H5 Tier list topic

[Rodykitty]

Regardless, I will wait for discussion to happen.

[CATS]

Oh look... Lena, Merric, Wendell and Jeigan are already above Vyland and Matthis.

Are you trying to make a point here?

It's true that many people can go Curate/Cleric but the fact of the matter is that there are many who would much rather stick with a combat class while Vyland/Matthis have the availability to make use of it earlier than others who'd like Curate such as Radd and Linde. We're not assuming that the top tier units will ALWAYS be used, otherwise just stick to the top 15 or top 20 and fuck the rest.

I didn't name Radd or Linde, nor did I name only top tier units, nor did I name units who would much rather stick with a combat class. I named units who join around the same time that Matthis/Vyland do who would also prefer to stick to a healing class (and the only high tier I named was Merric), and I didn't name them all, btw. There's also Gordin and Roshe who can simply do the exact same thing as Matthis/Vyland are. If you have alot of units waiting in line to fill your role or even improve upon it, then it can't be said that you're very useful, as you're not actually contributing anything notable at all.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Oh look... Lena, Merric, Wendell and Jeigan are already above Vyland and Matthis.

Are you trying to make a point here?

Pointing out that those units can do better than Vyland and Matthis is pointless. We're not arguing that Curate makes them WTFAWESOME or anything of the sort. Just that it gives them more usefulness than the units they're being argued against.

It's true that many people can go Curate/Cleric but the fact of the matter is that there are many who would much rather stick with a combat class while Vyland/Matthis have the availability to make use of it earlier than others who'd like Curate such as Radd and Linde. We're not assuming that the top tier units will ALWAYS be used, otherwise just stick to the top 15 or top 20 and fuck the rest.

I didn't name Radd or Linde, nor did I name only top tier units, nor did I name units who would much rather stick with a combat class. I named units who join around the same time that Matthis/Vyland do who would also prefer to stick to a healing class (and the only high tier I named was Merric), and I didn't name them all, btw. There's also Gordin and Roshe who can simply do the exact same thing as Matthis/Vyland are. If you have alot of units waiting in line to fill your role or even improve upon it, then it can't be said that you're very useful, as you're not actually contributing anything notable at all.

@Bold: I didn't say you did. I simply used examples of units above Vyland/Matthis that have use of the Curate class for their position and came chapters later than Vyland/Matthis to make a point: Even if Curate isn't anything really notable, it's still an option for them just as it is for Linde and Radd, who are above Vyland/Matthis and come a few chapters later.

Edited November 17, 2009 by Vergil

[CATS]

Pointing out that those units can do better than Vyland and Matthis is pointless. We're not arguing that Curate makes them WTFAWESOME or anything of the sort. Just that it gives them more usefulness than the units they're being argued against.

In order to be useful, a unit needs to be contributing something that you'd actually miss if they were removed from the game. This is why the good units are ranked so high; if you take them out of the game, you have no one else that good to put in that spot. This is why units like Jeigan and Wendell are ranked as high as they are; if you take them out of the game, you'll notice their absence during the time periods where they're useful.

With Matthis and Vyland, you can remove them from the game and never even miss a beat, as there's a large number of units who can simply step in and do the exact same thing as them or do it better. This demonstrates a difference between units who are actually useful and which you would miss if they were removed, such as Jeigan and Marth, and displays the fact that what Matthis/Vyland are doing isn't actually useful at all. Curate doesn't make them useful, rather, it simply makes them less worthless.

@Bold: I didn't say you did.

Then why mention those things at all? I completely fail to understand your point.

I simply used examples of units above Vyland/Matthis that have use of the Curate class for their position and came chapters later than Vyland/Matthis to make a point: Even if Curate isn't anything really notable, it's still an option for them just as it is for Linde and Radd, who are above Vyland/Matthis and come a few chapters later.

This is about Vyland/Matthis vs Jeorge. How is this relevant to that?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Pointing out that those units can do better than Vyland and Matthis is pointless. We're not arguing that Curate makes them WTFAWESOME or anything of the sort. Just that it gives them more usefulness than the units they're being argued against.

In order to be useful, a unit needs to be contributing something that you'd actually miss if they were removed from the game. This is why the good units are ranked so high; if you take them out of the game, you have no one else that good to put in that spot. This is why units like Jeigan and Wendell are ranked as high as they are; if you take them out of the game, you'll notice their absence during the time periods where they're useful.

