H5 Tier list topic

[_____]

Most of the time, we're using a smaller team, as it is more efficient. The amount of units that require Master Seals when using this small team is not as much as you seem to think it is, and thus, the cost of taking a Master Seal is nowhere near as steep as you say it is.

Keep in mind though if you want to do an H5 run as efficient as possible there are many candidates that are way better that join un-promoted for that small team.

I don't understand what you're getting at. Could you clarify, please?

[Rodykitty]

Not needing a Master Seal wins when the unit your competing with has to go Cleric just to "avoid" a suck period (have fun poking stuff with Iron against enemies with gigantic HP values and getting doubled by everything attempting to use Steel), while you're helpful to the team immediately and not demanding the team compensate to have your existence, you're simply useful immediately and an extra hand in doing damage.

I don't understand what you're getting at. Could you clarify, please?

He means the opportunity cost in taking a Master Seal over another unit that would make your team stronger. Don't quote the guideline on it, since it only applies to two units wanting a Master Seal (which good luck to Roshe-like characters winning in these comparisons, they will need it).

[_____]

Not needing a Master Seal wins when the unit your competing with has to go Cleric just to "avoid" a suck period (have fun poking stuff with Iron against enemies with gigantic HP values and getting doubled by everything attempting to use Steel)

They suck as any class but Curate. This has been established. What I want to know is what does that have to do with anything? I'm not saying "Etzel has to stick with Sorcerer because he sucks as a Berserker" because, frankly, it's an awful argument. Their best unpromoted class is Curate, so they will go Curate. No penalty should be assigned because they're bad at everything else.

while you're helpful to the team immediately and not demanding the team compensate to have your existence, you're

simply useful immediately and an extra hand in doing damage.

So, being, at worst, a neutral as a Curate is forcing the team to compensate for your existence? What kind of backwards logic is that? They beat Etzel in everything but tome rank and Magic when he joins. Everything.

If you want to play that game, then I demand that the list goes as follows:

Zagaro Tier:

Zagaro

Wolf

Chainey Tier:

Chainey

Top Tier:

Every prepromote in the game

Mid:

Marth

Julian

Jake

Beck

Tiki

Bantu

Rickard

Low:

Every unpromoted character in the game

Because not taking a Master Seal obviously beats offensive leads, defensive leads, more availability, and even a higher staff rank, at least according to you.

He means the opportunity cost in taking a Master Seal over another unit that would make your team stronger. Don't quote the guideline on it, since it only applies to two units wanting a Master Seal (which good luck to Roshe-like characters winning in these comparisons, they will need it).

This "opportunity cost" of taking a Master Seal is just kicking Lower Tier units while they are down. I mean, fuck, the opportunity cost of them using a Master Seal is so huge that they'll never get one. I mean, that's 1250 gold that we could get right now, why are we even wasting it on Vyland/Matthis? Why are we even talking about these guys in the first place? Let's do a Zagaro solo!

I'm not saying that there isn't an opportunity cost involved. To say that the opportunity cost on Low Tier units using a Master Seal is higher just because they're lower and that means that not taking a Master Seal > everything is just bullshit, though. You could use the same argument for Arran > Barst, for God's sake.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Ninji

[Rodykitty]

My counter argument: They really do suck that bad. This is probably the most obvious thing in the world, especially if you try to use one in-game seriously.

Re:Curate. Some characters above them have better availability or can also go it. Also keep in mind that helping to make enemies die is also an effective way of keeping your teammates alive.

Re:Etzel. Joey makes some pretty solid arguments.

Edited November 16, 2009 by FE3 Player

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Re:Curate. Some characters above them have better availability or can also go it. Also keep in mind that helping to make enemies die is also an effective way of keeping your teammates alive.

It isn't that many though. Name the ones that would rather go Curate over any other physical class.

[Rodykitty]

It isn't that many though. Name the ones that would rather go Curate over any other physical class.

Of the characters just above them, Radd is one of those that likes to go Curate apparently.

Boah & Etzel are already healers.

Linde has the option, being a Magic-based unit, though wants to get some level ups with Aura.

Wrys is an obvious example.

Gordon may go Curate after he is no longer able to function well as a physical class (Grandjackal might argue that he can extend his physical period.)

