Tier list!!!

[Lord Raven]

Earlier promotion and huge crit too... Matthew support is really awesome. Lyn's supports are all impractical. HM boosts are too cool to pass up, too.

Edited March 2, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[YokaiKnight]

No boosts in ENM, but still all that stuff makes sense.

[Lord Raven]

Yeah, forgot about the ENM bit.

[grandjackal]

If this HHM tier list is being made with efficient play in mind rather than ranks, shouldn't Canas skyrocket thanks to him being expensive to use not being a detriment? He himself might be average, but dark magic itself certainly isn't. Perhaps he's still average because he's still quite expensive and no supports...But Nosferatu and being another motherfucker who can use Luna should be taken to account, Fenrir might not matter much and Eclipse...not mattering at all, staff rank not being good all things consdered, but healing IS healing...

Again, just a thought, not saying he should. What do y'all think?

[Lord Raven]

His expense was never that large a detriment. And Dark magic above Flux kills his AS. With 7 base Con and 8 after promotion, Flux takes away 1 AS too.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[grandjackal]

His expense was never that large a detriment. And Dark magic above Flux kills his AS. With 7 base Con and 8 after promotion, Flux takes away 1 AS too.

Ok, forgot about that. No doubt he has a bit of a meh start up, but he gets better stats eventually that killing his speed doesn't matter for the spectacular tricks of dark magic. Later, he can just Nosferatank and help just walk through people. Luna for the hard-ass sage bosses too. Might weigh him down a bit much, but when they start showing up, he's built a healthy amount of resistance by then.

Maybe he won't skyrocket, but maybe a bit up? *goes to check the list again for others he could rise over*

Dorcas has good earlygame, but it's not great. He's bleh later, and I bet he's not healing or being self-sufficient or punching holes in enemy resistance either. I fail to see why Lyn's over either of them, and Florina...yeah, he might not be better than her, Lucius would be a stretch, and there's no getting over Geitz's general ability of being ok.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Mekkah]

Canas suffers the problem of low hp, def, avo and AS for a while, and his defensive problems aren't solved very quickly due to lack reliable supports. He has B Pent when Erk is not in play or has other options...that's not gonna happen often.

He can double SOME Shamans on Pirate Ship, for example, and those only have 4-6 AS. He can get the Steel Bow Archers and of course Steel Lance Pegs, but everyone doubles Steel Pegs, that's not much (plus other people actually ORKO them, while he does not). He usually isn't able to double generic Mercenaries, Nomads and non-speed-losing Cavaliers until promotion.

Though it must be noted that when talking unranked, promoting Canas ASAP becomes a very viable option. He effectively gains 4 AS. 14/1 Canas has 14 AS, for example, which doubles every single enemy in Kinship's Bond and afterwards, plus he gets staves. Of course competition is pretty fierce when it comes to Guiding Rings (all of the magic users are usable at the very least), but there's also two of them available. From there he only needs one or two speed level ups to get all the Mercs in FFO, though the Heroes are a bit much to ask.

[grandjackal]

Canas suffers the problem of low hp, def, avo and AS for a while, and his defensive problems aren't solved very quickly due to lack reliable supports. He has B Pent when Erk is not in play or has other options...that's not gonna happen often.

He can double SOME Shamans on Pirate Ship, for example, and those only have 4-6 AS. He can get the Steel Bow Archers and of course Steel Lance Pegs, but everyone doubles Steel Pegs, that's not much (plus other people actually ORKO them, while he does not). He usually isn't able to double generic Mercenaries, Nomads and non-speed-losing Cavaliers until promotion.

Though it must be noted that when talking unranked, promoting Canas ASAP becomes a very viable option. He effectively gains 4 AS. 14/1 Canas has 14 AS, for example, which doubles every single enemy in Kinship's Bond and afterwards, plus he gets staves. Of course competition is pretty fierce when it comes to Guiding Rings (all of the magic users are usable at the very least), but there's also two of them available. From there he only needs one or two speed level ups to get all the Mercs in FFO, though the Heroes are a bit much to ask.

I'm aware that he has no supports and he's got a bad start, but...Dark magic is still just outright fantastic. When does he get his first Nosferatu? It allows him to hit hard and be self sufficient, though he won't be Nosferatanking for a while if it comes early...

[Mekkah]

Fantastic is a large stretch. Sure, Flux has as much Mt as Erk's Thunder, but he cannot upgrade further without detriments, mostly being weighed down. Luna (Dragon's Gate) likely does less damage than Flux to most enemies other than late/endgame bosses and I guess Valkyries. Nosferatu is even heavier (base Canas has 3 AS with it, 14/1 Canas has 7), stops him from doubling and sometimes even gets him doubled, plus it has a better (?) shot at missing. The other Dark spells are outright crap and/or unavailable for significant time.

Looking at where he is now:

-Mid-

Florina

Dorcas

Lucius

Lyn

Legault

Fiora

Athos

Canas

Isadora

Moving him above Athos is always possible if someone is more help than hinder.