With Matthis and Vyland, you can remove them from the game and never even miss a beat, as there's a large number of units who can simply step in and do the exact same thing as them or do it better. This demonstrates a difference between units who are actually useful and which you would miss if they were removed, such as Jeigan and Marth, and displays the fact that what Matthis/Vyland are doing isn't actually useful at all. Curate doesn't make them useful, rather, it simply makes them less worthless.

@Italic: The same is true for the units below V/M as well as some of the units above them.

@Bold: That being the point of the Curate setup for V/M as well as some others. From what I've seen, if a unit just fails at combat while being unpromoted and has too much trouble, the Curate class is taken into account depending on the results and availability.

Then why mention those things at all? I completely fail to understand your point.

In case there's any issue in V/M rising above Radd/Linde as well as pointing out an inconsistency.

This is about Vyland/Matthis vs Jeorge. How is this relevant to that?

I'm not directly arguing V/M > Jeorge since people were already agreeing to that. I was arguing V/M against Linde, who is already above Jeorge and if Linde > Jeorge as recently agreed, V/M would go above him as well.

V/M going Curate isn't quite notable but use of it beats 2 chapters of ranged chip damage.

Edited November 17, 2009 by Vergil

[Dat Nick]

Don't really object to Jeorge in Low tier. He really is overrated, past C9 and 10 he basically needs Partia to function.

The issue I had was solved so I'll continue to watch the argument cuz I don't really care what comes out of it.

*points to av*

Edited November 17, 2009 by laws b122

[Colonel M]

Come now, Parthia utility is at least keeping him running for a while. And the so-called gimmick of Bishop | Sage w/out a Master Seal is pretty significant as well.

Granted I'm not wholeyhelldenying but...

[_____]

Come now, Parthia utility is at least keeping him running for a while. And the so-called gimmick of Bishop | Sage w/out a Master Seal is pretty significant as well.

Granted I'm not wholeyhelldenying but...

Let it be known to everyone that I did not want Jeorge to drop down an entire tier.

I wanted Matthis and Vyland to certainly go back to where they were, because the drop was wtf, and for Roshe to possibly go up with them.

[Dat Nick]

Come now, Parthia utility is at least keeping him running for a while.

Here's the other problem. Partia only has 20 uses pre-C219-20 and a lot of other people want it, since Wyverns are so difficult to double.

And the so-called gimmick of Bishop | Sage w/out a Master Seal is pretty significant as well.

um

how

By the time he joins, we have plenty of possible healers. Riff, Lena, Jagen [He's outlived any combat utility by now], Merric, Wendell, and Linde joins right after Jeroge's utility runs out, hell, Maria just joined too. Do you honestly need this many staffwhores? The only reason Curate Gordin has any worth is because earlygame we actually ARE short on healers and don't have many other options.

Don't even bring up the point that he can attack, because shit combat [PHEER MAH 4 MAG AND 7 AS] is not much better than no combat at all.

Edited November 17, 2009 by laws b122

[CATS]

@Italic: The same is true for the units below V/M as well as some of the units above them.

Yep. And it's not true for Jeorge. You'll miss him on Ch 9/10 if nothing else. After that, he can go with Parthia or reclass to Bishop/Sage and do the same healing routine as V/M for a while, and once again, do it better than them with higher Mag/move and being able to attack.

In case there's any issue in V/M rising above Radd/Linde as well as pointing out an inconsistency.

If you can argue them against Radd/Linde, go for it. I'm just talking about them vs Jeorge.

V/M going Curate isn't quite notable but use of it beats 2 chapters of ranged chip damage.

2 chapters of chip damage which can't be effectively replaced by anyone else. As opposed to you having plenty of superior alternatives for healers.

I don't necessarily think Jeorge is better, I just think he has a case. It depends on to what extent we're assuming absolute efficient play; in terms of contributions to a completely efficient playthrough, Jeorge wins. Sometimes people like to go against that assumption, though, for whatever reasons.

Edited November 17, 2009 by CATS

[Dat Nick]

After that, he can go with Parthia or reclass to Bishop/Sage and do the same healing routine as V/M for a while, and once again, do it better than them with higher Mag/move and being able to attack.

Not taking sides here [i don't care much for Redheads vs Jeorge, I just wanted them close to one another] and I agree that 6 mov is (slightly) better than 5, but, again, "4 MAG and 7 AS, ALOLOLOLOL I'M BARELY BETTER THAN BASE LEVEL MERRIC" seriously may as well be the same as not being able to attack.

Edited November 17, 2009 by laws b122

[_____]

The problem with a "completely efficient playthrough" is that we won't be using ANY of these characters past their forced periods because they suck. It comes down to Vyland in Chapter 5 and Matthis in Chapter 4 vs. Jeorge in Chapter 9, which is not the correct way to compare these units.

