OMG it's a tier list

[Narga_Rocks]

*whimpers* Lyre is not the worst unit in the game...She can't be, Fiona gets ORKOd by everything, and and and and and...

And this would be why I said to Red Fox of Fire:

although if you convince enough people I kinda feel bad for Pretty Boi Wolf since he likes cats so much and I told him at least Lyre isn't actually being called the worst unit.

when she first brought up the Fiona > Lyre idea.

So, I guess my Nealuchi observation won't get any attention with that support moving too slow...

Well, he can get a C by 2-E, but is sadly unlikely to get a B for 4-P since 2-E has turns but Nealuchi is likely going to be busy doing something and the game doesn't seem to care about galdr or blessing where supports are concerned. I'm still hoping Leanne gets something even if Rafiel doesn't, but I won't find out until 2-E. 4 chapters (2-P to 2-3) just to find something out. Well, I could do it with Mordy, Lethe, Neph and Brom in 2-2 then I just have to beat 2-3 in addition.

Anyway, he has Fire so a B would mean +2 mt, +1 def, +5 hit. Not sure how much that saves him even if you keep them adjacent for 9 turns (or 7 adjacent and 3 shoves or something). Still, mt is mt. Base Nealuchi doubles almost the entire game, so that's 2 damage. But when you are pulling 27 mt in 4-P I'm not sure how much +2 mt actually helps anything. Then he's got a warp speed with Naesala but it's still a chore to get 5 adjacents and one shove in 10 turns in 4-P, so I'm not sure he'd actually get C Naesala in 4-3, though if you can pull it off something is better than nothing so Naesala would take it. Then do the same in 12 turns in 4-3 and they can have a B for 4-E-1, and I'm sure they'd both like the +2 mt there. The thing is, Nealuchi would need to hack the game and make a +10 mt support in order to be saved by supports at this point.

Let's look at his strike level:

There are 11 enemies in 2-P, and he can likely attack 7 times with a combo of attacking on turn 1 and 2, Leanne vigor in turn 2 and a revert, start attacking again on turn 4 until the end and I think with help from Leanne he can pull 7x2 wexp. 56 left, 2-2 has 7 turns and needs grassing or precious stone use and Leanne has more options. There's 25 enemies (28, but the reinforcements should not be met) so maybe he can pull 7 or 8, I don't know. Say 40 left. General with a silver greatlance plus two other armors gives him two untransformed tinks and 6HKOs the silver greatlance general and I think 5 hits the others, so that's a good 18 attacks there but it untransforms him to pull it off. I think it kills all 3 before he untransforms. That's an option. A few attacks after he waits to transform, maybe finds another general to tink or javelin user or something. Could pull a few more. It might be simple enough to get >50 wexp for Nealuchi in part 2, but 60 would be a little too high to aim.

He'll still take until 4-3 likely to pull S with a lot of work, and if he takes a C Naesala at this point that's 33 mt unless he got enough levels to get another str, in which case 35. That's being nice to him, and in 4-3 he still 4 hits warriors and most snipers, 4 hits half the halbs and 5 hits the rest, 3 hits the swordmasters, 3 hits the sages, 6 or 7 hits the dragonmasters, 2 hits half the bishops, 3 hits the rest. That's with 11x2 str and S strike and C Naesala. Let's not even try talking about 4-P and A strike. It's kinda sad, actually.

Then there is the long road to SS. I don't even know if he can ever pull it off. He'd definitely need us to rout 4-E-2 instead of let Ike finish it early. Then rout 4-E-3 instead of killing Deg asap. Then rout 4-E-4 instead of rushing the boss. He'd have a gem to help him stay transformed, and if you push it a bit he'd have A Naesala by 4-E-2. Still, let's give him level 28 to start 4-E-1 and 24 + 12 + 2 = 38 mt. Generals have 30 to 32 def and 50 to 52 hp. Doesn't look good again. Still, that's enough to finish a kill for anything that 3HKOs with about 6 extra. He gets countered doing it, and only has +2 mt, +5 hit, +5 avo from supports so with level 28 and 109 + 15 + 5 = 129 avo and 56hp/24def he's mostly facing 20 to 30 listed hit for 46 mt on average from the generals, so he is 3HKOd at low hit rates. Getting countered while having that isn't so bad, really. He's useless on the corner tile ones, though. Ena is difficult to use effectively here and requires lots of strategy to prevent her from getting attacked while still making good use of her, so I wouldn't generally consider him with blood tide, though it does mean 43 mt and 4 or 5 hitting. Anyway, he's quite bad in 4-P, and not detrimental in 4-3 and 4-E-1.

In 4-E-2 he's possibly level 30 now (114 + 15 + 8 = 137 avo and 57 hp / 26 def), so give him 13x2 = 26 str and Tear. He gets 78 + 12 + 3 = 93 mt with Tear, so he's OHKO with Tear on everything. With 42 speed he's also pulling a 1 - (.58 x .58) chance of one rounding, and taking a counter means 10 to 30 listed hit from all but swordmasters and the boss, so again not a problem. He has a > 64% chance of ORKOing (not being more specific without actually calculating) and a 42% chance of not even facing a counter. At this point I think I'd finally say he's doing good for us. He's rather durable, if Naesala doesn't have SS strike yet then the mt might be helping (didn't check) and Naesala has an A faster than he's likely to get with anyone else. Or at least it takes far far more effort for Naesala to reach an A with anyone else by 4-E-2 than with Naesala. Sadly whites are not OHKOd by a tear so it takes two hits, and sadly they have 180 hit and 56 mt vs. 24 res and maybe 58 hp. So he's 2HKOd at ~40 listed hit but with Tear he one rounds. For reds, with a tear he does ~62 damage in one tear + one normal hit (93 mt and 41 mt vs. 36 def) so he needs two tears to kill reds. Also he does a sad 10 damage when he doesn't tear at all.

Still, he's not detrimental here either. I'd have to say he's really bad in 4-P, somewhat average in 4-3 and 4-E-1, pretty good in 4-E-2, a bit below average in 4-E-3, and if he has SS for 4-E-4 he's a bit above average. He doubles all the spirits, 2RKOs the ones on cover tiles just like everyone else, ORKOs the ones that aren't (46 mt with SS and Naesala) and more importantly has a huge mastery activation for the ones on cover tiles and OHKOs them with Tear. Most action is on player phase anyway so his lack of enemy phase makes him a target, but 34 res on a wardwood also means he doesn't actually care much. Also 30 to 40 listed hit means he can get attacked by a fair number of them and still be fine. Then with 46 mt in 4-E-5 he's doing 32 damage to wardwood tile auras, can strap on parity and do the same to cover tile ones, and with blood tide does 42 damage to wardwood tile auras. He's doing better than most damagewise, though with low skl it means 197 hit (13 skl at lvl 32 and 32 lck means 52 + 32 + 15 + 8 + 90) vs. 135 avo and a 62% hit rate (72 with blood tide, 82 with two blood tides and has canto). While he does more than anyone that doesn't double, he's not exactly got a reliable hit rate. He's pulling 64% with parity, since he loses 23 hit and the aura loses 25 avo. Anyone with an SS weapon is already pulling 10 hit or more above him with 30 skl and 24 lck (and a +hit support like Neal has) because his weapon is 90 hit and an SS weapon is 100 or more (most are, anyway). As skl rises and lck rises the other units are even more reliable, culminating with 40 skl 30+ lck units like Mia and royals, and Ike comes close to 25 lck (well, depending on how tier 2 goes bexpwise, 25 might be a little high). Anyway, I think I'll give Nealuchi a bit below average in 4-E-5.