Moving above a flier is hard, though Fiora's stats are pretty bad, so he has a case here.

Legault is the hardest unit to tier ever, since the only unit you can comfortably put him below is Matthew.

Above Lyn...possible. Lyn's offense rules his for a while, then towards mid/late both ORKO everything, not taking into account Lyn's promo issues. And Canas will likely win durability, and has staves.

Lucius is AS vs durability.

Dorcas has a ton of concrete durability over Canas, and he shares Canas' earliest support partner and benefits more from it. Moreover, he can use Hand Axe for any "lol 1-2 range for defensive benefit", and then higher Mt weapons etc. He has troubles ORKOing sometime later though, whereas Canas starts doubling.

Florina is another flier.

[grandjackal]

Fantastic is a large stretch. Sure, Flux has as much Mt as Erk's Thunder, but he cannot upgrade further without detriments, mostly being weighed down. Luna (Dragon's Gate) likely does less damage than Flux to most enemies other than late/endgame bosses and I guess Valkyries. Nosferatu is even heavier (base Canas has 3 AS with it, 14/1 Canas has 7), stops him from doubling and sometimes even gets him doubled, plus it has a better (?) shot at missing. The other Dark spells are outright crap and/or unavailable for significant time.

Looking at where he is now:

-Mid-

Florina

Dorcas

Lucius

Lyn

Legault

Fiora

Athos

Canas

Isadora

Moving him above Athos is always possible if someone is more help than hinder.

Moving above a flier is hard, though Fiora's stats are pretty bad, so he has a case here.

Legault is the hardest unit to tier ever, since the only unit you can comfortably put him below is Matthew.

Above Lyn...possible. Lyn's offense rules his for a while, then towards mid/late both ORKO everything, not taking into account Lyn's promo issues. And Canas will likely win durability, and has staves.

Lucius is AS vs durability.

Dorcas has a ton of concrete durability over Canas, and he shares Canas' earliest support partner and benefits more from it. Moreover, he can use Hand Axe for any "lol 1-2 range for defensive benefit", and then higher Mt weapons etc. He has troubles ORKOing sometime later though, whereas Canas starts doubling.

Florina is another flier.

Most enemies are slow even in hard mode, and you wouldn't try to have Canas attack fast people anyways. If they're that fast anyways, he's quite better than most with range and heavy magic damage. If he takes a couple shots, he can Nosferatu someone. Luna sucks early, but it's pretty amazing later. You get two, one goes to Athos...Fenrir and Eclipse do suck though.

I could easily see him over Lyn. Lyn has a garbage promotion, stuck with swords throughout, has crap durability and needs weapons that weigh her down which is bad as her supports give minimum avoid at best so her speed and luck is all she can rely on to dodge things. Swords means she's in danger at all times. Not only does Canas have range and the choice to heal himself, he can heal others after promotion along with being pretty cool on his own. She's also bleh lategame for many many reasons while Canas just becomes mroe and more useful. Her only real flory is the time she has with the Mani Katti.

Above Lucius? Nuh-uh, monster offense + helping cool guys like Rayven and Priscilla > Being pretty good on his own.

[dondon151]

Most enemies are slow even in hard mode, and you wouldn't try to have Canas attack fast people anyways. If they're that fast anyways, he's quite better than most with range and heavy magic damage. If he takes a couple shots, he can Nosferatu someone. Luna sucks early, but it's pretty amazing later. You get two, one goes to Athos...Fenrir and Eclipse do suck though.

Reserving Canas for slow enemies makes him worse than PC units who can compete against fast enemies.

Your first Nosferatu comes in chapter 20. Your second might come in chapter 23x, but that's if you attack Kishuna before he escapes, which you probably don't want to do if you don't want to get raped by long-range magic. You're most likely not getting a second Nosferatu until chapter 32. So Canas has 20 uses of Nosferatu for 14 chapters. As for Luna, it is inferior to Flux damage-wise against non-magic generic enemy units. It's pretty awesome for taking on bosses, as there are some hard ones near the end of the game (Lloyd, Limstella), but by no means is Canas the only choice, so Luna is actually not a very significant advantage.

I could easily see him over Lyn. Lyn has a garbage promotion, stuck with swords throughout, has crap durability and needs weapons that weigh her down which is bad as her supports give minimum avoid at best so her speed and luck is all she can rely on to dodge things. Swords means she's in danger at all times. Not only does Canas have range and the choice to heal himself, he can heal others after promotion along with being pretty cool on his own. She's also bleh lategame for many many reasons while Canas just becomes mroe and more useful. Her only real flory is the time she has with the Mani Katti.

Lyn doesn't need swords that weigh her down because she has 45 uses of Mani Katti. And even if she did, she wouldn't mind losing 2 AS from a Killing Edge or 3 AS for a Silver Sword if she's still doubling enemies. Competition for a Heaven Seal should be considered, but it should not be automatically denied because Eliwood is not guaranteed to be fielded and a bow rank is helpful for dealing with WKs.

