H5 Tier list topic

[Dat Nick]

Man, just because I play differently, doesn't mean I'm an idiot. I beat it my own way.

What you don't realize is that this is a tier topic, i.e we don't care which way you beat it unless efficency is aimed for. Please leave until you can grasp this concept.

Since speed does matter, and as Colonel said avoid/accuracy is important when the usual avoid is about 10

*facepalm*

Edited July 6, 2009 by Tino
Image macro editted out

[Tino]

No image macros and worthless posts, please. B2BD's image macro deleted and Colonel M's post deleted entirely.

[Colonel M]

Alright alright, the point is that the Avoid thing was sarcasm.

Also, I am not arguing Armor Knight -> General Bord. I have no clue why you brought it up as I was arguing the slightly safer route: Hunter -> General Bord. Now look at this setup carefully:

Hunter -> General Bord

I will admit that it isn't the greatest of setups, but it does have a passing grade. He does have AK -> General to work upon as well though it grows a bit slower than a Darros:

AK -> General

Only problem with this setup is true: no AS whatsoever. In return, there's the better turnout upon promotion.

So, which upon the two does everyone think is better? I'd say Hunter -> Hero is slightly inferior due to simply being too slow once Braves arrive, so the second route would be finding something with Defense. I can see him over Etzel at least because Etzel has many moments of being ORKOed even by C18 (IIRC) and he needs a good amount of levels to catch up. Unfortunately his 40% Spd growth isn't enough to accomodate him to doubling anything, so his last options are chip damage and Staff utility.

[Capracanis]

Alright alright, the point is that the Avoid thing was sarcasm.

Also, I am not arguing Armor Knight -> General Bord. I have no clue why you brought it up as I was arguing the slightly safer route: Hunter -> General Bord.

I undersand. I was just trying to point out that if you reclass him at lv 20 from Hunter to Knight, then reclass him as General he'll get a 10hp and 4spd boots thanks to the promotion. Not that it really matters since the reclass after the promotion from Hunter-> Horseman will be pretty much the same.

Also, in terms of tiers, if the character has virtually no speed and even has 0% in speed reclassed as a Knight/General, the why the hell are we trying to mvoe him up? He's clearly going to get doubled and quaded when braves show up. In my opinion, having C lv Axes when he stats means if you use him, keep him as an Axe user so he'll reach LvA Axes before anyone else and get the much needed weapon triangle bonus. Even at C he still gets a 5% accuracy bonus. At B it's 10 and A is 15 and God Damn, he needs it. Like I said, to if you're going to use him, get him a Killer Axe from the Online shop and let him rape shit. Other than that, he should, reclassed, stay as he is. The only plus side to making him a hunter is that in Normal, he actually survives the arena as a Hunter. I mean, we'd all love to make him a merc but in H5 can he really survive that that pitiful ammount of Hp? Ife ha came with a little more, likie Barst does, I'd gladly support you in raising him in the list.

Second, I'd agree with Hunter -> Hero. They get +1 to Str and +4 to both Spd and Skl with no negatives on the reclass which is very, very sexy.. That's pretty much what most people do to Wolf and Sedgar anyway because leveling them is just...a real bitch in H5. The only issue with that is that if you decide to 20/20 him, or even promote him at Lv10, you're going to lose the Bow WExp and his weapon stats will be...decent at best. That's why I'd prefer it if you actually thought about keeping him a Fighter/Pirate so he can actually have the ability to use a broadder array of Axes early in-game.

I mean, shit, if you're going to argue anything, I'd argue getting Radd moved up on the list. He may come late but so does Caesar (who's name is spelled wrong on the list, by the way) and he's Up-Mid while Radd is Low. There's only a 2 lv difference. Have Radd go in for the kill on a few horsemen on that level and He'll make it up there fast. Failing that, there are a good number of priests who Exp is wasted on other character that could be used on him. Radd's defence and defence growth is significalty higher than other Myrmidons and he makes an awesome Paladin or D.Kn on a reclass. Sure, you can bitch that he's got a low weapon level upon getting him. I do. The solution to that is use him. God knows you need all the damage you can get. For those fucking Horseman have Radd atk them, even though he'll only do about 2-5 damage.

Sure, his accuracy sucks but it does as a Swdmstr too.

Myrmidon->D.Knight (Radd)

Save you the time:

Radd

(Average/Possible Max)

HP---48.6 /60

Str---23.7 /26

Mag--1.0 /20

Skl---17.3 /26

Spd--21.8 /23

Lck---16.2 /30

Def---20.5 /30

Res---3.0 /21

I'd also argue that Paola (Palla?) should be about as high as Catria. Sure, her Speed and Luck suck ass, but up reclass and changed into a Paladin or D.Kn, her defence Growth is 30% and is kick-ass. Failing that, you get about what...5 Speedwings in total (3 from S.Shop) so that's about 10 Spd right there if you don't mind using them. I'm not saying to waste them but shit. The sisters are the two most useful characters in the game.