One really bad, two somewhat averages, one pretty good, one a bit below average, one above average, one a bit below average. 4-E-4 cancels the two where he's only a bit below, 4-E-2 does not cancel 4-P (length issues, and he's more below in one than above in the other anyway), and 4-3 and 4-E-1 are average anyway.

Really, from what I can see overall in part 4 he's a bit below average for part 4 as a whole.

Trying to get him to mid would basically require his part 2 goodness to cover his 4-P badness. I don't think Leanne's 1mt, 1def, and his 3 hit is going to matter much for the 4-P badness. I'm not sure his part 2 is good enough. Still, if you want to try to argue him above some people you could try. Maybe Leo or Ed or something. Nealuchi is more redeemable than Tormod, so depending on the weight of part 4 for both you could try to come up with something. However, considering part 4 shouldn't really hold too much weight for two characters that are basically use and drop, I don't know if it could work. If you can make Nealuchi's part 2 > Tormod's part 1, then with Nealuchi's more redeemable part 4 than Tormod's you might be able to pull it off. Or depending on the weight of their part 4, Neal's part 2 might just need to be close to Tormod's part 1. Still, 4-P is a major hurdle, but Tormod's got a giant hurdle I like to call "16 levels away from tier 3, or the weight of the crown in the inventory until 4-E-1 or 2 and at least 9 levels away from crowning."

Just thought I'd give Nealuchi more attention than I have before. If I messed anything up, oh well, I haven't used him seriously outside of part 2 ever anyway nor have I tried to use him too much in 2-2, so it shouldn't be held against me.

Edit: If only Tear did more than halve speed for one turn I'd say average for 4-E-3. Like, if it's side effect was like corona the dragons would be incapable of hitting anything so they'd be like kittens. Or sleep, or stun, even savage and the skill thing would at least do something. ~63 avo does not exactly make me worry about missing so halving speed means nothing when everyone doubles anyway. The only thing it means is that Sanaki could now double with a range tome, but considering Nealuchi would've just tear'd something, whites are dead and Reds have 14 hp remaining and 20 res. Base level Sanaki with any ranged tome is killing that thing rather easily. The speed loss means zilch.

Edit2: Since I completely forgot about his wrath,

level 22: <= 15hp, and 21 def, 21 res (C Leanne in 4-P)

level 25: <=16hp, and 22 def, 21 res (C Naesala in 4-3) (yeah, I know 10.75 isn't really going to make 21)

level 28: <=16hp, and 24 def, 23 res (yeah, I know 11.5 isn't really 23)

level 30: <=17hp, and 26 def, 24 res.

level 32: <=17hp, and 26 def, 25 res. (yeah, I know 12.5 isn't really 25)

So, he has wrath, sure, but it takes anywhere from 36 mt to 43 mt minimum depending on what level he is and which map to OHKO him at 10 to 40 % hit rates (depending on the map and which enemy). This could actually save him a little in 4-P where so many enemies have ~32 mt, though you'd still have to be careful and he's not 4HKOing much anyway. From 4-3 on, so many units have the requisite mt that there are few enemies it's safe to use on. So at this point, to be safe his wrathing is mostly cut down to when he's got injured enough to be 2HKOd, stick him in front of precisely one enemy, no others can be in range, get Neal attacked, hope he gets hit, then hope he wrathcrits, then heal him. Aside from enemies with low mt, I'm not seeing anything else it's safe to let him attack on player phase while in wrath range. Well, snipers without crossbow type weapons I guess. Those are good.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Zkirsche]

Is Fiona really being put up because of supports? Really? It's not like Mist doesn't appreciate the durability and can't use physics to heal people from accross the map. Then there's Rhys, who we can also use. Mist x Lyre isn't that bad.

So using Your level of Fiona being 20/6 and my Lyre being level 22. Fiona gets a seraph robe, Lyre gets an energy drop. Lyre also has S strike. So here's the comparison, without authority:

20/6 Fiona with a forged silver lane, 'A' Jill: 41 HP, 33 Atk, 21 AS, 88 Avo, 20 Def, 16 Res

22 Lyre, 'S' strike, 'A' Mist: 49.5 HP, 37 Atk, 28-30 AS, 82.5-86.5, 19 Def, 21-23 Res

In order for Fiona to win this, you'd really have to overhype 1-6 avo and 1 def. Giving Lyre 4 levels (~9 kills) and Fiona 9 levels (~9 kills), we get this:

20/15 Fiona, same weapons + support: 45 HP, 37 Atk, 24 AS, 99 Avo, 24 Def, 20 Res

26 Lyre, 'S' Strike, 'A' Mist: 51.5 HP, 39 Atk, 34 AS, 96.5 Avo, 21 Def, 25 Res

Lyre wins offence by a large margin (Doubling vs not doubling), and durably it's close. 2.5 avo is pathetic and unnecessary, but mages are uncommon. So it's 3 Def vs 6.5 HP. I'd say that's a tie. Giving Lyre another 4 levels (~10 kills) and Fiona 9 levels (~10 kills) we get this:

Level 20/20/4 Fiona, same weapons + support: 53 HP, 43 Atk, 28 AS, 126 Avo, 29 Def, 25 Res, 12% Sol (22.56% when doubling)

30 Lyre, S/SS strike, 'A' Mist: 53.5 HP, 41-43/46-48 Atk, 38 AS, 121.5 Avo, 23 Def, 27 Res, 38% Rend (62.56% when doubling)

It now just comes down to attack vs defence. Lyre crushes Fiona in offence. Even with S strike, she can double the entire map. Fiona can only double lolsages and lolbishops. With SS strike, not impossible by now, Lyre has an Atk lead. Add this to her massive rend% and Lyre just crushes Fiona offensively. O admit Fiona beats Lyre defensively, but not Soren-compared-to-Gatrie like. More like Soren-compared-to-Oscar like.

The rest of the maps are just lol, I mean, Fiona's def lead is no where near enougth to not get 3RKO'ed by dragons, and they'll have similar res against spirits, which both ORKO anyway.

The only reason these two are comparable in part 4 is because of Lyre's gauge, which is fixed by the mountains of olivi grasses you have by this point and laguz gems.

Plus, Fiona only has 22 Atk wit ha forged iron lance in 3-6, meaning she 25-26RKO's the most common enemy on the map. In comparison, 18/1 Nolan with tarvos has 35 Atk - so he's 4RKO'ing. 20/5 Zihark with a brave sword has 27 Atk/24 AS. So he's 2RKOing them. 18/1 Jill with a brave axe 5RKO's them. So that means that Fiona is ~6 times as worse offensively as your main fighters. You said Lyre 4RKO's? Well, that's at worst 4 times as worse as everyone else. However, sicne some 2RKO, I'd say she's only 3 times as worse.

So Lyre being better comparitively to her team and being better than Fiona when they're both around < giving a DB unit an earth support when Lyre gives a GM unit a thunder support? No.

Lyre > Fiona.

[Florete]

Lyre wins offence by a large margin (Doubling vs not doubling), and durably it's close. 2.5 avo is pathetic and unnecessary, but mages are uncommon. So it's 3 Def vs 6.5 HP. I'd say that's a tie. Giving Lyre another 4 levels (~10 kills) and Fiona 9 levels (~10 kills) we get this:

I know giving them the same number of kills sounds fair in theory, but it isn't. Again, Lyre will not always be able to fight due to gauge issues.