The difference between Wrys and Gordon and the four is that Wrys and Gordon have actual utility to speak of right off.

Now this does not mean that units can't go below Roshe or whatever, it just means I'm not putting so much weight on Curate -> Promoted setups that it outweighs units that are helping to clear obstacles for efficiency.

[_____]

My counter argument: They really do suck that bad. This is probably the most obvious thing in the world, especially if you try to use one in-game seriously.

And...?

Obviously they don't suck that badly once they promote, since I (and CATS, for Vyland) have shown that again and again, while their stats as Curates don't even matter. For God's sake, taking a Master Seal doesn't nullify availability and combat leads.

Re:Curate. Some characters above them have better availability

Uh, yeah, Gordin and Wrys have better availability. I didn't even argue Gordin and Wrys < Matthis, Vyland, Roshe. I specifically put Jeorge as the limit for a reason.

or can also go it.

That's nice. Do a comparison, then. Matthis and Vyland are around for longer. Hell, Matthis and Vyland will be close to promoting by the time Raddy even joins.

Also keep in mind that helping to make enemies die is also an effective way of keeping your teammates alive.

That's nice.

Currently above them:

Radd - He's going Cleric, too, wtf.

Macellan - ... You're joking, right?

Bantu - For 2 chapters before he's obsolete, he's pretty good. Afterwards... Also, 30 uses =

Etzel - hi i dont double but no magic user doubles ri- wtf vyland with your 14 AS at 20/1 as a sage i hate you

Boah - See above, but with a ton less magic and 1 higher base speed

Linda - I'm going cleric too, wheeeeeeeeeee! When I promote, I have Aura chip damage, but by the time I promote, Matthis and Vyland could have B tomes, and will have built up utility while I was gone!

Ymir - I exist for 6 chapters and will never double in my entire life.

Jeorge - I don't double past Chapter 9.

Vyland and Matthis promote -> They roflstomp all of these characters in offense and defense.

Re:Etzel. Joey makes some pretty solid arguments.

What, that combat doesn't matter whatsoever for anyone with a staff? Well, then, Vyland and Matthis >>>>>> Etzel, since they've been healing for 15 more chapters than Etzel. 15! That's a mindbogglingly huge number.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Radd - Less availability. Vyland and Matthis would have superior staff rank at his joining time so he's got a bigger competition i the Curate path than Vyland and Matthis.

Linde - An option, but again less availability.

Boah and Etzel - The good thing about them is no needing a Master Seal but Vyland and Matthis have served healing utility longer than Boah and Etzel's only got a few chapters of that as well as beginning with D rank.

Gordin and Wrys are the only ones that are really an issue to Vyland and Matthis using Curate.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Vergil

[Rodykitty]

Radd - Less availability. Vyland and Matthis would have superior staff rank at his joining time so he's got a bigger issue with the Curate path than Vyland and Matthis.

Linde - An option, but again less availability.

Boah and Etzel - The good thing about them is no needing a Master Seal but Vyland and Matthis have served healing utility longer than Boah and Etzel's only got a few chapters of that as well as beginning with D rank.

Gordin and Wrys are the only ones that are really an issue to Vyland and Matthis using Curate.

Alrighty. I don't disagree to any of this (and before Ninji whines about me listening to Vergil and not him, I have not made a single pro-Etzel argument other than liking Joey's arguments, and I have said several times that it's possible for units to fall below Vyland, Matthis, or Roshe.)

[_____]

I have said several times that it's possible for units to fall below Vyland, Matthis, or Roshe.

That's. Not. The. Point.

They shouldn't have fallen past Jeorge in the first place. It was a premature decision on your part. You have nothing to back it up besides "Jeorge has Chapter 9 and 10!", which does not beat out winning in everything after they promote.

Fucking hell, you've got me spamming italics.

[Rodykitty]

I've been backing up Jeorge this whole time in explaining why utility is important and highly valued on this tier list.

Ch. 9: Jeorge gets doubled by nothing here, and since enemies tend to used range on this map, it is possible for him to have an enemy phase here. He has 20 Mt with the Silver Bow, which will allow him to do 14-15 Damage to pirates, and 17 to Hunters. He 3RKOs pirates and 2RKOs hunters. He ORKO's the Mage even with a non-Silver Weapon.