Est seems to be named after a direction on a compass and is weak and therefore was adopted and does not deserve the title of Pegasus Sister.

Peg.Kn-> Paladin (Palla)

Luck is shit and the Speed could be better but the Defence is better than most (Avf Def: 19). I'd like to see the other Cavaliers->Paladins come close to that. The only one who does is Matthis, who's other stats are absolutely horrible (save for HP and DEF), but the early join gives you time to build him, despite those flaws. He does make a fair D.Kn, though but only slightly.

Cain's avg Def: 15

Abel's avg Def: 15

Matthis' avg Def: 19

Vyland's avg Def: 13

Roshea's avg Def: 15

Hardin's avg Def: 15

EDIT: Just took a look at Bord's Speed Growth and for some reason, the growth rate sheets I printed from this website (SF) has his Speed as Knight/General listed at 0%, whereas it is in actuality 10%. Sorry if that confusion have caused problems. A minor error.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Capracanis

[Colonel M]

Perhaps you don't quite understand how Armor Knights -> Generals work.

I will admit the following: their Spd is shit and their earlygame is about the same as everyone else's with better and worse scenarios. Sometimes the low AS leaves them to being quadrupled, making Hunter -> General a little questionable; however, that does not exactly mean that it should be ruled out? Take this for an example: would you rather have a unit that doubles units and gets 2RKOed or a unit that is either impervious or close to it? Defense is a stat that is great to have in H5, and it's unfortunate that excluding Generals and DracoKnights that it is usually nonexistant. Even if they are quadruled, most Generals have a good amount of HP / Def to accomodate it slightly. Some are so close that all they need is a Speedwing and most of the chaos is over or even a DracoShield to beef up the Def stat even more.

Bord definitely isn't the best barrell of the lot, but he should have a chance in both the Hunter and Armor Knight setups because most people that are Heroes double; something that Bord does not. Let me rephrase that: late-game wise and almost consistently.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Colonel M

[Capracanis]

Perhaps you don't quite understand how Armor Knights -> Generals work.

I understand how they work and just edited my post. You can see it as it is marked with EDIT: in bold.

EDIT: Just took a look at Bord's Speed Growth and for some reason, the growth rate sheets I printed from this website (SF) has his Speed as Knight/General listed at 0%, whereas it is in actuality 10%. Sorry if that confusion have caused problems. A minor error.

The thing is, I never used them much in this game because up to about H3, they're virtually useless because the defence isn't needed. I only really ever used Drag b/c his Speed could get up to anywhere from 7-14 by the time was lv20. My only issue with him is that his Str was shit, which made him useless as a meatshield because he wouldn't kill the thing that was hitting him for more. I had to place a healer behind him to heal him which stopped an archer or any other ranged unit from being behing him for support so msot of my knight, who followed the same general path that Draug did basically became a liability.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Capracanis

[Colonel M]

Nope, he should have a 0% Spd growth as an Armor Knight General. But does Speed really matter when you see "No Damage" by mid to lategame?

[Capracanis]

Nope, he should have a 0% Spd growth as an Armor Knight General. But does Speed really matter when you see "No Damage" by mid to lategame?

The FEPlanet chart has his Speed listed as 10% in your Hunter->General link. His Spd as a Hunter is 25.

EDIT: FEPlanet has his Spped as Hunter listed at 10%, and not the 25 that's on the SF growth-rate list. If that is 25% true than maybe he should be a bit higher.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Capracanis

[Rodykitty]

Another possible slippery slope.

[Colonel M]

Trust me: Hunter is 25% Spd growth.

Bord's base Spd growht is 0. The Hunter's base Spd growth is 25%.

0 + 25 = 25%.

Another possible slippery slope.

AK -> General Bord I'm assuming?

Edited July 7, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

No. I'm thinking along the lines of "both Gordon & Matthis suck."

[Colonel M]

No. I'm thinking along the lines of "both Gordon & Matthis suck."

I see.

Alright, now I just want to wait for Wolf to argue Etzel > Bord since AK -> General Bord can be near-immune to Braves at least and has time to work himself up. Because I think Bord has a "okay" chance of slipping over Linde at least, but obviously will work from bottom to top.

Edited July 7, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

I think it'll have to do with how much trouble Bord is going through to get to the state of tankiness or near immunity, and whether healing & utility is more valuable than that or not.

[Capracanis]

The FEPlanet chart has his Speed listed as 10% in your Hunter->General link. His Spd as a Hunter is 25.

EDIT: FEPlanet has his Spped as Hunter listed at 10%, and not the 25 that's on the SF growth-rate list. If that is 25% true than maybe he should be a bit higher.

Trust me: Hunter is 25% Spd growth.

Bord's base Spd growht is 0. The Hunter's base Spd growth is 25%.

0 + 25 = 25%.

AK -> General Bord I'm assuming?

Maybe someone should alert FEPlanet as to this error...