Level 20/20/4 Fiona, same weapons + support: 53 HP, 43 Atk, 28 AS, 126 Avo, 29 Def, 25 Res, 12% Sol (22.56% when doubling)

30 Lyre, S/SS strike, 'A' Mist: 53.5 HP, 41-43/46-48 Atk, 38 AS, 121.5 Avo, 23 Def, 27 Res, 38% Rend (62.56% when doubling)

Level 30? You do realize that's like 20/20/20ing a Beorc unit, right? Even with Paragon that's too high unless you're dumping BEXP one her, but then she loses out on precious Str because it's her 5th highest growth and nothing caps until 30. And if Lyre supports Mist, she won't even go to 4-5's experience mine. And since this is an Endgame comparison, Fiona's level is too low, especially if Lyre is that high.

With SS strike, not impossible by now,

Not impossible, but Narga already explained why it's actually quite tough in a way I hadn't thought of. Even if she doubles, since she's being fed kills she'll likely only attack once. SS Strike by 4-E is tough for Ranulf and the Hawks, no way in hell is Lyre getting it so soon.

The only reason these two are comparable in part 4 is because of Lyre's gauge, which is fixed by the mountains of olivi grasses you have by this point and laguz gems.

Wrong. Helped, not fixed. Olivi Grass doesn't solve her transformation issues completely, only mitigates them. She'll still lose constant player phases and have to be careful on enemy phases.

Plus, Fiona only has 22 Atk wit ha forged iron lance in 3-6, meaning she 25-26RKO's the most common enemy on the map. In comparison, 18/1 Nolan with tarvos has 35 Atk - so he's 4RKO'ing. 20/5 Zihark with a brave sword has 27 Atk/24 AS. So he's 2RKOing them. 18/1 Jill with a brave axe 5RKO's them. So that means that Fiona is ~6 times as worse offensively as your main fighters. You said Lyre 4RKO's? Well, that's at worst 4 times as worse as everyone else. However, sicne some 2RKO, I'd say she's only 3 times as worse.

I asked a while ago what level you were putting her at and I don't think you ever answered. In any case, Fiona can take a stronger forge where needed and will still be leveling rather fast.

So Lyre being better comparitively to her team and being better than Fiona when they're both around < giving a DB unit an earth support when Lyre gives a GM unit a thunder support? No.

The people Lyre is likely to support don't really care though, while DB members most definitely do. Mist appears to be the one you want to go with, but then your levels for Lyre become absurdly high, and Mist might not even go to endgame because someone Elincia beats her in every way. At least a character like Jill is pretty likely going to endgame.

Also, there are the other advantages like range, quicker mastery access, and not booting out someone else for 60% of her pre-part 4 existence, which means Fiona at least isn't preventing someone actually good from being on the field while Lyre still is.

[Narga_Rocks]

Lyre wins offence by a large margin (Doubling vs not doubling), and durably it's close. 2.5 avo is pathetic and unnecessary, but mages are uncommon. So it's 3 Def vs 6.5 HP. I'd say that's a tie. Giving Lyre another 4 levels (~10 kills) and Fiona 9 levels (~10 kills) we get this:

I know giving them the same number of kills sounds fair in theory, but it isn't. Again, Lyre will not always be able to fight due to gauge issues.

I think I'll expand on that since playing with gauge is fun.

Up until the gems I've already said to feed kills she needs player phase attacks, and even with reverting she's pulling 6 player phase attacks in 10 turns. She's looking at 6 kills and 2 non-kills at most, unless we let her abuse the herons all the time (no canto and other units with much better offence). I'm not exactly seeing how she pulls off 9 kills in 4-P/1/2 and 4-3/4/5 either. Even 4-3 with it's 12 turns gives her 7 or 8. We have some stones so she's maybe used one or two over time (other laguz also want them) so maybe

30 (turn 1)

25, attack, 21 (turn 2)

16, attack, 12 (turn 3)

7, revert, grass (turn 4)

30, attack, 26 (turn 5)

21, attack, 17 (turn 6) (possible heron vigor or enemy phase attack)

12/8, revert, grass (turn 7)

30, attack, 26 (turn 8)

21, attack, 17 (turn 9) (possible heron vigor or enemy phase attack)

12/8 gauge on turn 10.

On 10 turn maps, one more attack.

On 4-3,

12/8, revert, grass (turn 10)

30, attack, 26

21, attack.

So even with a stone, she's pulling 7 attacks on a 10 turn map and 8 attacks on a 12 turn map. Then she has the option of 2 enemy phase hits along the way (mt low enough she's probably not killing because anything weak enough might run away.)

It is theoretically possible for her to get 9 kills in 4-P and 10 kills in 4-3 if you set up 3 kills for her in turns 5 and 6 combined, and 3 kills for her in turns 8 and 9 combined and let Leanne vigor on the turn in which 2 kills are set up for her. Then same deal in 4-3. She also must use stones in 4-P and 4-3.

Anything short of this ^ setup and Lyre is not getting 9 and 10 kills. It is simply not possible without going over the turn limit. She's taking a stone from others, she's making Leanne come to her (no canto and Leanne only has axis vigors) and making it harder for others to get vigoring on 4 turns in two chapters (maybe not so bad?) and if even once it is not possible to find her a kill she's basically not getting the 9/10 kills that map.

Level 20/20/4 Fiona, same weapons + support: 53 HP, 43 Atk, 28 AS, 126 Avo, 29 Def, 25 Res, 12% Sol (22.56% when doubling)

30 Lyre, S/SS strike, 'A' Mist: 53.5 HP, 41-43/46-48 Atk, 38 AS, 121.5 Avo, 23 Def, 27 Res, 38% Rend (62.56% when doubling)

Level 30? You do realize that's like 20/20/20ing a Beorc unit, right? Even with Paragon that's too high unless you're dumping BEXP one her, but then she loses out on precious Str because it's her 5th highest growth and nothing caps until 30. And if Lyre supports Mist, she won't even go to 4-5's experience mine. And since this is an Endgame comparison, Fiona's level is too low, especially if Lyre is that high.

Not quite sure what it would take to pull level 30, but I'm thinking 4-E-2 at the earliest. With paragon, what does it take to get those two levels while basically being 20/20/16 and 20/20/18? Also, yeah how did Fiona not gain a level in 4-E-1? That's odd. If Lyre can pull 2 levels, I'm thinking Fiona would pull quite a number.

With SS strike, not impossible by now,

Not impossible, but Narga already explained why it's actually quite tough in a way I hadn't thought of. Even if she doubles, since she's being fed kills she'll likely only attack once. SS Strike by 4-E is tough for Ranulf and the Hawks, no way in hell is Lyre getting it so soon.

Yeah, with the 6 kills 2 non-kills I did in another post and assuming 3 of the fed kills have little enough hit points remaining for a OHKO, 13 wexp per map is S strike during 3-E (5 wexp into 3-E, 8 more towards SS) and 26 more wexp in 4-P/1/2/3/4/5, so that's only 34/80. She needs 46 wexp in 4-E-1 to manage SS for 4-E-2. aka: not happening. Even with gems, based on chapter length and stuff like that, I'm having a hard time seeing SS before 4-E-4, maybe never. If anything happens to delay her gauge building, not good. If more fed kills are also OHKOs, I'm not seeing SS ever.

I asked a while ago what level you were putting her at and I don't think you ever answered. In any case, Fiona can take a stronger forge where needed and will still be leveling rather fast.

Yeah, I'd like to know why she doesn't get a steel lance forge. Or how 20 def tigers are the majority of the map when ~half the map is cats and some of the tigers only have 18 def.