Vs. Boss. Does 8 Damage with chance of crit, which while not impressive, can still help in weakening it so that it can be killed safely.

Ch. 10: Drops Dragon Knights down to 5 HP with a single hit (he is pretty much handing out free EXP points to those that want it). OHKO's Pegasus Knights.

Can afford to attack the Sniper due to not getting doubled, though does face a crit.

The enemy he has the most trouble killing are Social Knights, but having a free Silver Bow to help put characters into Horseslayer OHKO range is still helpful.

I personally do value this over Roshe, Vyland, and Matthis, because he's helping OTHERS get kills, which they get EXP and they perform better because of.

Ch. 11 is when he quickly wanes in usefulness and other bow users want the rest of his Silver Bow.

If he goes Bishop though, he gets auto-Mend, allowing him to become a viable healer for little opportunity cost other than buying Mends. Why would he want to go Bishop instead of staying Sniper? Again, because others want his Silver Bow (such as Hunter -> Generals, anyone?) and will do better things with it.

[_____]

I've been backing up Jeorge this whole time in explaining why utility is important and highly valued on this tier list.

Ch. 9: Jeorge gets doubled by nothing here, and since enemies tend to used range on this map, it is possible for him to have an enemy phase here. He has 20 Mt with the Silver Bow, which will allow him to do 14-15 Damage to pirates, and 17 to Hunters. He 3RKOs pirates and 2RKOs hunters. He ORKO's the Mage even with a non-Silver Weapon.

Vs. Boss. Does 8 Damage with chance of crit, which while not impressive, can still help in weakening it so that it can be killed safely.

Ch. 10: Drops Dragon Knights down to 5 HP with a single hit (he is pretty much handing out free EXP points to those that want it). OHKO's Pegasus Knights.

Can afford to attack the Sniper due to not getting doubled, though does face a crit.

The enemy he has the most trouble killing are Social Knights, but having a free Silver Bow to help put characters into Horseslayer OHKO range is still helpful.

The two chapters that we've all admitted he's good in. This proves...?

I personally do value this over Roshe, Vyland, and Matthis, because he's helping OTHERS get kills, which they get EXP and they perform better because of.

No, Chainey. Better offense is better offense, no matter how you twist it.

By the way, Matthis, Vyland, and Roshe are all 2RKOing, too, leaving enemies within KO range of anyone. They leave them with less HP. This is the difference.

Ch. 11 is when he quickly wanes in usefulness and other bow users want the rest of his Silver Bow.

So, you admit that he's pretty useless as a combat unit after Chapter 10? Thank you.

If he goes Bishop though, he gets auto-Mend, allowing him to become a viable healer for little opportunity cost other than buying Mends.

While Matthis/Roshe/Vyland all have C staves or higher, depending on whether they stay as Sages or go Sniper. Yeah, Jeorge is still losing.

Jeorge wins for two chapters, then is stuck as a Bishop, healing and getting ORKO'd for the rest of his pitiful life.

Matthis/Vyland/Roshe start as Curates for 6 chapters, and then kick Jeorge's ass for 18 chapters.

Jeorge does not win.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Ninji

[Dat Nick]

I want to say that I also think Jeorge's utility is overblown. Two chapters of having slight utility shouldn't make for a tier gap when Matthis/Vyland do shitstomp him later.

[Rodykitty]

The trio are useless at combat when they first exist, regardless of whether they stay an actual combat class or not, then they're rather mediocre post promotion.

Jeorge is useful as a combat unit then is useful at the same task at healing they are. Being a pre-promote with usable stats and useful weapon rank means that he'll be useful for any team even if it's for a short time.

I want to say that I also think Jeorge's utility is overblown. Two chapters of having slight utility shouldn't make for a tier gap when Matthis/Vyland do shitstomp him later.

I'll close the tier gap, but I do feel justified in dropping them below Jeorge as a start.

