in 2-E is starless) it would be a very subjective comparison, and while Mak might pull ahead slightly I don't see 11 spots.

Mak doesn't need to be the best unit in 2-3 or 3-9. He can even be the fucking worst unit. It doesn't matter. All he needs to do is be better than an empty slot; in other words, fielding Mak > not fielding Mak. (Usually being the worst unit on the team would be enough proof that you're a negative, but that's on large teams with lots of PCs available. Here we have only 5 guys and lolastrid, and later Calill in 3-9, so you can still be useful even if you're the worst unit by virtue of being low on manpower, even though I wouldn't give that much credit, but it's still better than getting absolutely no credit).

"but we have NPCs"

Except they're retarded and they can't hold a chokepoint, since if you put them on target/halt they ALL go to the point, and if they're at a chokepoint they're leaving Kieran/Geoffrey exposed.

"but danved/marcia are better"

Even though that's irrelevant for this situation, they're only winning offense, except it's only meaningful against the enemies we don't want to kill. We want to kill the tougher enemies like the horseslayer paladin, or the halb with the speedwing, except these enemies have 18+ spd so they're not doubling it anyway.

Oh wow, so without even trying I managed to convince you that people don't have to be deployed after they are no longer helpful so now you'll stop the whole forcing units to eat a slot in endgame when they have no reason to go?

It's called "I'm using your logic to refute you".

Remember this piece from you?

I still don't see why you think they have to stick around forever.

I pointed out to you how ridiculous taht statement is, and then you have the nerve to try and turn it around on me and accuse me of not being consistent.

I don't see how I dug my own grave when you don't even agree with the idea. Be consistent. If you don't believe in the not deploying anymore thing, then refute the rest of the post where I basically showed that aside from 4-E and maybe 4-3/4/5 Lethe is beating Makalov in everything but having a gauge. And in some areas by a lot. She wins, or at least loses less badly to the team, in more chapters compared to Makalov than he "wins" compared to her. Even if you stupidly force her into 4-E she still either wins or comes close overall. It all depends on how much a negative the gauge is. If she can't even beat a unit she stomps offensively and beats or ties defensively, solely because of gauge, then I don't see how Ranulf is so high. For example, Oscar should be above Ranulf, then.

Lethe is only really winning until Mak hits 3rd tier, and from there it just gets worse for Lethe.

As for why I skipped the other post, it had a lot of retarded crap. The fact that it had that one statement I bothered to respond to was just proof that I should really stop wasting my time on you. For example...

She takes a whopping 12% of our bexp resources and never needs another drop in part 3. She's getting 26 speed for 3-8, considering it's her 2nd highest growth by .15 over 4th.

Which is BEXP that could've gone to another unit.

"but lethe uses it best"

It doesn't matter, Mak isn't using that BEXP, while Lethe is.

Plus, if Lethe doesn't proc spd from taht BEXP level up, you just wasted a fuckload of BEXP for nothing, or you need to reset, which is just as bad.

More like double 10s, considering she has a Mordy support. Then there's the whole 5th chapter thing. How many battles are you not letting her have in 4 chapters? She doubles everything but swordmasters in those chapters, so she needs like 8 per chapter and then 3 in 3-8 and she'll grab S strike. Now she has 32 mt with C Mordy and is outdamaging most of your non-doublers, unless you think they have 47 mt at this point. (she does 28 vs. 18 def enemies, so they need 47 mt. Against 21 def halbs they need 43 so that's doable for some, but not all of your non-doublers. Generals are obviously bad).

rofl @ 8 attacks per chapter. Especially 2-2. For Lethe to do 8 attacks, she burns through at least 32 gauge, and then since this is over the course of several turns she also loses gauge for turns. So let's say 4 turns. -20 gauge. And then she might lose gauge because 2-range enemies attacked her. Say 2 enemies did that. So that's like 60 gauge lost. That's like 4 grasses. That leaves a whooping 2 grasses for Mordy and Nealuchi who are both superior to her, not to mention 4 player phases gone using those grasses. And then ignoring that Lethe does take damage, and by the time she approaches 8 attacks she'll probably need to use a vulnerary on herself, so that's another player phase gone. 5 player phases out of 7 spent on upkeep. lol @ this ever happening. It's more like Lethe does 4 attacks total, so 8 WEXP.

2-E is even worse, since the left stairs can be handled by 1 tank (and any 2-rangers like Calill firing from a ledge) and this tank can be someone like Brom who's going to be blocking the chokepoint way better than Lethe because he's not spamming precious grasses every turn, and she's obviously terrible on the right side to the point where she shouldn't even do anything.

So she might enter 3-4 with like 10 WEXP or something pointless, which means she won't be getting S-strike much earlier than Ranulf, who generally gets his S-strike around 3-E (~7 attacks in chapters that are bigger, longer, and more enemies than 2-2).

He must take a crown, which is better used by others, even if it goes to a level 20 character because they'll all give more to the team with it.

Mak can't take a crown.

but Lethe can get BEXP.

no double standards there, right

Mak still needs paragon for 3-11 and 3-E, w/e. Just put it on his tab. Give Lethe something you think would be equivalent. I'll give her an energy drop. So now let me do a comparison with 20/17/1 Mak and 25 Lethe with an energy drop.

20/17/1 Mak

46.5 HP, 24 str, lolmag, 23 skl, 27 spd, 24.5 lck, 24 def, 15.5 res

25 Lethe

54.4 HP, 24.8 str, lolmag, 28.4 skl, 28 spd, 19.8 lck, 20.8 def, 21.6 res

A Mordy is +2 att, +2 def, lolhit

Oh snap, their stats are actually pretty similar (silver blade has +3 mt over S-strike cat claw).

Except the fact taht Lethe has a horrible transformation guage, while Mak not only doesn't have that, but also has canto, and can also use stronger weapons. And then he also levels up way faster, since Lethe is gaining CEXP like a 20/20/10 beorc.

"but paragon for those chapters is more favoritism than energy drop!"

Putting paragon on another unit like Boyd would only get him maybe 2 extra levels for those two chapters. For Boyd, that would be 1.3 str, 0.9 skl, 0.9 spd, 0.8 lck, 1 def, 0.2 res (his HP is probably capped). The str is pointless on him, skl/lck/res are generally worthless, and HP is generally minimal too, so his only significant gains are ~1 spd and 1 def. And that's on a unit with a good growth spread. Throw it on someone like Neph, who'd only really gain 0.7 str and def since spd is already capped, and she'd rather be BEXP'd than gain levels through CEXP anyway by 3-11. I suppose if the extra levels from paragon would push them into third tier it'd be a different story, but then that's one less unit fighting for a crown anyway, so w/e.

An energy drop is just as useful, if not moreso, on certain beorcs, and it's ridiculously useful on laguz like Janaff who now one rounds the entire map with the energy drop.

"but lethe is better without that favoritism!"

Maybe it's just me, but I don't care if one terrible unit is better than another terrible unit. If I decide to use a unit for fighting, and I'm going to add the unit to my team, I want to put it at a level where it's actually capable of holding its own, not "well damn this guy sucks. But at least he's still better than this other even suckier guy!"

And if there's no favoritism involved, then Lethe is not going to get the BEXP in 3-8 or whenever the fuck she's getting it. So where would you draw the line?

And then your other post ignored big factors. Your little analysis of 4-E-3, for example, completely ignored the fact that Mak can use a wyrmslayer, or he can counter dragons using alondite/tempest blade/whatever, and then he can also canto which is useful for not getting in the way or abusing cover tiles/dragons more easily.

For stuff like 4-E-4, since he has canto, I don't see him being locked to nasir being a bad thing, since on player phase he can just use Nasir's white pool and then canto off for someone else to use it anyway, and enemy phase won't matter because Lethe isn't countering anything.

[-Cynthia-]

On a side note, I have no idea why Mak wouldn't be using a Wyrmslayer on dragons unless we are using an unusually large amount of sword users or were silly and broke them all.

As for the Lyre thing, I guess I could see her higher than Meg/Astrid, but not beyond that. Although, Astrid has some very minor 3-9 utility (saves player phases if she puts out fires, minor chip damage since there's a lot of borderline 2RKOing).

Edited August 5, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[grandjackal]

Mak doesn't need to be the best unit in 2-3 or 3-9. He can even be the fucking worst unit. It doesn't matter. All he needs to do is be better than an empty slot; in other words, fielding Mak > not fielding Mak. (Usually being the worst unit on the team would be enough proof that you're a negative, but that's on large teams with lots of PCs available. Here we have only 5 guys and lolastrid, and later Calill in 3-9, so you can still be useful even if you're the worst unit by virtue of being low on manpower, even though I wouldn't give that much credit, but it's still better than getting absolutely no credit).

Then what's Astrid doing in bottom?

Besides, by that standard, Lethe would still beat Mak, because she is superior to most of her team compared to Mak and his, due to her offensive and defensive well-rounded abilities.

"but we have NPCs"

Except they're retarded and they can't hold a chokepoint, since if you put them on target/halt they ALL go to the point, and if they're at a chokepoint they're leaving Kieran/Geoffrey exposed.

Considering how many damn cavs and units there are on this map, cavs having canto for rush and retreat tactics, it's hard for generally anyone not Geoff and Keiran to hold a chokepoint. I'd rather have meatwalls, and who better than throwaways?

Noticed you said that we don't have to care about Mak surviving. If that's the case, he can't outperform Lethe in later parts, not that he was anyways. It's great to say you're throwaway if the person you're comparing to is actually worse than when he were to return.

"but danved/marcia are better"

Even though that's irrelevant for this situation, they're only winning offense, except it's only meaningful against the enemies we don't want to kill. We want to kill the tougher enemies like the horseslayer paladin, or the halb with the speedwing, except these enemies have 18+ spd so they're not doubling it anyway.

Mak's on a horse (so he's losing to Danved basically by 2 defense, but losing 2 HP so Mak's not exactly winning defense either) so he's not helping kill that HORSESLAYER paladin by any means, and the speedwing halberdier happens to be on a ledge. Face it, Mak's not doing well here compared to the team.

It's called "I'm using your logic to refute you".

Remember this piece from you?

I still don't see why you think they have to stick around forever.

I pointed out to you how ridiculous taht statement is, and then you have the nerve to try and turn it around on me and accuse me of not being consistent.

Lethe's part 2 is far superior to Mak's. If we're using logic to refute eachother...

Lethe is only really winning until Mak hits 3rd tier, and from there it just gets worse for Lethe.

Gee, you mean a majority of their shared existence?

As for why I skipped the other post, it had a lot of retarded crap. The fact that it had that one statement I bothered to respond to was just proof that I should really stop wasting my time on you. For example...

She takes a whopping 12% of our bexp resources and never needs another drop in part 3. She's getting 26 speed for 3-8, considering it's her 2nd highest growth by .15 over 4th.

Which is BEXP that could've gone to another unit.

"but lethe uses it best"

It doesn't matter, Mak isn't using that BEXP, while Lethe is.

Will point out the problem with this later.

It could have gone to another unit, but that other unit would have taken it from another unit, etc etc. BEXP is an equal opportunity resource. Unless you're scarfing down an unreasonable amount (of which she won't be if you aren't stupid in dumping it all in her all at once), there's no reason she shouldn't get it.

Plus, if Lethe doesn't proc spd from taht BEXP level up, you just wasted a fuckload of BEXP for nothing, or you need to reset, which is just as bad.

I could say the same about Mak's far mroe random CEXP level ups, the large amount he'd need just to catch up. BEXP is far more assured.

rofl @ 8 attacks per chapter. Especially 2-2. For Lethe to do 8 attacks, she burns through at least 32 gauge, and then since this is over the course of several turns she also loses gauge for turns. So let's say 4 turns. -20 gauge. And then she might lose gauge because 2-range enemies attacked her. Say 2 enemies did that. So that's like 60 gauge lost. That's like 4 grasses. That leaves a whooping 2 grasses for Mordy and Nealuchi who are both superior to her, not to mention 4 player phases gone using those grasses. And then ignoring that Lethe does take damage, and by the time she approaches 8 attacks she'll probably need to use a vulnerary on herself, so that's another player phase gone. 5 player phases out of 7 spent on upkeep. lol @ this ever happening. It's more like Lethe does 4 attacks total, so 8 WEXP.