I'd just like to say, though, once Lyre reaches level 30 the offensive comparison becomes pretty one sided. Rend is 5x strength. Sol is 3x damage and activates at skill/2 (and Fiona's skill is not so great). Lyre needs 20 str and S strike to OHKO a red dragon with rend. She'd have 33 mt and tink off the red dragon when she doesn't rend, sure, but when she rends.... Anyway, if she has 40 spd by now, and she should, then she has a 64% chance to rend on neutral bio, 51% chance to rend on worst, 75% chance to rend on best. She should have a lot more than 20 str by level 30, so she won't tink, especially with the drop she nabbed earlier. (I only mention worst and best bios because Lyre's bio is like Heather. It can swap from best to worst multiple times in one map and as such shouldn't be ignored. Basically, bless doesn't really do much for her, too.) The only thing that saves Fiona is that rend is likely coming just in time for dragons, and for 4-E-4 and 4-E-5 Lyre still misses turn 1 and the auras have mantle anyway, so it mostly matters for dragons.

If she can't hit level 30 for the dragon chapter, it no longer matters as much, but rend is nasty. The preventing enemy from moving for one turn thing is a joke when no cat is likely to be lower than 20 str at level 30 and 20 str with S strike OHKOs the strongest mantleless enemy in the entire game. I don't think 2 range quite makes up for that, not when Fiona is 2RKOd by dragons anyway. Though there are cover/wardwood tiles and I think that makes it 3RKOd.

[Florete]

And there's also the obligatory BEXP point. If Fiona can reach 20/14-16 by the end of 4-2 (shouldn't be too difficult with Paragon) she can BEXP'd up to significantly increase her Str, Skl, and Luck. We can BEXP Lyre also, for some superfluous Spd, Skl, and HP/Luck. In other words, it isn't helping her much.

[grandjackal]

I'd think she'd prefer to be crowned than be drowned in that amount of BEXP, simply as to no longer be impeded by her tier 2 speed cap. Let's say Fiona got to level...12. 3 BEXP levels will max out her resistance and defense, along with giving her 2 HP and 3 Luck. and a 1 in STR or Skill. From there, her highest growths would be HP, Strength and Skill. Feel free to tell me how much BEXP after 2 would befit Fiona for further improvement, otherwise she wouldn't gain much outside of helping her hit caps soon enough in tier 3 that she would hit at the same level regardless. So let's see how a level 14 crowned Fiona with 3 levels of BEXP help her compare.

Fiona level 20/15/1, BEXP 2 tier 2 levels from level 12.

41 HP, 20-21 Str, 15 Magic (natural Imbue...) 20-21 Skill, 26 Speed, 22 Luck, 26 Def, 22 Res

Level 20/1 Nephenee

44 HP, 24 Str, 12 Mag, 28 Skill, 29 Speed, 19. Luck, 24 Def, 22 Res

Really depends on how fast she gets to 20/12 I suppose...However, 26 AS is still doubling a bit reliably for part 4. Nephenee's got an offense advantage, no doubt there. Impale's got a better activation rate, 3-4 more Str, more Skill on top of it, Sentinal crit boost. However, defense isn't so clear cut. Fiona's got Sol for insta-healing, and on top of that a natural Imbue. With it she might lose HP by a bit, but has a nice defense and luck win to help avoid pesky crits. She on top of this not only has Canto, but Earth affinity as well, along with a secondary weapon. Another advantage with the horse is building a support. Neph might have a support with someone like Brom, but by now he's not really much welcome on the team. Neph might have to switch. Same with Fiona and her DB partner, most likely one of the crappier ones. She can easily rescue someone to hyper-speed a support. Who wouldn't either? Earth's pretty kickass here part 4, and plenty those around to give a handy offense or accuracy boost. Plenty of dudes with Fire around. This is also a major benefit due to natural savior (name someone in DB's part 1 and 3 who would give a damn about this skill OTHER than Fiona), so her performance will not be hindered while doing this.

So basically she STILL is capable of having a form of offense part 4, granted you can get her to this rediculous level any time soon thanks to her poor starting level and join time, while defensively better than some, even someone in upper mid despite still getting creamed offensively.

I know I'm a fan of cats, but...Sometimes ya gotta know when to call it quits I guess. Besides, I always wondered if Fiona was fixable. Hmmm...

Lemme run numbers on sealing and stuff, be right back with ya folks.

Ok, she's level 9. Pop a level of BEXP into her, she'll have the following stats after sealing.

10/1 Fiona, BEXP level.

27 HP, 9 Str, 8 Mag (could actually matter with natural imbue being this early, and the fact you're a tad crunched on healers), 9 Skill, 12 Speed, 8 Luck, 10 Def, 9 Res, +1 move

Chapter 1-7. Only people doubling her are Myrms (who couldn't kill her anyways, though still deadly), and one archer who CAN still kill her. However, everything else is fair game now. However, here's the thing.

Most enemies would do like 16 damage to her. Quite hefty, yes, leaving her at 11 HP. However, Imbue gives her 8 HP on the return. Bringing her to 18 HP. This gives her an extra player phase, and next turn will be back to full health. She might need to be spoonfed kills, but at least the handholding you need to do is GREATLY reduced.

Looking at stats, things went from 1RKOing her to 2RKOing her, mages now need to 3RKO her.

She doesn't double a goddamn thing, but at least she's not dying anymore. On top of that, you can now equip her with Elite.

So...As it can be seen, there are ways to make Fiona go from awful to mediocre part 1. If you can get any relevent leveling done in that time...She could be usable part 3. Won't be fantastic by any means, but...

Yeah...Fiona's part 1 and 3 are a bit more fixable than Lyre is. Damn laguz leveling speed...

Edited August 12, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Florete]

Why does she only reach 20/12 before BEXP, unless you're giving it to her at the start of 4-2 after Paragon in 3-12 and 3-13? Because I was suggesting from 20/14-16 after having done 4-2 with Paragon, so she'll be promoted and holding her own in 4-5.

[Interceptor]

While skimming this recent argument, I am not getting the impression that enough emphasis is being put on how maddeningly frustrating it is to train Fiona. Whenever I train her in HM -- and it's rare, because it's a huge pain in the ass -- I always end up having to reset a million times because she missed with a maxed HIT forge, and dies on counter because she's getting doubled. This is a big problem in 1-7, and it's an even bigger one in 1-E (no way in hell Fiona is closing a 15 HIT gap in one chapter to counteract Jarod's stars, and enemies have more AS now).

I can't even boss-abuse Fiona in 1-7 unless I give her an Energy Drop or she procs +STR on an in-chapter level-up, because she can't damage the boss at base STR with a max-mt forge. One playthrough I was tearing my hair out because I used the 1-2 drop on Volug, and Fiona refused to get +STR before I ran out of viable targets for her to kill. I ended up having to burn through my coins, and thank my lucky stars that there was a Sword card (of course she ended up getting +STR on that run, the stupid bitch).

Lyre is a really bad unit, but she doesn't face such ridiculous problems.

[grandjackal]

While skimming this recent argument, I am not getting the impression that enough emphasis is being put on how maddeningly frustrating it is to train Fiona. Whenever I train her in HM -- and it's rare, because it's a huge pain in the ass -- I always end up having to reset a million times because she missed with a maxed HIT forge, and dies on counter because she's getting doubled. This is a big problem in 1-7, and it's an even bigger one in 1-E (no way in hell Fiona is closing a 15 HIT gap in one chapter to counteract Jarod's stars, and enemies have more AS now).

