OMG it's a tier list

[grandjackal]

I think Boyd's Endgame superiority is already factore in, if Mordy had a decent Endgame(or could double without Resolve lol) he'd be higher.

Boyd's endgame is so goddamn good, he could crown early and still be fucking awesome, thanks to brave weapons. He can afford NOT to have 34 AS.

Do you see the point here? I know I'm having a hard time getting it across, but I'm not sure how better to put it.

[Shadow Mir]

I think Boyd's Endgame superiority is already factore in, if Mordy had a decent Endgame(or could double without Resolve lol) he'd be higher.

Boyd's endgame is so goddamn good, he could crown early and still be fucking awesome, thanks to brave weapons. He can afford NOT to have 34 AS.

Do you see the point here? I know I'm having a hard time getting it across, but I'm not sure how better to put it.

Considering your penchant for senseless hype, taking you seriously is not something I'm inclined to do... And I see no reason to have someone raised on the basis of 4-E-5 alone.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Jonathan Aulin

[grandjackal]

I think Boyd's Endgame superiority is already factore in, if Mordy had a decent Endgame(or could double without Resolve lol) he'd be higher.

Boyd's endgame is so goddamn good, he could crown early and still be fucking awesome, thanks to brave weapons. He can afford NOT to have 34 AS.

Do you see the point here? I know I'm having a hard time getting it across, but I'm not sure how better to put it.

Considering your penchant for senseless hype, taking you seriously is not something I'm inclined to do... And I see no reason to have someone raised on the basis of 4-E-5 alone.

Auras are 90 HP, 30 Def.

Brave axe is 11 Mt

34 Str would make it 45 MT

2 Blood Tides would make it 55. 55-30=25, 25x2=50, 50x2>90. 2RKO.

Boyd would only need to have 37 STR and a pure offense boosting support (or 38 Str, and any support in general), and all he needs is one blood tide to pull that off. However, some people use Nasir and a blood tide, so using 2 blood tides is no different either.

Level Boyd needs to have 34 STR= 20/5

37 Str=20/9.

Considering his join time, this is rather low for him, don't ya think?

Edited August 6, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Florete]

Considering your penchant for senseless hype, taking you seriously is not something I'm inclined to do... And I see no reason to have someone raised on the basis of 4-E-5 alone.

Auras are 90 HP, 30 Def.

Brave axe is 11 Mt

34 Str would make it 45 MT

2 Blood Tides would make it 55. 55-30=25, 25x2=50, 50x2>90. 2RKO.

Boyd would only need to have 37 STR and a pure offense boosting support (or 38 Str, and any support in general), and all he needs is one blood tide to pull that off. However, some people use Nasir and a blood tide, so using 2 blood tides is no different either.

Level Boyd needs to have 34 STR= 20/5

37 Str=20/9.

Considering his join time, this is rather low for him, don't ya think?

And I see no reason to have someone raised on the basis of 4-E-5 alone.

I think you're missing the point. No one is denying that Boyd is good in 4-E-5. Either that, or yeah, you're having a really hard time getting it across right.

[grandjackal]

I think you're missing the point. No one is denying that Boyd is good in 4-E-5. Either that, or yeah, you're having a really hard time getting it across right.

It's not raising for just part 4 alone -_-;; that would be like Meg or Fiona.

But to put it simply, it's not training just for endgame, but rather a cause that someone who has a net positive doesn't run into the fact they won't go to endgame solely due to 1 part of it and rack up unecessary negative when it can be shown they can be positive.

Example: For spears, to do what Boyd does there with 34 STR, you need 36 Str. Aran gets that, and he can get an STR boosting support.

[Narga_Rocks]

I think you're missing the point. No one is denying that Boyd is good in 4-E-5. Either that, or yeah, you're having a really hard time getting it across right.

It's not raising for just part 4 alone -_- ;; that would be like Meg or Fiona.

But to put it simply, it's not training just for endgame, but rather a cause that someone who has a net positive doesn't run into the fact they won't go to endgame solely due to 1 part of it and rack up unecessary negative when it can be shown they can be positive.

Example: For spears, to do what Boyd does there with 34 STR, you need 36 Str. Aran gets that, and he can get an STR boosting support.

This really would only help people like Gatrie and Titania. Basically, units that have enough speed for 4-E-1 and everyone doubles in 4-E-3 and with braves they might not suck so bad in 4-E-5. The thing is, Vykan's already been saying stuff like that. Basically, that Gatrie or Titania can use braves and still be okay for 4-E-5, so as long as they are good in the rest of the game and in the rest of part 4, 4-3/4/5 shouldn't be end of the line for their usefulness. This doesn't really help units that are bad before 4-E anyway since 4-E isn't so long. It only helps the units that are already good in the rest of the game, because the exp wouldn't go to waste when you reach 4-E. If they stunk up 4-E completely, then there would be a good argument to not use them at all the rest of the game and focus on the units with a 34+ speed cap.

Like I said, though, lots of people have already been making arguments like this to downplay the pointlessness of raising certain <= 33 spd cap characters in parts 3 and 4.

The only real difference here is that you are making an argument for giving Boyd an early crown that is less easily countered by the statement that it would likely prevent him from reaching 34 speed.

I'm not sure how it would really help some of the other characters that you mentioned.

[-Cynthia-]

Eh, it probably just decreases the overall usefulness of characters only available for 4-E. Yeah, Stefan can double auras, but if Gatrie does more with a Brave Lance we don't care so much. Even characters that aren't "good" for 4-E can become decent with a Brave(some of them).

[grandjackal]

To be good in 4-E-1 and 2, you need generally 28-32 AS to be "good" without a brave weapon. Someone like Danved would be perfectly fine here. 4-E-1 due to how many generals there are, I'd be surprised anyone not a Warrior would be ORKOing these guys, so it would be more reliant on mastery skills. Something like Impale or Luna would be great here, though doubling would double your chances, only ones doing that normally here would most likely be Oscar, Neph and Nolan along with swordmasters in general. Well, that and the obvious royals.

4-E-2 is more troublesome, as faster enemies tend to scramble about there. Again, only the above would reliably be doubling without a brave.

4-E-3...Fucking dragons. If you can't double them, you fail.

4-E-4 and 5 with the spirits, well...You need generally high speed, of which again the people above might have a problem, even Oscar with his 33 AS and problematic strength.

4-E-5, might as well be either a braver or a 34 AS guy.

Basically what Cynthia said though, I think that generally sums it up. More people can find ways to function endgame, which would downplay some endgame guys.

[Lord Raven]

fighting the spirits is generally more about resistance than AS, of neither you really need considering it's probably more efficient to kill some spirits and attack Sephiran directly. And you only need like five units (Ike, three royals, shinon, etc etc) to do this and like a Royal for Sephiran.

using nasir isn't out of the question (far from it) for 4-E-5 either. I think you only need like 33 AS with nasir's help to double the spirits

Edited August 6, 2009 by Lord Raven

[Narga_Rocks]

To be good in 4-E-1 and 2, you need generally 28-32 AS to be "good" without a brave weapon. Someone like Danved would be perfectly fine here. 4-E-1 due to how many generals there are, I'd be surprised anyone not a Warrior would be ORKOing these guys, so it would be more reliant on mastery skills. Something like Impale or Luna would be great here, though doubling would double your chances, only ones doing that normally here would most likely be Oscar, Neph and Nolan along with swordmasters in general. Well, that and the obvious royals.

Actually, you'd be surprised what 3HKOing and adept plus a mastery skill plus a crit rate on a silver forge can do for %kill rates, in the event of doubling. Even Gatrie can pull a huge kill rate with just 31 speed. I did the calculations before but he was over 80%. I'm not sure what kind of skill and luck he'd have but it's possible that even a hammer has a lower kill rate because of the chance of a miss (a forge with hit wouldn't miss, or at least would have about 30 more hit than a hammer), and plus he'd do more damage with a forge if he doesn't get an activation than he would with one hit + one miss with a hammer, or I think he would, anyway. It might be close.

Point is, doubling can cause a massive increase in the chance to pull a KO. Of course, only 3 units will have adept for the 80+% proc rate, but I'm also pretty sure that crit + mastery on a doubler will give a greater proc rate than crit + mastery + adept on a unit that doesn't double.

Of course, units that don't 3HKO will have issues, and Sothe likely doesn't 3HKO even with Baselard and a Micaiah support. (28 + 18 + 2 = 48 mt, so 51hp/31def enemies are in fact 3HKOd so only the 32 def ones are not). Also, Sothe is only assisted by a mastery on the first attack, so calculating an actual proc rate would be hard considering we don't know if the game gives priority to crits or adept or bane. If he adepts on the first hit he's fine, and a crit or bane on the first will also make him fine. But a, he needs 4 str in 4-3 alone (not happening) and b, even if it did his proc rate would not be calculable because it would be higher if crit and adept take priority than if bane does. Also, I think bane and adept might be able to activate together, but if bane overrides a successful crit than that's an issue.