I'm smash fanatic, and I won't acknowledge the revert function saving time and energy, AND grasses. Nor will I acknowledge that nothing ORKOs her untransformed, which gets her a bit more strike AND a nice exp boost.

2-E is even worse, since the left stairs can be handled by 1 tank (and any 2-rangers like Calill firing from a ledge) and this tank can be someone like Brom who's going to be blocking the chokepoint way better than Lethe because he's not spamming precious grasses every turn, and she's obviously terrible on the right side to the point where she shouldn't even do anything.

So she might enter 3-4 with like 10 WEXP or something pointless, which means she won't be getting S-strike much earlier than Ranulf, who generally gets his S-strike around 3-E (~7 attacks in chapters that are bigger, longer, and more enemies than 2-2).

You gave her....5 battles...in the course of 2-3 and 2-E?...How does anyone take you serious?

As for blocking the left side, it doesn't even take a tank, it takes someone who doesn't die in 1 round, of which Lethe can easily do. Can't waste grasses if you're only using vulneries or concoctions. Hell, some enemies o the left side don' even break 15 AS, so they can't double her. With that in mind, she has a 19 HP lead to Neph's 6 defense lead, so in reality an untransformed Lethe could make a better "tank" than Neph could.

Mak can't take a crown.

but Lethe can get BEXP.

no double standards there, right

BEXP can be used by anyone, but crowns you have to wait in line for, jack. Everyone has to compete with everyone for BEXP. On the other hand, there are a few people he has to consider who could put the crown to sooner, and probably better use.

Gatrie

Soren

Haar

Titania

Oscar

Keiran

Geoff to assrape 3-9

Sigrun

Tanith

Mak still needs paragon for 3-11 and 3-E, w/e. Just put it on his tab. Give Lethe something you think would be equivalent. I'll give her an energy drop. So now let me do a comparison with 20/17/1 Mak and 25 Lethe with an energy drop.

20/17/1 Mak

46.5 HP, 24 str, lolmag, 23 skl, 27 spd, 24.5 lck, 24 def, 15.5 res

25 Lethe

54.4 HP, 24.8 str, lolmag, 28.4 skl, 28 spd, 19.8 lck, 20.8 def, 21.6 res

A Mordy is +2 att, +2 def, lolhit

Oh snap, their stats are actually pretty similar (silver blade has +3 mt over S-strike cat claw).

Except the fact taht Lethe has a horrible transformation guage, while Mak not only doesn't have that, but also has canto, and can also use stronger weapons. And then he also levels up way faster, since Lethe is gaining CEXP like a 20/20/10 beorc.

"but paragon for those chapters is more favoritism than energy drop!"

Putting paragon on another unit like Boyd would only get him maybe 2 extra levels for those two chapters. For Boyd, that would be 1.3 str, 0.9 skl, 0.9 spd, 0.8 lck, 1 def, 0.2 res (his HP is probably capped). The str is pointless on him, skl/lck/res are generally worthless, and HP is generally minimal too, so his only significant gains are ~1 spd and 1 def. And that's on a unit with a good growth spread. Throw it on someone like Neph, who'd only really gain 0.7 str and def since spd is already capped, and she'd rather be BEXP'd than gain levels through CEXP anyway by 3-11. I suppose if the extra levels from paragon would push them into third tier it'd be a different story, but then that's one less unit fighting for a crown anyway, so w/e.

Nice clarifying exactly when this is happening. If you think Mak's gaining 10 levels in essentially the 5 chapters where participation would actually be called for, you're mad. The point of the fact is, Makalov is not promoting until part 4.

So basically, your argument is you gave Makalov not only Paragon AND a crown, the only thing you gave Lethe in return is an energy drop, ignoring the fact that Mak NEEDS that crown to STILL lose to her in speed, which could break him in part 4 where 28 AS is just what we need to get by.

An energy drop is just as useful, if not moreso, on certain beorcs, and it's ridiculously useful on laguz like Janaff who now one rounds the entire map with the energy drop.

Damn well explain yourself how the 4 Str she gets from the drops is worse than the 2 that Beorc get from it, especially since the only one doubling as soon as Lethe is (AKA, isntantly) is Mia (who's offense problems is worse than just 2 STR's worth), and Shinon (and what' he's not strong enough for you?). You also get 2 by the time Janaff shows up, so he can get his own. In the mean time, Lethe's putting it to the best use at the soonest.

"but lethe is better without that favoritism!"

Maybe it's just me, but I don't care if one terrible unit is better than another terrible unit. If I decide to use a unit for fighting, and I'm going to add the unit to my team, I want to put it at a level where it's actually capable of holding its own, not "well damn this guy sucks. But at least he's still better than this other even suckier guy!"

And if there's no favoritism involved, then Lethe is not going to get the BEXP in 3-8 or whenever the fuck she's getting it. So where would you draw the line?

How about Lethe with less favoritism>Mak having more? Mak apparently needs Paragon AND a crown and be severely overleveled to basically tie Lethe. How do you sleep at night?

And then your other post ignored big factors. Your little analysis of 4-E-3, for example, completely ignored the fact that Mak can use a wyrmslayer, or he can counter dragons using alondite/tempest blade/whatever, and then he can also canto which is useful for not getting in the way or abusing cover tiles/dragons more easily.

Unless you can show how he's consistantly ORKOing these suckers, I'd think Lethe having a far greater chance of popping off a Rend as far greater than Mak pulling off a Sol or a Crit, of which even still he might not kill like a Red Dragon on a cover tile.

For stuff like 4-E-4, since he has canto, I don't see him being locked to nasir being a bad thing, since on player phase he can just use Nasir's white pool and then canto off for someone else to use it anyway, and enemy phase won't matter because Lethe isn't countering anything.

Right, he's just having an incredibly easier time dying. He needs to be level 20/16 to match Lethe's base resistance. Basically, you need to give him Alondite or a Tempest Blade (which does not combine well with his meh strength) specifically. Without these, he's more a sitting duck than Lethe is.

On a side note, I have no idea why Mak wouldn't be using a Wyrmslayer on dragons unless we are using an unusually large amount of sword users or were silly and broke them all.

Perhaps he forgot, but I wouldn't see it matter unless he can actually ORKO with them, which I don't see him doing.

As for the Lyre thing, I guess I could see her higher than Meg/Astrid, but not beyond that. Although, Astrid has some very minor 3-9 utility (saves player phases if she puts out fires, minor chip damage since there's a lot of borderline 2RKOing).

Perhaps Astrid could be bottom of Low? I mean, couldn't convince anyone Lyre's better than her, and there was plenty of reason due to being forced anyways. None of the other bottom tier units are forced.

Speaking of S strike though...Nealuchi. He's got 3 chapters to Lethe's 2. He doesn't return till part 4, but he has an easy to manage meter. With the action he could see, would Neal having S strike by part 4 seem unreasonable? On top of that, he's Naesala's fastest support. Naesala won't have anything else built up until endgame anyways, so a periodic C for now wouldn't hurt either of them. On top of that, he has a natural Wrath. I'm sure he won't be going to endgame without good reason (he'll need 5 levels to double auras without Nasir, can do so with Nasir naturally) but if he is, he'll be benefitting Naesala even further with more attack and more hit.

Lessay he's level 28 (I dunno, we gave him Paragon or something). He won't need Nasir, and I'm sure by now he's got SS strike. A with Naesala.

He's 1RKOing spirits like anyone with the speed should be.

Neal's got 45 ATK. With Blood Tide, he's basically got 50.

8x Order Incarnate

90 hp, -- atk, 35 AS, -- hit, 135 avo, 30 def, 30 res, -- crit, -- cev

Solid 40 damage.

Let's see how a level 30 Naesala with an A with Nealuchi functions.

52+3=55. Plust Blood Tide's 5, it's 60. Nice plus 6 Damage, leaving the Aura at 30 HP rather than 36. This would allow someone like Boyd at 20/11 be able to finish it off with Urvan without Nasir or Blood Tide, which means you can have your dragons more free to help elsewhere. Basically, he'd doing better than Boyd here.

This is ignoring hte fact we could give Neal an energy drop, effectively giving him 4 more STR.He'd have 54 Mt with Naesala A, SS strike, level 28 and Blood Tide. He can nearly 2RKO Auras, granted they aren't on a cover tile. If Neal somehow got to level 32, he can cleanly 2RKO non cover tile auras without Nasir.

To give a reference, CAINEGHIS needs Nasir to be able to do that.

Basically, all I'm asking is how meh is the inbetween with Nealuchi's part 4?

Speaking of Brave Weapons, they should truly be considered on the auras more seriously. It is basically able to double without Nasir always. Someone like Haar at 20/11 and an ATK support could 2RKO auras with the brave axe. Hell, Boyd at 20/13 doesn't even need an ATK support.

Eddie at 20/20/11 could 2RKO an aura with the brave sword, whereas Zihark would need something more potent.

Rolf at 20/11 could do the same with a brave bow

To 2 round an aura, you need to do at least 45 damage in one round of combat. With a brave weapon, you do not need Nasir (though if you're strong AND fast enough to double with Nasir, god bless). What you need to do that with the following braves...Bare minimums

Brave Sword/Bow-52 Mt with a +2 ATK. Required STR=36. If you double, thus quadding, you need to be doing 12 damage a shot. Needed STR-27. Basically you'll need blood tide, but they're more available than Nasir, and Bows are more flexible in positioning due to range. Probably best bet of damage without needing Nasir.

Eddie once he hits 39 AS can easily pull this off.

Rolf loves the bow

Lucia with BEXP strategy could pull it off as well.

Brave Lance-10 mt reduces it to 42, blood tide reduces it to 37. A +1 ATK support will be needed. Neded STR=36 without support. Aran can pull this off. Danved however has a greater chance of offensive boosts and is better before the auras, though still might not be hitting as hard, but Danved's still pretty respectable with the brave lance.

Basically, only Danved and Aran could benefit from this. Sigrun and Tanith are a tad SOL, and Tanith might as well eat a speedwing to try to get to 34 AS. Danved might want an energy drop, or BEXPd from level 17 could get the same thing.

Brave Axe- 11 MT reduces it to 41, Blood Tide to 36. Following Axers that can easily reach 36 AS

-Haar (as if he weren't broken enough, though I suppose he fears spirits like a madman now he's stuck with 1 range).

-Keiran (he needs Paragon to get to 20/15, but he needed it anyways, though he could always opt for a +2 ATK support for a far more reasonable level 20/10)

-Boyd (hits it by 20/8, and do remember he has a Fire affinity, possibly the best affinity to ask for at this point).

-If you can get Gatrie to 20-13 and his axe rank to brave level, he can do it too. Lulz, Gatrie=best legitimate general in the series? He could do it at 20/10 with a +2 ATK support.

-Titania will need a full ATK support for the +2

-Brom at 20/13 with a full ATK support could pull it off too, level 20/16 without an ATK boosting support. With all the time he has though, 20/13 doesn't seem unreasonable.

Brave weapons have restored a bit of faith into this game ;;>> Though this just means it sucks harder to be tigers and mages endgame.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Progenitus]

Then what's Astrid doing in bottom?

What does that have to do with anything?

Besides, by that standard, Lethe would still beat Mak, because she is superior to most of her team compared to Mak and his, due to her offensive and defensive well-rounded abilities.

No, because Lethe is not better than an empty unit slot.

Considering how many damn cavs and units there are on this map, cavs having canto for rush and retreat tactics, it's hard for generally anyone not Geoff and Keiran to hold a chokepoint. I'd rather have meatwalls, and who better than throwaways?

Have you even played 2-3? There are so many enemies that even WITH the NPCs surrounding Kieran/Geof, almost every single NPC dies before I finish the chapter. And that's WITH someone blocking a chokepoint so I don't have like 20 extra enemies running after Kieran/Geof.

It could have gone to another unit, but that other unit would have taken it from another unit, etc etc. BEXP is an equal opportunity resource. Unless you're scarfing down an unreasonable amount (of which she won't be if you aren't stupid in dumping it all in her all at once), there's no reason she shouldn't get it.

Mak can't possibly take BEXP away from you in mid part 3 because he doesn't even exist. Taking BEXP away is a negative that Mak doesn't have, but Lethe will, which is why it's a negative for her.

In other words, Lethe's teammates are going to have X BEXP after Lethe eats up some BEXP, and Mak's teammates are going to have X + Y BEXP, where Y is the amount of BEXP Lethe used up.