[Colonel M]

I see the mistake. You're looking at the top where it lists his Fighter growths. Though if you look further down the line, it has his Spd growing 25% (it looks like 30 sometimes due to them rounding the stat).

[Rodykitty]

Bord's class growths: HP Str Mag Ski Spd Lck Def Res
Knight / General 	70 	30 	0 	50 	0 	35 	40 	0
Mercenary / Hero 	70 	35 	0 	55 	20 	35 	15 	0
Fighter / Warrior 	90 	55 	0 	45 	10 	35 	10 	0
Hunter / Horseman 	50 	35 	0 	45 	25 	35 	15 	0
Pirate / Berserker 	90 	55 	0 	45 	10 	35 	10 	0
Dark Mage / Sorcerer 	30 	0 	20 	50 	20 	35 	0 	20

[Colonel M]

It's kind of been dead but w/e. I'll just go ahead with AK -> General Bord.

Here's how I'd sum up earlygame: like Darros, get ready to toss Javelins. Go up close sometimes, but the key point is just like every other unit tread wisely. Archers aren't going to tear him apart that well. Bord has a 70% HP growth and a 40% Def growth. Now, one might say "ohnoes not Darros" and you'd be slightly correct. Bord can't pull off an early promotion like Darros, but this isn't the point. I shall post when he gets what Def number and the HP stat he'll normally have. These are rounded up BTW when 50% or higher. The () are the specific Def numbers.

3/0 - 19 HP / 13 Def

4/0 - 20 HP / 14 Def (13.5)

7/0 - 22 HP / 15 Def (14.7)

9/0 - 23 HP / 16 Def (15.5)

12/0 - 25 HP / 17 Def (16.7)

14/0 - 27 HP / 18 Def (17.5)

17/0 - 29 HP / 19 Def (18.7) (Do not pay attention to the FE averages here. This is his correct Def stat. Not sure on the HP)

19/0 - 30 HP / 20 Def (19.5)

Alright, this should give a pretty clear picture. Darros stops at about 16/0 IIRC, but to prove a point these specific numbers aren't bad. If anything, they're pretty good for Bord here. Because FEPlanet doesn't line up the growths correctly (I don't know why but it's like they don't accept the unit capping the stat), you'll have to take my word over theirs slightly. Really, I'm not wrong: do it yourself. He has 13.1 Def by 4/0, then add .4 each level.

I wouldn't say that he's bad either. He has a decent start on Str and at least grows 30%. If you even worried about it (like you ever would). he's got a 50% Skill growth, which amounts to accurate tosses when using Javelins. That isn't the point though.

I can't say that Bord's start is that bad. There is that problem with 0 base Spd, but in reality it wasn't like Darros was escaping much more. Just Armor Knights, which neither should be facing (leave that to Mages and Armorslayer units, Hammer-time it). I'd say he's doing alright in comparison to the team so far.

I'll give Bord about 20/3 when the hipster Etzel arrives.

20/3 Bord (Silver Lance): 42 HP, 32 Atk, 4 AS, lolHit, lolCrit and whatnot, 25 Def (24.8)

(Javelin): 26 Atk

(Ridersbane): +11 to 17 Str, +29 to 17 Str when effective.

That's just to give you a clear picture.

I'd say it's Bord's mid to lategame advantage of tanking shit versus Etzel's healing and not demanding a major amount of levels to heal. His chip damage is alright with Excalibur, but it's probably broken at this point and needs fixing. On top of that, he'll lack doubling capabilities and Bord will have Bows and Ridersbane to mitigate the Res-Def lead somewhat. Don't forget about DragonPikes where Etzel can't even touch a Mage Mamkute. Anyway, Etzel's main lead chapter-wise is probably the Helltower, but I don't see Etzel slaughtering Bord. In fact, I could see it as the other way around.

[Dat Nick]

Didn't we lift Mac out of bottom tier at one point?

[grandjackal]

Yes, due to being able to become useful as a Dark Mage.

...Also, Bord's not rising above Etzel. The end.

[Colonel M]

...Also, Bord's not rising above Etzel. The end.

And why is this, exactly? Specifics?

[Rodykitty]

Didn't we lift Mac out of bottom tier at one point?

We didn't think he was better than Astoria/Midia.

[grandjackal]

And why is this, exactly? Specifics?

What's Bord doing that everyone else isn't doing? Healing? OHKOing wyverns? No, he's being rather underwhelming. Etzel doesn' need the resources Bord does to pull off this kind of magickery.

[Rodykitty]

Bord is doing two things Etzel is not:

1. Lategame tank

2. Being a possible liability early game being trained as Armor Knight

I honestly don't think early Armor Knights are worth it if it hurts efficiency to get the lategame tank.

[grandjackal]

So you agree with me?

[Rodykitty]

Maybe. These are very unlike units.

Bord is also winning every parameter as Hunter -> Warrior, including the whole Dragon Knight killing part (well, I don't know if he's *winning* there, but at least he's doing so without rare weapons).

Edited July 9, 2009 by Chainey