Anyway, other units that might not reach 80% even if they double would be sol users and Ike. Astra and Deadeye and Lethality users likely wouldn't have a problem because of innate crit on top of the critforge, and Shinon likely 2HKOs anyway with double bow after turn 2, if he has enough str (like, 33 str ORKOs all but 33 def or 32 def 53 hp generals. And he only needs 31 if he has a +mt support. And Ena pulls off the ORKO for cover tile ones.) So Ike will be using Ragnell so his crit rate would be low, and without 57 mt (max str + mt support) he's not ORKOing many of them, and even 57 mt could miss the 32 def ones. So his Aether (skill/2) rate is an issue. Still, he could take hammer so he doesn't matter. (More skl than Gatrie, so hopefully his hit rate will be high enough to make a better kill rate than he can achieve with adept.)

Really, the only units who can't pull off 80% kill rates or more with Adept on these guys are ones that don't 3HKO, don't double, or have sol. And it's possible that 4HKO with doubling might even pull of 80%, but I don't really feel like calculating right now. Though sol users with the speed to double and who 3HKO (only takes 50 mt to 3HKO reliably, except any 33def generals that might exist) would likely pull in over 70% with adept and a critforge. Though maybe only 60 something, again I don't feel like calculating.

Now, of course braves could help pull it off, but keep in mind for most units a brave is not pulling 50 mt (3HKOing), in fact even Haar needs a +mt support and 37 str to do it with a brave axe, or 38 mt with a brave lance. Still, only a Reaver can do it without a +mt support being necessary, and Boyd has 29 spd by the time he has the 37 str to do it with any support. And braves can break, here. So mostly braves aren't actually making many units able to hit the heights of others. Take away adept, like you'll have to for most of the units, and the gap in proc rate still exists. On top of that, brave weapons have no crit, so that gets reduced to needing 2 adepts to activate for the 4HKO or needing a mastery in one of the two attacks (small chance of 1 adept plus mastery as well). Which really isn't anywhere near as high a proc rate as adept + crit + mastery when you 3HKO normally.

4-E-2 is more troublesome, as faster enemies tend to scramble about there. Again, only the above would reliably be doubling without a brave.

So, Oscar, Neph, Nolan, and swordmasters. Too bad Sothe's spd growth is not very thief-like. Well, Oscar no longer pulls it off on Warriors.

So, we need 33 for warriors, and swordmaster enemies can burn. (don't mean fire spells)

Note that most of these units will also be fine for 4-E-1 doubling, and for 4-E-1 we can actually add units like Ranulf and Makalov and Lethe and others. Heck, those three in particular might even make it to this list if they got levels in 4-E-1. Others like Titania can technically reach 33 speed, but do so at such a high level that it probably has not happened yet, though it's easier if they received a speedwing earlier in their career.

Well, Heather and Volke could double, but we aren't likely bringing them.

Jill, Marcia, Shinon, Hawks, Volug, Calill (needs rexflame, though), Elincia, Nealuchi, Ike (especially if slowplayed and bexped in part 3), Rolf might have reached 17/12 or 20/12.

Still, I didn't increase your list by too many units. Though it does kind of cover the roster.

Oh, a side note for fun, Elincia at a high enough level is ORKOing everything here, except maybe the pseudo-boss (needs cancel or stun to activate in the first two hits to ORKO, otherwise he activates resolve on the counter and she doesn't double, so not 100% ORKO on one enemy). All she wants activations for is to kill the enemy before the counter, since she doesn't 2HKO much.

4-E-3...Fucking dragons. If you can't double them, you fail.

Sanaki with bolting. It's funny, though. She needs 16 spd, and starts with 11 spd with Bolting while standing next to Ena. She actually manages to pull it off at level --/--/8. At which point she also has 37 mag so 55 mt later and Reds are basically 1HKOd by anything.

Anyway, since Sanaki is the only one with issues, it's fine.

4-E-4 and 5 with the spirits, well...You need generally high speed, of which again the people above might have a problem, even Oscar with his 33 AS and problematic strength.

Oscar has a 32 AS cap, but whatever. My list above is fine. Calill actually has a fairly easy time ORKOing them with rexflame and Nasir if they just stay off wardwood tiles. Without Nasir she needs 33 mag and an A support to ORKO thunder spirits, 34 mag for fire, 35 mag for wind. Only 31 spd and 30 mag is needed to ORKO any of them with Nasir. Like, level 9. Soren needs level 13 with Nasir, and can't do it ever without.

Anyway, 34 spd characters can actually double at range, meaning it's easier to kill the things that love cover tiles so much on the following player phase. Unless you deploy Ena/Kurth. All the spirits ping and Ena/Kurth almost ping. Well, Ena would actually ping if she hasn't got str or a +mt support.

4-E-5, might as well be either a braver or a 34 AS guy.

Well, the bravers need blood tide mostly for the 2RKO, while the 34 AS ones mostly just need Nasir (@Lord Raven, sadly 33 AS is insufficient even with Nasir, since the auras have 35 speed). Mia only needs her support and no Nasir (edit, added the no, oops for when I said with Nasir), for example. Though trueblades should strap on parity and team up with Tibarn with parity to take out cover tile auras. Just need 29 str and Vague Katti in conjunction with base level Tibarn. That's basically only going to be pulled off by like Haar with a brave axe and max str and Boyd with a brave axe and 38 str. Nobody else gets to 38 str. (Parity means that +mt supports mean nothing)

Another thing to consider, though. Mia has 40 skl, up to 35 luck, and a 95 hit weapon, and parity to counteract the 2 star deficit, and still only pulls like 90% on the things. She may have been at bad or worst bio at the time, though, considering 40 skl and 30 luck counteracts their 35 spd and 40 luck so she should have 95 at neutral like that. Basically, brave weapons have 80, 85, or 90 hit. The hit rates just go down. And one blood tide does basically the same thing as parity for the hit rate (though allows supports to boost it further). Point is, lots of your other units lack both the skill and the luck to pull her natural hit rate, and the brave weapons just compound that. Missing is annoying. The SS weapons all have lots of hit, Vague Katti is actually tied for last (Balberith can burn) so most of your 34 speed units with these things are not likely to be missing, especially since they can use reds too.

Basically what Cynthia said though, I think that generally sums it up. More people can find ways to function endgame, which would downplay some endgame guys.

Well, I've always thought Stefan and Volke should fall a bit, anyway.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Progenitus]

I think narga and wolf were having a competition, to see who could make me facepalm harder from the sheer stupidity of their posts.

I'm not sure who won. here's some of narga's crap.

The fact that you suck doesn't mean that we do.

wow, what a wonderful counter to my point. Let me make something just as strong and convincing.

'no u'

and then he goes and says this...

Um, so everyone who took a minor amount of bexp is worse than Mak? Besides, you think resetting once is just as bad? Do you know how many times other people have to reset because of Zihark in 3-6? Just because you've gotten lucky so far doesn't mean on average there wouldn't be resets. The only reason I've never had to reset because of that moron is because I don't stick him in chokepoints in 3-6. And before you say that it's not relevant, it is, because a guy in high tier doesn't seem to be hurt for causing resets. Besides, speed is .15 higher than her 4th highest growth. If we don't call that speed point reliable, nothing is where bexp is concerned, so you've just attempted to throw out a fair amount of arguments tonnes of people have made over the last while.

So if I need Mak to block a chokepoint so that 20 cavs won't be chasing after my main forces, because the NPCs alone are probably not going to be enough to keep Kieran and Geof alive for the entire, I'm somehow horrible at this game, but if I can keep Zihark alive in a map where most people "claim" to have had him die on them, I'm "lucky"?

Here's my counter to this

You suck at this game and I'm a master strategist.

retard. It's called an average for a reason. And like Pretty boi wolf said, 5 battles in 2 chapters? How do you sleep at night. Anyway, she can get 6 in 2-2 and rather easily attain 10 in 2-E, if you don't suck. Keep in mind, we decided to try to use her. So since either Brom or Lethe can tank the left, why would you use Brom if you decided to use Lethe? You are the one who doesn't seem to take issue with giving crap like Mak a crown and 2 or more chapters of paragon just to attempt to make him better than Lethe. Why can't she be used a bit in 2-E? Or I could even wait until 3-4 and 3-7 to cover the rest of the average. You don't have to get 8 battles every single chapter for the average to be 8.

First, thanks for not refuting ANYTHING I said about 2-2.

Second, we let Brom tank the left stairs instead of Lethe because he doesn't have to waste player phases spamming grasses, nevermind there being a shortage of grasses in the first place which means Lethe spamming them makes Mordy and Nealuchi worse because they have fewer grasses to use.

Of course at this point I'm expecting a rebuttal such as "you suck at this game if you are using a team/strategy that is easier/stronger than the one I want to use!" and then ignore what I said, or perhaps give me an extremely long-winded and convoluted strategy to keep Mordy and Nealuchi transformed with no grasses and ignore the fact that it's long-winded and convoluted and everything would be so much easier if we just handed them the grass so they could use it whenever they wanted instead.

I'm pretty sure Mak doesn't lose to people like Marcia and Danved in 3-9 nearly as much as Lethe loses to Brom in blocking that stairway in 2-E, so rofl @ thinking Mak needing babying in 3-9 is even comparable to having to baby Lethe at this retarded stairway.

Waiting until 3-4 and 3-7 doesn't do us shit, since now we have a slew of uber units like Ranulf and Ike and Haar just shitstomping Lethe into oblivion, so lol @ the idea of trying to baby Lethe in those chapters.

