H5 Tier list topic

[grandjackal]

That was agreed a while ago >_>. Only thing that happened is that you suggested it's due to his "higher" bases and I disagreed >_>.

Castor below Horace. Poor bases, poor damage and has trouble doubling even as a mercenary.

Nyeh, I apologize then. I dunno what's gotten into me lately x.x

But...I've yet to get to Horace's level in H5, considering it's my first run...not sure how useful he'll be exactly, BUT I do know that being a merc pretty much = barely doubling axers, but they have like 8 when Ogma joins, Castor would have around 10-11 speed when he class changes. Ogma is actually kinda struggling a bit as it is with doubling, Castor's indeed in trouble.

EDIT: Levin beats me to it...

*Ahem* On another note I'm just curious, why the hell is Cord so high?

Edited March 10, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Rodykitty]

I'll put Horace above Kashim.

*Ahem* On another note I'm just curious, why the hell is Cord so high?

Why not? Edited March 10, 2009 by Chainey

[grandjackal]

Why not?

I see the subtlety in this question...

Wendell is weakening with magic and good speed, healin yur gaiz and slapping barrier on them for Kahdien. Cord is being very fragile and hitting unreliably for the start and continuing that trend for a bit. Change him to hunter, he's basically Kashim 1.5. Change him to merc, and you'll realize you can't with all the other people in front of him in that huge-ass line. Wouldn't put it to good use anyways, he has an E in axes anyways. As a knight, he's basically Doga with worse starting speed, but better everywhere else outside of HP, so he's not doing any better than Doga as a knight.

Hell, Wrys at least keeps Cord's fragile ass alive in chapter 3 and 4 until you can drop both.

[Rodykitty]

Cord makes better use of Merc than a some other characters, so he's actually not in the back of the line. Besides, I believe that everybody that wants merc is getting slightly penalized anyway (which is miniscule to the point where it doesn't really change anybody's positions, even those that have no good alternatives, which Cord is not one of these characters since he does fine as non-Merc classes.)

But besides Merc, I think he's perfectly suitable for Fighter, and in fact I think it's a better class for him for the majority of the game. It gives him good HP growth which he needs, it gives him good strength growth, and his speed growth is also amazing with a decent enough base so he won't be getting doubled. Axes are also a better weapon on H5 for the later half of the game.

Tino already proved that it's possible to hit stuff with low accuracy, so Cord will do fine in hitting stuff with hit rate around the 70's. His problem is that he has no ranged weapon alongside other issues, so his early game kind of sucks regardless.

But I think Cord makes up for it with a better configured endgame. His speed isn't going to be far behind Oguma's even if Oguma remains a Merc and he stays Fighter. Oguma doesn't double alot after awhile anyway, so Cord gains the advantage of using Axes and such. Cord's major problem is his defense, which I'm sure keeps him from becoming higher than he is.

[Mekkah]

Cord is Barst with 4 less hp, 3 less str, 1 less skl, 1 less def and E axes rather than D. He has 5% less def growth, so in the end the gap between their def becomes maybe 2 instead of 1. But in trade, Cord has 10% more in Str and Spd, so the Str gap closes and he actually pulls ahead in Spd. Everything else about them is identical, except Barst is actually one level higher.

The fact that he's relatively close to an undisputed Top tier is enough to show that he's nowhere near a hopeless case.

[grandjackal]

Cord makes better use of Merc than a some other characters, so he's actually not in the back of the line. Besides, I believe that everybody that wants merc is getting slightly penalized anyway (which is miniscule to the point where it doesn't really change anybody's positions, even those that have no good alternatives, which Cord is not one of these characters since he does fine as non-Merc classes.)

But besides Merc, I think he's perfectly suitable for Fighter, and in fact I think it's a better class for him for the majority of the game. It gives him good HP growth which he needs, it gives him good strength growth, and his speed growth is also amazing with a decent enough base so he won't be getting doubled. Axes are also a better weapon on H5 for the later half of the game.