If your logic actually held, it would give us ridiculous conclusions like Lyre > Sanaki because Lyre could be fed kills/BEXP/whatever in part 3, and then we'd say "WELL IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT RESOURCES LYRE CONSUMED OVER SANAKI, BECAUSE THOSE RESOURCES COULD HAVE GONE TO ANOTHER UNIT, BUT THAT OTHER UNIT WOULD HAVE TAKEN IT FROM ANOTHER UNIT, ETC. ETC." to try and justify it, except of course that's a load of crap.

I could say the same about Mak's far mroe random CEXP level ups, the large amount he'd need just to catch up. BEXP is far more assured.

He could have just as easily gotten RNG blessed.

On the other hand, it's pretty hard for Lethe to get RNG blessed from that BEXP level up, since you're already assuming best case scenario for her (she got a speed proc. Technically, she could also have gotten a str and/or def proc as well, but then you'd really be grasping at straws because of how rare that is).

I'm smash fanatic, and I won't acknowledge the revert function saving time and energy, AND grasses.

I'm pretty boi wolf, and I'm forgetting that narga was giving Lethe EIGHT rounds of attacks in 2-2 which means she can't be untransformed for almost any turn in the chapter because she has to be transformed almost every single turn, and there's only one grass in all of 2-2 that has to be shared between THREE laguz and both Nealuchi AND Mordy lolwtfroflstomp Lethe's dumb ass so I'd rather grass them than lolethe.

Nor will I acknowledge that nothing ORKOs her untransformed, which gets her a bit more strike AND a nice exp boost.

Except that not only having her counter untransformed on enemy phase is a counter wasted where someone else who wasn't wasting our time could counter back for real damage so Lethe would be slowing us down even more, Lethe can only take one attack without dying since like every single enemy doubles her and she gets 3-4HKO'd untransformed. This really sucks for her because this is FoW, which means if there are any 2-range enemies lurking outside of the sight range, it royally screws up any plan to have Lethe counter something untransformed.

As for blocking the left side, it doesn't even take a tank, it takes someone who doesn't die in 1 round, of which Lethe can easily do. Can't waste grasses if you're only using vulneries or concoctions. Hell, some enemies o the left side don' even break 15 AS, so they can't double her. With that in mind, she has a 19 HP lead to Neph's 6 defense lead, so in reality an untransformed Lethe could make a better "tank" than Neph could.

There are enemies with 2-range, which means up to two enemies can attack her. Which is pretty bad since it only takes ~22 att to 4HKO her. And only SOME of the thunder sages don't have 16+ AS. Which is still just as bad because they do about 14 damage to her, which means she has 37 HP/9 def, which means it only takes ~28 att to 2HKO her, which a lot of the enemies STILL have. AND, that's if a thunder sage was filling in the 2-range. If it was something like a bowgun warrior, she's sore out of luck.

Also, vulneraries will not be enough to keep her afloat if she's untransformed. She HAS to take concoctions, which sucks because they're 1200 per concoction for 6 uses (so you'll have to buy like 2), which is less money I have to burn on stuff like killer weapons to transfer over to the GMs.

It's also harder to feed kills to whoever's attacking from the ledge (like Neph or Marcia) if my tank is doing 1 damage instead of 15, and she also can't attack the general with nullify who's sitting below the stairs too.

BEXP can be used by anyone, but crowns you have to wait in line for, jack. Everyone has to compete with everyone for BEXP.

If there are more people who can use BEXP than there are who can use crowns, taking BEXP away would be the greater negative.

Gatrie

Soren

Haar

Titania

Oscar

Keiran

Geoff to assrape 3-9

Sigrun

Tanith

rofl @ Geof assraping 3-9. He's STILL not fast enough to double anything. 22 spd doubles lolsoldiers (not the halbs, soldiers), and all 2 generals in the map.

Titania and Haar are probably already promoted by the time 3-11 rolls around and we get extra crowns. Maybe even Oscar too.

double rofl @ sigrun taking it too. She would beat him in 3-11 and 3-E and then get roflstomped the rest of the game. Tanith is really not much better either.

So this leaves a guy who may not even be in play, and a guy who has to take the 3-3 crown becasue taking a 3-11 crown would be too late. Even if you throw in a couple of other people who could use a crown, the competition for one by part 4 is not particularly tight, at least not as tight as something like Lethe's BEXP, which EVERYONE can use, even if it won't have as much of an effect as a crown does on specific units (i.e. BEXP benefits anyone, crown benefits only certain units but slightly more on those units).

Nice clarifying exactly when this is happening. If you think Mak's gaining 10 levels in essentially the 5 chapters where participation would actually be called for, you're mad. The point of the fact is, Makalov is not promoting until part 4.

I wonder if anyone ever reads my posts.

Mak still needs paragon for 3-11 and 3-E, w/e. Just put it on his tab. Give Lethe something you think would be equivalent. I'll give her an energy drop. So now let me do a comparison with 20/17/1 Mak and 25 Lethe with an energy drop.

If you could not deduce that I was talking about part 4, I don't have anything else to say to you.

So basically, your argument is you gave Makalov not only Paragon AND a crown, the only thing you gave Lethe in return is an energy drop, ignoring the fact that Mak NEEDS that crown to STILL lose to her in speed, which could break him in part 4 where 28 AS is just what we need to get by.

No, Lethe also got the BEXP from whatever the fuck chapter from mid part 3.

He's only losing spd by 1 point, and he's got a massive 75% growth, so w/e at him "losing speed".

Damn well explain yourself how the 4 Str she gets from the drops is worse than the 2 that Beorc get from it, especially since the only one doubling as soon as Lethe is (AKA, isntantly) is Mia (who's offense problems is worse than just 2 STR's worth), and Shinon (and what' he's not strong enough for you?). You also get 2 by the time Janaff shows up, so he can get his own. In the mean time, Lethe's putting it to the best use at the soonest.

I said laguz LIKE Janaff. I didn't just say Janaff. There are also Ulki AND Ranulf.

How about Lethe with less favoritism>Mak having more? Mak apparently needs Paragon AND a crown and be severely overleveled to basically tie Lethe. How do you sleep at night?

rofl @ trying to pad that list. what do you mean "be severely overleveled"? Paragon is making him "severely overleveled". They're the same thing

Also, Lethe was given an energy drop and BEXP.

Unless you can show how he's consistantly ORKOing these suckers, I'd think Lethe having a far greater chance of popping off a Rend as far greater than Mak pulling off a Sol or a Crit, of which even still he might not kill like a Red Dragon on a cover tile.

He 2HKOs white dragons and leaves red dragons with like 20 HP.

And then you ignored all of Mak's other advantages.

Right, he's just having an incredibly easier time dying. He needs to be level 20/16 to match Lethe's base resistance. Basically, you need to give him Alondite or a Tempest Blade (which does not combine well with his meh strength) specifically. Without these, he's more a sitting duck than Lethe is.

Except Lethe also needs a laguz gem so she doesn't suddenly untransform on us as well. SO they cancel out.

rofl @ mak dying in this chapter. he has canto, pal. he cantos onto a wardwood, and they make up like 25% of the map.

[Narga_Rocks]

On a side note, I have no idea why Mak wouldn't be using a Wyrmslayer on dragons unless we are using an unusually large amount of sword users or were silly and broke them all.

Oops. Well, he needs activations on whites that are on cover but the ones that aren't on cover should be one rounded, though he then can't really argue for having an enemy phase without trading. As for reds, he now only needs one activation, but his crit rate drops to almost nothing so he's looking at around 20% to 25% kill rate, which is still inferior to Lethe's. Still, his % rate for killing whites vs. Lethe's is less than 2x, whereas her % rate for killing reds is higher than his by more than 2x. It will mess up the expected value of damage for her, though, and cause more losing there.

I only feel like responding to a few things, since narga makes stupidly long walls of texts that are usually irrelevant to the debate anyway.

Well, you think they are irrelevant, anyway.

Anyway, for your first post I only need to add a little to pretty boi wolf's stuff.

Except they're retarded and they can't hold a chokepoint, since if you put them on target/halt they ALL go to the point, and if they're at a chokepoint they're leaving Kieran/Geoffrey exposed.

The fact that you suck doesn't mean that we do.

"but danved/marcia are better"

Even though that's irrelevant for this situation, they're only winning offense, except it's only meaningful against the enemies we don't want to kill. We want to kill the tougher enemies like the horseslayer paladin, or the halb with the speedwing, except these enemies have 18+ spd so they're not doubling it anyway.

Right, anything that's damaging to your case is irrelevant. Gotcha. The horseslayer paladin is OHKOd by Marcia with a horseslayer and Danved's partying unequipped on a thicket and Geoffrey has a bravelance. Guess who gets it under smart strategies?

It's called "I'm using your logic to refute you".

Well, more like misapplying my logic and failing to refute me because you happen to not be smart enough.

Remember this piece from you?

I still don't see why you think they have to stick around forever.

I pointed out to you how ridiculous taht statement is, and then you have the nerve to try and turn it around on me and accuse me of not being consistent.

Actually, you didn't point out how ridiculous it was. And you aren't inconsistent for trying to take an assumption and follow it. You are inconsistent because you berate anyone else for arguing from a stand point in which they don't believe but you go and do it yourself. I notice you ignored when I mentioned you berate int for it. Considering you seem to think that saying I have the nerve to do something is important, then why is my comment about you berating int irrelevant?

Lethe is only really winning until Mak hits 3rd tier, and from there it just gets worse for Lethe.

Like pretty boi wolf said, she's winning for more than half their existence, and by a lot at times, if we ignore gauge anyway, you still haven't given a reason for the gap to be so large.

She takes a whopping 12% of our bexp resources and never needs another drop in part 3. She's getting 26 speed for 3-8, considering it's her 2nd highest growth by .15 over 4th.

Which is BEXP that could've gone to another unit.

"but lethe uses it best"

It doesn't matter, Mak isn't using that BEXP, while Lethe is.

Plus, if Lethe doesn't proc spd from taht BEXP level up, you just wasted a fuckload of BEXP for nothing, or you need to reset, which is just as bad.

Um, so everyone who took a minor amount of bexp is worse than Mak? Besides, you think resetting once is just as bad? Do you know how many times other people have to reset because of Zihark in 3-6? Just because you've gotten lucky so far doesn't mean on average there wouldn't be resets. The only reason I've never had to reset because of that moron is because I don't stick him in chokepoints in 3-6. And before you say that it's not relevant, it is, because a guy in high tier doesn't seem to be hurt for causing resets. Besides, speed is .15 higher than her 4th highest growth. If we don't call that speed point reliable, nothing is where bexp is concerned, so you've just attempted to throw out a fair amount of arguments tonnes of people have made over the last while.

rofl @ 8 attacks per chapter. Especially 2-2. For Lethe to do 8 attacks, she burns through at least 32 gauge, and then since this is over the course of several turns she also loses gauge for turns. So let's say 4 turns. -20 gauge. And then she might lose gauge because 2-range enemies attacked her. Say 2 enemies did that. So that's like 60 gauge lost. That's like 4 grasses. That leaves a whooping 2 grasses for Mordy and Nealuchi who are both superior to her, not to mention 4 player phases gone using those grasses. And then ignoring that Lethe does take damage, and by the time she approaches 8 attacks she'll probably need to use a vulnerary on herself, so that's another player phase gone. 5 player phases out of 7 spent on upkeep. lol @ this ever happening. It's more like Lethe does 4 attacks total, so 8 WEXP.

2-E is even worse, since the left stairs can be handled by 1 tank (and any 2-rangers like Calill firing from a ledge) and this tank can be someone like Brom who's going to be blocking the chokepoint way better than Lethe because he's not spamming precious grasses every turn, and she's obviously terrible on the right side to the point where she shouldn't even do anything.

So she might enter 3-4 with like 10 WEXP or something pointless, which means she won't be getting S-strike much earlier than Ranulf, who generally gets his S-strike around 3-E (~7 attacks in chapters that are bigger, longer, and more enemies than 2-2).

retard. It's called an average for a reason. And like Pretty boi wolf said, 5 battles in 2 chapters? How do you sleep at night. Anyway, she can get 6 in 2-2 and rather easily attain 10 in 2-E, if you don't suck. Keep in mind, we decided to try to use her. So since either Brom or Lethe can tank the left, why would you use Brom if you decided to use Lethe? You are the one who doesn't seem to take issue with giving crap like Mak a crown and 2 or more chapters of paragon just to attempt to make him better than Lethe. Why can't she be used a bit in 2-E? Or I could even wait until 3-4 and 3-7 to cover the rest of the average. You don't have to get 8 battles every single chapter for the average to be 8.