Why is she untransformed? 22 atk does 4 damage. It takes 13 of these to kill her. I know pretty boy was mentioning as if she was, but she doesn't need to be. There is the grass from 2-2 and one that can be picked up on turn 2 rather easily. We don't need that much grass.

We have a grand total of TWO grasses in 2-2 and 2-E (there's technically a third one, but it's at the bottom floor where the nullify general is, so glhf pushing all the way down there, especially since if you're using Lethe to block the stairs she's going to burn through an entire grass before we even reach it anyway), and the second one has to be picked up by Heather, except this olivi grass is like on the other side of the map of the other items Heather can steal/pick up (like the stat boosters some of the generals have), which means Heather wastes several turns picking up that grass before moving on to looting other things.

Except 2000 bexp doesn't exactly do all that much compared to a crown. Oh, and if there are 3 guys who use a crown 2 times better than Makalov, that's more important than like 10 guys that don't even use bexp as well as Lethe does. At least, not that 2000.

Just saying you can't focus on the number of competitors.

2000 BEXP for Janaff gives him like half a level or so. Which means just giving him another 2000 will put him at level 30, where he starts soloing maps by spamming olivi grasses because he has like a 56% chance of getting Tear on a double and never dies.

Beats the shit out of giving it to Lethe.

Not saying Lethe can't get the BEXP (or the energy drop for that matter), but it's ridiculous to try and give her that, and then not even give Mak paragon for a few maps + crown.

Although wolf is putting up pretty good competition against narga.

I'd rather there be a wall than a chokepointer. Target is your friend.

Thanks for ignoring my point.

I'm saying using Mak > not using Mak, because Mak can hold a chokepoint and does it better than everyone except Kieran/Geof (even if marginally so vs Danved, but vs Marcia definitely, since Marcia can't face any bows), which means I cut off like 20 cavs from the NPCs and Kieran/Geof so those guys don't get wtfswarmed while Kieran/Geof bumrush the chapter.

So you'd have the resources, but not use them? What the fuck else are we gonna do with the small amount of BEXP we have? Wait till all the way into endgame to use it? Bit of a waste to just let it sit and do nothing, don't you think? If it can be used, it can be used. She'd be taking 12%, which isn't much more than anyone else on the team would be taking normally, difference being that Lethe gets quite a return out of it.

On the other hand, Makalov needs any EXP he can get, needing to take paragon from his team and hog kills, since you have a rediculously inflated 17/1 Mak, meaning he somehow gained 10 levels in 2-3 (Before we can take paragon off the team, a chapter we rush, and the enemies are giving dick exp due to being unpromoted), 2-E (where the CRK do next to nothing), 3-9 (where he has to deal with sucking worse than Keiran and Geoff without the benefit of Marcia's flight, Calill and Danved's ledge mobility), 3-11 and 3-E? Gtfo.

So you have two paragons and not use them? What the fuck else are we gonna do with the two paragons we have in 3-11 and 3-E? Wait till all the way into endgame to use it? Bit of a waste to just let them sit and do nothing, don't you think? If they can be used, they can be used. He'd be taking one of two paragons, which isn't much more than anyone else on the team would be taking normally, difference being that Mak gets quite a return out of it (he's getting like 3-4 *extra* levels from paragon while people like Neph and Boyd are probably only getting maybe 2, and even higher level people like Titania/Haar are getting maybe 1).

On the other hand, Lethe needs any BEXP and rounds of attacks she can get, needing to take BEXP from her team and hog rounds of attack, since you have a ridiculously inflated S-strike and 26 spd Lethe by 3-8 or whatever laughable chapter so she doesn't suck dick from 3-4 to 3-10, meaning she somehow gained 70 attacks in 2-2 (I explained why it was ridiculous for her to get any significant amount of attacks in thsi chapter, but it was brushed aside with an eloquent "no u"), 2-E (ditto), 3-4 (where she has to deal with sucking worse than Haar/Ike/Gatrie/Shinon/Ranulf/Mordy without the benefit of Soren's 2-range, Mia's crit, and major transformation issues against everyone except Ranulf [Mordy being slightly better]. Technically Titania/Oscar would be mentioned, but fucking cliffs), 3-7 (throw in Janaff AND Ulki), blah blah blah? Gtfo.

Besides, Lyre better than Sanaki is rediculous even considering. Even with BEXP to boost her speed, she then has to deal with crap strength and A Strike, whereas Sanaki shows up to hit pretty hard with range magic, which can hit various sources of weaknesses, and the 1-2 range making it easier to protect her than it would an untransformed Lyre. I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid. Now calm down and take a chill pill.

Lyre has a lot less att, but at least she doubles, and has about 1261236125 times more durability because she doesn't get one rounded by like everything in the map. Lyre doesn't care about transformation issues if her opponent is Sanaki, since by the time Lyre receives the number of attacks required to make her untransformed and *then* kill her off, Sanaki would've been killed like 5 times over.

Not to mention that Lyre would be a lot more salvageable than Sanaki, since 2-3 energy drops would make her somewhat like a crappy version of Ranulf, and dracoshields is a massive +4 def for her, while Sanaki's durability is never salvageable (lol @ 28 HP/10 def for 4-P), and would need 2-3 speedwings to be doubling (granted, if she doubles she's one rounding, but there's only so much you can do with a glass cannon).

The major reason why Lyre isn't comparable to Sanaki is because we're not retarded and we realize that Lyre sucking and consuming resources in part 3 does not come even close to overriding Lyre beating Sanaki, or at LEAST tying, when they both exist in part 4. We don't go "oh well since Sanaki doesn't even exist it doesn't matter what favoritism we're throwing on Lyre, even if it's 'minor'"!

Which brings me back to the original point; you can't say "let's give Lethe bexp in 3-8 or whatever and it's fine because Mak doesn't even exist".

Mordy is indeed god mode, but Nealuchi only wins offense by 1 measily might, and has the problem of taking longer to transform, meaning he needs grass far more than she does to transform as fast as possible. Do also keep in mind that there are ranged people that can target her, as only 2 could counter (Lucia, Neph), and in turn it only takes 1 to target Lethe to cause her to be able to transform the very next turn. Transformed, she's basically just as hard to kill as Nealuchi without the crossbow nuke thing (yeah Neal can survive a hit, but he can't survive a single other attack afterwards). Basically she's Neal except she transforms MUCH sooner.

Except Nealuchi has canto, and doesn't untransform as fast as she does, and has like 123561235123 more avoid, and more def, and has wrath, and hell may even have a support with Leanne by 2-E (according to the support data Vincent got, it's an FF 01 support, which for reference is the same as Ike x Soren, which is ridiculously fast, and since Nealuchi and Leanne have 2-P and 2-2 it's much easier to get than, say, Lethe x Mordy, which only has 2-2) which is now +1 att and def when she's in range.

Are you seriously trying to suggest Lethe is better than Nealuchi in part 2?

Ulki's got a hyper speed support with Janaff and a water affinity,

36 att stops 2HKOing by Ulki's joining chapter, pal. Energy drop gives him +4 att, which means he has a much greater reach on what he can 2HKO.

durability and insane dodge,

HEY GUYS ULKI HAS UBER DURABILITY.

O W8, WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH HIS OFFENSE?

and is only 1 level away from a fucking Satori sign.

2

Which sucks for him because "lolbexp" is not going to be enough to get him to level 30, since that's going to be a huge chunk of BEXP. Most likely he can't even think of reaching level 30 until early part 4.

Of course at this point I know someone is going to tell me, "BUT SMASH EVERYONE IS DISAGREEING WITH YOU, THEREFORE YOU'RE WRONG." And frankly, I don't give a shit if people like narga or int disagree with me. I'm making these posts for the other people like Raven and Jonathan. If I can convince them, then I'll have accomplished my mission.

Not like appeal to popularity means anything anyway. When Reikken first started his "jeigans like Titania leeching exp is a load of crap" arguments, didn't everyone disagree with him until we realized he was right?

BTW, if you actually think Lethe's performance in part 3 after getting BEXP'd a speed level AND getting S-strike is somehow positive, or fuck even neutral, here's a funny comparison. You said it's like 3-8 or something.

20/18 Shinon, A Gatrie, crossbow

28.0 att, 26.0 AS, 199.5 hit, 25.0 crit - - 91.5 avo, 45.0 HP, 25.25 def, 18.0 res, 16.5 critavo

I'll be nice to Lethe and assume she got a str/spd/def level up from her BEXP (rofl @ that happening).

Lethe, A Mordy, S-strike

35.0 att, 26.0 AS, 202.0 hit, 13.0 crit - - 85.0 avo, 51.0 HP, 22.0 def, 22.0 res, 18.0 critavo

Lethe has 7 more att (respectable), but Shinon has 12 crit (not better than 7 att, but at least worth mentioning).

Shinon has a bit better durability.

And then Lethe has to worry about a transformation gauge, AND Shinon is countering 2-range.

And this is basically Lethe's best case scenario, where she just got S-strike (in 3-4 and 3-7 she definitely won't have S-strike, which is -5 att, at which point the comparison becomes a total joke and Shinon aizenstomps), AND somehow got the best level up possible with BEXP, AND got A Mordy (pretty hard to do, since I only see a C at 3-4 base, and then maybe a B at 3-8 base. A B instead of an A, btw, would be -1 att and def), AND before Shinon promotes and gets more durability and more crit/mastery (although I suppose by the time he does promotes we're at 3-11 so we can drop all comparisons between Lethe and other GMs and just focus on Mak vs Lethe).