[Dat Nick]

The problem with a "completely efficient playthrough"

As efficient of a playtrhough as using a team including Lower Mid characters like Vyland and Matthis will allow us.

[_____]

The problem with a "completely efficient playthrough"

As efficient of a playtrhough as using a team including Lower Mid characters like Vyland and Matthis will allow us.

Then Vyland and Matthis would win, because they beat Jeorge in more chapters than he beats them. The only reason this is even being considered is Jeorge's wins in those two Chapters, which aren't as significant as they seem to be.

But then again, you said you agree, BB, so...

[CATS]

Not taking sides here [i don't care much for Redheads vs Jeorge, I just wanted them close to one another] and I agree that 6 mov is (slightly) better than 5, but, again, "4 MAG and 7 AS, ALOLOLOLOL I'M BARELY BETTER THAN BASE LEVEL MERRIC" seriously may as well be the same as not being able to attack.

4 Mag + Elfire + 0 Res enemies allows 13 chip damage (11 w/ Blizzard), maybe less if physical enemies actually have some Res by now, too lazy to check. I agree it's shitty, but shitty is still > nothing.

The problem with a "completely efficient playthrough" is that we won't be using ANY of these characters past their forced periods because they suck. It comes down to Vyland in Chapter 5 and Matthis in Chapter 4 vs. Jeorge in Chapter 9, which is not the correct way to compare these units.

Yeah, this is what I mean when I say that some people like to go against the assumption of absolute efficiency, some people think like this. Arguments like these should be taken to the appropriate topics in the General FE Forum.

[Dat Nick]

Then Vyland and Matthis would win, because they beat Jeorge in more chapters than he beats them.

Quantity of wins does not<Quality of wins. Vyland and Matthis may win for more chapters, but they do not perform that well in a good deal of them, consume a master seal to have "meh" ish use, whereas Jeroge is quite useful during the time that he is useful. Furthermore, "wins" in lategame chapters matter less when you still suck against these enemies, i.e 20/3 Matthis not doubling C20 Paladins and doing shit damage still.

But then again, you said you agree, BB, so...

what

when did I say I agreed to anything

I said I'm neutral.

Edited November 17, 2009 by laws b122

[Colonel M]

Parthia can always be hammerned / Starsphered. It'd have to last until C19 and Jeorge can't double anyway. Even though it's likely 18-19 or w/e rounds of combat he has "dibs" on it, perse.

[Dat Nick]

Parthia can always be hammerned / Starsphered.

Partia only has 20 uses pre-C219-20 and a lot of other people want it

Also, if we're using a dedicated Bowman, he has no excuse to be at A or close by the time Partia comes, C12x. Then it isn't that useful in C13 so said archer has even more time to get rank.

Edited November 17, 2009 by laws b122

[Colonel M]

W/e. I think you and I are just going to backseat this through.

Pass the popcorn plz.

EDIT: Erm... though in all seriousness I don't disagree to a tier gap at the least.

Edited November 17, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

Since BB is actually neutral and not in full agreement like I originally thought, and that CATS and others felt that the debate is still in the air, I have returned Jeorge to top of Low (same tier as the trio).

I can personally see Linda > Jeorge due to having similar utility but having a more existing lategame. In fact, due to recent discoveries I an see her climbing into Low Mid with ease.

[Dat Nick]

I feel that if Linde goes up, Radd goes up with her. They're pretty similar.

[_____]

Quantity of wins does not<Quality of wins. Vyland and Matthis may win for more chapters, but they do not perform that well in a good deal of them

whereas Jeroge is quite useful during the time that he is useful.

Matthis, Vyland, and possibly Roshe (I haven't really looked that much into him) are all basically being what Jeorge was in Chapter 9 and 10 from Chapter 11 on. They're 2RKOing and doubling everything, and it's not like they even have bad durability, because they have wtfHP.

We're not talking about Minerva here, who basically does what these guys do, but without a Master Seal. We're talking about Jeorge, who sucks after his two chapters of being useful are up.

consume a master seal to have "meh" ish use

It's an advantage for Jeorge.

It's nowhere near as important as people are trying to make it sound.

(Not you, but others.)

Furthermore, "wins" in lategame chapters matter less when you still suck against these enemies

Vyland doubles, like, everything in the game. Matthis can double a fair majority, though he does miss things like DKs (yayeffectivedamage). Roshe... Well, Roshe is doing pretty well in the midgame.