Lyn creams Canas in offense before he promotes. After he promotes, I wouldn't contest Canas > Lyn.

Above Lucius? Nuh-uh, monster offense + helping cool guys like Rayven and Priscilla > Being pretty good on his own.

Yeah, but Lucius has the crappiest durability ever. He risks getting OHKO'd by certain Steel Lance WKs in chapter 24 or something.

[grandjackal]

Reserving Canas for slow enemies makes him worse than PC units who can compete against fast enemies.

Your first Nosferatu comes in chapter 20. Your second might come in chapter 23x, but that's if you attack Kishuna before he escapes, which you probably don't want to do if you don't want to get raped by long-range magic. You're most likely not getting a second Nosferatu until chapter 32. So Canas has 20 uses of Nosferatu for 14 chapters. As for Luna, it is inferior to Flux damage-wise against non-magic generic enemy units. It's pretty awesome for taking on bosses, as there are some hard ones near the end of the game (Lloyd, Limstella), but by no means is Canas the only choice, so Luna is actually not a very significant advantage.

Is chapter 20 the dread isle, or kinship's bond? I forget...Either way, you don't get it too far from his join time. Certainly an option he has.

As for Luna, it's definitely better later, and is a godsend for endgame. Only thing better than 1 Luna user is 2 Luna users.

Lyn doesn't need swords that weigh her down because she has 45 uses of Mani Katti. And even if she did, she wouldn't mind losing 2 AS from a Killing Edge or 3 AS for a Silver Sword if she's still doubling enemies. Competition for a Heaven Seal should be considered, but it should not be automatically denied because Eliwood is not guaranteed to be fielded and a bow rank is helpful for dealing with WKs.

Lyn creams Canas in offense before he promotes. After he promotes, I wouldn't contest Canas > Lyn.

If Eliwood is being fielded, he's DEFINITELY getting it first, Canas has no problem waiting. He has the option to promote early to become better at some point and a bit worse later, but that just shows versatility. Without the first heaven seal, Lyn just goes from meh to blow.

Most can do more with more basic weaponry where she needs things like killer and silver. Her offense is good because of hte mani-katti, but it runs out eventually. Once it's gone, she's ugh, while Canas is doing cool stuff like countering at range and Nosferatanking. Once he promotes, it's just no contest.

Yeah, but Lucius has the crappiest durability ever. He risks getting OHKO'd by certain Steel Lance WKs in chapter 24 or something.

It gets boosted a bit with the Raven support (and they'll usually be around eachother), but yeah it blows. So you want like Lucius<Canas<Lyn? Sounds backwards to me.

[Rodykitty]

Eliwood probably benefits more from the Heaven Seal, but to say he always gets it I think is pushing it, especially when tiering Lyn vs. characters other than Eliwood.

Most can do more with more basic weaponry where she needs things like killer and silver.

I think Killer and Silver, while not basic weaponry, are a fair comparison because:

If he takes a couple shots, he can Nosferatu someone.

Luna sucks early, but it's pretty amazing later.

As for Luna, it's definitely better later, and is a godsend for endgame.

while Canas is doing cool stuff like countering at range and Nosferatanking.

Luna and Nosferatu aren't basic weapons either.

[grandjackal]

Luna and Nosferatu aren't basic weapons either.

Nevermind him having sole use of these weapons, but he can pick people at a distance with flux too, keeping him out of danger while Lyn has to frontline to do anything and gets her ass kicked.

Others would like those killer edges and silver swords too. Canas has all the dark magic in the world and no one so share it with until the final chapter (who only wants Luna anyways.).

[Balcerzak]

Just because he has a monopoly on use, doesn't mean they're fair game for an asymmetrical comparison. If you're considering funds ranking, using them still counts against him as much as using killer or silver would against Lyn. If you're not considering funds ranking (which I think was what prompted this discussion), than you can go all out and sell all your gems and buy enough killers for everyone. The fact that you can't buy more Nosferatu and Luna would count against him, rather than against Lyn, whose weapon upgrades are renewable, I would think.

Edited March 15, 2009 by Balcerzak

[grandjackal]

Just because he has a monopoly on use, doesn't mean they're fair game for an asymmetrical comparison. If you're considering funds ranking, using them still counts against him as much as using killer or silver would against Lyn. If you're not considering funds ranking (which I think was what prompted this discussion), than you can go all out and sell all your gems and buy enough killers for everyone. The fact that you can't buy more Nosferatu and Luna would count against him, rather than against Lyn, whose weapon upgrades are renewable, I would think.

Fair enough, but she's still getting her ass kicked. Canas is self-sufficient when he wants to be with Nosferatu, can do heavy damage to later coming bosses with high defenses, and flux is pretty awesome on it's own anyways. Canas isn't using them to do more damage he can't do, he's using them to recover or kill bosses in an easier fashion. Otherwise, he's just using flux and generally being a cool guy. If he's got nothing better to do, he can always pull out Eclipse for the hell of it. Hell, he could heavily damage Nergal with it before anyone else can, or the dragon...Yeah, it's very innaccurate, but he can still do it along with Athos. Who else can? 5 uses, he can just try to hit bosses that are annoying and do quite a bit of damage with it if he can manage to hit. Dark magic doesn't make him stronger, but more versatile really. Then he promotes and gets staffs.

