I feel like Birthright and Conquest should’ve switched final bosses

[Issac the Vast]

I know Fates isn’t a hot topic to talk about anymore, but this is an idea I’ve had in mind for a while now. I want to share it so let me know why you all think about Leo being possessed by Anankos in Birthright and Garon being the final boss in Conquest?

In this Au, it starts where Leo is an enemy unit in chapter 13, working alongside Camilla to stop corrin and their army from reaching nohr. Like in canon, after the battle is dealt with, Leo forces Camilla and her retainers to retreat and then starts chastising corrin for their betrayal, only for corrin to say how they can’t side with Garon, when Scarlett and Ryoma show up causing Leo to retreat.

We next see Leo in chapter 16, taking Iago’s role as the boss along with his retainers. By then, Leo has ambushed Corrin and his army, and wanting to turn his brother in and hopefully end this war quicker, Leo is on the attack… of course he loses, causing Leo to feel a deeper shame then he already did before, so when corrin chastises Leo for getting in the way from saving his brother Takumi, Leo is at first hurt that corrin would easily replace his little brother, but once again his insecurities and pride won’t let him see reason and Leo is forced to escape again with his retainers.

Chapter 18 plays as usual, but instead of fighting a horde of faceless, it’s a horde of Nohrian soldiers, all promoted to master class units, making this the first chapters where all the enemies are promoted. By this point, Leo is done playing games as he says this time “I’ll kill you for your betrayal” as Corrin and Leo have a battle in the dark forest. After Leo is once again defeated, Odin and Niles are practically begging him to give up this hunt for corrin, with corrin wanting to patch things up with Leo. At first Leo listens to corrin, but Anankos’s influence starts to get in the way on the nohrian prince, so Leo says that “you won’t stand a chance against Nohr, Corrin. Xander is much too powerful since he saw the rainbow sage” and he orders his retainers to once again retreat. After that, Kaze notices that had dropped a tome that allows them to teleport to the rainbow sage and back to nohr, which Ryoma deduces that Leo has been using the tome constantly hunt Corrin and the Hoshidans.

It all comes to a pitch in chapter 21, this time, the Vallite army is replaced by the Nohrian army, at this point Leo can’t take the shame of losing so many times to corrin and with Anankos brain washing him to the point of madness, he orders the nohrian army at the burning falls to “eliminate all the Hoshidans. Leave none alive.” After an epic battle in the burning falls, resulting in all the Nohrian soldiers, including Odin and Niles, dying, Leo is last left. At this point, with nothing left to lose, Leo uses Brynhildr in a suicide attack to take corrin out but Corrin survives, causing Leo to die in the process. Corrin mourns for their lost brother before the pathway opens up to windmire allowing the Hoshidans to head into the city. Corrin gives one last look at Leo before saying “I’m sorry brother” and leaves Leo’s body there. Unfortunately, with Leo Dead, Anankos can now take full control over Leo without him fighting back.

After the final push of the game, we head into chapter 27, after the battle with Garon, Corrin orders all remaining soldiers to surrender immediately only for dead trees to sprout from the ground once again and low and behold, a now possessed Leo is at the entrance to the throne room “betrayal! Betrayal! I am betrayal!” Now with Anonkos in full control, he uses all of Leo’s negative emotions to attack corrin and co., with corrin desperately trying to get Leo to see reason but it was too late. Azura tells corrin that the same being that had turned Garon into a monster has now found a home in Leo, and feeling guilty over what happened, corrin offers Leo to take his life in exchange for sparing his friends. Leo happily accepts “DIE!” As Leo uses Brynildr to kill corrin.