CLEARLY Lethe is a positive even after receiving BEXP/extra attacks/support abuse with Mordy/whatever (note that Shinon received absolutely nothing), but Shinon with a crossbow? THAT SHIT WILL NOT STAND. BOTTOM TIER NAO.

Edited August 6, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Zkirsche]

Basically what Cynthia said though, I think that generally sums it up. More people can find ways to function endgame, which would downplay some endgame guys.

Gatrie with a brave axe 3RKO's auras, with the Wishblade Gatrie 4RKO's auras. Level 13 Stefan with the brave sword 3RKO's Auras. With the Vague Katti, Stefan 3RKO's Auras. Not needing a brave weapon to 3RKO > needing a brave weapon to 3RKO.

Besides, all you really said was Gatrie > Stefan, which is common knowledge.

@Lord Raven, sadly 33 AS is insufficient even with Nasir, since the auras have 35 speed).

I think you only need like 33 AS with nasir's help to double the spirits.

[grandjackal]

Gatrie with a brave axe 3RKO's auras, with the Wishblade Gatrie 4RKO's auras. Level 13 Stefan with the brave sword 3RKO's Auras. With the Vague Katti, Stefan 3RKO's Auras. Not needing a brave weapon to 3RKO > needing a brave weapon to 3RKO.

Besides, all you really said was Gatrie > Stefan, which is common knowledge.

@Lord Raven, sadly 33 AS is insufficient even with Nasir, since the auras have 35 speed).

I think you only need like 33 AS with nasir's help to double the spirits.

Fuck the spirits, the auras are the bigger problem when it comes to Nasir.

As for Gatrie with a Brave.

36 Str+11Mt from the brave axe=47+Blood Tide=52. A single + in ATK from a support is doing 46 damage=2RKO.

Though this is with Gatrie, which Vykan brought before, as he mentioned a bit earlier, but it effects others. Brom for instance.

[Zkirsche]

Stefan with the Vague Katti and blood tide has 54.5 Atk. Stuff about Gatrie dealing more is BS. Brom at level 20/20 has the same Atk as gatrie. So I fail to see your point.

Edited August 6, 2009 by kirsche

[grandjackal]

Stefan with the Vague Katti and blood tide has 54.5 Atk. Stuff about Gatrie dealing more is BS. Brom at level 20/20 has the same Atk as gatrie. So I fail to see your point.

Both are 2RKOing is my point. Do keep in mind Brom has an offense boosting affinity where Gatrie does not.

Just saying, a brae weapon would help if you got the strength but not the speed.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Jaybee]

Wtf's the debate about now?

Also, I love this irony.

Except my post is supposed to be read with all three paragraphs in mind, not taking each paragraph separately and then countering them like that, since that's taking them out of context.

I only feel like responding to a few things, since narga makes stupidly long walls of texts that are usually irrelevant to the debate anyway.

Looks like someone needs to read their own posts.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Joshybear25

[grandjackal]

It's about Brave Weapons helping people endgame who have the strength but not the speed, mainly for the auras, a part which could dissuade people from using people without 34 AS, especially bad for those without the speed cap. Speaking of the Auras, you need 34 AS and Nasir to double as Nasir would make 34+5=39, which is 4 above the 35 AS Auras have.

Anyways, as for the decided changes. It's been agreed that Tanith needs to drop to at least Lower Mid, and I say she should fall below Lucia. Lucia's got a chapter's positive, and returns with basically the same problem Tanith starts with anyways. On the other hand though, a talisman and BEXP can make Lucia perform like a superior Zihark with natural Parity, while on the other hand it is still rather troublesome to get Tanith to 34 AS, discouraging the use of bothering to train her. We may have to give Lucia more BEXP than Tanith would, but she benefits far greater after a talisman than Tanith would from a Secret Book (3 Str, Luck and Def>2Str, 2 Speed and 3Def).

On top of that, Lucia's got every option to choose from for a final weapon, be it Alondite, Vague Katti, or better off with the Brave Sword. Tanith's 3rd tier cap forbids her from being able to utilize the Brave Lance to 2RKO auras, Lucia's got wyrmslayers. Tanith even after BEXP Skilled does not gain 34 AS until level 20/15. Hell, Tanith needs 3 levels and a crown just to stop sucking.

Basically it's Lucia's 1 net positive chapter and a salvageable part 4 compared to Tanith needing to be trained up anyways to be not quite as good, but with flight.

[-Cynthia-]

Tanith's going to be a lot more ready for Part 4 though, IE she should very close to promotion while Lucia's 20/14.

[grandjackal]

Tanith's going to be a lot more ready for Part 4 though, IE she should very close to promotion while Lucia's 20/14.

Tanith needs 5 levels to promote, and has 2 chapters before part 4 to do it, where she is statistically incredibly sub-par. You're better off just saving yourself the effort and just BEXP steroiding the both.

Tanith would need a skill book and 4 levels of BEXP to get to 20 where you can inject another, crown, or just let her fight to earn her promotion. Lucia had some training in part 2 and could have gotten the boss kill. She would need at worst maybe 4 1/2 levels of BEXP and a Talisman before the same results occur.

In the end, we'd get this.

BEXP Lucia with Talisman 20/1-44 HP, 24 Str, 15 Mag, 32 Skill, 32 Speed, 24 Luck, 20 Def, 21 Res -Do keep in mind that Zihark can't be this good this soon in part 4.

BEXP Tanith20/1- 39 HP, 27 Str, 14 Magic, 26 Skill, 28 Speed, 22 Luck, 25 Def, 24 Res.

Lucia has a 5 HP, 16 ACC lead, 12 Avoid lead, 3+Swordmaster bonus crit lead while Tanith has a 3 Str and 5 Def lead. Both have similar defense, though the offensive lead for now goes to Tanith. However, this is pre-endgame and keep in mind how normally pain in the ass it would have been to train her normally with the GM. Another problem is that Tanith will still have trouble doubling endgame even basic units, considering with the 2 chapters they'd have, she'd need 3 levels to double even the slowest general. Lucia there basically can double anything on arrival, and slowly can work to 39 AS later for the auras. 3 levels and Nasir could already allow her. Tanith won't see 34 AS in any reasonable amount of time.

Basically it goes like this. Lucia's got a chapter of utility due to being an actually good unit. Tanith's got a chapter of utility, but it's due to flight rather than being able to actually fight. With similar favoritism however, Tanith only wins pre-endgame part 4, while Lucia tears her apart there. With this in mind, Lucia is also able to put one of the many swords available to good use. She'll have the strength to use the brave sword on the auras in case Alondite and Katti are taken. She can use Alondite or the Katti themselves. Wyrmslayers for the dragons. Tempest blades. Everything is under the sky for swordsmen endgame. Tanith on hte other hand doesn't have the speed to pull decent offense even earlier in endgame, much less once spirits and auras appear. She doesn't have the speed to use Nasir to double the auras, nor (thanks to her cap) will she ever have the strength to utilize the Brave Lance for a similar effect. On top of that, Tanith has no real good support to bring to endgame. BEst bet is Sigrun, which is great again in pre-endgame, but bringing another failboat into endgame for boosts that will soon be negligeable is just unwise. On the other hand...

Lucia's got a fast support with a character she's forced with anyways on an EXP heavy route, that person being Elincia. Earth helps them both early in endgame, while Holy helps them both during the spirits and auras. Elincia has the capability to be a great combatant there too, along with staff usage. Cherry on top is they have a Bond, a +10 to crit. I think Lucia's endgame breaker would trump out Tanith being mediocre for the small parts of part 3 and being better pre-part 4.

...Here's a weird thing though, now looking at Bonds.

Elincia has a bond with Geoff (who has endgame potential with brave lance, though he'll need paragon), Lucia (another endgame potential due to getting insane boosts with proper though heavy favoritism), and Renning (....I guess eh could be used? Guess you need to give him a speed wing). This overall would get her +30 crit ;;>>

Lucia has a bond with Lucia and Geoff which gives her 15 crit (why does Geoff only give her 5?), which paired up with her 15 bonus from her class would be 30.

Geoff has a bond with Keiran (again, another endgame viable due to brave), Lucia, Elincia and Bastian, overall another 30 Crit.

Renning only gets love from Elincia for 10 crit, Keiran only getting 5 from Geoff. Sorry Bastian, you only get 10 to fix your suck. Oh well, at least you got thunder magic and sniper spells.

By no means is this an attempt to make this a serious endgame team, but I just find it weird that Elincia, Geoff and Lucia have a way to manage a nice big crit advantage. How well would 30 crit stack with Sol? 30 Crit and constant doubling with Amiti and Stun, perhaps even quading eventually. Lucia with her huge crit lead (lets say has 36 Skill, she'd have like 48 crit at base), on top of Astra, and putting Adept to the best use among them, meaning her kill ratio would be like...Somewhere in the 70s, right?

I know this is a rediculous team to bring to endgame, but I just had to lol and bring it up.

[Narga_Rocks]

I think narga and wolf were having a competition, to see who could make me facepalm harder from the sheer stupidity of their posts.