He must take a crown, which is better used by others, even if it goes to a level 20 character because they'll all give more to the team with it.

Mak can't take a crown.

but Lethe can get BEXP.

no double standards there, right

I said he could have bexp. You know, what would actually be fair? It helps him get a little closer to promotion, by the way. The fact she uses 2000 bexp better than he does isn't exactly her fault.

Mak still needs paragon for 3-11 and 3-E, w/e. Just put it on his tab. Give Lethe something you think would be equivalent. I'll give her an energy drop. So now let me do a comparison with 20/17/1 Mak and 25 Lethe with an energy drop.

Two chapters of paragon vs. and energy drop, but this paragon went towards a guy that lacks str and 34 spd. Wow, you certainly don't want to destroy endgame, do you?

20/17/1 Mak

46.5 HP, 24 str, lolmag, 23 skl, 27 spd, 24.5 lck, 24 def, 15.5 res

25 Lethe

54.4 HP, 24.8 str, lolmag, 28.4 skl, 28 spd, 19.8 lck, 20.8 def, 21.6 res

A Mordy is +2 att, +2 def, lolhit

Like pretty boi said, how long did this take? You never said what chapter. Anyway, she still doubles stuff he doesn't, and if this is 4-3/4/5 rather than 4-P/1/2, he isn't doubling much anyway, so all that paragon usage and he's still not doing very well, and she was beating him until he took a crown from someone else.

Oh snap, their stats are actually pretty similar (silver blade has +3 mt over S-strike cat claw).

Yeah, and she does lots more damage over anything with 24 spd. On average, guess who wins that?

Except the fact taht Lethe has a horrible transformation guage, while Mak not only doesn't have that, but also has canto, and can also use stronger weapons. And then he also levels up way faster, since Lethe is gaining CEXP like a 20/20/10 beorc.

Yeah, but considering she's only like one chapter from a gem, who cares? Oooh, so canto is so great for Mak but meant nothing for Astrid, okay. Gotcha. Stuff only helps characters you like and the same stuff is irrelevant for characters you don't. No problem.

"but paragon for those chapters is more favoritism than energy drop!"

Putting paragon on another unit like Boyd would only get him maybe 2 extra levels for those two chapters. For Boyd, that would be 1.3 str, 0.9 skl, 0.9 spd, 0.8 lck, 1 def, 0.2 res (his HP is probably capped). The str is pointless on him, skl/lck/res are generally worthless, and HP is generally minimal too, so his only significant gains are ~1 spd and 1 def. And that's on a unit with a good growth spread. Throw it on someone like Neph, who'd only really gain 0.7 str and def since spd is already capped, and she'd rather be BEXP'd than gain levels through CEXP anyway by 3-11. I suppose if the extra levels from paragon would push them into third tier it'd be a different story, but then that's one less unit fighting for a crown anyway, so w/e.

The funny thing here is you mentioned Boyd, the guy who needed that paragon just to get closer to 34 speed. And Neph, who while she gets 34 speed early enough she'd like the str boosting. Oh, but you also ignored Calill and Marcia, another set of characters who would really like the level boosting because they also can have the speed to do things in endgame. Mak is basically a waste for that paragon. You have more than enough bexp for Lethe to get her 12%

An energy drop is just as useful, if not moreso, on certain beorcs, and it's ridiculously useful on laguz like Janaff who now one rounds the entire map with the energy drop.

You know, up until the time Mak took that crown and paragon, she actually beats him without the drop. Letting her have the drop just makes her win by even more at those times, and Mak isn't even really winning statistically by much if at all afterwards. I don't see how this helps your case.

"but lethe is better without that favoritism!"

Maybe it's just me, but I don't care if one terrible unit is better than another terrible unit. If I decide to use a unit for fighting, and I'm going to add the unit to my team, I want to put it at a level where it's actually capable of holding its own, not "well damn this guy sucks. But at least he's still better than this other even suckier guy!"

And if there's no favoritism involved, then Lethe is not going to get the BEXP in 3-8 or whenever the fuck she's getting it. So where would you draw the line?

And this is why I don't get your sandbagging of Lethe's part 2. But if I call you inconsistent again you'll just say I have nerve again, so I won't.

As for the favouritism, you know, you could stop escalating stuff. All favouritism is not created equal. It's something int's been trying to teach you for months but you clearly still don't get it. And I already said I'm willing to give him some bexp to make up for it. Heck, give him 2 times as much if you want.

And then your other post ignored big factors. Your little analysis of 4-E-3, for example, completely ignored the fact that Mak can use a wyrmslayer, or he can counter dragons using alondite/tempest blade/whatever, and then he can also canto which is useful for not getting in the way or abusing cover tiles/dragons more easily.

Give me a break, I don't cover every little detail. I covered it at the top of my post, anyway. She still kills more frequently. And since he can't sol at range and isn't even hitting all that frequently with the tempest blade, he's not doing enough damage to matter on enemy phase. Rather use someone that actually helps more. And you seriously added "whatever" to that? Damage just goes down from there.

For stuff like 4-E-4, since he has canto, I don't see him being locked to nasir being a bad thing, since on player phase he can just use Nasir's white pool and then canto off for someone else to use it anyway, and enemy phase won't matter because Lethe isn't countering anything.

So, who do you have picking Nasir up and dragging him to all the spirits so that we can actually use him on all the spirits? Mak being able to run away doesn't exactly matter if the square on which he stood can no longer attack any spirits anyway. And as for his enemy phase, you know spirits have 20 move, right? If anyone is on the field that does 1 range only, Mak's enemy phase means nothing since it is never happening. If anyone is lower leveled/does less damage that type of stuff, Mak's enemy phase means nothing.

Then what's Astrid doing in bottom?

What does that have to do with anything?

Aside from damaging your case? Nothing, I suppose. Just means that we don't seem to be judging by the way that would actually overinflate Mak's 2-3 and 3-9. That's all. No, that doesn't have anything to do with anything.

Besides, by that standard, Lethe would still beat Mak, because she is superior to most of her team compared to Mak and his, due to her offensive and defensive well-rounded abilities.

No, because Lethe is not better than an empty unit slot.

So, Lethe's not better than an empty slot in 2-2 or 2-E? Okay, you're nuts.

Considering how many damn cavs and units there are on this map, cavs having canto for rush and retreat tactics, it's hard for generally anyone not Geoff and Keiran to hold a chokepoint. I'd rather have meatwalls, and who better than throwaways?

Have you even played 2-3?

Have you? Played it well, anyway.

There are so many enemies that even WITH the NPCs surrounding Kieran/Geof, almost every single NPC dies before I finish the chapter. And that's WITH someone blocking a chokepoint so I don't have like 20 extra enemies running after Kieran/Geof.

I've said it once already, the fact that you suck doesn't mean we have to. It's actually rather simple. I wish I had a 2-3 save in HM and could make a video to teach you how to not suck. You know, there's a reason that the simple strategy floating around for keeping over 40 enemies alive involves Mak and Danved unequipped on thickets at the bottom. They simply aren't needed to cover Kieran/Geof.

It could have gone to another unit, but that other unit would have taken it from another unit, etc etc. BEXP is an equal opportunity resource. Unless you're scarfing down an unreasonable amount (of which she won't be if you aren't stupid in dumping it all in her all at once), there's no reason she shouldn't get it.

Mak can't possibly take BEXP away from you in mid part 3 because he doesn't even exist. Taking BEXP away is a negative that Mak doesn't have, but Lethe will, which is why it's a negative for her.

Okay, so let's call it a negative. It's extremely minor, anyway. You'd basically have to not give anyone bexp. You know, shinon needs some along the way to force str up, otherwise you are wasting an energy drop on a guy who doesn't need it or he'll be missing some ORKOs in part 4 he could have had. Is it a negative to give some to him? Or Neph to boost str? Or really anyone who benefits. We aren't giving her more than what most people on the PoR board tend to consider a fair share.

In other words, Lethe's teammates are going to have X BEXP after Lethe eats up some BEXP, and Mak's teammates are going to have X + Y BEXP, where Y is the amount of BEXP Lethe used up.

If your logic actually held, it would give us ridiculous conclusions like Lyre > Sanaki because Lyre could be fed kills/BEXP/whatever in part 3, and then we'd say "WELL IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT RESOURCES LYRE CONSUMED OVER SANAKI, BECAUSE THOSE RESOURCES COULD HAVE GONE TO ANOTHER UNIT, BUT THAT OTHER UNIT WOULD HAVE TAKEN IT FROM ANOTHER UNIT, ETC. ETC." to try and justify it, except of course that's a load of crap.

Right, time for smash's patented retarded misapplication of other people's logic in ways that make absolutely no sense. Giving Lyre similar amounts of bexp would not help her case at all since it would only get her to 24 speed by 3-8 when it no longer helps. That wouldn't exactly make her suddenly better than Sanaki. But then this is par for the course for you. Do you actually expect your insane caps sentences to hold up to an analysis?

I could say the same about Mak's far mroe random CEXP level ups, the large amount he'd need just to catch up. BEXP is far more assured.

He could have just as easily gotten RNG blessed.

Um, Lethe could've gotten blessed, too, in her bexp level. Maybe she managed to pull str and spd and hp? It's unlikely, but actually possibly not as unlikely as not getting spd. Don't really know for sure since we don't have formulas for the real probabilities of bexp levels. Point is, whining about the small possibility Lethe didn't get spd on her bexp opens the door to issues for Mak.

On the other hand, it's pretty hard for Lethe to get RNG blessed from that BEXP level up, since you're already assuming best case scenario for her (she got a speed proc. Technically, she could also have gotten a str and/or def proc as well, but then you'd really be grasping at straws because of how rare that is).

Which still likely manages to be less rare than her not getting spd, so if you can bring your insanity up then we should have something equal to consider.

I'm smash fanatic, and I won't acknowledge the revert function saving time and energy, AND grasses.

I'm pretty boi wolf, and I'm forgetting that narga was giving Lethe EIGHT rounds of attacks in 2-2 which means she can't be untransformed for almost any turn in the chapter because she has to be transformed almost every single turn, and there's only one grass in all of 2-2 that has to be shared between THREE laguz and both Nealuchi AND Mordy lolwtfroflstomp Lethe's dumb ass so I'd rather grass them than lolethe.

I'm smash, and I don't understand the word average.

Nor will I acknowledge that nothing ORKOs her untransformed, which gets her a bit more strike AND a nice exp boost.

Except that not only having her counter untransformed on enemy phase is a counter wasted where someone else who wasn't wasting our time could counter back for real damage so Lethe would be slowing us down even more, Lethe can only take one attack without dying since like every single enemy doubles her and she gets 3-4HKO'd untransformed. This really sucks for her because this is FoW, which means if there are any 2-range enemies lurking outside of the sight range, it royally screws up any plan to have Lethe counter something untransformed.

You know, I don't actually advocate this plan, but she could easily stand in a spot where she gets only one facing at 2 range, building gauge. It isn't difficult. And you've only got a wind edge and a hand axe on a guy that doesn't double and a javelin on someone with somewhat low str anyway. I don't see us missing much for that one action, especially since we would have to not block with Mordy most of the time just to make sure the 2 range enemy would attack someone that can counter anyway.

As for blocking the left side, it doesn't even take a tank, it takes someone who doesn't die in 1 round, of which Lethe can easily do. Can't waste grasses if you're only using vulneries or concoctions. Hell, some enemies o the left side don' even break 15 AS, so they can't double her. With that in mind, she has a 19 HP lead to Neph's 6 defense lead, so in reality an untransformed Lethe could make a better "tank" than Neph could.

There are enemies with 2-range, which means up to two enemies can attack her. Which is pretty bad since it only takes ~22 att to 4HKO her. And only SOME of the thunder sages don't have 16+ AS. Which is still just as bad because they do about 14 damage to her, which means she has 37 HP/9 def, which means it only takes ~28 att to 2HKO her, which a lot of the enemies STILL have. AND, that's if a thunder sage was filling in the 2-range. If it was something like a bowgun warrior, she's sore out of luck.

