H5 Tier list topic

[Rodykitty]

Ogma is no longer the statistical beast he was in previous games, but for H5 he comes good immediately, and on top of that is a utility unit for Chapters 2 & 3.

He becomes more meh as the game goes along, but he's still a decent unit.

[grandjackal]

An honest question: What makes Ogma so good? I've used him in both runs (H1 and currently on H5) and he's only ever average at best. Did I get screwed or is there a specific class I should switch him to?

From what I hear, it's due to his great starting speed to kick the ass of those insane beginning bosses and great HP for durability. Also, something I heard about changing to fighter, but I'm not a merciless player yet. He just happens to slow down later, as he's not the stat-beast he used to be.

Also, Shiida below Oguma in chapter 5? I'd think her wing spear against the cavs is great with flying. Her durability isn't great, but she's flying around to help fly back to a healer. Oguma's fast, but he doesn't have a horseslayer weapon or the move.

Edited March 5, 2009 by Destiny Furry

[Rodykitty]

Also, something I heard about changing to fighter, but I'm not a merciless player yet.

To get his strength up, but he has a hard time being useful in this form. I don't think it'll affect his tier position at all.

[grandjackal]

To get his strength up, but he has a hard time being useful in this form. I don't think it'll affect his tier position at all.

I suppose switching him to Warrior at promotion wouldn't help...Even though I think he gets hammer use right then and there with Hand-axes and Bows for the fliers...*checks Pole-Axe rank*

EDIT: woops, hammers are C along with pole axes....

Edited March 5, 2009 by Destiny Furry

[Rodykitty]

Like I said in another topic, tiers should be more about what the character is doing for the player, rather than what the player is doing for the character. Having to switch to Axes to get his rank up will sacrifice stats from him temporarily. For this to work, we'll have to find out what chapters he's not doubling as Merc anyway and not getting doubled for it to be a plausible option to consider it an advantage to switch to Fighter/Pirate and get his axe rank up.

[grandjackal]

Like I said in another topic, tiers should be more about what the character is doing for the player, rather than what the player is doing for the character. Having to switch to Axes to get his rank up will sacrifice stats from him temporarily. For this to work, we'll have to find out what chapters he's not doubling as Merc anyway and not getting doubled for it to be a plausible option to consider it an advantage to switch to Fighter/Pirate and get his axe rank up.

Right, was just thinking of something to help him out, just I didn't know hammers were C rank. But yeah, I can easily see a character that doesn't need fixing up is much better than one that does. But if a character CAN be easily fixed, it should be kept in mind. Oguma's just not one of them is all. Merciless mode makes it harder too, all things considered. Like Matthis is not good as an archer, but I doubt he's working any miracles as a cav either...

[Tino]

You tend to act like your suggestions are set in stone, which is an attitude that really irks me.

No, because otherwise I wouldn't ask if there are any objections, and once again, the list I provided was what the list would look like if my arguments would be taken into account without any objections, but I suppose I won't provide a list for further arguments. It only confuses you people more and more <_<

Also...

Like I said in another topic, tiers should be more about what the character is doing for the player, rather than what the player is doing for the character.

And yet you keep bawwing about how I think Gordon is fail, because what the player needs to do for him by far offsets what Gordon does for the player? I lol'd.

[Rodykitty]

Right, was just thinking of something to help him out, just I didn't know hammers were C rank. But yeah, I can easily see a character that doesn't need fixing up is much better than one that does. But if a character CAN be easily fixed, it should be kept in mind. Oguma's just not one of them is all. Merciless mode makes it harder too, all things considered. Like Matthis is not good as an archer, but I doubt he's working any miracles as a cav either...

Looking at Oguma's speed as a Fighter, it's actually still pretty usable speed. Higher than I thought it would be. I can definitely see him going fighter when he stops doubling things as Merc. Maybe he can pull this off without hindering the player.