Don't do that. You might damage your brain more if you hit yourself too hard!

The fact that you suck doesn't mean that we do.

wow, what a wonderful counter to my point. Let me make something just as strong and convincing.

'no u'

Me:

Anyway, for your first post I only need to add a little to pretty boi wolf's stuff.

I didn't really feel too much was necessary for that. Really, though, the partners on target do fine on turn 1 if you target the correct position, and only one fighter gets in the way that Marcia/Kieran/Geoffrey could all kill. Next up on turn 2 you can block that little outlet from the left that's one space wide with a partner, and Marcia/Geoffrey/Kieran move up. Turn 3 you have to actually kill some mounted knights to move on, but Geoffrey could do some of that on enemy phase if you wanted. Anyway, Geoffrey stands on the arms scroll square with a short spear, Kieran moves just underneath, the partners move up below them and stay out of range of the two bowgun or crossbow guys. I never remember what they have. Anyway, Marcia moved over to just below the wall a little bit left so that the warrior with a bowgun can't attack her. Enemy Phase, Geoffrey whacks the two bowgun guys, so Geoffrey/Kieran finish the two of them off on player phase, Marcia takes out the horseslayer guy. Partners move forward to draw the Onagers while still blocking the enemy paladins. Unless you think the enemy paladins can waltz through 6 partner paladins to reach Geoffrey/Kieran/Marcia, then yes, you suck if you think:

Except they're retarded and they can't hold a chokepoint, since if you put them on target/halt they ALL go to the point, and if they're at a chokepoint they're leaving Kieran/Geoffrey exposed.

Because on target they block what you need to block and they don't leave Kieran/Geoffrey exposed, except from the enemies in the north that you pretty much have to kill anyway like the bowgun warriors and the general and the boss and the speedwing guy. Really, though, since the stuff I just wrote above has been posted on this very thread multiple times (some by me, some by others), I didn't really see the point in typing it again. You didn't learn then, you won't learn now.

and then he goes and says this...

Um, so everyone who took a minor amount of bexp is worse than Mak? Besides, you think resetting once is just as bad? Do you know how many times other people have to reset because of Zihark in 3-6? Just because you've gotten lucky so far doesn't mean on average there wouldn't be resets. The only reason I've never had to reset because of that moron is because I don't stick him in chokepoints in 3-6. And before you say that it's not relevant, it is, because a guy in high tier doesn't seem to be hurt for causing resets. Besides, speed is .15 higher than her 4th highest growth. If we don't call that speed point reliable, nothing is where bexp is concerned, so you've just attempted to throw out a fair amount of arguments tonnes of people have made over the last while.

So if I need Mak to block a chokepoint so that 20 cavs won't be chasing after my main forces, because the NPCs alone are probably not going to be enough to keep Kieran and Geof alive for the entire, I'm somehow horrible at this game, but if I can keep Zihark alive in a map where most people "claim" to have had him die on them, I'm "lucky"?

Um, did he ever face a death chance? Look, if there is one guy sitting in front of Zihark, and Z had adept still on him and was using anything but a bronze sword, he could kill on enemy phase. All those silly laguz that stay untransformed until they can attack meaning if Z blicks the one in front of him he could face another, kill him face another, kill him face another. Easily he can face up to 4. He's 2HKOd. Trust me, if he's never died while you've been doing this and Z had a B Nolan and no resolve, you got lucky. If you abused them to A, then it doesn't really matter because that will almost certainly push you over the bexp limit in at least 1-E, and be very restrictive in 1-6 anyway. Plus it takes resolve away from the GMs, though that's more forgiveable. Anyway, if you gave Zihark the bronze sword on those enemy phases, then no, keeping him alive wouldn't have anything to do with luck. It would however likely result in less damage than others could have done that same enemy phase, so I'm not seeing the whole speeding up aspect of using Zihark anyway.

Here's my counter to this

You suck at this game and I'm a master strategist.

Was the master strategy abusing to A support or giving him Resolve or giving him a bronze sword for enemy phase when you could've just used someone else?

First, thanks for not refuting ANYTHING I said about 2-2.

Why did I need to? It's simple enough to get 6 attacks with her on only 2 grass uses. Transform on turn 3, fight a bit, revert and grass, fight a bit more. 6 attacks, easy.

Second, we let Brom tank the left stairs instead of Lethe because he doesn't have to waste player phases spamming grasses, nevermind there being a shortage of grasses in the first place which means Lethe spamming them makes Mordy and Nealuchi worse because they have fewer grasses to use.

Of course at this point I'm expecting a rebuttal such as "you suck at this game if you are using a team/strategy that is easier/stronger than the one I want to use!" and then ignore what I said, or perhaps give me an extremely long-winded and convoluted strategy to keep Mordy and Nealuchi transformed with no grasses and ignore the fact that it's long-winded and convoluted and everything would be so much easier if we just handed them the grass so they could use it whenever they wanted instead.

Nope, not a you suck for this. Just a complaint about inconsistency. Nealuchi doesn't need grasses anyway if you let him take out the silver greatlance user. It gets him more strike than he's likely to get anywhere else on the map and the CRKs have an interesting time doing it anyway and it makes it easier to get it to a unit going to 3-2 for selling or using. As for Mordy, I don't have any strategy to keep him transformed without grass use. But we have two. He only needs it every other turn anyway, really.

Now, the complaint about inconsistency is this: In the past, you've commented on chapters like this and 3-7 that you really don't actually need to be able to do anything, and it's all about getting experience. Really at any time Haar + Elincia can waltz down and butcher the boss with help from Leanne. So whether you have Brom on the left or Lethe doesn't really matter. Further, in 3-11 and beyond you seem perfectly willing to give Mak paragon and probably feed him lots of kills to actually reach --/17/1 by 4-1/2 and yet Lethe isn't apparently getting any consideration for the simplest way to build her strike gauge in 2-E. Guess what, it costs us less to build her strike in 2-E than it costs to build Mak in 3-11 and 3-E. Especially since we don't even have to kill anything in the west once we've picked up Nullify. So you don't suck for using a better strategy here, you are simply inconsistent because babying Mak is okay in chapters with an actual goal but babying Lethe in a chapter that Brom/Lethe aren't helping to fulfill anyway is not okay.

Hey, what do you know, your expectation was wrong. Surprise surprise.

I'm pretty sure Mak doesn't lose to people like Marcia and Danved in 3-9 nearly as much as Lethe loses to Brom in blocking that stairway in 2-E, so rofl @ thinking Mak needing babying in 3-9 is even comparable to having to baby Lethe at this retarded stairway.

Waiting until 3-4 and 3-7 doesn't do us shit, since now we have a slew of uber units like Ranulf and Ike and Haar just shitstomping Lethe into oblivion, so lol @ the idea of trying to baby Lethe in those chapters.

You realize you are mixing up comparisons. Either stick with her 2-2 and 2-E vs. his 2-3, 2-E, and 3-9, or move on to her in the entire game vs. him in the entire game, don't try to argue her part 3 unless you include his late part 3 suck.

2-E isn't really Lethe's big selling point. Either can do it, and if you want to actually clear out a section then her + Brom + Haar + etc will do a better job than without her. Really, she can about cancel his 3-9 with her 2-E simply because all he's doing is a couple of attacks here and there to help clear things out, same as her.

As for part 3, there's plenty of enemies. Are you trioing the map with Ranulf, Ike, and Haar? Well, I suppose Haar doesn't double and Ranulf doesn't ORKO anyway, so Ike kills things and the Haar/Ranulf combo kills things. Still, I don't see that destroying the chapter. Anyway, Lethe can easily be built for strike here. Don't really see why not. All you showed is how other units are better. To be consistent, shouldn't the same apply to Mak in 3-11 and 3-E? Well, how's he getting to 17/1 in part 4 (2 chapters after other people could have benefited from the crowns) when we can't even build Lethe's strike up to S by partway through 3-8?

We have a grand total of TWO grasses in 2-2 and 2-E (there's technically a third one, but it's at the bottom floor where the nullify general is, so glhf pushing all the way down there, especially since if you're using Lethe to block the stairs she's going to burn through an entire grass before we even reach it anyway), and the second one has to be picked up by Heather, except this olivi grass is like on the other side of the map of the other items Heather can steal/pick up (like the stat boosters some of the generals have), which means Heather wastes several turns picking up that grass before moving on to looting other things.

Heather gets the grass on turn 2, and it's on the way to stealing the draco and the other olivi grass anyway. Heck, if we start the chapter with the original grass in Mordy's hands in the east, it seems good that the other grass is on the west side. Anyway, the energy drop is droppable, so Heather isn't needed there, and since it is far far easier to just use Leanne and various fliers to pick up the draco shield and the other grass than it is to push through 10 or more armors/generals, I don't really see why it's a problem to keep Heather in the very area from which she takes off. At which point, Lethe is right there for the grasses. Don't see why it's so hard to get her 10 strikes.

2000 BEXP for Janaff gives him like half a level or so. Which means just giving him another 2000 will put him at level 30, where he starts soloing maps by spamming olivi grasses because he has like a 56% chance of getting Tear on a double and never dies.

Beats the shit out of giving it to Lethe.