Why is she untransformed? 22 atk does 4 damage. It takes 13 of these to kill her. I know pretty boy was mentioning as if she was, but she doesn't need to be. There is the grass from 2-2 and one that can be picked up on turn 2 rather easily. We don't need that much grass.

Also, vulneraries will not be enough to keep her afloat if she's untransformed. She HAS to take concoctions, which sucks because they're 1200 per concoction for 6 uses (so you'll have to buy like 2), which is less money I have to burn on stuff like killer weapons to transfer over to the GMs.

Um, if the strategy here is to simply wall, what are Elincia and Leanne doing all this time? And Mordecai is taking no damage on the right side, just using a grass like 4 times or something, leaving plenty for Lethe from the other grass. Elincia would like exp somehow, and Lethe seems to be about the only unit getting attacked right now. Hmmm. Let's just waste healing items anyway.

It's also harder to feed kills to whoever's attacking from the ledge (like Neph or Marcia) if my tank is doing 1 damage instead of 15, and she also can't attack the general with nullify who's sitting below the stairs too.

So we kill him first then start using Lethe, maybe? And she's doing a lot more than 1 against the guys on the left. Heck, even the guys on the right aren't so great at 18 to 22 def (not that I'm advocating her on the right). I suppose you were again speaking of her untransformed, but she doesn't have to be.

BEXP can be used by anyone, but crowns you have to wait in line for, jack. Everyone has to compete with everyone for BEXP.

If there are more people who can use BEXP than there are who can use crowns, taking BEXP away would be the greater negative.

Except 2000 bexp doesn't exactly do all that much compared to a crown. Oh, and if there are 3 guys who use a crown 2 times better than Makalov, that's more important than like 10 guys that don't even use bexp as well as Lethe does. At least, not that 2000.

Just saying you can't focus on the number of competitors.

Gatrie

Soren

Haar

Titania

Oscar

Keiran

Geoff to assrape 3-9

Sigrun

Tanith

rofl @ Geof assraping 3-9. He's STILL not fast enough to double anything. 22 spd doubles lolsoldiers (not the halbs, soldiers), and all 2 generals in the map.

Titania and Haar are probably already promoted by the time 3-11 rolls around and we get extra crowns. Maybe even Oscar too.

That's funny. All of them promoted by 3-11? How many GMs are you using at this time? Really, anyone who's level 20 but better than Makalov is better for a crown.

double rofl @ sigrun taking it too. She would beat him in 3-11 and 3-E and then get roflstomped the rest of the game. Tanith is really not much better either.

Ever notice how she's forced in 3-11 and 3-E? No? Okay, nevermind then.

So this leaves a guy who may not even be in play, and a guy who has to take the 3-3 crown becasue taking a 3-11 crown would be too late. Even if you throw in a couple of other people who could use a crown, the competition for one by part 4 is not particularly tight, at least not as tight as something like Lethe's BEXP, which EVERYONE can use, even if it won't have as much of an effect as a crown does on specific units (i.e. BEXP benefits anyone, crown benefits only certain units but slightly more on those units).

Um, a bit more than a tenth of our bexp in 3-8 and bexp gets constantly replenished along the way vs. a crown. Yeah, you are funny.

Nice clarifying exactly when this is happening. If you think Mak's gaining 10 levels in essentially the 5 chapters where participation would actually be called for, you're mad. The point of the fact is, Makalov is not promoting until part 4.

I wonder if anyone ever reads my posts.

Mak still needs paragon for 3-11 and 3-E, w/e. Just put it on his tab. Give Lethe something you think would be equivalent. I'll give her an energy drop. So now let me do a comparison with 20/17/1 Mak and 25 Lethe with an energy drop.

If you could not deduce that I was talking about part 4, I don't have anything else to say to you.

So, 4-P/1/2, or 4-3/4/5? It's an important distinction. Then there's how many levels does he get in 4-P/1/2 if he started that one crowned to determine what his spd is like in 4-3/4/5 and various things like that.

At this point apparently I can't use any more quote boxes. So I'll cut this here and after someone makes another post I'll post the rest.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

What does that have to do with anything?

Simple. You say that due to being forced, that Mak is somehow a positive always as long as you are doing more than just not existing. Astrid's forced, she can do more than be useless. Why is she in bottom? If being forced can still mean you suck, I've no reason to accept Mak's forced status as a positive.

No, because Lethe is not better than an empty unit slot.

Apparently if you can do things, you are better than an empty slot. Question is how does she compare to the team? Luckily, she compares more favorably to it than Mak does his. Know the true difference between her and Nealuchi? Nealuchi has 1 more Str (equaling 2), but has a strike that is 1 mt weaker. The difference between Neal and Lethe is 1 mt and avoid, but otherwise identical. Now ask yourself, who transforms first? Certainly not the slow meter'd raven.

Have you even played 2-3? There are so many enemies that even WITH the NPCs surrounding Kieran/Geof, almost every single NPC dies before I finish the chapter. And that's WITH someone blocking a chokepoint so I don't have like 20 extra enemies running after Kieran/Geof.

I'd rather there be a wall than a chokepointer. Target is your friend.

Mak can't possibly take BEXP away from you in mid part 3 because he doesn't even exist. Taking BEXP away is a negative that Mak doesn't have, but Lethe will, which is why it's a negative for her.

In other words, Lethe's teammates are going to have X BEXP after Lethe eats up some BEXP, and Mak's teammates are going to have X + Y BEXP, where Y is the amount of BEXP Lethe used up.

If your logic actually held, it would give us ridiculous conclusions like Lyre > Sanaki because Lyre could be fed kills/BEXP/whatever in part 3, and then we'd say "WELL IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT RESOURCES LYRE CONSUMED OVER SANAKI, BECAUSE THOSE RESOURCES COULD HAVE GONE TO ANOTHER UNIT, BUT THAT OTHER UNIT WOULD HAVE TAKEN IT FROM ANOTHER UNIT, ETC. ETC." to try and justify it, except of course that's a load of crap.

So you'd have the resources, but not use them? What the fuck else are we gonna do with the small amount of BEXP we have? Wait till all the way into endgame to use it? Bit of a waste to just let it sit and do nothing, don't you think? If it can be used, it can be used. She'd be taking 12%, which isn't much more than anyone else on the team would be taking normally, difference being that Lethe gets quite a return out of it.

On the other hand, Makalov needs any EXP he can get, needing to take paragon from his team and hog kills, since you have a rediculously inflated 17/1 Mak, meaning he somehow gained 10 levels in 2-3 (Before we can take paragon off the team, a chapter we rush, and the enemies are giving dick exp due to being unpromoted), 2-E (where the CRK do next to nothing), 3-9 (where he has to deal with sucking worse than Keiran and Geoff without the benefit of Marcia's flight, Calill and Danved's ledge mobility), 3-11 and 3-E? Gtfo.

Besides, Lyre better than Sanaki is rediculous even considering. Even with BEXP to boost her speed, she then has to deal with crap strength and A Strike, whereas Sanaki shows up to hit pretty hard with range magic, which can hit various sources of weaknesses, and the 1-2 range making it easier to protect her than it would an untransformed Lyre. I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid. Now calm down and take a chill pill.

He could have just as easily gotten RNG blessed.

On the other hand, it's pretty hard for Lethe to get RNG blessed from that BEXP level up, since you're already assuming best case scenario for her (she got a speed proc. Technically, she could also have gotten a str and/or def proc as well, but then you'd really be grasping at straws because of how rare that is).

It also means it's harder for her to get RNG screwed. Stats good enough, needing little to get by. Wouldn't that actually be RNG safe?

I'm pretty boi wolf, and I'm forgetting that narga was giving Lethe EIGHT rounds of attacks in 2-2 which means she can't be untransformed for almost any turn in the chapter because she has to be transformed almost every single turn, and there's only one grass in all of 2-2 that has to be shared between THREE laguz and both Nealuchi AND Mordy lolwtfroflstomp Lethe's dumb ass so I'd rather grass them than lolethe.

Mordy is indeed god mode, but Nealuchi only wins offense by 1 measily might, and has the problem of taking longer to transform, meaning he needs grass far more than she does to transform as fast as possible. Do also keep in mind that there are ranged people that can target her, as only 2 could counter (Lucia, Neph), and in turn it only takes 1 to target Lethe to cause her to be able to transform the very next turn. Transformed, she's basically just as hard to kill as Nealuchi without the crossbow nuke thing (yeah Neal can survive a hit, but he can't survive a single other attack afterwards). Basically she's Neal except she transforms MUCH sooner.

Except that not only having her counter untransformed on enemy phase is a counter wasted where someone else who wasn't wasting our time could counter back for real damage so Lethe would be slowing us down even more, Lethe can only take one attack without dying since like every single enemy doubles her and she gets 3-4HKO'd untransformed. This really sucks for her because this is FoW, which means if there are any 2-range enemies lurking outside of the sight range, it royally screws up any plan to have Lethe counter something untransformed.

The mages 3RKO her even with doubling considered, couple archers only have 15 AS so they can't double, the armor knight to the north can't double and a couple steel greatlance soldiers, both of whom 3RKO her. 1 ranged attack and she's ready to transform. Some of those archers that don't double even 4RKO her. Just one archer, and poof she's transformed. I fail to see the problem of her being on the offensive, when it takes so little to get her going.

Besides, don't we have a torch? I believe Kirsche earlier said laguz have greater sight range in FoW, meaning she could be one of the people putting the torch to best use.

There are enemies with 2-range, which means up to two enemies can attack her. Which is pretty bad since it only takes ~22 att to 4HKO her. And only SOME of the thunder sages don't have 16+ AS. Which is still just as bad because they do about 14 damage to her, which means she has 37 HP/9 def, which means it only takes ~28 att to 2HKO her, which a lot of the enemies STILL have. AND, that's if a thunder sage was filling in the 2-range. If it was something like a bowgun warrior, she's sore out of luck.

Not so. See, the way the enemies at the left factor themselves in, it moves General-Swordmaster-Warrior/Sniper/Some dick with a crossbow. Generals move first, and block the space for the Swordmaster, who in turn gets behind him. Swordmasters have no range, and the first guy is always a general. They're also packing steel axes, which have about 29 MT with. She has 9 defense, and is enough to heal over with a vulnery. Then consider it only takes 1 attack to get her gauge going...

Also, vulneraries will not be enough to keep her afloat if she's untransformed. She HAS to take concoctions, which sucks because they're 1200 per concoction for 6 uses (so you'll have to buy like 2), which is less money I have to burn on stuff like killer weapons to transfer over to the GMs.

Leanne comes with a free concoction, I highly doubt she's using it.

It's also harder to feed kills to whoever's attacking from the ledge (like Neph or Marcia) if my tank is doing 1 damage instead of 15, and she also can't attack the general with nullify who's sitting below the stairs too.

They can be busy going to the right and pushing towards Ludveck.

Give Haar Pass.

If there are more people who can use BEXP than there are who can use crowns, taking BEXP away would be the greater negative.

She takes about 10%, meaning there is enough to buff at least 9 other people. Shinon has enough speed, Most others can't put it to use for relevent speed, only others that would care are perhaps Nephenee and Oscar. Plenty of room for others.

rofl @ Geof assraping 3-9. He's STILL not fast enough to double anything. 22 spd doubles lolsoldiers (not the halbs, soldiers), and all 2 generals in the map.

Titania and Haar are probably already promoted by the time 3-11 rolls around and we get extra crowns. Maybe even Oscar too.

double rofl @ sigrun taking it too. She would beat him in 3-11 and 3-E and then get roflstomped the rest of the game. Tanith is really not much better either.

So this leaves a guy who may not even be in play, and a guy who has to take the 3-3 crown becasue taking a 3-11 crown would be too late. Even if you throw in a couple of other people who could use a crown, the competition for one by part 4 is not particularly tight, at least not as tight as something like Lethe's BEXP, which EVERYONE can use, even if it won't have as much of an effect as a crown does on specific units (i.e. BEXP benefits anyone, crown benefits only certain units but slightly more on those units).

Geoff-Now who else is gonna be doubling if that's only doubling lodiers? t helps him power through towards the boss to destroy him with the brave lance and SOL. It greatly increases his offense whereas it wouldn't boost Mak's by much. It gets us through the chapter faster, it works.