Tino already proved that it's possible to hit stuff with low accuracy, so Cord will do fine in hitting stuff with hit rate around the 70's. His problem is that he has no ranged weapon alongside other issues, so his early game kind of sucks regardless.

But I think Cord makes up for it with a better configured endgame. His speed isn't going to be far behind Oguma's even if Oguma remains a Merc and he stays Fighter. Oguma doesn't double alot after awhile anyway, so Cord gains the advantage of using Axes and such. Cord's major problem is his defense, which I'm sure keeps him from becoming higher than he is.

I think he has the worst earlygame situation outside of Daros. In fact, I'd say it's THE worst because we can just give Daros iron to not weigh him down and he can at least lob hand axes. Cord has to get up close and be fragile with a weapon aim that is close to Abel's current status with a javelin. Castor and Gordin can shoot stuff, Doga can be the hocky golie of getting hit in the face, Shiida's got wing spear win coming up and has been using javelins to stay out of battle too. Marth is at least all around decent and Julian is a minimal risk guy with accurate swords. His durability is no better than Julian's. While Julian is weak, at least he won't eventually gimp you over by missing at close range.

His defense, as you've stated, also rarely rises. He gets good offensive stats, but his defense just blows and his HP isn't great for a fighter until after promotion. If he changes class, he gets gimped in HP too. All this while needing to build up axe rank for hand axes, and later the more important weapons of Hammers and Pole Axes (hand axes still rock though by endgame I would imagine.). He basically grows to be Geitz. Geitz is ok, but he also wasn't around stinking up the team early on, was he? Geitz didn't have motherfuckers chasinghim down with brave weapons either.

How is this better than Wendell's utility for when we need him?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

The bad early game is why he isn't higher. His hit with an Iron axe isn't as bad as Javelin Abel.

Cord: 85 Hit. No WTD.

Abel: 77 hit. WTD.

After chapter 3, he should already have a D (or close) in Axes so you can switch him to Merc and he'll start quickly start doubling and his damage won't be bad for long since doubling results in fast WEXP and access to better weapons much faster. In the early game, his DEF isn't an issue because every1's getting 2-3 rounded easily.

As for Wendell? LOL he becomes obsolete quickly. His early game usefulness is what's stopping him from sinking lower.

[Rodykitty]

All this while needing to build up axe rank for hand axes, and later the more important weapons of Hammers and Pole Axes (hand axes still rock though by endgame I would imagine.)

It isn't hard to get out of E Rank as long as Irons are still useful, and his accuracy issues are overrated.

Yes, he has early game problems, but that is already why he isn't hanging with characters above him.

How is this better than Wendell's utility for when we need him?

Wendell is better than a lot of characters during the time where Wendell is useful, but then Wendell begins to suck more and more while Cord just keeps getting better and better.

Also, looking at Maji's stats again, his HP *doesn't* suck as a Fighter. 20 base HP with 80% growth is fine.

[grandjackal]

The bad early game is why he isn't higher. His hit with an Iron axe isn't as bad as Javelin Abel.

Cord: 85 Hit. No WTD.

Abel: 77 hit. WTD.

After chapter 3, he should already have a D (or close) in Axes so you can switch him to Merc and he'll start quickly start doubling and his damage won't be bad for long since doubling results in fast WEXP and access to better weapons much faster. In the early game, his DEF isn't an issue because every1's getting 2-3 rounded easily.

As for Wendell? LOL he becomes obsolete quickly. His early game usefulness is what's stopping him from sinking lower.

Did someone suddenly hit me upside the head with a sledgehammer? Cord going up a rank in axes after chapter 3? If that's the case, Abel's lance rank should go up from using javelins all the time to boost his hit. Abel also has back-up in swords to accurately finish off weakened enemies garunteed. Cord's got no option. Also, that javelin has range, Abel doesn't have to eat a counter when using it.