I can't even boss-abuse Fiona in 1-7 unless I give her an Energy Drop or she procs +STR on an in-chapter level-up, because she can't damage the boss at base STR with a max-mt forge. One playthrough I was tearing my hair out because I used the 1-2 drop on Volug, and Fiona refused to get +STR before I ran out of viable targets for her to kill. I ended up having to burn through my coins, and thank my lucky stars that there was a Sword card (of course she ended up getting +STR on that run, the stupid bitch).

Lyre is a really bad unit, but she doesn't face such ridiculous problems.

A BEXP level and a seal, now able to equip Paragon, your problems are virtually over. 1 more move, range, canto, now not getting doubled and can actually be rather self-sufficient so your need to hold her hand is greatly diminished. Granted this makes her horrible part 4, but she's an easy spare tire for the rest of part 1 and 3 now. To reiterate...

Ok, she's level 9. Pop a level of BEXP into her, she'll have the following stats after sealing.

10/1 Fiona, BEXP level.

27 HP, 9 Str, 8 Mag (could actually matter with natural imbue being this early, and the fact you're a tad crunched on healers), 9 Skill, 12 Speed, 8 Luck, 10 Def, 9 Res, +1 move

Chapter 1-7. Only people doubling her are Myrms (who couldn't kill her anyways, though still deadly), and one archer who CAN still kill her. However, everything else is fair game now. However, here's the thing.

Most enemies would do like 16 damage to her. Quite hefty, yes, leaving her at 11 HP. However, Imbue gives her 8 HP on the return. Bringing her to 18 HP. This gives her an extra player phase, and next turn will be back to full health. She might need to be spoonfed kills, but at least the handholding you need to do is GREATLY reduced.

Looking at stats, things went from 1RKOing her to 2RKOing her, mages now need to 3RKO her.

She doesn't double a goddamn thing, but at least she's not dying anymore. On top of that, you can now equip her with Elite.

So...As it can be seen, there are ways to make Fiona go from awful to mediocre part 1. If you can get any relevent leveling done in that time...She could be usable part 3. Won't be fantastic by any means, but...

Yeah...Fiona's part 1 and 3 are a bit more fixable than Lyre is. Damn laguz leveling speed...

@Red Fox-Because a crowning virtually is 3 levels, and saves the hassle of doing 4-2 with a weaker unit. Besides, she's sort of comparable to Neph in the comparison anyways. I just went with giving her the bit of BEXP to cap out her defense and resistance, while giving her a bit of meat in her HP along with trying to boost her offense a tidbit more, though Luck was involved and Skill might cause the problem with Str...

Basically, that 24 cap was impeding her performance, a crown gets rid of it basically forever.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Florete]

While skimming this recent argument, I am not getting the impression that enough emphasis is being put on how maddeningly frustrating it is to train Fiona. Whenever I train her in HM -- and it's rare, because it's a huge pain in the ass -- I always end up having to reset a million times because she missed with a maxed HIT forge, and dies on counter because she's getting doubled. This is a big problem in 1-7, and it's an even bigger one in 1-E (no way in hell Fiona is closing a 15 HIT gap in one chapter to counteract Jarod's stars, and enemies have more AS now).

Are you sure you had a max Hit forge? Because I recall seeing the numbers and her having 85+ on everything at neutral bio. I can't see how that's so bad. And I gave her a Seraph Robe to partially fix her durability, and just one +Spd stops a lot of enemies from ORKOing her. Did you read everything before posting? I know there's been a lot, but this was at the very start that I said all this.

Lyre is a really bad unit, but she doesn't face such ridiculous problems.

Have you even used Lyre? It's like trying to have Mist fight, only even worse if you don't feed her an Energy Drop. And then, oops, she reverted. How does she not face "such ridiculous problems?"

[grandjackal]

Another deal is that she doesn't exactly need stat boosters to help her out early on. Just a level of BEXP and a seal (seriously, who cares about a Seal? You got plenty, you aren't gonna be using every DB unit you can cram in anyways). To reiterate my post, in case it was missed due to late editing...

A BEXP level and a seal, now able to equip Paragon, your problems are virtually over. 1 more move, range, canto, now not getting doubled and can actually be rather self-sufficient so your need to hold her hand is greatly diminished. Granted this makes her horrible part 4, but she's an easy spare tire for the rest of part 1 and 3 now. To reiterate...

Ok, she's level 9. Pop a level of BEXP into her, she'll have the following stats after sealing.

10/1 Fiona, BEXP level.

27 HP, 9 Str, 8 Mag (could actually matter with natural imbue being this early, and the fact you're a tad crunched on healers), 9 Skill, 12 Speed, 8 Luck, 10 Def, 9 Res, +1 move

Chapter 1-7. Only people doubling her are Myrms (who couldn't kill her anyways, though still deadly), and one archer who CAN still kill her. However, everything else is fair game now. However, here's the thing.

Most enemies would do like 16 damage to her. Quite hefty, yes, leaving her at 11 HP. However, Imbue gives her 8 HP on the return. Bringing her to 18 HP. This gives her an extra player phase, and next turn will be back to full health. She might need to be spoonfed kills, but at least the handholding you need to do is GREATLY reduced.

Looking at stats, things went from 1RKOing her to 2RKOing her, mages now need to 3RKO her.

She doesn't double a goddamn thing, but at least she's not dying anymore. On top of that, you can now equip her with Elite.

So...As it can be seen, there are ways to make Fiona go from awful to mediocre part 1. If you can get any relevent leveling done in that time...She could be usable part 3. Won't be fantastic by any means, but...

Yeah...Fiona's part 1 and 3 are a bit more fixable than Lyre is. Damn laguz leveling speed...

@Red Fox-Because a crowning virtually is 3 levels, and saves the hassle of doing 4-2 with a weaker unit. Besides, she's sort of comparable to Neph in the comparison anyways. I just went with giving her the bit of BEXP to cap out her defense and resistance, while giving her a bit of meat in her HP along with trying to boost her offense a tidbit more, though Luck was involved and Skill might cause the problem with Str...

Basically, that 24 cap was impeding her performance, a crown gets rid of it basically forever.

Hmmm...Makes me wonder about sealing Meg. How fast you think she can get to level 10?

[Narga_Rocks]

While skimming this recent argument, I am not getting the impression that enough emphasis is being put on how maddeningly frustrating it is to train Fiona. Whenever I train her in HM -- and it's rare, because it's a huge pain in the ass -- I always end up having to reset a million times because she missed with a maxed HIT forge, and dies on counter because she's getting doubled. This is a big problem in 1-7, and it's an even bigger one in 1-E (no way in hell Fiona is closing a 15 HIT gap in one chapter to counteract Jarod's stars, and enemies have more AS now).

I can't even boss-abuse Fiona in 1-7 unless I give her an Energy Drop or she procs +STR on an in-chapter level-up, because she can't damage the boss at base STR with a max-mt forge. One playthrough I was tearing my hair out because I used the 1-2 drop on Volug, and Fiona refused to get +STR before I ran out of viable targets for her to kill. I ended up having to burn through my coins, and thank my lucky stars that there was a Sword card (of course she ended up getting +STR on that run, the stupid bitch).

Lyre is a really bad unit, but she doesn't face such ridiculous problems.