Keiran-Keiran has something Mak doesn't have, better endgame potential. Mak needs to basically catch up to him, all the while Keiran could still be pulling ahead, can be crowned immediately for the 26 AS use of 3-11 and 3-E. All of Keiran's returns are much more acceptable than Mak needing to be fed kills on top of a crown. Hell, Keiran actually has a better endgame...

Titania, Haar- Promoting earlier means more destroying part 3.

Oscar- Same deal with him. Oscar promoting at level 17, which he hits after 5 measily levels, and helps him keep his speed built up for longer destruction time.

Sigrun and Tanith- Doesn't stop the fact they have instant use out of it, while Mak needs to somehow gain 10 levels first. Hell, Mak needs 3 levels just to use it period. Fine, Tanith needs 3, but it's a much quicker return that it is with Mak.

Soren-Hey, anyone complaining about an extra staffer around?

In the end, there are only 7 crowns in the game. Unless you can show Mak can put the crown to a better return than those people, I suggest you try another angle. Lethe taking 1/10 f something>Mak taking 1/7 of something.

I wonder if anyone ever reads my posts.

Mak still needs paragon for 3-11 and 3-E, w/e. Just put it on his tab. Give Lethe something you think would be equivalent. I'll give her an energy drop. So now let me do a comparison with 20/17/1 Mak and 25 Lethe with an energy drop.

If you could not deduce that I was talking about part 4, I don't have anything else to say to you.

10 Levels in essentially 3 1/2 chapters (due to 2-3 and 2-E not being exp favorable to the CRK)? Do remember we basically have to feed Mak kills due to weakness, swords, and not enough speed to double. Even WITH paragon, this is rediculous.

No, Lethe also got the BEXP from whatever the fuck chapter from mid part 3.

He's only losing spd by 1 point, and he's got a massive 75% growth, so w/e at him "losing speed".

27 AS does not double some things.

Either way, your call for giving Mak 10 levels in so such a short time is insane.

I said laguz LIKE Janaff. I didn't just say Janaff. There are also Ulki AND Ranulf.

Ulki's got a hyper speed support with Janaff and a water affinity, durability and insane dodge, and is only 1 level away from a fucking Satori sign. WTF more does he need?

Ranulf is a fair comparison though, he can get the other. There are 2 ya know.

rofl @ trying to pad that list. what do you mean "be severely overleveled"? Paragon is making him "severely overleveled". They're the same thing

Also, Lethe was given an energy drop and BEXP.

Not 10 levels in 3 1/2 chapters overleveled when Mak returns and sucks royally compared to the GM, ya psycho.

He 2HKOs white dragons and leaves red dragons with like 20 HP.

And then you ignored all of Mak's other advantages.

Looking into his endgame, he is quite a strange one...

All I can say is 2 white dragons also 2RKO him in return due to magic damage. But I suppose they're rather even here. Mak can ORKO white dragons but has a harder time killing reds, while Lethe can absolutely nuke both with Rend. I suppose I could give the win to Mak with the dragon chapter, slightly due to canto helping him run for cover easier. Laguz gem is only a problem n the first motion, but absolute terrain advantage would make it count.

Except Lethe also needs a laguz gem so she doesn't suddenly untransform on us as well. SO they cancel out.

rofl @ mak dying in this chapter. he has canto, pal. he cantos onto a wardwood, and they make up like 25% of the map.

Yes, I did notice this when looking over his endgame. He can double thunder tails without Nasir, canto helps him retreat to wardwood, and has no reason to hog Nasir for the auras, thunder affinity helping keep him even more alive. But, he basically NEEDS Alondite, as to not be a major target, as off of wardwood, it only takes 3 elementals to kill him. Range and Canto without needing Nasir does have it's advantages, and could at least land a single power shot at range with Alondite using blood tiders.

However, Lethe's holy affinity is a great boon here, and has an easier time getting to 34 AS to basically outdamage Mak with greater magic durability for the spirits, all at the cost of a turn taken for a gem. Basically it would be offense without range vs defense due to terrain advantage...

...Weirdest comparison ever.

to Reitterate my point on Brave weapons though, to bring it up. Along with a bit of Nealuchi.

Speaking of S strike though...Nealuchi. He's got 3 chapters to Lethe's 2. He doesn't return till part 4, but he has an easy to manage meter. With the action he could see, would Neal having S strike by part 4 seem unreasonable? On top of that, he's Naesala's fastest support. Naesala won't have anything else built up until endgame anyways, so a periodic C for now wouldn't hurt either of them. On top of that, he has a natural Wrath. I'm sure he won't be going to endgame without good reason (he'll need 5 levels to double auras without Nasir, can do so with Nasir naturally) but if he is, he'll be benefitting Naesala even further with more attack and more hit.

Lessay he's level 28 (I dunno, we gave him Paragon or something). He won't need Nasir, and I'm sure by now he's got SS strike. A with Naesala.

He's 1RKOing spirits like anyone with the speed should be.

Neal's got 45 ATK. With Blood Tide, he's basically got 50.

8x Order Incarnate

90 hp, -- atk, 35 AS, -- hit, 135 avo, 30 def, 30 res, -- crit, -- cev

Solid 40 damage.

Let's see how a level 30 Naesala with an A with Nealuchi functions.

52+3=55. Plust Blood Tide's 5, it's 60. Nice plus 6 Damage, leaving the Aura at 30 HP rather than 36. This would allow someone like Boyd at 20/11 be able to finish it off with Urvan without Nasir or Blood Tide, which means you can have your dragons more free to help elsewhere. Basically, he'd doing better than Boyd here.

This is ignoring hte fact we could give Neal an energy drop, effectively giving him 4 more STR.He'd have 54 Mt with Naesala A, SS strike, level 28 and Blood Tide. He can nearly 2RKO Auras, granted they aren't on a cover tile. If Neal somehow got to level 32, he can cleanly 2RKO non cover tile auras without Nasir.

To give a reference, CAINEGHIS needs Nasir to be able to do that.

Basically, all I'm asking is how meh is the inbetween with Nealuchi's part 4?

Speaking of Brave Weapons, they should truly be considered on the auras more seriously. It is basically able to double without Nasir always. Someone like Haar at 20/11 and an ATK support could 2RKO auras with the brave axe. Hell, Boyd at 20/13 doesn't even need an ATK support.

Eddie at 20/20/11 could 2RKO an aura with the brave sword, whereas Zihark would need something more potent.

Rolf at 20/11 could do the same with a brave bow

To 2 round an aura, you need to do at least 45 damage in one round of combat. With a brave weapon, you do not need Nasir (though if you're strong AND fast enough to double with Nasir, god bless). What you need to do that with the following braves...Bare minimums

Brave Sword/Bow-52 Mt with a +2 ATK. Required STR=36. If you double, thus quadding, you need to be doing 12 damage a shot. Needed STR-27. Basically you'll need blood tide, but they're more available than Nasir, and Bows are more flexible in positioning due to range. Probably best bet of damage without needing Nasir.

Eddie once he hits 39 AS can easily pull this off.

Rolf loves the bow

Lucia with BEXP strategy could pull it off as well.

Brave Lance-10 mt reduces it to 42, blood tide reduces it to 37. A +1 ATK support will be needed. Neded STR=36 without support. Aran can pull this off. Danved however has a greater chance of offensive boosts and is better before the auras, though still might not be hitting as hard, but Danved's still pretty respectable with the brave lance.

Basically, only Danved and Aran could benefit from this. Sigrun and Tanith are a tad SOL, and Tanith might as well eat a speedwing to try to get to 34 AS. Danved might want an energy drop, or BEXPd from level 17 could get the same thing.

Geoff could too, granted he has a full ATK support, but he would be in severe need of Paragon to get to that level first.

Brave Axe- 11 MT reduces it to 41, Blood Tide to 36. Following Axers that can easily reach 36 AS

-Haar (as if he weren't broken enough, though I suppose he fears spirits like a madman now he's stuck with 1 range).

-Keiran (he needs Paragon to get to 20/15, but he needed it anyways, though he could always opt for a +2 ATK support for a far more reasonable level 20/10)

-Boyd (hits it by 20/8, and do remember he has a Fire affinity, possibly the best affinity to ask for at this point).

-If you can get Gatrie to 20-13 and his axe rank to brave level, he can do it too. Lulz, Gatrie=best legitimate general in the series? He could do it at 20/10 with a +2 ATK support.

-Titania will need a full ATK support for the +2

-Brom at 20/13 with a full ATK support could pull it off too, level 20/16 without an ATK boosting support. With all the time he has though, 20/13 doesn't seem unreasonable.

Brave weapons have restored a bit of faith into this game ;;>> Though this just means it sucks harder to be tigers and mages endgame.

Basically if you can use a brave weapon to this extent endgame, you don't need to give a shit about speed.

Magic STR number for Lancers would be 36, Axers 34, and Swordies...Well you basically should be doubling to make up for it, which case the magic number is 28. If you're one of those swordies that can't double due to cap, you better be hard as fuck to kill like Makalov, which case you'd probably want the Alondite to be more flexible, since you can't put Nasir to use anyways.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Narga_Rocks]

You know, pretty boi wolf, if you keep responding to smash so well I might just stop responding. :P

Anyway, I had this typed from earlier.

So basically, your argument is you gave Makalov not only Paragon AND a crown, the only thing you gave Lethe in return is an energy drop, ignoring the fact that Mak NEEDS that crown to STILL lose to her in speed, which could break him in part 4 where 28 AS is just what we need to get by.

No, Lethe also got the BEXP from whatever the fuck chapter from mid part 3.

And that is so much more favouritism than 2 chapters of paragon and a crown? Please. And for a guy who whines so much about other people reading his posts you can't even remember 3-8?

He's only losing spd by 1 point, and he's got a massive 75% growth, so w/e at him "losing speed".

Yeah, so 1 or 2 levels later he's finally not getting beat offensively. Even after 2 chapters of paragon and a crown.

Damn well explain yourself how the 4 Str she gets from the drops is worse than the 2 that Beorc get from it, especially since the only one doubling as soon as Lethe is (AKA, isntantly) is Mia (who's offense problems is worse than just 2 STR's worth), and Shinon (and what' he's not strong enough for you?). You also get 2 by the time Janaff shows up, so he can get his own. In the mean time, Lethe's putting it to the best use at the soonest.

I said laguz LIKE Janaff. I didn't just say Janaff. There are also Ulki AND Ranulf.

Ulki needs 2 drops or he's just one rounding swordmasters and still not doing anything to warriors and halbs and possibly snipers, though I'm not sure and don't feel like checking. Point is, Janaff is the only one who gains so much from a drop. The rest don't even change all that much. Plus she never needed it in part 3 to be less bad vs. the team than Mak needed all he's getting to still be more bad vs. the team in part 4. Seems like a win for Lethe to me.

How about Lethe with less favoritism>Mak having more? Mak apparently needs Paragon AND a crown and be severely overleveled to basically tie Lethe. How do you sleep at night?

rofl @ trying to pad that list. what do you mean "be severely overleveled"? Paragon is making him "severely overleveled". They're the same thing

Also, Lethe was given an energy drop and BEXP.

You keep pretending that the small amount of bexp is so major. Vykan was attempting to give Ulki 40% or more of our bexp to make him better than Gatrie. Where was your whining then?

And she never needed the energy drop in part 3 to be less bad than Mak is in part 4 in the first place. So really the energy drop is just icing on the cake.

Unless you can show how he's consistantly ORKOing these suckers, I'd think Lethe having a far greater chance of popping off a Rend as far greater than Mak pulling off a Sol or a Crit, of which even still he might not kill like a Red Dragon on a cover tile.

He 2HKOs white dragons and leaves red dragons with like 20 HP.

And then you ignored all of Mak's other advantages.

He doesn't exactly ORKO the whites on a cover tile without a fairly high level, even considering all you gave him and denied others. And his "other advantages" are what, 2 range and canto? Yippee, he can slow us down by doing enemy phase offence less than what anyone else would've been doing. I'm so happy I let him have his 2 range.

Right, he's just having an incredibly easier time dying. He needs to be level 20/16 to match Lethe's base resistance. Basically, you need to give him Alondite or a Tempest Blade (which does not combine well with his meh strength) specifically. Without these, he's more a sitting duck than Lethe is.

Except Lethe also needs a laguz gem so she doesn't suddenly untransform on us as well. SO they cancel out.