Lyn on the other hand gets her ass kicked, weak with a weak weapon type as well, gains nothing but an even crappier weapon type, and generally being bleh without the mani-katti until killers and silvers become available that make her go from bleh to ok.

Killers and silvers don't just suddenly fall in your lap when you sell gems, you have to wait for them, along with them breaking easy. Gems give you lots of money, but not an infinite amount, you still have to equally equip the force as a whole. Canas gets most of his stuff for free, one spell coming pretty soon after join time and the other coming soon after, and only really wanting flux so he's not exactly eating through the use of these other two weapons. He has a long range option that sucks, but what's putting you in danger when you're 10 spaces away? At least he HAS an option.

[dondon151]

As for Luna, it's definitely better later, and is a godsend for endgame. Only thing better than 1 Luna user is 2 Luna users.

If Eliwood is being fielded, he's DEFINITELY getting it first, Canas has no problem waiting. He has the option to promote early to become better at some point and a bit worse later, but that just shows versatility. Without the first heaven seal, Lyn just goes from meh to blow.

Flux is better than Luna except against like 6 specific enemies before endgame. Luna's cool, but its advantage is greatly overestimated.

Most can do more with more basic weaponry where she needs things like killer and silver. Her offense is good because of hte mani-katti, but it runs out eventually. Once it's gone, she's ugh, while Canas is doing cool stuff like countering at range and Nosferatanking.

You pointed out that Mani Katti runs out, but you also assume that Canas runs around with pretty much the only Nosferatu that you're getting in the game before chapter 30. Double standard much? Don't forget that Mani Katti is more than 2 times as durable as Nosferatu and that it's only really necessary against armors and horsies, because Lyn would rather use higher MT and crit from Killing Edge against everyone else.

It gets boosted a bit with the Raven support (and they'll usually be around eachother), but yeah it blows. So you want like Lucius<Canas<Lyn? Sounds backwards to me.

I was just pointing out stuff, not really suggesting an order. I'd go Lucius > Canas > Lyn myself.

Fair enough, but she's still getting her ass kicked. Canas is self-sufficient when he wants to be with Nosferatu, can do heavy damage to later coming bosses with high defenses, and flux is pretty awesome on it's own anyways. Canas isn't using them to do more damage he can't do, he's using them to recover or kill bosses in an easier fashion. Otherwise, he's just using flux and generally being a cool guy. If he's got nothing better to do, he can always pull out Eclipse for the hell of it. Hell, he could heavily damage Nergal with it before anyone else can, or the dragon...Yeah, it's very innaccurate, but he can still do it along with Athos. Who else can? 5 uses, he can just try to hit bosses that are annoying and do quite a bit of damage with it if he can manage to hit. Dark magic doesn't make him stronger, but more versatile really. Then he promotes and gets staffs.

Dark magic can only make him as versatile as anyone else. Canas is not self-sufficient for very long with only 20 uses of Nosferatu for 14 chapters, and it should be noted that every boss from chapter 27 on (excluding final chapter and chapter 29 Linus, whom you'll probably not be facing) has higher resistance than defense, so magic is actually a disadvantage in that respect.

When you compare dark magic to melee weapon classes in general, dark magic lacks a killer equivalent (with Luna being the closest substitute), lacks any sort of effective weapons, lacks a weapon that gives massive WTA, and lacks reliable, easily accessible higher level magic (closest being Nosferatu). So, even without competition for dark magic, Canas still will be using Flux much of the time whereas melee PC units can be easily 1-rounding more difficult enemies with killer, reaver, and silver weapons.

On staves: Canas gets E staves after promotion. Healing is appreciated, but he doesn't get to do anything cool for a long while.

Killers and silvers don't just suddenly fall in your lap when you sell gems, you have to wait for them, along with them breaking easy. Gems give you lots of money, but not an infinite amount, you still have to equally equip the force as a whole.

There's the Silver Card as well, and you can sell stat boosters for 4000G each (stuff like Secret Books, Talismans, and Goddess Icons). 1 Killing Edge is 650G. I'm not seeing a funding issue here. The first shop that sells killer weapons is chapter 20, by the way.

He has a long range option that sucks, but what's putting you in danger when you're 10 spaces away? At least he HAS an option.

It's a really crappy, useless option. You said earlier that Canas can try Eclipse against bosses, but Eclipse essentially has 0 base hit after factoring in throne avoid bonuses, so that's pretty useless. What else are you going to use it against? Maybe walls if they have 100 HP in this game, but I don't recall any in HHM. If Canas is that far removed from an enemy, he'd probably rather use a staff than Eclipse.