I can actually see Vyland > Matthis > Jeorge > Roshe if Roshe is shown to suck a lot more in the lategame than Matthis and Vyland, but Vyland, Matthis, and Roshe definitely need to rise.

i.e 20/3 Matthis not doubling C20 Paladins and doing shit damage still.

Oh, ha ha ha.

[CATS]

It's an advantage for Jeorge.

It's nowhere near as important as people are trying to make it sound.

On the contrary. There's a massive opportunity cost associated with using a Master Seal. You're using an item that is usable by nearly the entire team and increases anyone's stats by a large amount. It's like using a super stat booster.

In Ch 11, you have only one Master Seal. You can't just assume that it goes to any one unit without any strings attached, considering that nearly everyone can use it and it's the only one you have right now. It's not at all accurate to assume that these guys get the first Master Seal in the entire game, no questions asked.

[Rodykitty]

I can actually see Vyland > Matthis > Jeorge > Roshe if Roshe is shown to suck a lot more in the lategame than Matthis and Vyland, but Vyland, Matthis, and Roshe definitely need to rise.

I just looked at Roshe's stats again.

You're pretty silly to think Roshe needs to rise.

If Matthis & Vyland rise back up, Roshe is not going with them.

[_____]

Missed this:

Yeah, this is what I mean when I say that some people like to go against the assumption of absolute efficiency, some people think like this. Arguments like these should be taken to the appropriate topics in the General FE Forum.

You brought it up. An "absolute efficiency" tier list is a flawed tier list, as it will assume that no unit that is past the top 14~ or so, as that is the limit for most chapters for deployment slots, despite the fact that characters are not going to be used just for their forced periods if they are being compared.

You want us to assume that we will be duoing the game with Zagaro and Wolf on every playthrough, and everyone else can go fuck themselves. This is not the correct way to tier characters.

On the contrary. There's a massive opportunity cost associated with using a Master Seal. You're using an item that is usable by nearly the entire team and increases anyone's stats by a large amount. It's like using a super stat booster.

Thank you for mentioning that nearly everyone on the team will need a Master Seal. Thank you very much.

Why should the opportunity cost for Vyland, Matthis, and Roshe be sky-high? A majority of our units require Master Seals.

Minerva isn't above Caesar, despite the fact that he needs a Master Seal.

Wendell isn't above Sheeda, despite the fact that she needs a Master Seal.

Jeigan isn't above Kain, despite the fact that he needs a Master Seal.

This is the same basic thing; The characters at the start of the sentence beat the characters that follow them for a period of time, and then lose to the latter characters for a much longer period of time. The former characters don't require Master Seals and can just resort to healing after their period of being useful is over, but that doesn't put them above the latter characters, because the latter characters shitstomp them, quite frankly.

The fact that the latter characters require a Master Seal obviously isn't the huge deal for them. Why should there be a double standard for Vyland, Matthis, and Roshe?

In Ch 11, you have only one Master Seal. You can't just assume that it goes to any one unit without any strings attached

I'm not. Have you been listening? They take a Master Seal. This is a negative for them.

It does not beat out offensive, defensive, and availability wins.

considering that nearly everyone can use it and it's the only one you have right now. It's not at all accurate to assume that these guys get the first Master Seal in the entire game, no questions asked.

Everyone that uses a Master Seal is assumed to get a Master Seal as soon as possible, even if it means assuming multiple characters get the exact same one.

Trying to say that a character doesn't get the first Master Seal if they are able to use one is just favortism towards the higher tier characters. Let's be fair to all characters concerning the Master Seal, especially since all will get one eventually.

Yeah, I know the second part, Chainey.

This is only if two characters being compared want the same one and are similar levels. There are times when a character that has a much higher level will surely benefit more, or pre-promotes immune to this issue altogether.

CATS is trying to say that Vyland, Matthis, and/or Roshe will not get the first Seal, despite is saying clearly,

"Trying to say that a character doesn't get the first Master Seal if they are able to use one is just favortism towards the higher tier characters."

That sentence was basically made for a situation like this. I really see no reason for it to not apply.

I just looked at Roshe's stats again.

You're pretty silly to think Roshe needs to rise.

If Matthis & Vyland rise back up, Roshe is not going with them.

Roshe at least has 14 AS at 20/3, which is same AS as Matthis, which doubles quite a bit through the midgame. Once Roshe starts to fail again, he can fall on Bishop or Sage, like Jeorge (oh shi-), except Roshe will have an existing staff rank.

Again, I can live with Jeorge > Roshe. Stuff like Boah and Etzel > Roshe? Not so much.

Edited November 17, 2009 by Ninji