But with the merc business...Fine, but only if no others are gonna be using it. I'm guessing Ogma's going fighter a bit to boost weapon rank while Barst goes merc for the speed boost? If that's the case, then I can see Cord easily getting the second slot.

I still feel he should be lowered though....Perhaps below one of the pegasi that is Catria or...I'm guessing Athena's that high because of the pegasi thing, or is she staying myrmidon this mode? Either way, one of them?

EDIT: Forgive if I bring up accuracy a lot...I know PEMN, but...I have the worst luck on earth with hitting things....It will cause me to get a bit obsessive with accuracy naturally, so feel free to ignore my accuracy paranoias.

Edited March 10, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Ok, the axe rank thing was exaggerated. Why lower than Catria though? He's there earlier and they're much different throughout late game.

[grandjackal]

Ok, the axe rank thing was exaggerated. Why lower than Catria though? He's there earlier and they're much different throughout late game.

Her flying, ease of training in her area and general coolness cancels out his royal earlygame suck. Also, we don't need to class change her to make her stand out. Cord on the other hand needs to make it through his chapters of sucking to get his axe rank up a slight bit, only to go through all that AGAIN with SWORDS this time as a mercenary, only this time he has lower strength.

[Rodykitty]

Also, we don't need to class change her to make her stand out. Cord on the other hand needs to make it through his chapters of sucking to get his axe rank up a slight bit, only to go through all that AGAIN with SWORDS this time as a mercenary, only this time he has lower strength.

Did you completely miss the part where I explain why Fighter is actually a good class for him?

Her flying, ease of training in her area and general coolness cancels out his royal earlygame suck.

His early game sucks > her not existing during the early game. Cord can actually do stuff, by the way, he just doesn't have Javelin/Hand Axe utility during the first 3 chapters like other characters do, then after the first chapters you're more free to use melee weapons. Even though he isn't a durability king, he's also not a durability wuss, and is not likely to get doubled until brave weapons. Edited March 10, 2009 by Chainey

[grandjackal]

Did you completely miss the part where I explain why Fighter is actually a good class for him?

You mean the part where he has 10 defense at level 20/20? Fine he has decent HP as a fighter, but that defense blows. The guys with brave weapons would LOVE to carve this guy a new asscrack.

[Rodykitty]

You mean the part where he has 10 defense at level 20/20? Fine he has decent HP as a fighter, but that defense blows. The guys with brave weapons would LOVE to carve this guy a new asscrack.

Go hero, and his durability stops sucking.

[grandjackal]

Go hero, and his durability stops sucking.

Well ya said fighter wasn't a bad choice. I actually agree here, but then his offense takes even longer to get up to par, what with having to go through with an E rank AGAIN with SWORDS when LANCE guys start to flood in, along with a bit weaker strength. If Ogma's having a hard time doubling by now, so is Cord, but now Cord can't use a steel sword, has 5 less health and only 1 more point of defense compared to Ogma.

He basically went from unimpressive to bad. Mercenary only helps his durability problems later. Early on, he's made of tissue. Even with a couple of levels as a fighter first he isn't anything impressive. His earlygame is not doing him any favors.

EDIT: Woop, said hero, lemme fix this up a bit.

...If we're having him be a fighter (where he'll have generally pisspoor defense), and promoting him into hero, we just gave him 3 more points of defense at the cost of...about 8 HP. If that helped...it...didn't help much. Basically no matter what, he's not having the best durability ever. Not even kinda good.

Edited March 10, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Rodykitty]

You're right. 8 HP actually would be better than shaving off up to six damage.

but then his offense takes even longer to get up to par, what with having to go through with an E rank AGAIN with SWORDS when LANCE guys start to flood in, along with a bit weaker strength. If Ogma's having a hard time doubling by now, so is Cord, but now Cord can't use a steel sword, has 5 less health and only 1 more point of defense compared to Ogma.

Cord isn't going to be using Swords as a Hero. He'll be using the weapon Oguma wants to use but can't: Hand Axes.