In Endgame, corrin is only mostly dead as Xander and Elise still talk corrin into picking up his sword and finding the will to fight one more time, especially once corrin realizes that Leo isn’t gonna fulfill his part of the deal and starts Attacking Ryoma and the others. But what really helps Corrin go back is seeing Leo’s ghost alongside Xander, Elise, Flora and Lilith. Leo says to Corrin that “I never hated you” and how much regret he had over their constant rivalry growing as Leo truly did love corrin, and was hurt when they left Nohr for Hoshido. Leo tells corrin that in order for him to move onto the after life, they must destroy his body that’s now possessed. Leo gives Corrin Brynhildr and sends his brother on his way saying “I hope we can be siblings again in another life.” After a pep talk from the other four, corrin goes back to finish the fight with possessed Leo. Leo is flabbergasted that Brynhildr won’t do damage to Corrin’s yato anymore, as Corrin says “that Brynhildr belonged to my brother, not you!” Causing the final battle to start. Azura starts her song to weaken Leo “My powers are fading but why… why! Nobody loves me! They’re always getting in my way!” Instead of The Nohrian army being the enemies you fight, it’s the Vallite army. Leo as the boss will be a level 20 Sorcerer, but he’s still wearing his dark knight outfit cause he looks cool in that outfit. Once the battle is over and Leo is defeated, in his dying breath, Leo says “thank… you. Brother/sister” as Corrin mournes for their lost sibling, Azura unfortunately succumbs to her wounds, with Corrin promising her to fulfill her wishes of a peaceful role. With Leo now dead in this route, Camilla is forced to take the position as queen of Nohr, though she’s extra sad now that all her siblings are dead and she’s the only Nohrian royal left, but she won’t let that get to her as she promises corrin to be a good queen.

The rest plays out as canon. This au sticks close to canon, but Leo is still the main obstacle.

Now let’s move onto Conquest. This au sticks closer to canon more than Birthright since the only major changes start in chapter 23, possessed. So really this chapter plays out mostly the same until the end, right when Takumi gets overwhelmed by Anankos, Azura sings her song to him to try to free him. Unlike in canon it works.

Takumi, free from Anankos’s influence, is angered at what Corrin and their army are doing. Corrin pleads for Takumi to retreat and stay in hiding so that he won’t be harmed. See Sakura as a prisoner but still safe with her retainers, Takumi has no choice but to agree with Corrin and retreats but says “understand this, even if you win this war, you won’t be my brother.” Causing corrin and the player to feel sad that even though Takumi was saved from being possessed, he still won’t forgive Corrin.

The au once agains ticks close to canon, Hinoka going into hiding g after her defeat, Ryoma dying, and Hans and Iago getting killed. There’s no major difference in the story until the end of chapter 27.

After Corrin and the Nohrians kill Goo Garon, he gives his last essence into Anankos and turns into the Dragon Blight. I feel like Garon being the final boss of Conquest makes more sense thematically wise than in Birthright as this route tests Corrin’s morality and seeing the Nohrians do battle against their father would be more tragic.

After Corrin takes a hit from Dragon!Garon that was meant for Xander and Leo, they ends up getting knocked out cold and wakes up in their room in Hoshido with Mikoto and Ryoma.

Realizing his family in the living world still need them, and after a pep talk from his Mikoto, Ryoma, and Lilith, corrin returns to the world of the living and together they defeat Dragon!Garon. The war is over and Corrin sulks about how hatred and anger can create a monster like Garon and realizes that Azura has gone missing, causing them to think that may have been the last time they see her.

Xander is crowned the new King of Nohr and Hinoka, Sakura, and Takumi, who lives through this route, are there to congratulate him and thank corrin. Takumi is still angry at corrin for what happened, as well as for Ryoma dying, but in the end decides to let go of his hatred for nohr for Hoshido’s sake. He tells corrin that it’ll take time to forgive them, but he says “I look forward to one day calling you my Brother/Sister”. After that the story ends the same way in canon, but Hoshido being in a much better state than they are in canon.

So why do you think of this au. Do you think it would work better t than canon? Let me know.

[Jotari]

What's with the huge font? Makes a long post even longer for scrolling through.

[Issac the Vast]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

What's with the huge font? Makes a long post even longer for scrolling through.

I wrote this in word press, the huge font came with the territory y’know. 

[lenticular]

3 hours ago, Issac the Vast said:

I wrote this in word press, the huge font came with the territory y’know. 

For future reference: If you copy and paste something into the composition box on this forum, there should be a little popup that says "Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead". If you select to paste as plane text instead, then that will remove any extra formatting like the large font size and give you a result that people are more likely to actually want to read.

[Shoblongoo]

I feel like you've now officially put more thought into the plot progression of Fates then the people who actually made the game 

[Etrurian emperor]

I think the difficulty of the routes should have been changed.

Hoshido is easy mode with bland maps, and Conquest is hard mode with some of the more challenging maps in the series. But thematically this does not fit.