A final note: selling Eclipse yields 2000G, Luna yields 2625G, and Fenrir yields 4500G. They can buy 3, 4, and 7 killer weapons, respectively (lances and axers are cheaper than swords), which will help every other melee unit on the team instead of Canas. Even if Canas has no competition for dark magic tomes, since items are easily converted to cash, Canas has competition for resources in general.

Edited March 15, 2009 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

Flux is better than Luna except against like 6 specific enemies before endgame. Luna's cool, but its advantage is greatly overestimated.

I'm aware, believe me, but it's still pretty damn cool those endgame bosses and some of the god sages earlier.

You pointed out that Mani Katti runs out, but you also assume that Canas runs around with pretty much the only Nosferatu that you're getting in the game before chapter 30. Double standard much? Don't forget that Mani Katti is more than 2 times as durable as Nosferatu and that it's only really necessary against armors and horsies, because Lyn would rather use higher MT and crit from Killing Edge against everyone else.

Great thing about Nosferatu is he's not reliant on it. He can just walk around and just sap health out of someone and do heavy damage in return, meaning he doesn't have to drag around a healer to keep him safe. Healer is sure to get experience anyways, there's plenty of enemies damaging others as is. He CAN Nosferatank with it for what it's worth, but he doesn't HAVE to to be useful.

I was just pointing out stuff, not really suggesting an order. I'd go Lucius > Canas > Lyn myself.

Oh? Huh...Well, what's your reasoning for it? I pretty much pointed out mine.

Dark magic can only make him as versatile as anyone else. Canas is not self-sufficient for very long with only 20 uses of Nosferatu for 14 chapters, and it should be noted that every boss from chapter 27 on (excluding final chapter and chapter 29 Linus, whom you'll probably not be facing) has higher resistance than defense, so magic is actually a disadvantage in that respect.

He's got good magic for Luna by then, and he doesn't have to rely on those 20 uses unless he's Nosferatanking (which is an option to what he can do, not his only use.)

When you compare dark magic to melee weapon classes in general, dark magic lacks a killer equivalent (with Luna being the closest substitute), lacks any sort of effective weapons, lacks a weapon that gives massive WTA, and lacks reliable, easily accessible higher level magic (closest being Nosferatu). So, even without competition for dark magic, Canas still will be using Flux much of the time whereas melee PC units can be easily 1-rounding more difficult enemies with killer, reaver, and silver weapons.

He...doesn't really need more than Flux, but Nosferatu allows him to tank in a form, Luna he can help boss kill with later, Eclipse for the hell of it. This is the case for all magic anyways, but all magic can't absorb health or ignore resistance.

On staves: Canas gets E staves after promotion. Healing is appreciated, but he doesn't get to do anything cool for a long while.

There's the Silver Card as well, and you can sell stat boosters for 4000G each (stuff like Secret Books, Talismans, and Goddess Icons). 1 Killing Edge is 650G. I'm not seeing a funding issue here. The first shop that sells killer weapons is chapter 20, by the way.

E staves is indeed weak, but it's better than getting Bows on promotion. Like I said, I wouldn't put him above Lucius. You'd have sold 2 red gems, 2 goddess icons and 2 secret books...first gem and book is 6000, used to basically fully equip your army. Then the other gem and stat boosters are would be 10,500. Killers are expensive and we didn't just suddenly forget Physics in the same chapter either. We got lots of money, but we still have to be considerate at this point. Later on we don't have to worry about money though.

It's a really crappy, useless option. You said earlier that Canas can try Eclipse against bosses, but Eclipse essentially has 0 base hit after factoring in throne avoid bonuses, so that's pretty useless. What else are you going to use it against? Maybe walls if they have 100 HP in this game, but I don't recall any in HHM. If Canas is that far removed from an enemy, he'd probably rather use a staff than Eclipse.

Not all bosses are on thrones (Ursula, Denning, the final bosses off the top of my head). Yeah it sucks, but why not use it? Besides, you stated his low staff rank, what kind of staff would he be using exactly?

A final note: selling Eclipse yields 2000G, Luna yields 2625G, and Fenrir yields 4500G. They can buy 3, 4, and 7 killer weapons, respectively (lances and axers are cheaper than swords), which will help every other melee unit on the team instead of Canas. Even if Canas has no competition for dark magic tomes, since items are easily converted to cash, Canas has competition for resources in general.

We can sell Eclipse if we want and no one will miss Fenrir. You stated money's not a problem. Sell these 2, and money really isn't a problem. I think we can let Canas keep a couple spells to himself. We can give Lyn her resources too. Her resources don't save her from getting her ass kicked. Canas's stuff can make him do various things, and he won't necessarily need all of them anyways (Eclipse, Fenrir).

[dondon151]

Great thing about Nosferatu is he's not reliant on it. He can just walk around and just sap health out of someone and do heavy damage in return, meaning he doesn't have to drag around a healer to keep him safe. Healer is sure to get experience anyways, there's plenty of enemies damaging others as is. He CAN Nosferatank with it for what it's worth, but he doesn't HAVE to to be useful.