Not saying Lethe can't get the BEXP (or the energy drop for that matter), but it's ridiculous to try and give her that, and then not even give Mak paragon for a few maps + crown.

Not all favouritism is created equal. We have far far more bexp than we have crowns and paragons. And since there are only 2 paragons, Marcia and Calill would also benefit from them, and actually get the speed to be useful thanks to paragon. Mak can't even say that, since he has that cap and won't be doubling in his second part 4 chapter anyway. Lethe takes a bit, and Janaff and Ulki could still have some and your other characters could still finish off levels after capping. All that can be done at once, you can't give paragon to all the people who want it at the same time. Heck, even a crowned Gatrie would benefit more since he'd actually be able to double in part 4 with extra levels.

Although wolf is putting up pretty good competition against narga.

I'd rather there be a wall than a chokepointer. Target is your friend.

Thanks for ignoring my point.

I'm saying using Mak > not using Mak, because Mak can hold a chokepoint and does it better than everyone except Kieran/Geof (even if marginally so vs Danved, but vs Marcia definitely, since Marcia can't face any bows), which means I cut off like 20 cavs from the NPCs and Kieran/Geof so those guys don't get wtfswarmed while Kieran/Geof bumrush the chapter.

Um, Marcia is more offence here, since the bow users can easily be avoided. And Kieran and Geof can get protected by the npc. Mak can actually die. The reason the Mak on a thicket strategy works so well is because he gets boosted avo on the thing and will almost immediately get surrounded by units without canto. Mak will likely die by the 8 unit paladin swarm. The npcs are more numerous than he is and the enemy tends to alternate attacks based on whether the enemy itself has a 2 range weapon or 1 range and various things like that. They sometimes send 3 against the same unit, but not more. If you toss Mak in with the other partners, he likely isn't even being attacked because they'd rather attack the partners anyway. At which point Mak may as well not even be there. Mak at that point is functionally equivalent to an empty slot. At least in the south on a thicket unequipped he keeps 4 or 5 enemies (possible 2 range unit if it fell out of range of the partners) alive and ready to give bexp.

So you have two paragons and not use them? What the fuck else are we gonna do with the two paragons we have in 3-11 and 3-E? Wait till all the way into endgame to use it? Bit of a waste to just let them sit and do nothing, don't you think? If they can be used, they can be used. He'd be taking one of two paragons, which isn't much more than anyone else on the team would be taking normally, difference being that Mak gets quite a return out of it (he's getting like 3-4 *extra* levels from paragon while people like Neph and Boyd are probably only getting maybe 2, and even higher level people like Titania/Haar are getting maybe 1).

We use them on units that are better and gain more than Mak, maybe? Marcia and Calill get similar returns (even more for Calill), except they are both better for endgame anyway. That's already 2 units. Soren gets more use, because anything that gets him closer to usable speed is good. Others will as well, even if they only gain two extra levels to his 3 (I don't see 4 anyway), because they are better than he is. Anyway, the point is also that Mak + team means the other team members are not getting as many paragons as if we did Lethe + team, since Lethe isn't using it in those chapters. Not to mention, he needed those 2 chapters of paragon just to catch up to her statistically, so clearly the team would be better off in those chapters with Lethe than with Mak.

On the other hand, Lethe needs any BEXP and rounds of attacks she can get, needing to take BEXP from her team and hog rounds of attack, since you have a ridiculously inflated S-strike and 26 spd Lethe by 3-8 or whatever laughable chapter so she doesn't suck dick from 3-4 to 3-10, meaning she somehow gained 70 attacks in 2-2 (I explained why it was ridiculous for her to get any significant amount of attacks in thsi chapter, but it was brushed aside with an eloquent "no u"), 2-E (ditto),

Really? It isn't like you've shown she can't get 16x2 by the end of 2-E. You've just shown that Brom can also do stuff in 2-E so if we wanted we didn't have to use as many grasses. That's not exactly a big achievement considering we know we are trying to use Lethe since we are grading her, and as such we might as well make use of opportunities to build strike. It isn't like Brom is necessarily being used in part 3 anyway. Even if he is, letting Lethe build some strike won't hurt him much.

3-4 (where she has to deal with sucking worse than Haar/Ike/Gatrie/Shinon/Ranulf/Mordy without the benefit of Soren's 2-range, Mia's crit, and major transformation issues against everyone except Ranulf [Mordy being slightly better]. Technically Titania/Oscar would be mentioned, but fucking cliffs), 3-7 (throw in Janaff AND Ulki), blah blah blah? Gtfo.

Um, I said it before but I'll say it again: If we can't get Lethe enough strike, then how can we possibly find ways for Mak to kill enough things in 3-11 and 3-E to actually hit 17/1 by part 4? Seems like our competence level is going up just in time to improve Mak but not Lethe.

Lyre has a lot less att, but at least she doubles, and has about 1261236125 times more durability because she doesn't get one rounded by like everything in the map. Lyre doesn't care about transformation issues if her opponent is Sanaki, since by the time Lyre receives the number of attacks required to make her untransformed and *then* kill her off, Sanaki would've been killed like 5 times over.

Not to mention that Lyre would be a lot more salvageable than Sanaki, since 2-3 energy drops would make her somewhat like a crappy version of Ranulf, and dracoshields is a massive +4 def for her, while Sanaki's durability is never salvageable (lol @ 28 HP/10 def for 4-P), and would need 2-3 speedwings to be doubling (granted, if she doubles she's one rounding, but there's only so much you can do with a glass cannon).

The major reason why Lyre isn't comparable to Sanaki is because we're not retarded and we realize that Lyre sucking and consuming resources in part 3 does not come even close to overriding Lyre beating Sanaki, or at LEAST tying, when they both exist in part 4. We don't go "oh well since Sanaki doesn't even exist it doesn't matter what favoritism we're throwing on Lyre, even if it's 'minor'"!

You are seriously comparing Lethe's 12% bexp usage in 3-8 to giving Lyre 3 drops and 40% (maybe) of our bexp in 3-4 and another ~12% in 3-8? And you act like these last 3 paragraphs are actually relevant to anything?

Which brings me back to the original point; you can't say "let's give Lethe bexp in 3-8 or whatever and it's fine because Mak doesn't even exist".

We aren't saying it's fine because Mak doesn't exist. Heck, I already said you could even give Mak twice as much bexp if you want, but I notice you didn't even respond to that. You know what's fair to Mak if we give Lethe 2000 bexp? Giving Mak 2000 bexp. See the similarity? Well, we have a little more by 3-11, so that's why I earlier said to give him twice as much. Keep the %s similar. Not sure if his % would be higher than hers at that point, but maybe.

Except Nealuchi has canto, and doesn't untransform as fast as she does, and has like 123561235123 more avoid, and more def, and has wrath, and hell may even have a support with Leanne by 2-E (according to the support data Vincent got, it's an FF 01 support, which for reference is the same as Ike x Soren, which is ridiculously fast, and since Nealuchi and Leanne have 2-P and 2-2 it's much easier to get than, say, Lethe x Mordy, which only has 2-2) which is now +1 att and def when she's in range.

Are you seriously trying to suggest Lethe is better than Nealuchi in part 2?

I don't think he's saying better. Just that they are statistically rather similar, and that using Lethe to do things rather than Nealuchi is not detrimental. Basically, we can build Lethe up a little just fine.

Oh, and I'm not sure if Leanne and Nealuchi get the chapter bonus for 2-2, though I suspect they do considering I think I remember having them supported in 2-E. And yeah, it's rather easy to build, especially with vigoring in 2-P and 2-2 as a booster. I wonder if I could manage C by 2-2 if it wasn't for the fact that the stupid game doesn't let you have access to them in the 2-2 base.

36 att stops 2HKOing by Ulki's joining chapter, pal. Energy drop gives him +4 att, which means he has a much greater reach on what he can 2HKO.

I'd rather give Ulki two levels of bexp than an energy drop. It's a lot, like 4 times as much as Lethe is taking, but oh the benefits. So a couple units go without bexp for a chapter or two. He isn't exactly tearing things up with 40 mt (41 mt by 3-11, or maybe 3-10 if you push it). He does more "tear"ing if you give him the bexp. kekeke. You can give another unit an energy drop this way.

HEY GUYS ULKI HAS UBER DURABILITY.

O W8, WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH HIS OFFENSE?

Well, it means that when he can actually be less likely to get hit by a crossbow once he reaches 2HKO, and that he can more easily run around wrathing everything if we wanted. Just get him hit while untransformed a couple of times and look out. He likely won't get hit even once. If he gets hit once while wrathing and becomes OHKO, then at that point we have to heal him. He can use a herb and still be wrathing, but if we don't want him to waste turns he'd get healed, and not be wrathing anymore. Anyway, there are ways to make use of his Janaff support possibility that make things work better than without, even a measly 8 avo can make "not getting hit much" to "Oh, I think I remember him getting hit once 2 or 3 maps ago, maybe"

and is only 1 level away from a fucking Satori sign.

2

Yep, occasionally some people (me included) make a mistake. I'm glad you didn't go overboard with the correcting though.

Which sucks for him because "lolbexp" is not going to be enough to get him to level 30, since that's going to be a huge chunk of BEXP. Most likely he can't even think of reaching level 30 until early part 4.