Throughout all three routes its shown that Nohr can steamroll Hoshido, and that Hoshido is always fighting a desperate battle. So in this sense it should be Hoshido that's the hard mode, and Conquest where its a breeze to conquer the far weaker nation.

[Jotari]

57 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think the difficulty of the routes should have been changed.

Hoshido is easy mode with bland maps, and Conquest is hard mode with some of the more challenging maps in the series. But thematically this does not fit.

Throughout all three routes its shown that Nohr can steamroll Hoshido, and that Hoshido is always fighting a desperate battle. So in this sense it should be Hoshido that's the hard mode, and Conquest where its a breeze to conquer the far weaker nation.

Conquest is harder because Corrin is using the taser sword.

[Issac the Vast]

8 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

I think the difficulty of the routes should have been changed.

Hoshido is easy mode with bland maps, and Conquest is hard mode with some of the more challenging maps in the series. But thematically this does not fit.

Throughout all three routes its shown that Nohr can steamroll Hoshido, and that Hoshido is always fighting a desperate battle. So in this sense it should be Hoshido that's the hard mode, and Conquest where its a breeze to conquer the far weaker nation.

I originally wrote this with the idea of this au mostly sticking to canon, especially for Conquest. I didn’t think of the difficulty switch for either route but now that I think of it… I still feel like it should stay the same. Really Conquest being harder makes sense because corrin and his army are fighting the front lines, and as such, they have to deal with the best of the Hoshido army. Compare that with Birthright where corrin and his army are fighting in the sidelines and as such, mostly deal with Nohr’s lesser soldiers that weren’t put in the front lines. 

[Eltosian Kadath]

On 11/20/2024 at 11:26 AM, Issac the Vast said:

I know Fates isn’t a hot topic to talk about anymore, but this is an idea I’ve had in mind for a while now. I want to share it so let me know why you all think about Leo being possessed by Anankos in Birthright and Garon being the final boss in Conquest?

Before reading, my guess here is that it is using the obscure fact that Azura gives the orb that Corrin breaks in Conquest to Leo instead in Birthright, and Anankos/Garon then use it like the Palantir looking at Sauron to corrupt him.

...

After reading it looks like you didn't worry as much about how that Valla nonsense infected Leo, which was probably a better approach all things considered.

On 11/20/2024 at 11:26 AM, Issac the Vast said:

I feel like Garon being the final boss of Conquest makes more sense thematically wise than in Birthright as this route tests Corrin’s morality and seeing the Nohrians do battle against their father would be more tragic.

Honestly, I think this would be a thematic weakening of Conquest. Takumi shouting Betrayal has that illusion of truth to it that Conquest likes to touch on thematically, and emphasizes that appearing to play by Garon's rules will have consequences that will outlive the man. Now I think the change would spice up Birthright in a good way, although I would like to see you try to conect that to Birthright's themes...assuming you know of any.

[Issac the Vast]

30 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Before reading, my guess here is that it is using the obscure fact that Azura gives the orb that Corrin breaks in Conquest to Leo instead in Birthright, and Anankos/Garon then use it like the Palantir looking at Sauron to corrupt him.

...

After reading it looks like you didn't worry as much about how that Valla nonsense infected Leo, which was probably a better approach all things considered.

Honestly, I think this would be a thematic weakening of Conquest. Takumi shouting Betrayal has that illusion of truth to it that Conquest likes to touch on thematically, and emphasizes that appearing to play by Garon's rules will have consequences that will outlive the man. Now I think the change would spice up Birthright in a good way, although I would like to see you try to conect that to Birthright's themes...assuming you know of any.

Well for Garon as the final boss for conquest, it was mostly down to balance out Leo being the one for birthright. I didn’t wanna do two possession final bosses. Plus I liked Dragon!Blight Garon so i didn’t wanna cut him out for this au. 
 

as for Leo being the final boss, it ties into the theme of forgiveness. While all three routes had that theme, it was Birthright that best used it. In this au, seeing Leo fall into Anankos’s control and the lengths he went to prove his honor would be sad but seeing his regret in endgame as well has his remorse over not helping Corrin, would’ve helped lifted corrin’s spirits, with Leo forgiving corrin for everything that’s happened. Plus it’d be a fitting end for Corrin to go against the sibling who felt the most like an outsider to his family. Sure Takumi was the black sheep of the Hoshidans but they all share the same mom and dad. Leo on the other hand is an illegitimate child to Garon and automatically feels like he isn’t good enough. He’s perfect for this au. 