No, because otherwise I wouldn't ask if there are any objections, and once again, the list I provided was what the list would look like if my arguments would be taken into account without any objections, but I suppose I won't provide a list for further arguments. It only confuses you people more and more

I understand you perfectly, but a lot of things you say give an impression that you think you're right. By asking us if we object you're assuming a position of power that you don't have.

And yet you keep bawwing about how I think Gordon is fail, because what the player needs to do for him by far offsets what Gordon does for the player? I lol'd.

You're overrating this so badly it isn't even funny. Edited March 5, 2009 by Chainey

[Tino]

I understand you perfectly, but a lot of things you say give an impression that you think you're right. By asking us if we object you're assuming a position of power that you don't have.

Eh, I guess you're right. Then I'll only argue from now on. Though I really hope you don't start bawwing when I -suggest- where a unit should be placed after an argument of mine.

You're overrating this so badly it isn't even funny.

That doesn't address my point at all.

[grandjackal]

Speaking of fixing characters up, Vyland (relax, I'm not using hte multi-class argument). He sucks something royal at first. Great thing about the finesse class is he can just switch to archer (wouldn't dream of turning him mage). This way he can just hang back and do what archers do, safely getting exp. Another great thing about the finesse class is that there is no strength difference between cavalier and archer, so his strength isn't changing. Vyland however, has a D in lances right off the bat so when he promotes, he has a C in lances, even if he's been an archer the whole time. He's only getting faster quicker, and safely. C's not so bad in exchange for safely getting great speed safely, right?

He doesn't really lose anything switching to archer. He in fact gains, because he's not safe as a cavalier. Hell, why not keep him a sniper? Only reason I say make him a paladin is because he's got the speed to be able to not get doubled by bravers later, but I've no idea how bad they might tear him up.

Just a suggestion is all. I'd probably think this wouldn't help him, but if it does...

[Rodykitty]

Then I'll only argue from now on. Though I really hope you don't start bawwing when I -suggest- where a unit should be placed after an argument of mine.

We'll see...

That doesn't address my point at all.

I've been addressing this point during the argument about Gordon.

Speaking of fixing characters up, Vyland (relax, I'm not using hte multi-class argument). He sucks something royal at first. Great thing about the finesse class is he can just switch to archer (wouldn't dream of

-snip-

Just a suggestion is all. I'd probably think this wouldn't help him, but if it does...

He has w1n speed growth, that's for sure, but this will be offset by having base stats as bad as Gordon and requiring leveling up to get going for his later joining time. Edited March 5, 2009 by Chainey

[grandjackal]

He has w1n speed growth, that's for sure, but this will be offset by having base stats as bad as Gordon and requiring leveling up to get going for his later joining time.

Isn't there fliers in the upcoming chapters? He's not helping much at his start as Gordin's, but he has a long term effect to him. By now, Gordin's helping with fliers anyways, and generally not doing much better anyways. they both could just help take down fliers. Who else is gonna do it? Matthis could, Roshea is bleh because he's good only as an archer and can't switch back to have counter abilities. Matthis doesn't have speed though, so Vyland can still tank braves a bit better. His speed is a nice advantage over Matthis.

Might help him a bit, but I wouldn't dream of putting him higher than a LOT of characters. Just...maybe a few.

[Rodykitty]

You're right. He is way too low (didn't realize it until now). I'll try and find out where he should be placed.

EDIT: I risen him within Bottom for now, since I'm not sure how much he outclasses Thomas yet.

Heck, Thomas himself can rise.

Edited March 5, 2009 by Chainey

[grandjackal]

You're right. He is way too low (didn't realize it until now). I'll try and find out where he should be placed.

EDIT: I risen him within Bottom for now, since I'm not sure how much he outclasses Thomas yet.

Heck, Thomas himself can rise.

Is Thomas really helping out that much when Vyland is likely to be better than him by the time Thomas shows up? If invested into, Vyland can help with pesky fliers a bit into the late portions of earlygame, help continue sniping fliers more into it along with ranged offense (even if it's little, but who else is gonna aside form your other meh archers who can't brave tank and maric?). Thomas can...have a short burst of usefulness if immediately promoted...which we can give to Vyland and he can bravetank from there. Fuck Thomas.