Canas is reliant on Nosferatu if he wants to survive enemy phases on his own. The point is, using Nosferatu on player phase to recover HP is great and all, but that's easily accomplished by a healer, and using Nosferatu on enemy phase means that he can be burning through like 5 uses in a single enemy phase. Indeed, HP recover helps out when it's needed, but I wouldn't go so far as letting him "tank."

I never said that Canas was always reliant on Nosferatu. But he'll only be reaping those benefits until those 20 uses run out, whereas Mani Katti's benefits extend for more than twice as long and Lyn could just switch to a Killing Edge for practically the same thing against every non-armored, non-mounted enemy.

Oh? Huh...Well, what's your reasoning for it? I pretty much pointed out mine.

I'd say that Lyn's late promotion and overall shitty durability without a good 2-range option puts her below Canas, even if she leads in availability and offense before Canas promotes. After Canas promotes, he'll be beating her offensively since he doubles almost everything and he'll have staff utility. Against Lucius, it's similar, but Lucius doesn't have a late promotion and is always beating Canas in offense, even with light magic having less MT than dark magic. He also has viable support partners whereas Canas has none, and he gets C staves upon promotion instead of E.

He's got good magic for Luna by then, and he doesn't have to rely on those 20 uses unless he's Nosferatanking (which is an option to what he can do, not his only use.)

Good magic or not, Flux wins in damage against enemies that have less than 8 res, which is every generic melee enemy in the game.

He...doesn't really need more than Flux, but Nosferatu allows him to tank in a form, Luna he can help boss kill with later, Eclipse for the hell of it. This is the case for all magic anyways, but all magic can't absorb health or ignore resistance.

I doubt it. Against enemies he can't double or against enemies he can't 2HKO, he really wants that killer/silver version of dark magic.

You'd have sold 2 red gems, 2 goddess icons and 2 secret books...first gem and book is 6000, used to basically fully equip your army. Then the other gem and stat boosters are would be 10,500. Killers are expensive and we didn't just suddenly forget Physics in the same chapter either. We got lots of money, but we still have to be considerate at this point. Later on we don't have to worry about money though.

I don't think your math is right, you should be getting 21000G total from those items, more than enough to buy an adequate supply of killer weapons with only a portion of that money. Let's not forget either that Physic is accessible in a chapter later on in which you get another 10000G in funds, so killer weapons are a higher priority in chapter 20. I also can't imagine many Physics being necessary, as their utility is a bit overrated and Heal/Mend serve just fine in many cases.

Not all bosses are on thrones (Ursula, Denning, the final bosses off the top of my head). Yeah it sucks, but why not use it? Besides, you stated his low staff rank, what kind of staff would he be using exactly?

So sell Eclipse for those 3 killer weapons. Canas should be healing if he can't reach an enemy.

Edited March 16, 2009 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

Canas is reliant on Nosferatu if he wants to survive enemy phases on his own. The point is, using Nosferatu on player phase to recover HP is great and all, but that's easily accomplished by a healer, and using Nosferatu on enemy phase means that he can be burning through like 5 uses in a single enemy phase. Indeed, HP recover helps out when it's needed, but I wouldn't go so far as letting him "tank."

There's probably plenty of people your healers can heal, I doubt they'd mind him sucking down some health from some poor bastard while doing some nice damage on top of it. At least it shows Canas can be on his own to some extent, we can't leave Lyn anywhere without getting destroyed. Fine, he might not exactly be tanking with it, but at least he doesn't need a lot of babying with it.

I never said that Canas was always reliant on Nosferatu. But he'll only be reaping those benefits until those 20 uses run out, whereas Mani Katti's benefits extend for more than twice as long and Lyn could just switch to a Killing Edge for practically the same thing against every non-armored, non-mounted enemy.

Canas needs Nosferatu to sap health, Lyn needs it to have some form of offense on units she still needs to double to kill even when using it. She might have double the weapon use of Nosferatu with Mani-Katti, but she's eating through it twice as fast. She's also eating a counter when using it too. Canas uses Nosferatu like "hmhmhm, oh I got hit! *sucks health from someone* much better. *returns to using flux* " while Lyn pretty much needs the Mani-Katti to be able to fight...well, anything really. She still gets her ass kicked anyways.

I'd say that Lyn's late promotion and overall shitty durability without a good 2-range option puts her below Canas, even if she leads in availability and offense before Canas promotes. After Canas promotes, he'll be beating her offensively since he doubles almost everything and he'll have staff utility. Against Lucius, it's similar, but Lucius doesn't have a late promotion and is always beating Canas in offense, even with light magic having less MT than dark magic. He also has viable support partners whereas Canas has none, and he gets C staves upon promotion instead of E.

Yeah, pretty much what I'm saying, though I guess at this point I'm just trying to put icing on a cake that already has icing on it. As bad as Lucius's bad durability is, his offense and supports just make him a different class than Canas. C in staves doesn't help either, that and his supports destroy his luck concerns (that and having supports is a nice plus).

Good magic or not, Flux wins in damage against enemies that have less than 8 res, which is every generic melee enemy in the game.