[CATS]

From what I can see, the main argument against Matthis/Vyland is that their Curate utility is so easily replaceable. Many, many units can do the same job or do it better. Even Jeigan does their job better if assigned to the same task (1 more move, 3 Mag as Bishop compared to their 1, higher staff rank, 3 times their Mag growth, and can attack in the unlikely event that you need him to). Wendell who is like Bishop Jeigan with better offense. Merric who will get higher Mag and is a much more worthwhile overall investment of the massive healing Exp pool. Lena and Wrys with better Mag (and higher staff rank for Lena, plus Hammerne provides a much greater incentive to keep her alive over Matthis/Vyland). You have many, many options for healers. If you remove Matthis or Vyland, a plethora of other units are available to fill the void.

The same is not true of Jeorge in Ch 9 and 10. He doesn't take up a spot for Ch 9 and provides useful offense there, and no one else can use the Silver Bow in Ch 10 (or atleast, I'd consider it unlikely) so once again he's useful by default in that chapter.

Edited November 16, 2009 by CATS

[_____]

The trio are useless at combat when they first exist, regardless of whether they stay an actual combat class or not

Except that, as Curates, they don't need to be good at combat. For the last time, you shouldn't penalize Etzel because he can only be a Sorcerer, so stop penalizing Matthis, Roshe, and Vyland because they can't be anything but Curates.

then they're rather mediocre post promotion.

And yet they still blow Jeorge out of the water. What does that tell you?

Jeorge is useful as a combat unit

FOR. TWO. CHAPTERS.

then is useful at the same task at healing they are.

Jeorge wins for two chapters, then is stuck as a Bishop, healing and getting ORKO'd for the rest of his pitiful life.

Matthis/Vyland/Roshe start as Curates for 6 chapters, and then kick Jeorge's ass for 18 chapters.

Jeorge's period as a Bishop is 3x theirs. 3. Fucking. Times.

If you want to keep Matthis, Vyland, and Roshe down because they have to be Curates to get past their period of suck, you had damn well better drop Jeorge to below Est, because he can only be a Bishop during 3/4 of the game.

Being a pre-promote with usable stats

I will repeat this for one last time.

He beats them for 2 chapters. He loses to them for 18.

Raise them now.

useful weapon rank

Which matters for Chapters 9-11, I admit, but after that, they'll have reached Silvers, which are much more common than the Parthia that Jeorge needs to spam to be viable as Sniper, and they'll still outdamage him with just Silvers.

I'll close the tier gap, but I do feel justified in dropping them below Jeorge as a start.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

I'd also like to mention that I believe your bias against Roshe, Vyland, and Matthis is affecting your judgement. You've done that H3 playthrough of yours, and I believe that, since they performed poorly in that, you do not want them rising whatsoever.

That's what I think. You wouldn't be making ridiculous claims like 2 chapters of being better > 18 chapters of being better otherwise.

From what I can see, the main argument against Matthis/Vyland is that their Curate utility is so easily replaceable. Many, many units can do the same job or do it better. Even Jeigan does their job better if assigned to the same task (1 more move, 3 Mag as Bishop compared to their 1, higher staff rank, 3 times their Mag growth, and can attack in the unlikely event that you need him to). Wendell who is like Bishop Jeigan with better offense. Merric who will get higher Mag and is a much more worthwhile overall investment of the massive healing Exp pool. Lena and Wrys with better Mag (and higher staff rank for Lena, plus Hammerne provides a much greater incentive to keep her alive over Matthis/Vyland). You have many, many options for healers. If you remove Matthis or Vyland, a plethora of other units are available to fill the void.

The same is not true of Jeorge in Ch 9 and 10. He doesn't take up a spot for Ch 9 and provides useful offense there, and no one else can use the Silver Bow in Ch 10 (or atleast, I'd consider it unlikely) so once again he's useful by default in that chapter.

We are talking about Lower Mid units here. Of course other units can do their job better! That's the entire reason why Matthis, Roshe, and Vyland are underneath Merric, Jeigan, and Lena, the three units you mentioned.