[Dark Holy Elf]

On 11/23/2024 at 3:24 PM, Etrurian emperor said:

I think the difficulty of the routes should have been changed.

Hoshido is easy mode with bland maps, and Conquest is hard mode with some of the more challenging maps in the series. But thematically this does not fit.

Throughout all three routes its shown that Nohr can steamroll Hoshido, and that Hoshido is always fighting a desperate battle. So in this sense it should be Hoshido that's the hard mode, and Conquest where its a breeze to conquer the far weaker nation.

When is it shown that Nohr can steamroll Hoshido? The clash in Chapter 6 suggests the two nations are roughly evenly matched. This is further supported by the fact that Corrin is able to tilt the balance of the conflict. And of course, quite a few Conquest battles feature the Hoshidan army invading or occupying Nohrian territory; they're clearly a capable military force (with far better food supplies than Nohr, it should be mentioned).

I think Birthright being easier makes sense when you consider the type of conflict and in particular, the temperament of your foes. In Birthright, the major enemy generals are typically very mixed about fighting you at all (and Leo goes so far as to outright help you). While in Conquest, your main opponents consider you to be a deeply unjust conquerer and are fighting you with bitter determination. The most extreme examples are the fights against the elder princes: Xander has lost any belief that his path is just and is essentially committing suicide by cop, while Ryoma believes you have murdered two of his siblings and has set a trap to kill Corrin and as many of their forces as possible.

[Issac the Vast]

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

When is it shown that Nohr can steamroll Hoshido? The clash in Chapter 6 suggests the two nations are roughly evenly matched. This is further supported by the fact that Corrin is able to tilt the balance of the conflict. And of course, quite a few Conquest battles feature the Hoshidan army invading or occupying Nohrian territory; they're clearly a capable military force (with far better food supplies than Nohr, it should be mentioned).

I think Birthright being easier makes sense when you consider the type of conflict and in particular, the temperament of your foes. In Birthright, the major enemy generals are typically very mixed about fighting you at all (and Leo goes so far as to outright help you). While in Conquest, your main opponents consider you to be a deeply unjust conquerer and are fighting you with bitter determination. The most extreme examples are the fights against the elder princes: Xander has lost any belief that his path is just and is essentially committing suicide by cop, while Ryoma believes you have murdered two of his siblings and has set a trap to kill Corrin and as many of their forces as possible.

Not only that but Corrin and their army are fighting in the sidelines, where the majority of the soldiers aren’t as well trained as the ones in the front lines. Meanwhile in conquest, they’re fighting in the front lines against Hoshido’s best soldiers. 

[Etrurian emperor]

13 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

When is it shown that Nohr can steamroll Hoshido? The clash in Chapter 6 suggests the two nations are roughly evenly matched. This is further supported by the fact that Corrin is able to tilt the balance of the conflict. And of course, quite a few Conquest battles feature the Hoshidan army invading or occupying Nohrian territory; they're clearly a capable military force (with far better food supplies than Nohr, it should be mentioned).

I base it on a couple of things. Firstly Conquest being a conventional ahem...conquest of the enemy nation while Birthright has Hoshido being forced to go do a sneak attack on the capitol.

But more importantly I don't think the chapter 6 clash suggests the nations are evenly matched. Because when Corrin legs it in Revelation a furious Yukimura reveals that this resulted in Ryoma going missing and Takumi getting captured, suggesting that Nohr won that particular battle. Meaning that without Corrin's involvement Hoshido loses. Later on in Revelations they even make it to the capitol, albeit being driven off by Ryoma and Scarlet.

Still the image I get is that unless Garon vanishes from the stage either by getting killed in a sneak attack or getting eaten, and replaced by Xander/Leo the natural end result of the war is Norh conquering Hoshido.

You are right Hoshido leads some attacks on Norh in Conquest. Kinda akin to Fodlan in that the conquering nation seems to perform more poorly whenever the avatar joins their side. 