Trust me, I wouldn't dream of using Luna on basic enemies, but some BEG to be Luna'd, bosses to be exact. Luna still has it's uses, and it's effects are profound.

I doubt it. Against enemies he can't double or against enemies he can't 2HKO, he really wants that killer/silver version of dark magic.

Then what the hell are we bashing Fenrir for? Weighs him down like a motherfucker, but he hits pretty damn hard with it. Since he'll be two spaces away from an enemy he weakened severely, the guy we're having finish off the prick will be next to Canas anyways and can re-equip him with flux before killing said enemy. He might not be killing, but he's helping hte guy finishing off said enemy by getting a kill without either of them eating a counter.

I don't think your math is right, you should be getting 21000G total from those items, more than enough to buy an adequate supply of killer weapons with only a portion of that money. Let's not forget either that Physic is accessible in a chapter later on in which you get another 10000G in funds, so killer weapons are a higher priority in chapter 20. I also can't imagine many Physics being necessary, as their utility is a bit overrated and Heal/Mend serve just fine in many cases.

So sell Eclipse for those 3 killer weapons. Canas should be healing if he can't reach an enemy.

My math might be a bit off, but you have to keep in mind WHEN that money comes in. Weapons aren't gonna last you from game start to the end of dread isle. A nice portion of that is going into restoring your army's inventory at earlygame. It still doesn't stop these weapons from being expensive (since ya know, we get most of Canas's equipment for free, thank you Matthew and Legault). Besides, why WOULDN'T we want physics earlier? Next chapter is a fog of war where we'd like our fragile healers to be a bit back as to not get ravaged by wyverns, Kinship's Bond just has a crapload of enemies everywhere so the healers wouldn't mind having the flexibility of physic. I forget what chapter comes next, but 2 of the next chapters already giving you a good reason to have physics on hand is a nice encouragement.

Though that we're talking of Lucius, why isn't he higher? Mad offense, great supports with AWESOME characters, C in staves...his only problem is his durability, he's got the speed and supports to make him ok at dodging. He can't take too many hits, but he murders whatever he's targeting and can still counter a single hit (along with murdering the mutherfucker dumb enough to do that). How he's below Dorcas is beyond me. Florina might have flight, but she's weak, has garbage supports and her durability isn't much better.

Edited March 16, 2009 by Grandjackal

[dondon151]

There's probably plenty of people your healers can heal, I doubt they'd mind him sucking down some health from some poor bastard while doing some nice damage on top of it. At least it shows Canas can be on his own to some extent, we can't leave Lyn anywhere without getting destroyed. Fine, he might not exactly be tanking with it, but at least he doesn't need a lot of babying with it.

OK, good, I'll leave this here.

Canas needs Nosferatu to sap health, Lyn needs it to have some form of offense on units she still needs to double to kill even when using it. She might have double the weapon use of Nosferatu with Mani-Katti, but she's eating through it twice as fast. She's also eating a counter when using it too. Canas uses Nosferatu like "hmhmhm, oh I got hit! *sucks health from someone* much better. *returns to using flux* " while Lyn pretty much needs the Mani-Katti to be able to fight...well, anything really. She still gets her ass kicked anyways.

Lyn can use Killing Edge over Mani Katti and would actually rather be using the former in most situations. I think Steel Sword suffices against fighters and mages. Also consider that Canas needs to have someone equip Flux for him for enemy phase, so Nosferatu can be used on player phase but it can't always be used efficiently.

Trust me, I wouldn't dream of using Luna on basic enemies, but some BEG to be Luna'd, bosses to be exact. Luna still has it's uses, and it's effects are profound.

You specifically mentioned bosses and nothing else. I don't see how it's profound. Killer weapons actually work just as well, and are much more accessible.

Then what the hell are we bashing Fenrir for? Weighs him down like a motherfucker, but he hits pretty damn hard with it. Since he'll be two spaces away from an enemy he weakened severely, the guy we're having finish off the prick will be next to Canas anyways and can re-equip him with flux before killing said enemy. He might not be killing, but he's helping hte guy finishing off said enemy by getting a kill without either of them eating a counter.

I probably should have included "respectively" in that statement. Fenrir doesn't help him 1-round anything, and I'd rather buy killer weapons to have a chance at 1-rounding those enemies than to waste an expensive tome on them.

My math might be a bit off, but you have to keep in mind WHEN that money comes in. Weapons aren't gonna last you from game start to the end of dread isle. A nice portion of that is going into restoring your army's inventory at earlygame. It still doesn't stop these weapons from being expensive.

You also get 5000G in cash money from 13x, which covers restocking costs pre-Silver Card.

Besides, why WOULDN'T we want physics earlier? Next chapter is a fog of war where we'd like our fragile healers to be a bit back as to not get ravaged by wyverns, Kinship's Bond just has a crapload of enemies everywhere so the healers wouldn't mind having the flexibility of physic. I forget what chapter comes next, but 2 of the next chapters already giving you a good reason to have physics on hand is a nice encouragement.