Which is likely the key to this debate. Red Fox earlier gave an 85% hit rate for Fiona even with a max hit forge. There are 4 bow users scattered throughout 1-7 that it is safe for her to miss. Well, there's also 3 bow using reinforcements, but they show up at the end of turn 9 and it would take Fiona forever to get around to them and they have friends. Lyre at least is mostly facing 3HKOd by enemies and I think has a near 100% hit rate. Once Fiona is out of her part 1 hole I think she can actually pull it off, but it's not good. Even the seraph robe to make Fiona more durable means 32 hp and 8 def. She's still ORKOd by 24 mt and 14 spd. Or 22 magic mt and 14 spd, though mages actually have neither the mt nor the spd. Still, the swordmasters could crit her so there isn't much she survives 100% even this way. It isn't like she gets ORKOd by everything, so it's safe to miss on a few more enemies than just the 4 archers, but she still gets ORKOd by a lot. I suppose 1-E is likely even worse.

1-7 and 1-E is really bad, so it's a question of how bad is it, really? Well, if we assume Fiona is slightly better than Lyre in parts 3 and 4. If we assume they are about equal in those parts, then 1-7 and 1-E would be enough to make the difference easily.

[-Cynthia-]

Sealing Meg is going to be a lot more painful than sealing Fiona, because Meg only starts at level 3, which means we're actually going to have to use Meg, since even all our BEXP dumped into her won't make her level 10.

Edited August 12, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Interceptor]

A BEXP level and a seal, now able to equip Paragon, your problems are virtually over.

No, your problems are just beginning, because now Fiona is a tier 2 unit and she's worse than base-level Nolan. This is not a plan for success, this is a band-aid that lasts for one, maybe two levels. She's boned in Part 3/4.

Are you sure you had a max Hit forge? Because I recall seeing the numbers and her having 85+ on everything at neutral bio. I can't see how that's so bad. And I gave her a Seraph Robe to partially fix her durability, and just one +Spd stops a lot of enemies from ORKOing her.

85+ listed HIT is not bad in general, but it's bad when a miss means you have a real chance of dying because of it.

Did you read everything before posting? I know there's been a lot, but this was at the very start that I said all this.

Is there some alternate definition of "skimmed" that I am unaware of? I certainly did not read absolutely everything.

Have you even used Lyre? It's like trying to have Mist fight, only even worse if you don't feed her an Energy Drop. And then, oops, she reverted. How does she not face "such ridiculous problems?"

Lyre doesn't face a chance to die because of a miss, which means she's literally not facing such a ridiculous problem as Fiona.

I have used both characters, and I consider Lyre to be much more usable in Hard Mode. She is considerably easier to train, since I just have to bank a bunch of stat-ups to get her going, and I have Paragon and a crapload of excellent weakeners to make it so that she can gum things to death. Training Fiona is an exercise in frustration and failure, and your ability to soften the blow is hamstrung by the fact that she exists in the Dawn Brigade.

[Florete]

No, your problems are just beginning, because now Fiona is a tier 2 unit and she's worse than base-level Nolan. This is not a plan for success, this is a band-aid that lasts for one, maybe two levels. She's boned in Part 3/4.

Even if it only lasts for one, maybe two chapters, I'd say two maps of mediocrity > sucking for forever, wouldn't you?

85+ listed HIT is not bad in general, but it's bad when a miss means you have a real chance of dying because of it.

That's what the Seraph Robe and quick Spd proc were for. IIRC, there were only 8 enemies in the entire map that could still ORKO her.

Is there some alternate definition of "skimmed" that I am unaware of? I certainly did not read absolutely everything.

Sorry, I forgot that part when typing. I just figured you knew the basic situation.

Lyre doesn't face a chance to die because of a miss, which means she's literally not facing such a ridiculous problem as Fiona.

She's 2-3HKOd and has no range, and a stupid laguz gauge, and even lacks Canto. She might not face as high chances of death initially, but they most definitely are up there.

She is considerably easier to train, since I just have to bank a bunch of stat-ups to get her going, and I have Paragon and a crapload of excellent weakeners to make it so that she can gum things to death.

A bunch of statups? How much favoritism are you going to throw on her? At least I made Fiona semi-usable with just a Seraph Robe and BEXP. If you're going to suggest something like 2 Energy Drops, a Dracoshield, and a Speedwing, I'll most definitely lower her. And you said "a bunch of stat ups," so I think 4 would fit the bill.

The DB also has excellent weakeners in Tormod, Vika, Zihark, Sothe, and capped Micaiah. I'd say this situation is even better for Fiona since these units don't generally care about experience as much as your GM weakeners do (especially Tormod and Vika) and I don't have to lower enemies to some exact amount to feed it to Fiona. I showed a few posts back how there are plenty someone + Fiona combinations that kill enemies.

[grandjackal]

Fiona 10/4, a BEXP level factored.

29 HP, 10 Str, 8 Mag, 10 Skill, 14 Speed, 10 Luck, 12 Def, 11 Res

Only things that double her are a single Myrmidon and Jarod.

Fighters 2RKO her for 18-17 damage, Imbue gives her an extra player phase on them.

Myrm that doubles her does it for 10x2 damage, Imbue won't give her an extra player phase. Other guy can't, and 4RKOs her. Gu's got a killing edge, not even a crit would kill her.

2x Soldier lvl 18 (Steel Lance)

HP 32, Atk 26, AS 16, Hit 134, Avo 56, DEF 14, RES 9, Crit 7, Ddg 9

1x Soldier lvl 19 (Steel Lance, droppable chest key)

HP 32, Atk 26, AS 17, Hit 134, Avo 58, DEF 14, RES 8, Crit 7, Ddg 9

1x Soldier lvl 18 (Javelin)

HP 32, Atk 23, AS 16, Hit 119, Avo 56, DEF 13, RES 8, Crit 7, Ddg 9

1x Soldier lvl 19 (Javelin)

HP 33, Atk 24, AS 17, Hit 121, Avo 58, DEF 13, RES 8, Crit 7, Ddg 9

All 3RKOs, Imbue let's her recover basically 2 health of the damage the stronger ones do. Punk with the great lance does 19 damage.

3x Archer lvl 18 (Steel Bow)

HP 29, Atk 28, AS 16, Hit 136, Avo 56, DEF 13, RES 6, Crit 8, Ddg 9

1x Archer lvl 19 (Steel Bow)

HP 30, Atk 28, AS 17, Hit 141, Avo 57, DEF 13, RES 6, Crit 9, Ddg 10

1x Archer lvl 18 (Iron Longbow)

HP 29, Atk 26, AS 15, Hit 125, Avo 54, DEF 12, RES 6, Crit 9, Ddg 9- 2RKO with Imbue healing half the damage.

2x Wind Mage lvl 19 (Elwind)

HP 27, Atk 24, AS 14, Hit 139, Avo 51, DEF 7, RES 13, Crit 6, Ddg 8

2x Thunder Mage lvl 19 (Elthunder)

HP 26, Atk 22, AS 13, Hit 126, Avo 49, DEF 7, RES 13, Crit 17, Ddg 8

1x Fire Mage vl 18 (Elfire)

HP 26, Atk 20, AS 14, Hit 134, Avo 51, DEF 7, RES 14, Crit 6, Ddg 8

1x Fire Mage lvl 19 (Meteor, secondary weapon Elfire, AS is 13 w/Elfire)

HP 26, Atk 23, AS 2, Hit 118, Avo 28, DEF 7, RES 14, Crit 6, Ddg 9 - A 3-4RKO on these guys, Imbue taking a nice edge off them.