[Dark Holy Elf]

On 11/25/2024 at 8:32 AM, Etrurian emperor said:

But more importantly I don't think the chapter 6 clash suggests the nations are evenly matched. Because when Corrin legs it in Revelation a furious Yukimura reveals that this resulted in Ryoma going missing and Takumi getting captured, suggesting that Nohr won that particular battle. Meaning that without Corrin's involvement Hoshido loses. Later on in Revelations they even make it to the capitol, albeit being driven off by Ryoma and Scarlet.

Still the image I get is that unless Garon vanishes from the stage either by getting killed in a sneak attack or getting eaten, and replaced by Xander/Leo the natural end result of the war is Norh conquering Hoshido.

These are fair points. While I think "steamroll" goes too far, I see where you're coming from that the game paints Nohr as favoured in such a conflict. (I will willingly admit my memory for Revelation story is fuzzy at this point.)

On 11/25/2024 at 8:32 AM, Etrurian emperor said:

I base it on a couple of things. Firstly Conquest being a conventional ahem...conquest of the enemy nation while Birthright has Hoshido being forced to go do a sneak attack on the capitol.

That said, IMO this part to me just further justifies why Birthright is the easier game. If one game is "sneak around the main Nohrian army and do a sneak attack aimed at taking out Nohr's leadership" and the other is "go through all of Hoshido's elite troops in well-defended fortifications", then the latter route sounds like it should be harder to me.

[SnowFire]

First of all, let me make the disclaimer that when making changes, a writer...  makes changes.  So it's obviously a very weak criticism to say to an AU proposal "That's wrong and doesn't fit!  You changed it!" when the whole point was yes, changing something.

...okay, that out of the way, I think seeing Leo this way would be a bad change.  Leo is fairly consistently portrayed in all routes as, like, the janitor of good, quietly trying to ensure less carnage and use tricks to let Corrin get away with soft-heartedness, whether it means fake-killing people Corrin wants to spare or really killing off people who could leak word of Corrin's chumminess.  If anything the frustration is that he isn't more successful, as Iago & Hans just...  win and teleport around and do terrible stuff anyway.  He's just about the last person I'd pick to be possessed, and having him be the target would be just less interesting.  He's fine as-is.  Change other stuff first, IMO. 

Meanwhile, I think Takumi is a great choice for final villain, much better than Garon.  Now, the game undercuts itself by having real-ghost-Takumi forgive Corrin for ruining his life and invading Hoshido and killing him and his brother, but setting this aside...  Corrin did betray Hoshido in CQ.  Having a spooky revived edgy Hoshidan remind them of that fact is very thematic.  Like, this is the thing where the horror monster is someone who really was mistreated before, and now they've been revived and want over-the-top revenge.  Takumi's great for this.

There is so very much I'd want to change about Fates and rewrite, but I think the choice of final villains, and the role of Leo in BR and the role of Takumi in CQ, are both fine.

[Issac the Vast]

14 hours ago, SnowFire said:

First of all, let me make the disclaimer that when making changes, a writer...  makes changes.  So it's obviously a very weak criticism to say to an AU proposal "That's wrong and doesn't fit!  You changed it!" when the whole point was yes, changing something.

...okay, that out of the way, I think seeing Leo this way would be a bad change.  Leo is fairly consistently portrayed in all routes as, like, the janitor of good, quietly trying to ensure less carnage and use tricks to let Corrin get away with soft-heartedness, whether it means fake-killing people Corrin wants to spare or really killing off people who could leak word of Corrin's chumminess.  If anything the frustration is that he isn't more successful, as Iago & Hans just...  win and teleport around and do terrible stuff anyway.  He's just about the last person I'd pick to be possessed, and having him be the target would be just less interesting.  He's fine as-is.  Change other stuff first, IMO. 

Meanwhile, I think Takumi is a great choice for final villain, much better than Garon.  Now, the game undercuts itself by having real-ghost-Takumi forgive Corrin for ruining his life and invading Hoshido and killing him and his brother, but setting this aside...  Corrin did betray Hoshido in CQ.  Having a spooky revived edgy Hoshidan remind them of that fact is very thematic.  Like, this is the thing where the horror monster is someone who really was mistreated before, and now they've been revived and want over-the-top revenge.  Takumi's great for this.

There is so very much I'd want to change about Fates and rewrite, but I think the choice of final villains, and the role of Leo in BR and the role of Takumi in CQ, are both fine.

It’s alright. This here was written for fun.