I had no problems at all doing those chapters without Physic, and the player only needs enough Physics to be able to exploit their utility, not to abuse them every turn. With that in mind, the cost of two Physic staves doesn't really hamper the ability to stock up on killers. Also, chapter 22 has a secret shop and also has 10000G - buying Physics in chapter 20 is only helpful for chapter 21 and half of chapter 22.

Though that we're talking of Lucius, why isn't he higher? Mad offense, great supports with AWESOME characters, C in staves...his only problem is his durability, he's got the speed and supports to make him ok at dodging. He can't take too many hits, but he murders whatever he's targeting and can still counter a single hit (along with murdering the mutherfucker dumb enough to do that). How he's below Dorcas is beyond me. Florina might have flight, but she's weak, has garbage supports and her durability isn't much better.

"He can't take too many hits" is an understatement. He can't ever take more than 1 hit, and depending on how much he's used, he may even be OHKO'd by Steel Lance WKs (he's definitely OHKO'd by Silver Lance WLs in later chapters). Raven support actually gives very little avo and Priscilla support gives none; his only avo is coming from his good speed, which means it's not enough to rely on. He's not available in the earliest parts of the game where Dorcas is, and Dorcas performs better there as well with durability that can be counted on. Florina fills a unique role and is pretty damn important in getting certain chapters cleared more efficiently (17, 17x, 18, 19x, etc.), and she performs decently assuming levels from LM.

[grandjackal]

Lyn can use Killing Edge over Mani Katti and would actually rather be using the former in most situations. I think Steel Sword suffices against fighters and mages. Also consider that Canas needs to have someone equip Flux for him for enemy phase, so Nosferatu can be used on player phase but it can't always be used efficiently.

Again, chances are Nosferatu is being used AFTER a battle where they're tanking down stragglers. He has to get hit by being in a battle.

You specifically mentioned bosses and nothing else. I don't see how it's profound. Killer weapons actually work just as well, and are much more accessible.

They don't have range aside from killer bows, do they? They also don't completely ignore defenses either.

I probably should have included "respectively" in that statement. Fenrir doesn't help him 1-round anything, and I'd rather buy killer weapons to have a chance at 1-rounding those enemies than to waste an expensive tome on them.

Yeah, pretty much. Still, if he needs some help...he can use a bit of it, THEN we can sell it. But yeah, otherwise we're selling it.

You also get 5000G in cash money from 13x, which covers restocking costs pre-Silver Card.

...Had forgot about that village AND the silver card...;;>>

I had no problems at all doing those chapters without Physic, and the player only needs enough Physics to be able to exploit their utility, not to abuse them every turn. With that in mind, the cost of two Physic staves doesn't really hamper the ability to stock up on killers. Also, chapter 22 has a secret shop and also has 10000G - buying Physics in chapter 20 is only helpful for chapter 21 and half of chapter 22.

They then can help for those 2 chapters. If they aren't a problem, how's this for a thought? Gets your healers mucho experience 1 and a half chapters earlier. THAT doesn't hurt, now does it?

"He can't take too many hits" is an understatement. He can't ever take more than 1 hit, and depending on how much he's used, he may even be OHKO'd by Steel Lance WKs (he's definitely OHKO'd by Silver Lance WLs in later chapters). Raven support actually gives very little avo and Priscilla support gives none; his only avo is coming from his good speed, which means it's not enough to rely on. He's not available in the earliest parts of the game where Dorcas is, and Dorcas performs better there as well with durability that can be counted on. Florina fills a unique role and is pretty damn important in getting certain chapters cleared more efficiently (17, 17x, 18, 19x, etc.), and she performs decently assuming levels from LM.

Oh man, forgot he has Light affinity, not Ice...x.x Yeah, nevermind me then.

[dondon151]

They don't have range aside from killer bows, do they? They also don't completely ignore defenses either.

Neither of those really matter. Near the end of the game all enemy bosses can attack 1-2 range (except for Denning and the Final dudes), so Luna's advantage there is null. That extra 30 crit coupled with crit from supports lets melee units match Luna in damage. For example, Harken 1RKOs Limstella with luck using a Killer Axe. Canas can probably do the same with the same prerequisites. This goes to show that Luna is not that special of a boss killer, though its effectiveness is undeniable.

[grandjackal]

Neither of those really matter. Near the end of the game all enemy bosses can attack 1-2 range (except for Denning and the Final dudes), so Luna's advantage there is null. That extra 30 crit coupled with crit from supports lets melee units match Luna in damage. For example, Harken 1RKOs Limstella with luck using a Killer Axe. Canas can probably do the same with the same prerequisites. This goes to show that Luna is not that special of a boss killer, though its effectiveness is undeniable.

Oh yeah, those SAGES with ANIMA magic and Canas has decent resistance and HP. He's not missing, he's doing nice damage a hit and is the safer option by a CLEAR margin. Anyone can get lucky, but Canas is safe. Jerme's not doing shit to him and...his only real trouble with bosses is like Kenneth and the axe brother in the desert with the hand axe.