1x Armor Sword lvl 18 (Steel Blade)

HP 36, Atk 31, AS 14, Hit 115, Avo 54, DEF 17, RES 7, Crit 6, Ddg 11

1x Armor Axe lvl 18 (Hand Axe)

HP 37, Atk 27, AS 14, Hit 124, Avo 54, DEF 18, RES 7, Crit 7, Ddg 11

1x Armor Sword lvl 19 (Wind Edge)

HP 36, Atk 25, AS 15, Hit 112, Avo 56, DEF 18, RES 7, Crit 6, Ddg 11

1x Armor Axe lvl 18 (Steel Poleax)

HP 36, Atk 32, AS 12, Hit 112, Avo 50, DEF 17, RES 7, Crit 6, Ddg 11

1x Armor Lance lvl 19 (Steel Lance)

HP 37, Atk 28, AS 14, Hit 137, Avo 55, DEF 17, RES 7, Crit 7, Ddg 12

1x Armor Lance lvl 18 (Javelin)

HP 36, Atk 25, AS 14, Hit 119, Avo 54, DEF 17, RES 7, Crit 7, Ddg 11

1x Armor Lance lvl 18 (Steel Greatlance)

HP 36, Atk 33, AS 15, Hit 125, Avo 57, DEF 17, RES 7, Crit 7, Ddg 12 -2-3RKO depending on which one you're asking. She wouldn't want to fight these guys anyways.

Reinforcements are generally like this as well. Fiona has plenty of benefits here considering though. 1. Earth support is greatly digging into them authority stars of Jarod's, so whoever she's supporting welcomes her presence. 2. Imbue means she can be self-sufficient, leaving Miccy and Laura to be busy with others on your team. 3. As you can see, she's not exactly getting 1RKOd, though indeed she's not doing much better. However, what if someone's in danger? Might not be many around, but someone missed and they're looking down Death's double barrel shotgun. She's got natural Savior, and thus can save someone from death without being in any risk of dying herself. Move might be reduced, but the seal boosts her move by 1.

Her offense still blows most likely, but at least she's finding ways around it now.

In fact, a defensive support (I recall her having a mysteriously fast one with Aran...) would actually boost a couple of these numbers in her favor. I'm sure Aran would love some Earth as well.

@Cynthia: Meg's got a lot more time at least. However, you have a point. However by then, Meg will have gained some boosts, and I will mention them later after a bit more number crunching.

Anywho, how quick do you think Meg is getting to level 10? If it's before 1-7, she's basically a more durable, but less mobile, 1 speed slower and less versatile Fiona...

...I could actually say Fiona could top out bottom tier.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Interceptor]

Even if it only lasts for one, maybe two chapters, I'd say two maps of mediocrity > sucking for forever, wouldn't you?

Only if the mediocrity was free, and it's entirely contingent on the magnitude of the mediocrity vs. that of the sucking.

That's what the Seraph Robe and quick Spd proc were for. IIRC, there were only 8 enemies in the entire map that could still ORKO her.

You just gave up a stat booster and 1,000 BEXP to "solve" this problem.

She's 2-3HKOd and has no range, and a stupid laguz gauge, and even lacks Canto. She might not face as high chances of death initially, but they most definitely are up there.

My point here was that this particular failing of Fiona was unique to her, and extremely ridiculous. I was not implying that Lyre did not have her own problems, just that she didn't have this one.

A bunch of statups? How much favoritism are you going to throw on her? At least I made Fiona semi-usable with just a Seraph Robe and BEXP. If you're going to suggest something like 2 Energy Drops, a Dracoshield, and a Speedwing, I'll most definitely lower her. And you said "a bunch of stat ups," so I think 4 would fit the bill.

You asked me if I used her, I replied in the affirmative with how I train Lyre. I am not saying that it makes her better than Fiona. She is unarguably easier to train than Fiona, though.

The problem with these characters is that they are both so awful that you can't even use them at all. smash's idea of stuffing Bottom tier with favoritism doesn't fly because the scale tips in different directions based on how the units match up after on giving them X amount of resources.

The DB also has excellent weakeners in Tormod, Vika, Zihark, Sothe, and capped Micaiah. I'd say this situation is even better for Fiona since these units don't generally care about experience as much as your GM weakeners do (especially Tormod and Vika) and I don't have to lower enemies to some exact amount to feed it to Fiona. I showed a few posts back how there are plenty someone + Fiona combinations that kill enemies.

It's nice that Fiona's team has weakeners, but the fact that Lyre's has them was the only fact germane to my point. Lyre is not difficult to train -- at least not to the same extent of frustration as you get with Fiona -- she's just expensive to train.

[Florete]

Only if the mediocrity was free, and it's entirely contingent on the magnitude of the mediocrity vs. that of the sucking.

The mediocrity didn't come at a high price, just BEXP (since it's likely no one cares about the Seal). It costs more to make Lyre even just mediocre.

You just gave up a stat booster and 1,000 BEXP to "solve" this problem.

I gave Lyre an Energy Drop and BEXP to "solve" her problem. Your point?

My point here was that this particular failing of Fiona was unique to her, and extremely ridiculous. I was not implying that Lyre did not have her own problems, just that she didn't have this one.

Okay, so you gave a reason why Fiona is Bottom tier but didn't actually compare her to Lyre. Good job, you proved absolutely nothing people don't already know.

You asked me if I used her, I replied in the affirmative with how I train Lyre. I am not saying that it makes her better than Fiona. She is unarguably easier to train than Fiona, though.

Don't get cocky, Interceptor. She is very arguably easier to train then Lyre. 85+ hit rates are fairly reliable, I have easier ways of lowering enemies for her, she can Canto, she can fight for the duration of the map. How the hell is Lyre easier to train?

The problem with these characters is that they are both so awful that you can't even use them at all. smash's idea of stuffing Bottom tier with favoritism doesn't fly because the scale tips in different directions based on how the units match up after on giving them X amount of resources.

So you're saying we shouldn't favor them, and we should just not use them? Then I'll take them off the list entirely.

We're tiering units based on how well they do in comparison to the team with they can do when played. When Fiona or Lyre get played, they will get favoritism because they suck too much without it, it's why they're in Bottom. I did not get this idea from smash. Why should they not get any favoritism? We assume at least some for everyone, so it makes no sense that the two who need it the most wouldn't get any.

It's nice that Fiona's team has weakeners, but the fact that Lyre's has them was the only fact germane to my point.

So what the hell are you doing here? What was the point of saying Lyre's team has weakeners if you don't care that Fiona's does too? That's like comparing Marcia and Jill and saying Marcia can fly and when someone replies saying "Jill can as well," you just go "that's not my point."

Lyre is not difficult to train -- at least not to the same extent of frustration as you get with Fiona -- she's just expensive to train.

Wait, who's expensive to train, Fiona or Lyre? The way your sentence is worded I can't quite tell.

And if you really want to go into cost, I'm pretty sure you know how much money we have in this game.

No offense, Interceptor, but I expected better from you.

[grandjackal]

Level 16 with Seal after 2 BEXP levels makes her as usable as most of your other DB units part 3. Lyre needs a lot more than that just to compete with the mercs...

Edited August 12, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Narga_Rocks]

Lyre is not difficult to train -- at least not to the same extent of frustration as you get with Fiona -- she's just expensive to train.

Wait, who's expensive to train, Fiona or Lyre? The way your sentence is worded I can't quite tell.

And if you really want to go into cost, I'm pretty sure you know how much money we have in this game.

No offense, Interceptor, but I expected better from you.

Just to clear something up, I'm not sure if I can just tell how Interceptor thinks or something, but:

this:

Lyre is not difficult to train -- at least not to the same extent of frustration as you get with Fiona -- she's just expensive to train.

becomes:

Lyre is not difficult to train she's just expensive to train.

when we remove the stuff between the dashes. So he's saying Lyre is expensive to train.

He's also saying being expensive to train is better than being frustrating to train.