Well, he'll miss a bunch with the tempest blade, since he doesn't have the extra 20 hit a trueblade like Mia has. With alondite, well he is taking that from others, and that matters given how a gem isn't all that contested for. Dragons just need a stone, given the length of these chapters and how slow their gauge decreases. Your royals don't need it, and Rafiel wouldn't need it. So it's just a matter of Reyson and any other laguz you bring for 15 total uses. I don't exactly see a gem canceling out the alondite. Mia might like it, Zihark, Elincia (for spirits on enemy phase), heck, even Renning at this point would be the same as Mak (aside from thunder spirits) since 29 speed with nasir doubles fire and wind just the same as Mak does. Anyway, I don't see how they completely cancel out.

rofl @ mak dying in this chapter. he has canto, pal. he cantos onto a wardwood, and they make up like 25% of the map.

Um, you realize most people are calling 4-E basically 2 chapters. Any dent Lethe can make in his "wins" in 4-E just hurts him because he needed part 4 just to be better than her overall. Sure, he won't die, but he isn't exactly beating Lethe's damage, considering Nasir can't be everywhere and a brave weapon will be insufficient on spirits sitting on cover tiles.

(moving something.)

Edited August 5, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[dondon151]

Ugh, these walls of text are so long that a black bar is stretching across the middle of the page.

Anyway, I think people ignored what I said earlier about why cat gauge is a problem. Cat gauge is not a problem because of "faces 2 attacks every turn and grasses but can't heal and can't face more than that etc." Cat gauge is a problem because during combat-intensive periods (because that's how FE generally works), they face limitations on how many enemies they can attack, else they do actually risk untransforming.

I don't see any problem with the "revert when you're not facing combat" strategy, which I employ with every laguz that I use anyway to minimize grass usage. It's just that this strategy obviously doesn't work when you need to fight.

[nflchamp]

No, because Lethe is not better than an empty unit slot.

This is what the majority of people here likely disagree with you on. It is extremely difficult to be worse than an empty unit slot in this game. There are units that are better than others, but it almost never occurs where an empty unit slot is doing better than a unit. (An empty unit slot could beat Astrid in 2-3, though, depending on your perspective.)

Mak can't possibly take BEXP away from you in mid part 3 because he doesn't even exist. Taking BEXP away is a negative that Mak doesn't have, but Lethe will, which is why it's a negative for her.

In other words, Lethe's teammates are going to have X BEXP after Lethe eats up some BEXP, and Mak's teammates are going to have X + Y BEXP, where Y is the amount of BEXP Lethe used up.

Of course there's a negative associated with using BEXP. It's just that if the team doesn't care whether it has X or X + Y BEXP, then the negative is basically non-existent. Even if the negative amounts to something, you have to compare it to the positive gained from using it. The unit will have more positive utility (aka move up on the tier list) if the positive from using the resource outweighs the negative.

In other words, using a resource is both a positive and a negative. You can't just say "taking BEXP is a negative" and handwave it as a win for a unit that doesn't use any.

It's also harder to feed kills to whoever's attacking from the ledge (like Neph or Marcia) if my tank is doing 1 damage instead of 15, and she also can't attack the general with nullify who's sitting below the stairs too.

I'd like to mention that if Lethe does even 1 point of untransformed damage to an enemy while not dieing, she gets the EXP for damaging an enemy of a 20/1 unit and not a 20/20/2 unit.

Edit: Sorry, looking at the wrong column there. :P

Edited August 5, 2009 by nflchamp

[grandjackal]

So what is everyone's thoughts on Brave weapons? Basically it can be shown some people can 2RKO, since no way in hell is anyone ORKOing the auras ever. These people also will not need Nasir, whereas someone like Chaineghis would.

I could see Boyd rising, as not having the 34 AS for the auras not affecting him in the least, which in turn would free Urvan to Nolan, since it's tons better than Tarvos at the auras due to the sheer mt difference and +3 Res and the fact Nolan gets 34 AS much easier. This also means there's no reason we can't spam Tarvos prior to endgame.

Danved is salvageable though not the perfect endgamer for the auras especially, and Aran can be shown to be quite acceptable as well, and I highly doubt you'd bring more than 2 lancers to endgame as the only endgame lances worth a damn are Wishblade and Brave Lance. Geoff can also put teh lance to use, granted we paragon the hell out of him in the laguz chapter.

It can also be shown that the help Lucia needs is not as much as one thought (you only need 28 strength and quading with the brave), that Eddie can tear up pretty well with it as well.

With Lughnasahd, Brave Bow and Double Bow, all acceptable archers have their own weapon to utilize for endgame (and Leonardo only needs 29 AS, thanks to Lughnasahd boost). Sure, none of them will be as good as Shinon is with Double Bow, but they can still pull off something acceptable (..Ok, maybe not so much Leo due to strength, but at least he bothered to bring an offense boosting affinity to the fight).

How would you say this would change these characters?

EDIT: Dawww, Narga, you makin' me blush.

As for the point Dondon brought up, if it can be used just as effectively with other laguz, I fail to see the problem of keeping cats active then. If you get the same results, the only problem is that you have to revert for laguz in general.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Narga_Rocks]

Basically if you can use a brave weapon to this extent endgame, you don't need to give a shit about speed.

Yeah, but just think what they can do with 34 speed (or 39) and a brave weapon.

With both red dragons it takes 43 mt (+10 = 53) to ORKO a wardwood tile aura. (Think Elincia). With just one red dragon it takes 48 mt, though I think that's really just Jill, Nolan, and Boyd that can pull that one off. They need 37 str and a brave axe or 35 str and a +mt support. Boyd of course has 40 str long before 34 speed so he's not worried about str. Boyd with 40 str and 34 speed and an A support can ORKO auras with just Nasir. (40 + 11 + 2 - 30) x 4 = 92. Heck, give him double red dragon and he can ORKO a cover tile (corner) aura. That's nuts. Nolan isn't likely getting 40 str in HM, but he'd just need a +mt support to do the same if he could get 40 str. Jill needs one red dragon, max str, and a +mt support, and of course Nasir to pull that off.

Speed still helps.

Is there any unit that can ORKO an aura with just Nasir aside from Boyd? The lions need 75 mt to pull that off, they top out at 73 for Giffca with an A rank (how?) fire/dark/water support. And he'd need to get 3 str as well. There is nobody in this game aside from Boyd that can ORKO an aura with just Nasir and his support aside from Boyd and Nolan, and Boyd has an easier time reaching 34 speed than Nolan does reaching 40 str. And a lot of people don't give the Nolan x Micaiah pairing a chance, so with whom is his +mt support anyway?

Interestingly, Leo is actually the only sniper than can theoretically pull off ORKOing with the brave bow and one blood tide. Sadly, he's getting neither 36 str nor 34 spd, but if he could:

(36 + 9 + 3 + 5 - 30) x 4 = 92. Anyway, Rolf and Shinon only get +2 mt from a fire/water/dark support, so they are capping at 88 damage, and Shinon also has issues reaching 36 str.

Also, Nephenee caps at 34 str, so even a +mt support means 51 mt with one red dragon and an A support and max str, or 82 damage with Nasir.

As for the point Dondon brought up, if it can be used just as effectively with other laguz, I fail to see the problem of keeping cats active then. If you get the same results, the only problem is that you have to revert for laguz in general.

Yeah, which helps vs. Kyza, but the issue here is that we are facing her off against Mak. I might actually be willing to let Mak > Lethe, just not by this much. He's not even close statistically most of the time, so the gauge issue can't possibly counteract it that much. If she didn't have gauge issues and had those statistical advantages over Mak, I think she'd be the one 11 units and a tier gap up on him.

As for Kyza, when they are both at 30 she can face 5 enemies and still pull off the revert + grass thing to get back to 30 another turn later. He can face 6 and do the same. This is, of course, during basically two turns. Get to 30, tranform, attack, on enemy phase get attacked by 4 (Lethe) or 5 (Kyza), revert and grass on the following player phase. So turn 3, 5, 7, 9 can be spent with the attacking, and turn 4, 6, 8 are spent grassing. She's not that much worse if we employ the wave method. In some circumstances it might present a real problem, but not enough to counteract her offensive leads on him, nor her part 2 help.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[dondon151]

As for the point Dondon brought up, if it can be used just as effectively with other laguz, I fail to see the problem of keeping cats active then. If you get the same results, the only problem is that you have to revert for laguz in general.

Like I said earlier (and also in the same post), the problem with cat gauge is that it is extremely restrictive in terms of when the unit actually needs to see a lot of combat in a short amount of time.

[grandjackal]

Basically if you can use a brave weapon to this extent endgame, you don't need to give a shit about speed.

Yeah, but just think what they can do with 34 speed (or 39) and a brave weapon.

You mean 2RKOing to 2RKOing? ...Impressive? This is my point, 2RKOing is 2RKOing. An STR heavy can coexist with a Speed heavy character in endgame.

With both red dragons it takes 43 mt (+10 = 53) to ORKO a wardwood tile aura. (Think Elincia). With just one red dragon it takes 48 mt, though I think that's really just Jill, Nolan, and Boyd that can pull that one off. They need 37 str and a brave axe or 35 str and a +mt support. Boyd of course has 40 str long before 34 speed so he's not worried about str. Boyd with 40 str and 34 speed and an A support can ORKO auras with just Nasir. (40 + 11 + 2 - 30) x 4 = 92. Heck, give him double red dragon and he can ORKO a cover tile (corner) aura. That's nuts. Nolan isn't likely getting 40 str in HM, but he'd just need a +mt support to do the same if he could get 40 str. Jill needs one red dragon, max str, and a +mt support, and of course Nasir to pull that off.

Speed still helps.

Yeah, Boyd's still nuts. In fact, he only needs 34 STR and a full attack support to be able to 2RKO with a brave, which anyone else does anyways. Know what this means? Boyd early on can be eligeable for a crown, as he can still end up passable for endgame quite easily. Hello 2 speed from nowhere and extra crit.

But here's the thing though. You don't need to attack dragons with a blessed weapon. The brave weapons would be for like boss only situations. Brave weapons against the likes of the goddes and Deigensea, it's fair game for anyone.

Is there any unit that can ORKO an aura with just Nasir aside from Boyd? The lions need 75 mt to pull that off, they top out at 73 for Giffca with an A rank (how?) fire/dark/water support. And he'd need to get 3 str as well. There is nobody in this game aside from Boyd that can ORKO an aura with just Nasir and his support aside from Boyd and Nolan, and Boyd has an easier time reaching 34 speed than Nolan does reaching 40 str. And a lot of people don't give the Nolan x Micaiah pairing a chance, so with whom is his +mt support anyway?

No, and thus my point. If you're 2RKOing, the extra damage you do is almost negligeable. This helps slow but strong guys have existing endgame, and downplays the likes of Tibarn and Cain. As with their supports, their problem is getting to an A with the right affinity. Giffca could support Cain to do so himself (I believe), but Giffca couldn't. Giffca could instead support someone with an offense boosting affinity (too bad no one fast has one) and be able to do so himself, while Cain can get one from elsewhere. Both have a problem of getting a support to A within that time.

Interestingly, Leo is actually the only sniper than can theoretically pull off ORKOing with the brave bow and one blood tide. Sadly, he's getting neither 36 str nor 34 spd, but if he could:

(36 + 9 + 3 + 5 - 30) x 4 = 92. Anyway, Rolf and Shinon only get +2 mt from a fire/water/dark support, so they are capping at 88 damage, and Shinon also has issues reaching 36 str.

Either way, he averages 29 speed easily by the time the auras show up, so he's usable. Problem is his strength. He's got a water affinity, but the question is, is it enough?

29 Str at level 12 tier 3. Let's say he has a full offense boosting support. 48 damage to 30 defense auras. With Nasir, 18x2=36. 9 short. Let's give him a blood tide on top of Nasir. 53. 23x2=46. Just enough to 2RKO. Granted, he needs white and blood tide, but he can be utilized.

Also, Nephenee caps at 34 str, so even a +mt support means 51 mt with one red dragon and an A support and max str, or 82 damage with Nasir.

It's still just 2RKOing, just give her the Wishblade.

Yeah, which helps vs. Kyza, but the issue here is that we are facing her off against Mak. I might actually be willing to let Mak > Lethe, just not by this much. He's not even close statistically most of the time, so the gauge issue can't possibly counteract it that much. If she didn't have gauge issues and had those statistical advantages over Mak, I think she'd be the one 11 units and a tier gap up on him.