Well, Vykan seemed to have thought it was okay. I still think it's less costly than an energy drop, since the bexp gets replenished and a unit or two might go without for a bit. Giving Ulki That energy drop means another unit will never get it and it doesn't even benefit him anymore by 3-E or so when we are more willing to finally pay for the bexp.

Of course at this point I know someone is going to tell me, "BUT SMASH EVERYONE IS DISAGREEING WITH YOU, THEREFORE YOU'RE WRONG." And frankly, I don't give a shit if people like narga or int disagree with me. I'm making these posts for the other people like Raven and Jonathan. If I can convince them, then I'll have accomplished my mission.

Well, that's pretty much what I said a while back while arguing with you about something else. I'll never convince you, since you are always "right", but if I could convince someone else then it's good. So I don't really see an issue with you continuing to argue when you are the only one. And I know you don't care if Int or I disagree with you. You didn't mention pretty boi wolf, though. Does that mean it pains you that he disagrees with you?

Besides, I don't see anything from you to validate an 11 unit gap plus a tier gap, nor a comment from you on what the placement would be if Lethe didn't have the gauge to worry about. See, while that might seem tangential, the point is that it helps me to know just how bad you think the gauge issue is.

Not like appeal to popularity means anything anyway. When Reikken first started his "jeigans like Titania leeching exp is a load of crap" arguments, didn't everyone disagree with him until we realized he was right?

Well, if you want to get through the thing quickly within turn limits, then yeah she's good. I don't think people were in favour of that idea at first. I guess people just wanted to be able to focus on training their other units first, and if Titania kills nothing at the beginning of PoR then obviously the other units get more exp. With efficiency in mind, plus the fact the other units will get enough exp anyway (though in some games you'll need to cut back on the number of other units), the leeching argument becomes less relevant. Even irrelevant in some cases.

BTW, if you actually think Lethe's performance in part 3 after getting BEXP'd a speed level AND getting S-strike is somehow positive, or fuck even neutral, here's a funny comparison. You said it's like 3-8 or something.

20/18 Shinon, A Gatrie, crossbow

28.0 att, 26.0 AS, 199.5 hit, 25.0 crit - - 91.5 avo, 45.0 HP, 25.25 def, 18.0 res, 16.5 critavo

I'll be nice to Lethe and assume she got a str/spd/def level up from her BEXP (rofl @ that happening).

Lethe, A Mordy, S-strike

35.0 att, 26.0 AS, 202.0 hit, 13.0 crit - - 85.0 avo, 51.0 HP, 22.0 def, 22.0 res, 18.0 critavo

Lethe has 7 more att (respectable), but Shinon has 12 crit (not better than 7 att, but at least worth mentioning).

Shinon has a bit better durability.

And then Lethe has to worry about a transformation gauge, AND Shinon is countering 2-range.

And this is basically Lethe's best case scenario, where she just got S-strike (in 3-4 and 3-7 she definitely won't have S-strike, which is -5 att, at which point the comparison becomes a total joke and Shinon aizenstomps), AND somehow got the best level up possible with BEXP, AND got A Mordy (pretty hard to do, since I only see a C at 3-4 base, and then maybe a B at 3-8 base. A B instead of an A, btw, would be -1 att and def), AND before Shinon promotes and gets more durability and more crit/mastery (although I suppose by the time he does promotes we're at 3-11 so we can drop all comparisons between Lethe and other GMs and just focus on Mak vs Lethe).

Well, you are being a little nice to Lethe with str and A for 3-8, considering it takes 9 adjacents (or 8 + 1 shove) in 3-4 with Mordy to achieve B for 3-7, and another 9 in 3-7 for A by 3-8. Much easier to get levels over 2 chapters, considering it drops the number of necessary adjacents to like 5 (or 4 + 1 shove) and you get twice as many turns over which to do it.

CLEARLY Lethe is a positive even after receiving BEXP/extra attacks/support abuse with Mordy/whatever (note that Shinon received absolutely nothing), but Shinon with a crossbow? THAT SHIT WILL NOT STAND. BOTTOM TIER NAO.

Sorry, you don't need to beat what shinon is doing to be a net positive. Really, if she can do enough that just about anyone can finish off the enemy, she's fine. It's better if you do enough that units like Neph won't face counters, but even so she's fine. Before S strike it's a little more hairy, so she's probably slightly negative there, but then she has 3-8 and 3-10 where she's going to be at least slightly positive. It should overall make a net positive, though maybe just even. Again, the point is that she's looking at an 11 unit difference and a tier.

Of course, you did say that Mak and Danved should be in the same tier, so should Mak drop or Danved rise?

Further, I'd kind of like to see Lethe > Renning and Mak above or below Vika. Even if Renning has to go down for Lethe to accomplish the task. How against that are you? (I'm assuming you might be against it, so I'm just asking by how much.)

Basically what Cynthia said though, I think that generally sums it up. More people can find ways to function endgame, which would downplay some endgame guys.

Gatrie with a brave axe 3RKO's auras, with the Wishblade Gatrie 4RKO's auras. Level 13 Stefan with the brave sword 3RKO's Auras. With the Vague Katti, Stefan 3RKO's Auras. Not needing a brave weapon to 3RKO > needing a brave weapon to 3RKO.

I'm not sure not needing is greater than needing at this point. It depends on team layout, really. In all, probably it's slightly better to not need one.

Besides, all you really said was Gatrie > Stefan, which is common knowledge.

I think the idea is that while Gatrie is indeed better overall than Stefan, some might be willing to bring Stefan to endgame rather than Gatrie simply because of the speed caps. As such, Stefan's existence is more useful since he's more likely to go. The counter that Pretty Boi Wolf is trying to bring up is that this should in fact not be the case. In other words, add more units to the pile of units that are better than Stefan for 4-E itself, which would downplay Stefan's overall worth since he's even less likely to go to endgame.

@Lord Raven, sadly 33 AS is insufficient even with Nasir, since the auras have 35 speed).

I think you only need like 33 AS with nasir's help to double the spirits.

Oops again. Well, 29 speed is all that's needed with Nasir to double spirits themselves. I saw 33 and assumed auras since 33 is closer to the needed speed to double auras with Nasir than it is to double spirits with Nasir. Still, my mistake.

Wtf's the debate about now?

Also, I love this irony.

Except my post is supposed to be read with all three paragraphs in mind, not taking each paragraph separately and then countering them like that, since that's taking them out of context.

I only feel like responding to a few things, since narga makes stupidly long walls of texts that are usually irrelevant to the debate anyway.

Looks like someone needs to read their own posts.

It's smash, we can't expect consistency where he is concerned. The fact that 2 of his 3 paragraphs were completely irrelevant to what I was trying to say the other time and he whined about me ignoring it should not make us expect him to actually respond to an entire post for once in his life. The only time he's likely to respond to most or all of a post that has good counters to what he's saying is in the debate forum where he knows the judges will nail him for it if he tries ignoring stuff there. Here however he hopes that if he responds only to the weaker arguments people make that everyone else will forget about the stronger arguments that were ignored.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

Anyways, as for the decided changes. It's been agreed that Tanith needs to drop to at least Lower Mid,

Eh? By who? You and smash? I hardly call that a "decided" change. I said it before, but I have always seen Tanith as a Mid tier character, not Lower Mid.

and I say she should fall below Lucia. Lucia's got a chapter's positive, and returns with basically the same problem Tanith starts with anyways. On the other hand though, a talisman and BEXP can make Lucia perform like a superior Zihark with natural Parity, while on the other hand it is still rather troublesome to get Tanith to 34 AS, discouraging the use of bothering to train her. We may have to give Lucia more BEXP than Tanith would, but she benefits far greater after a talisman than Tanith would from a Secret Book (3 Str, Luck and Def>2Str, 2 Speed and 3Def).

Lucia w/favoritism > Tanith without. I like it.

And no, a Secret Book doesn't cover it. I don't know why we'd give her a Secret Book at all.

On top of that, Lucia's got every option to choose from for a final weapon, be it Alondite, Vague Katti, or better off with the Brave Sword. Tanith's 3rd tier cap forbids her from being able to utilize the Brave Lance to 2RKO auras, Lucia's got wyrmslayers. Tanith even after BEXP Skilled does not gain 34 AS until level 20/15. Hell, Tanith needs 3 levels and a crown just to stop sucking.

1. Wishblade

2. Tanith can use Wyrmslayers

3. Lucia needs a Talisman and mountains of BEXP to stop sucking.

4. 20/15 by 4-E-4 shouldn't be too difficult, though it might require a chapter of Paragon, but Lucia needs that for like 2-3 maps anyway.

Basically it's Lucia's 1 net positive chapter and a salvageable part 4 compared to Tanith needing to be trained up anyways to be not quite as good, but with flight.

What about the part where Tanith beats Lucia in every parameter except Spd and Skl? And has an easier time using her affinity? And has rofl30% higher Str growth, meaning she'll actually be able to damage stuff without relying on crit.

[Narga_Rocks]

Just like to say first that I think I agree with Red Fox of Fire here, but I'll clear up something.

And no, a Secret Book doesn't cover it. I don't know why we'd give her a Secret Book at all.