85% hit rates might be nice, but if we feed her 7 or 8 kills the chance of missing becomes rather high, and considering a miss results in death and she'll miss at least once in a rather high number of attempts to train her, it is going to result in death enough times that Interceptor is saying being expensive is superior to kamikaze Fiona.

I don't really know if I agree with him or you at this point.

[Florete]

Just to clear something up, I'm not sure if I can just tell how Interceptor thinks or something, but:

this:

Lyre is not difficult to train -- at least not to the same extent of frustration as you get with Fiona -- she's just expensive to train.

becomes:

Lyre is not difficult to train she's just expensive to train.

when we remove the stuff between the dashes. So he's saying Lyre is expensive to train.

He's also saying being expensive to train is better than being frustrating to train.

85% hit rates might be nice, but if we feed her 7 or 8 kills the chance of missing becomes rather high, and considering a miss results in death and she'll miss at least once in a rather high number of attempts to train her, it is going to result in death enough times that Interceptor is saying being expensive is superior to kamikaze Fiona.

I don't really know if I agree with him or you at this point.

85 is her minimum (at neutral bio) though. With her bases and a max Hit forge, she has 133 Hit, which actually sees 90+ on a lot of enemies in 1-7. This is also displayed hit and not true. It's like, Myrmidons that bring her lower. Also, if we use a Coin, the Arrow card (+10 Hit) is the most likely outcome, and that would pretty much eliminate her Hit problems altogether. Then there's the leveling up during the chapter and getting +Skl or Luck to help further. If you know how to work around it, Fiona's Hit issues actually aren't that bad.

EDIT: Given the Seraph Robe, those Myrmidons also won't ORKO her.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Interceptor]

The mediocrity didn't come at a high price, just BEXP (since it's likely no one cares about the Seal). It costs more to make Lyre even just mediocre.

But it still has a price. You didn't answer the more important second-half of my question: if you want me to buy into your hypothetical, the magnitude of the difference between "mediocre" and "sucking" is pretty important. Narga made a glacing blow on this point earlier.

I gave Lyre an Energy Drop and BEXP to "solve" her problem. Your point?

I was just pointing out that the problem wasn't even solved, in addition to costing you to "fix" it.

Okay, so you gave a reason why Fiona is Bottom tier but didn't actually compare her to Lyre. Good job, you proved absolutely nothing people don't already know.

What makes you think that I was doing anything other than what I said? If you want to scroll back, notice how I'm not endorsing either one of them, I'm just pointing out that I didn't see anywhere in my skim that anyone is really considering how awful that training Fiona in HM is. If someone did, and I missed it, then you know why.

Don't get cocky, Interceptor. She is very arguably easier to train then Lyre. 85+ hit rates are fairly reliable, I have easier ways of lowering enemies for her, she can Canto, she can fight for the duration of the map. How the hell is Lyre easier to train?

I already said why: I can just dump a bunch of crap onto her (boosters, BEXP, skills), and on top of that she's in a very favorable environment for babying (plenty of durable walls, plenty of weakners, etc).

We're tiering units based on how well they do in comparison to the team with they can do when played. When Fiona or Lyre get played, they will get favoritism because they suck too much without it, it's why they're in Bottom. I did not get this idea from smash. Why should they not get any favoritism? We assume at least some for everyone, so it makes no sense that the two who need it the most wouldn't get any.

I don't agree with this logic at all. My stance on favoritism is that of doritos opportunity cost. Nobody gets anything for free. This is not Soviet Fire Emblem, where you get X% of the resource pie no matter how badly you suck with it.

The point that I am trying to make is that they are both so ridiculously awful that no level of favoritism can dig them out of the hole. They take one step forward and three steps back. The level of favoritism involved is going to change the calculus of how better one is compared to to the other, but that's only changing the size of the gap, not the fact that both of them are totally underwater no matter what they do. You're left measuring basically which unit is sandbagging the team less bad than the other, which is silly.

So what the hell are you doing here? What was the point of saying Lyre's team has weakeners if you don't care that Fiona's does too? That's like comparing Marcia and Jill and saying Marcia can fly and when someone replies saying "Jill can as well," you just go "that's not my point."

See above.

Wait, who's expensive to train, Fiona or Lyre? The way your sentence is worded I can't quite tell.

Lyre.

And if you really want to go into cost, I'm pretty sure you know how much money we have in this game.

Cost is referring to non-gold items like Paragon, stat-ups, etc.

No offense, Interceptor, but I expected better from you.

I think that your expectations are the problem. I am not arguing one of them over the other, I just made two major observations:

1) I don't think that I saw anyone really emphasize how hard it is to trian Fiona.

2) Comparing the two of them is a fool's game to begin with. It's Astrid vs. Meg redux.

[grandjackal]

A BEXP level and a seal makes her go from sucking to being mediocre but able to put her self-sufficiency to good use, right? Imbue means she does not need healing as often, and more open for a player phase. She basically becomes Aran with a bit less enemy phase but more player phase, less need of healing, canto and an Earth affinity, though considerably weaker offensively. Hell, for how easy it is to get her to low health and that she can at least take a round, Wrath could help her out a bit.

A seal is not asking for much. Asking for a stat booster though is. BEXP+Seal>BEXP+Energy Drop, or whatever the fuck Lyre needs.

[Florete]

I was just pointing out that the problem wasn't even solved, in addition to costing you to "fix" it.

It wasn't entirely solved, but it got damn close. Going from being ORKOd by everyone -> ORKOd by 8 enemies is a big improvement.

What makes you think that I was doing anything other than what I said? If you want to scroll back, notice how I'm not endorsing either one of them, I'm just pointing out that I didn't see anywhere in my skim that anyone is really considering how awful that training Fiona in HM is. If someone did, and I missed it, then you know why.

Do you want to know why that is? Because Lyre is also extremely difficult to train. When two units have the same property attached, neither gets + or - from it. In a Mist vs. Rhys comparison, Mist wouldn't be winning for staves since Rhys can do it as well. This is a very similar thing.

I already said why: I can just dump a bunch of crap onto her (boosters, BEXP, skills), and on top of that she's in a very favorable environment for babying (plenty of durable walls, plenty of weakners, etc).

I don't agree with this logic at all. My stance on favoritism is that of doritos opportunity cost. Nobody gets anything for free. This is not Soviet Fire Emblem, where you get X% of the resource pie no matter how badly you suck with it.

Do I spot a double standard or am I reading wrong? I hope it's the latter.

I do agree with your second paragraph, but I'm not getting your point in terms of our current argument. If Lyre and Fiona were getting these things for free, they wouldn't be Bottom tier.

The point that I am trying to make is that they are both so ridiculously awful that no level of favoritism can dig them out of the hole. They take one step forward and three steps back. The level of favoritism involved is going to change the calculus of how better one is compared to to the other, but that's only changing the size of the gap, not the fact that both of them are totally underwater no matter what they do. You're left measuring basically which unit is sandbagging the team less bad than the other, which is silly.

And that's exactly what we've been trying to gauge. Who is better in terms of the cost to get there and where they actually get?

2) Comparing the two of them is a fool's game to begin with. It's Astrid vs. Meg redux.

So why are you even pitching in? If you have a stance, take it, don't tell me we shouldn't have even started.

[grandjackal]

Once again, ignoring the BEXP Sealing...So, onto more pressing issues I guess.

I dunno why, but I'm having another of my weird-ass senses deal with Tormod...Something tells me a Seraph Robe might go a long ways with him...No clue why...

Hmm...Would you say Tormod gaining 4 levels in the small time he has part 1 as rediculous before part 4?