We're talking about Jeorge here. Jeorge is useful in Chapters 9 and 10, and then loses by a lot to these three in the chapters that follow.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Ninji

[Dr. Tarrasque]

From what I can see, the main argument against Matthis/Vyland is that their Curate utility is so easily replaceable. Many, many units can do the same job or do it better. Even Jeigan does their job better if assigned to the same task (1 more move, 3 Mag as Bishop compared to their 1, higher staff rank, 3 times their Mag growth, and can attack in the unlikely event that you need him to). Wendell who is like Bishop Jeigan with better offense. Merric who will get higher Mag and is a much more worthwhile overall investment of the massive healing Exp pool. Lena and Wrys with better Mag (and higher staff rank for Lena, plus Hammerne provides a much greater incentive to keep her alive over Matthis/Vyland). You have many, many options for healers. If you remove Matthis or Vyland, a plethora of other units are available to fill the void.

Oh look... Lena, Merric, Wendell and Jeigan are already above Vyland and Matthis.

It's true that many people can go Curate/Cleric but the fact of the matter is that there are many who would much rather stick with a combat class while Vyland/Matthis have the availability to make use of it earlier than others who'd like Curate such as Radd and Linde. We're not assuming that the top tier units will ALWAYS be used, otherwise just stick to the top 15 or top 20 and fuck the rest.

The same is not true of Jeorge in Ch 9 and 10. He doesn't take up a spot for Ch 9 and provides useful offense there, and no one else can use the Silver Bow in Ch 10 (or atleast, I'd consider it unlikely) so once again he's useful by default in that chapter.

For 2 chapters. Vyland and Matthis have been useful as Curates in earlier chapters and then better Jeorge in the lategame.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Vergil

[Rodykitty]

While I am not a fan of gimmicky cleric setups, it looks like most people agree George should drop below them.

[_____]

While I am not a fan of gimmicky cleric setups, it looks like most people agree George should drop below them.

This is a joke, right?

[Rodykitty]

While I am not a fan of gimmicky cleric setups, it looks like most people agree George should drop below them.

This is a joke, right?

No?

You asked for an explanation as to why I felt Jeorge should remain above him. I gave said explanation. Most disagreed.

[_____]

While I am not a fan of gimmicky cleric setups, it looks like most people agree George should drop below them.

This is a joke, right?

No?

You asked for an explanation as to why I felt Jeorge should remain above him. I gave said explanation. Most disagreed.

No one has provided any proof as to why they should even be below Ymir, who should be below Jeorge, actually. Instead of raising Matthis, Vyland, and Roshe, which would make the most sense since they soundly defeat the characters above them (I mean, Bantu? Really? The man has one chapter of usefullness, as opposed to Jeorge's), you drop Jeorge.

This is some cruel joke. Look, I despise Roshe and Vyland, too, but they should rise. Right now.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Ninji

[Rodykitty]

Then start making arguments so that everyone can help obtain accuracy. I don't do things just because I'm told to.

It's not like you'll have trouble anyway. I've given you pretty much everything by now.

Edited November 16, 2009 by FE3 Player

[_____]

Then start making arguments so that everyone can help obtain accuracy.

That's not the point. I shouldn't have to argue them higher. You made the move completely randomly. You had nothing to back up dropping them.

By the way, Matthis used to be below Radd. He did pass all of these character. I will concede that Vyland > Matthis, or, at least, that Matthis = Vyland, so this should apply to Vyland, as well. Roshe is just slightly worse than them.

I don't do things just because I'm told to.

Don't you get me started.

It's not like you'll have trouble anyway. I've given you pretty much everything by now.

Whether something is easy or not doesn't matter.

[Rodykitty]

If you aren't going to make any arguments, then I'm sure some will. I'll toss Bantu below them since arguments have already been made in the past, but other characters are not free.

With that, I'm confident whether this decision was good or not that it will work out itself as it always had.

[_____]

If you aren't going to make any arguments, then I'm sure some will. I'll toss Bantu below them since arguments have already been made in the past, but other characters are not free.

By the way, Matthis used to be below Radd. He did pass all of these character.

I am not going to type up old arguments just because you decided to bork up.

With that, I'm confident whether this decision was good or not that it will work out itself as it always had.

So, you make a mistake with nothing to back it up, and we have to waste our time re-arguing characters up that shouldn't have been dropped in the first place, and then everything is fine afterwards?

That's. Not. How. Things. Work.

I would like to note that none of my posts are meant to be attacks against Darth, or anyone, for that matter. I just find his decision... well, retarded, to put it bluntly.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Ninji