As for Kyza, when they are both at 30 she can face 5 enemies and still pull off the revert + grass thing to get back to 30 another turn later. He can face 6 and do the same. She's not that much worse if we employ the wave method. In some circumstances it might present a real problem, but not enough to counteract her offensive leads on him, nor her part 2 help.

Come on, work with me here...T.T

Yeah, I can see that transformed, tigers can keep a tanking strategy going, but normally there will be the revert option being used which in a way equalizes meter a bit. With that in mind, there is to be considered that cats usually pull an easy offense lead (well...Most). They both have an up and a down, and that tiger tanking still eats through grass so you have to manage your items a bit more properly with tigers to keep their main strategy active.

Also, I'm about to suggest something crazy....

Illyana and Soren gap needs to close. She has chip damage in part 1, thick magic damage with crit, which could spell someone's doom. Due to her starting level, I could see her promoted by part 3. A seal won't change much.

Soren there on has a level lead, and basically a 5 magic damage lead. However, Illyana has a way to cover this, which she can bring from part 1: Arch Thunder.1 more Mt than Elwind and has 15 crit, with which her crit will total to 23. She'll be pulling off random bombs here and there which would be instant kills, as opposed to basically a 4 mt constant Soren would have. Illyana will also be leveling faster. Considering the difference at best is 4, and that it will close soon enough, both getting to 10 isn't unreasonable. Thing is, Soren will never get the speed to have much of an offense lead.

Looking at stats...

Illyana, 20/10/1

37.35 HP, 20 Str, 23 Mag, 25 Skill, 21 Speed, 12.8 Luck, 16 Def, 20 Res

Soren 10/20

34 HP, 14.25 Str, 29 Mag, 25 Skill, 21 Speed, 12.75 Luck, 14 Def, 25 Res.

Both can use staffs, but do note the 3 HP and 2 Def lead, and the fact that Light affinity not only would boost her defense further, but her accuracy for her thunder magic. She also happens to be a quick support for Mia, someone who would love more defense, gives accuracy boost for Illyana, and gives Illyana a bit of offensive padding along with defense. Let's say 3-7. Not sure who'd Soren would support best with, so I'll pair him with a sort of guy still sticking around. He has no defensive support that would want him. C with Mia for Illyana.

1x Warrior lvl 10 (Hand Axe)

HP 42, Atk 32, AS 20, Hit 125, Avo 55, DEF 16, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 15

Soren would need a defense support to not get 2RKOd, while Illyana gets 3RKOd.

1x Halberdier lvl 9 (Steel Greatlance)

HP 37, Atk 33, AS 20, Hit 123, Avo 53, DEF 19, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 13

No hope for Soren here, 3RKO for Illyana.

3x Swordmaster lvl 10 (Steel Blade)

HP 34, Atk 30, AS 24, Hit 126, Avo 63, DEF 16, RES 11, Crit 21, Ddg 15

1x Swordmaster lvl 11 (Storm Sword)

HP 34, Atk 30, AS 24, Hit 114, Avo 64, DEF 16, RES 11, Crit 22, Ddg 16

If Illyana has a B with a defensive support, or somehow got an A with Mia, these guys 4RKO her whereas they would 3RKO Soren.

2x Axe General lvl 11 (Short Axe)

HP 39, Atk 35, AS 17, Hit 116, Avo 50, DEF 25, RES 15, Crit 10, Ddg 16

1x Lance General lvl 11 (Short Spear)

HP 40, Atk 32, AS 18, Hit 111, Avo 52, DEF 25, RES 15, Crit 10, Ddg 16

More people she has an easier time getting 3RKOd against while Soren has to worry about 2RKO.

1x Sniper lvl 11 (Steel Longbow)

HP 38, Atk 33, AS 20, Hit 122, Avo 56, DEF 18, RES 12, Crit 21, Ddg 16

Still more.

1x Dragonmaster lvl 10 (Steel Axe)

HP 40, Atk 34, AS 18, Hit 127, Avo 48, DEF 21, RES 7, Crit 10, Ddg 12

Yet another she gets 3RKOd by.

Basically this trend continues and grows, as she has 15% more HP, and 5% more defense, while his only noticeable offense lead is magic. Fastforward to part 4, both promoted. Level 10/10 let's say.

Illyana: 42.85 HP, 24 STR, 29 Mag, 30 Skill, 24 Speed, 16.8 Luck, 19.1 Def, 25.5 Def. A Mia=2Mt, 15 Acc, 2 Def.

Soren: 38 HP, 16.75 Str, 36.25 Mag, 30.4 Skill, 26.8 Speed, 16.25 Luck, 16.75 Def, 25.5 Res.

Soren's only noticeable lead is negligeable speed that doesn't really double anything 24 AS doesn't, and a 7 magic lead. Granted this is an offensive lead, that Darkness would increase, but notice that Illyana basically has a 4 HP lead and a 5 Def lead. Moar countering?

I dunno...Maybe I'm coocoo.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Zkirsche]

You mean 2RKOing to 2RKOing?

Mathematically impossible. In order to 2RKO a unit must deal 50% damage what you're saying is that they do this after attacking twice. If this was true, what happens if they attack 4 times? That's a clean ORKO. The only way doubling does not double the amount of damage you deal is if yo udeal 0 damage, which certainly doesn't 2RKO anything.

[Narga_Rocks]

You mean 2RKOing to 2RKOing? ...Impressive? This is my point, 2RKOing is 2RKOing. An STR heavy can coexist with a Speed heavy character in endgame.

Well, actually it isn't that simple. There are 4 nihils and 2 paritys and a lot of units we want attacking. Jill picking up a brave and not using a red dragon but using Nasir causes so much damage a lot of units are OHKOing. So, Jill with Nihil means an aura dies and nobody was damaged. If two units are 4HKOing then at least one of them is taking damage unless they both have nihils.

Of course, assuming Reyson and Lehran, as long as a unit has 45 hp they can't possibly get themselves killed by aurora on turn 1. Lehran gets everyone back to full if he is the last unit used on turn 1. Turn 2 after the wave attack he can ashera staff first, then as long as you only vigor units with parity or nihil then if you KO Ashera on turn 2 you'll be fine.

On the other hand, if you are KOing Ashera on turn 3, you need to be a little more careful, and so it might help to avoid getting damaged by aurora. At this point, the braves (and nihil) on the units that can quad is pretty neat.

Yeah, Boyd's still nuts. In fact, he only needs 34 STR and a full attack support to be able to 2RKO with a brave, which anyone else does anyways. Know what this means? Boyd early on can be eligeable for a crown, as he can still end up passable for endgame quite easily. Hello 2 speed from nowhere and extra crit.

But here's the thing though. You don't need to attack dragons with a blessed weapon. The brave weapons would be for like boss only situations. Brave weapons against the likes of the goddes and Deigensea, it's fair game for anyone.

I wasn't really talking about the dragons in 4-E-3. My dragon references were about using Ena and Gareth for their blood tides. Maybe I should say blood tide. Anyway, the funny thing is that with 2 Blood Tides (and White Pool) he can ORKO a corner (cover tile) aura. That's nuts.

Anyway, deg is only taking damage from a brave if you have at least 46 mt without Ena. Boyd could actually do 8x4 damage with a brave if he has 34 spd and an A support, yes, but he's top of the line. Everyone else is less. eg: Haar has 38 str, so 51 mt with an A water/dark/fire, or 56 with Ena. He's doing 12 damage with a brave. 2 without Ena. He does 10 damage without Ena with Urvan and 15 with Ena. It's just downhill from there, really. Let's all be thankful they didn't give him a cover tile.

No, and thus my point. If you're 2RKOing, the extra damage you do is almost negligeable. This helps slow but strong guys have existing endgame, and downplays the likes of Tibarn and Cain. As with their supports, their problem is getting to an A with the right affinity. Giffca could support Cain to do so himself (I believe), but Giffca couldn't. Giffca could instead support someone with an offense boosting affinity (too bad no one fast has one) and be able to do so himself, while Cain can get one from elsewhere. Both have a problem of getting a support to A within that time.

Okay, they aren't completely useless. Like the one turn Ashera video used Haar with a brave weapon as part of it, and I think it was necessary, though I didn't analyze it too much. So they aren't useless, just that the 34 speed units are better. Especially when you throw in spirits and deg. Though really deg generally isn't a gang up. I mostly do it with Ike, Shinon, and the Urvan user. Well, maybe a single royal, too, sometimes. Well, and heron support and ena, of course.

Either way, he averages 29 speed easily by the time the auras show up, so he's usable. Problem is his strength. He's got a water affinity, but the question is, is it enough?

29 Str at level 12 tier 3. Let's say he has a full offense boosting support. 48 damage to 30 defense auras. With Nasir, 18x2=36. 9 short. Let's give him a blood tide on top of Nasir. 53. 23x2=46. Just enough to 2RKO. Granted, he needs white and blood tide, but he can be utilized.

Well, with Leo you have to get him there. Kind of like using Mak in 3-11 and 3-E when he's not doubling and using Lethe to build strike to S in 3-4 and 3-7 and 3-8 (before she gets it in 3-8, that is). But Leo has to be babied in part 1 which isn't as easy as babying in the GM chapters.

It's still just 2RKOing, just give her the Wishblade.

Well, with no dragons but a +mt support she's pulling 46 mt with a brave, or 64 damage, leaving 26 that just about anyone can OHKO. Well, the guys with low speed anyway, since most of them tend to have high str.

With the wishblade and the same, she's pulling 58 damage, or 56 damage, leaving 34. Meaning 64 mt to OHKO instead of 56 mt. The point is, if you aren't 2 turning Ashera it helps.

Come on, work with me here...T.T

Well, it's just that I don't like Lethe's 3-4 and 3-7 where she's doing less than most units on enemy phase. By 3-8 she can pull 32 mt, which aside from vs. generals and dragonmasters isn't so bad since it lets a lot of units finish the kill. So I'm happy enough to argue her against Mak and put in anything I see in her favour and anything that hurts Mak, and let the chips fall as they may. But I'm not going to deny Lethe's issues.

Yeah, I can see that transformed, tigers can keep a tanking strategy going, but normally there will be the revert option being used which in a way equalizes meter a bit. With that in mind, there is to be considered that cats usually pull an easy offense lead (well...Most). They both have an up and a down, and that tiger tanking still eats through grass so you have to manage your items a bit more properly with tigers to keep their main strategy active.

Well, against Tigers and Hawks the cat gauge is worse than against any other laguz with gauge. Well, it's got it's major issues against the other ones, obviously, but this is what I mean:

Lions get 5 per turn. Which means they can't transform by turn 3 without 2 grasses or a stone or some untransformed battling.

Wolf (Volug) gets 6 per turn, same deal.

Vs. dragons is irrelevant since by then we have gems and can buy stones.

Unfortunately, laguz stones exist, of course, but oh well, at least they are somewhat limited until 4-E-1.

As for tigers and hawks, one grass and two turns equals 31, so really 30 and enough to transform. Cats get 35 from the deal, but they don't get to use the extra 5 anyway. If cats just had 15 per turn they'd be balanced. They untransform faster, but can go down to nothing and still be able to grass and transform the following turn. Easy advantage over anything else. At that point, losing 4 per battle and 5 per turn isn't so bad compared to losing 3 per battle and 4 per turn but only getting +8 gauge per turn while untransformed.

Also, Tigers can go down to 7 and revert + grass and be transformed the following turn. Not much different from the cats needing at least 5 to pull it off.

Oh well, just another example of balancing issues. Seriously, even giving them +14 per turn would help, since they could then go down to 1 and still pull off the revert + grass thing.

Or as Int said a while back letting things transform before 30. If it goes up to 20, let them transform, they'll untransform sooner, so it doesn't really change much. That would help cats a bit, too.

You mean 2RKOing to 2RKOing?

Mathematically impossible. In order to 2RKO a unit must deal 50% damage what you're saying is that they do this after attacking twice. If this was true, what happens if they attack 4 times? That's a clean ORKO. The only way doubling does not double the amount of damage you deal is if yo udeal 0 damage, which certainly doesn't 2RKO anything.

I think the point was that with a vague katti (for example) they might 4HKO (for example) but with a brave it'll be 5 or 6 HKO (for example) and thus 2 rounding anyway. I still think more total damage is more useful, though.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Narga_Rocks