Well, the secret book is really for the same reason as the talisman. He gave both characters massive amounts of bexp but before the bexp he gave Lucia the talisman to force more stats into other areas with the bexp. The secret book is so that the bexp going to Tanith is not going into skl after the first level and so the other three can be spread among other areas. For example, spd is now tied for second instead of tied for third, meaning Tanith has a better shot at decent speed than before. eg: he gave her 28 speed at 20/1 rather than 26.6 speed, thanks in part to the secret book. That's why he's suggesting that a secret book is similar to the talisman. Anyway, since neither is likely to get that kind of bexp I'm not sure it means much, but that's what I think he was going for.

[Zkirsche]

Let's not forget that Flying utility is awesome, especially in 3-11 and 4-3. Lucia has no such utility in part 4.

[grandjackal]

Eh? By who? You and smash? I hardly call that a "decided" change. I said it before, but I have always seen Tanith as a Mid tier character, not Lower Mid.

Could have sworn others brought it up...

Lucia w/favoritism > Tanith without. I like it.

Without favoritism, she's doing terribly. She needs 3 levels AND a crown otherwise to get where she needs otherwise. BEXP is more resources, but less effort.

Then realize without this method, Tanith went from being semi-useful endgame to having absolutely no business going there. She'd have eaten up those resources just to be slightly better pre-endgame part 4.

And no, a Secret Book doesn't cover it. I don't know why we'd give her a Secret Book at all.

What Narga said.

1. Wishblade

What about it? She's not doubling anything but dragons endgame, which Lucia can do as well (putting various use to other skills I might add). She's not doubling spirits without Nasir (of which various problems arise, like how he's keeping around her JUST to attack spirits?). I HOPE you aren't saying it's purely for Auras. Let's say she's maxed strength at 32. This wold make her Might 54. Auras have 90 HP and 30 Def.

24 Damage. Since no way in hell she's doubling unless you want to go and give her a speedwing on top of this entire mess...

2. Tanith can use Wyrmslayers

Forgot they could use swords ;;>>

3. Lucia needs a Talisman and mountains of BEXP to stop sucking.

Tanith needs a skill book and generally the same BEXP, OR 3 unwarrented levels with her sucky starting combat and a fucking Crown to be good for a bit, then go right back to sucking anyways.

4. 20/15 by 4-E-4 shouldn't be too difficult, though it might require a chapter of Paragon, but Lucia needs that for like 2-3 maps anyway.

Good thing Lucia's forced on exp heavy maps with it's large numbers and laguz.

What about the part where Tanith beats Lucia in every parameter except Spd and Skl? And has an easier time using her affinity? And has rofl30% higher Str growth, meaning she'll actually be able to damage stuff without relying on crit.

Speed being a key factor between them, as Tanith's strength cannot make up for it even eventually, thanks to her shitstorm cap for endgame. Her offense significantly drops in endgame where she can't even double the slowest general. Then when the spirits come along, she's absolutely screwed. Auras it's terrible. Tanith can't put the brave lance or the wishblade to good use there. Lucia on the other hand actually COULD take even the weak-end Brave Sword to 2RKO the auras.

Tanith would basically be better on the routes, but as shown, Lucia can be better than Zihark given equal resources. Lucia's not exactly doing terribly.

As for affinity, it's always a major problem to support when you're a flier. Always out and about, only company most likely being other fliers. Her best bet happens to be LoSigrun. Lucia has a quick one with Elincia, but there is another thought. Calill's pretty decent on Lucia's route thanks to magic slayer effect on the laguz. Give them both a slight offense boost and a pretty thick avoid boost. How could they not love it? On top of that, this is a friendship to last, as there's actually a reason to bringing Calill to endgame, as she's good there.

You can pick your friends, you can pick your nose...

[Florete]

Just like to say first that I think I agree with Red Fox of Fire here, but I'll clear up something.

And no, a Secret Book doesn't cover it. I don't know why we'd give her a Secret Book at all.

Well, the secret book is really for the same reason as the talisman. He gave both characters massive amounts of bexp but before the bexp he gave Lucia the talisman to force more stats into other areas with the bexp. The secret book is so that the bexp going to Tanith is not going into skl after the first level and so the other three can be spread among other areas. For example, spd is now tied for second instead of tied for third, meaning Tanith has a better shot at decent speed than before. eg: he gave her 28 speed at 20/1 rather than 26.6 speed, thanks in part to the secret book. That's why he's suggesting that a secret book is similar to the talisman. Anyway, since neither is likely to get that kind of bexp I'm not sure it means much, but that's what I think he was going for.

Oh. Well, his comparison was off anyway, and this is why...

Tanith's going to be a lot more ready for Part 4 though, IE she should very close to promotion while Lucia's 20/14.

Tanith needs 5 levels to promote, and has 2 chapters before part 4 to do it, where she is statistically incredibly sub-par. You're better off just saving yourself the effort and just BEXP steroiding the both.

Except Tanith isn't that bad. She's generally 2 rounding in 3-11, and if she's lucky enough to get a Spd up, she can be one rounding. How is that sub-par?

Tanith would need a skill book and 4 levels of BEXP to get to 20 where you can inject another, crown, or just let her fight to earn her promotion. Lucia had some training in part 2 and could have gotten the boss kill. She would need at worst maybe 4 1/2 levels of BEXP and a Talisman before the same results occur.

Lucia could get the boss kill, but so could Nephenee, Brom, or Mordecai, all 3 of whom I'd say are better for it due to being around after 2-2.

In the end, we'd get this.

BEXP Lucia with Talisman 20/1-44 HP, 24 Str, 15 Mag, 32 Skill, 32 Speed, 24 Luck, 20 Def, 21 Res -Do keep in mind that Zihark can't be this good this soon in part 4.

BEXP Tanith20/1- 39 HP, 27 Str, 14 Magic, 26 Skill, 28 Speed, 22 Luck, 25 Def, 24 Res.

Except that's not accurate. For example, how does Lucia have 20 Def? It's her lowest growth, so BEXP never prioritizes it, and she'd need it 3 times to have 20 by 20/1. The process is more like this, assuming a Talisman:

Level #1 and 2: HP, Spd, and Skl. HP is now capped.

Level #3: Skl, Spd, and most likely Luck. Skl and Spd now capped.

Level #4-6 (the rest of them until 20): Pretty much any 3 of Luck, Str, Mag, and Def, prioritized in that order. So she'll probably get Luck on all 3, and then some combination of the others. Best case scenario gives her +3 Str and Def, but that's unlikely seeing as Str is 25%, Mag is 20%, and Def is 15%. There's really no way to predict how it turns out, but the most likely scenario is probably +3 Str and Mag, meaning she'll only have 17 Def after promotion, which, for comparison, is lower than Tanith's base.

It's more unpredictable for Secret Book Tanith. Her first level will get Skl for the cap, Str, and either Spd or Def. Regardless, her next 2 are likely Str, Spd, and Def, but with possible Luck or HP, and then the last level depends on if she's gotten 3 Def and capped it or not. But then Tanith also should have leveled up in the map since she has 2 maps before part 4 where she can actually get decent CEXP and there are 3 Paragons. Your stats for Tanith aren't exactly inaccurate, it's just that BEXP for is more unpredictable.

Lucia has a 5 HP, 16 ACC lead, 12 Avoid lead, 3+Swordmaster bonus crit lead while Tanith has a 3 Str and 5 Def lead.

Don't forget that any C for Tanith lowers the avoid lead to 4 at max. 5 def > anyway.

Both have similar defense, though the offensive lead for now goes to Tanith. However, this is pre-endgame and keep in mind how normally pain in the ass it would have been to train her normally with the GM. Another problem is that Tanith will still have trouble doubling endgame even basic units, considering with the 2 chapters they'd have, she'd need 3 levels to double even the slowest general.

Are you suggesting Tanith can't get 3 levels in experience rich chapters? Nice sandbag.

She'll have the strength to use the brave sword on the auras in case Alondite and Katti are taken.

Wtf? No she won't. Even with your BEXP stats, she'd only reach 28.75 Str by 20/20. That's barely better than Sothe, and we all know how awesome he is Endgame.

You could say "BEXP," but then it's the same problem as before with 4 growths being within 15% of each other, one being Magic.

She can use Alondite or the Katti themselves. Wyrmslayers for the dragons. Tempest blades. Everything is under the sky for swordsmen endgame.

It's awesome that both can use Swords. Tanith can't use the Alondite or Vague Katti, but Wishblade is better anyway.

Tanith on hte other hand doesn't have the speed to pull decent offense even earlier in endgame, much less once spirits and auras appear.

She needs ~30 spd for 4-E-1, which she reaches using your numbers at ~20/8. If she doesn't have that right away, she can probably get there within the map. She's borderline, but she'll usually have it.

She doesn't have the speed to use Nasir to double the auras,

She just needs 34 Spd. Are you suggesting she can't reach 20/16 by 4-E-5 with all the BEXP and Paragons to toss around?

nor (thanks to her cap) will she ever have the strength to utilize the Brave Lance for a similar effect.

Your point?

On top of that, Tanith has no real good support to bring to endgame. BEst bet is Sigrun, which is great again in pre-endgame, but bringing another failboat into endgame for boosts that will soon be negligeable is just unwise. On the other hand...

Marcia and Calill, or any CRK that was used. Who does Lucia have again? Elincia I suppose is her only viable option.