Also...why the fuck is Dolph so high? Above Draug? Lol

Edited March 5, 2009 by Destiny Furry

[Rodykitty]

No no no, Vyland is definitely better than Thomas, just wondering how much, and I may need to rise Thomas.

[grandjackal]

No no no, Vyland is definitely better than Thomas, just wondering how much, and I may need to rise Thomas.

Ahh, ok ok. I'd say at least place Thomas just below Raddy because at least Raddy has time to become something useful. Vyland, I've no clue how much he'd rise...Maybe either above Elice, or below Boah. Seriously, why is Elice above Boah? Boah comes with A staves and time to use them. Vyland at least has time of bravetanking, which could help your team. I would say being an archer to help bitchslap the early fliers with Gordin is also a big help if he's being used. Hell, I could see Vyland over Matthis, as Matthis isn't doing anything outside being an archer.

Still, why is Dolph higher than Draug? Draug at least helps you through hell, Dolph is...not doing anything when he shows up.

Edited March 5, 2009 by Destiny Furry

[Rodykitty]

Seriously, why is Elice above Boah? Boah comes with A staves and time to use them.

Switched.

Still, why is Dolph higher than Draug? Draug at least helps you through hell, Dolph is...not doing anything when he shows up.

Switched as well.

I'll think about other stuff later. Really tired.

Edited March 5, 2009 by Chainey

[grandjackal]

Switched.

Switched as well.

I'll think about other stuff later. Really tired.

Issalright. Not like this is important in the world. Just chill and we others will squabble over where some of these guys can be placed.

I could see Vyland above Bord really. What use is Bord past chapter 4?

[Rodykitty]

What use is Bord past chapter 4?

Hammer.

[grandjackal]

Hammer.

Ok fine, below Bord.

[Rodykitty]

Ok fine, below Bord.

I'm not even attempting to sort out tiers for these characters right now. I was just answering your question.

(That, and I always hope for more feedback from others before actually making changes, that way I can be more sure).

Edited March 5, 2009 by Chainey

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Rickard below Tiki (possibly lower). Tiki comes late and all but all that Rickard can do is just open doors and chests... you've already got that covered with keys, Julian and Marth. Base Tiki is doing only 5 damage less than base Nagi to Medeus so she's useful for the 1 turn strategy too and she is doing pretty good against enemy manaketes.

[grandjackal]

Rickard below Tiki (possibly lower). Tiki comes late and all but all that Rickard can do is just open doors and chests... you've already got that covered with keys, Julian and Marth. Base Tiki is doing only 5 damage less than base Nagi to Medeus so she's useful for the 1 turn strategy too and she is doing pretty good against enemy manaketes.

This sounds good to me. The game throws enough free keys at you anyways, you should barely need Julian even. At least for doors anyways, not that chest keys are expensive. Only real special thing they do is raid chapter 6 which can be done as easily as letting the thieves get to some and killing them, using master keys to get the others. I think you have a set of master keys by then...

Also Levin, your thoughts on Vyland's situation?

[Rodykitty]

I'll go ahead and make some changes:

- Thomas above Radd

- Vyland the bottom of Low until we decide where to put him within that tier

- Tiki above Ricardo

I can always change it back later if any of these were mistakes.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Also Levin, your thoughts on Vyland's situation?

His nice SPD growth as an archer sounds appealing at first but look at his attack in chapter 6: 10, with a 25% growth. The guy's basically Shiida with less SPD... and slightly (and probably insignificant) better durability and lacking Wing Spear. Too difficult to feed him kills and not worth the trouble (16.5 STR at 20/20 Sniper LOL).

Also, he's not getting Ridersbane unless you have him use Lances a bit before or after promotion. Going from D Lances and promoting to paladin results in a D in lances with 2/3 WEXP towards C rank. You'd need 15 more WEXP (you get 1 for each hit, 2 for each kill) to get C rank.

Edited March 5, 2009 by Levin