[grandjackal]

You're right. 8 HP actually would be better than shaving off up to six damage.

Cord isn't going to be using Swords as a Hero. He'll be using the weapon Oguma wants to use but can't: Hand Axes.

Indeed it would.

Ok, so now he's generally still easy to kill and is now someone we had to baby up his axe rank to make him do what Castor does with Steel while Castor is doing it more accurately anyways for longer? They have the same starting strength and Castor can use steel right off the bat. We could make him a hunter so he could arch safely-OH WAIT, weaker and lower weapon rank...

Oh wait, as a HERO! So we're just gonna wait that long for him to use that weapon eh? All so he can generally suck as a fighter OR a mercenary! Me thinks you overrate this guy...

Edited March 10, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Rodykitty]

Actually, he'll still want Hero for a speed boost to have more security in not getting doubled, though he'll probably do fine as Warrior if he gains some level ups.

It also won't take that long to get his axe rank up even by using him normally. Not every attack has to be ranged, and after the first couple of chapters it becomes easier to use melee weapons so he'll definitely be getting the D rank eventually.

So we're just gonna wait that long for him to use that weapon eh? All so he can generally suck as a fighter OR a mercenary!

Who says we're waiting?

[Mekkah]

He'll be using the weapon Oguma wants to use but can't: Hand Axes.

iono about you, but raising Oguma's axe rank at least as much that he has D axes after promotion sounds like standard fare

[grandjackal]

Actually, he'll still want Hero for a speed boost to have more security in not getting doubled, though he'll probably do fine as Warrior if he gains some level ups.

It also won't take that long to get his axe rank up even by using him normally. Not every attack has to be ranged, and after the first couple of chapters it becomes easier to use melee weapons so he'll definitely be getting the D rank eventually.

So now we're switching him back and forth? To think you bust my balls all the time when I try to come up with this shit for other characters. Also, this doesn't stop him from existing for chapters 2 and 3 at the least of which he blows because he's the LAST person we can afford to send in to melee someone. Catria doesn't need this classing back and forth nonsense. Apparently, Cord does however.

Who says we're waiting?

Well you DID say he's gonna be using it as a HERO, which I don't recall them being unpromoted, and I don't think mercenaries can use hand axes...

[Rodykitty]

iono about you, but raising Oguma's axe rank at least as much that he has D axes after promotion sounds like standard fare

Ah yeah, that's right.

So now we're switching him back and forth?

What the fizzeck? Switching back and forth between what? Mercenary? I never said that at all.

Well you DID say he's gonna be using it as a HERO, which I don't recall them being unpromoted, and I don't think mercenaries can use hand axes...

picardfacepalm.jpg

[grandjackal]

Actually, he'll still want Hero for a speed boost to have more security in not getting doubled, though he'll probably do fine as Warrior if he gains some level ups.

Now reading it again without being hasty, I can see I simply hallucinated the part of you saying switching back and forth, but I still don't see anything about his bad bad defense getting fixed.

Getting his axe rank to D requires we either A. Put him in danger early where he's at his worst (which is dangerous), or B. Wait till he promotes to Warrior (which is stupid).

Edited March 10, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Don Draper]

Keep in mind the Cord also has Barst/Ogma/Marth support for +30% avoid. A 20/1 Beserker Cord with 10 levels as a Mercenary has 59% avoid. If he class changed in say...Chapter 15:

-Mages/Bishops have 23% displayed hit (10.81% real)

-Wyverns have 33% displayed hit on him (22.11% real) thanks to WTD.

That sounds pretty damn durable to me.

Edited March 10, 2009 by IOS

[Rodykitty]

Getting his axe rank to D requires we either A. Put him in danger early where he's at his worst (which is dangerous), or B. Wait till he promotes do Warrior (which is stupid).

Wait till he promotes, what?

Also, he doesn't have to be put in danger to raise weapon level. Chapter 2, yes, you get swarmed but after the initial wave the chapter becomes about luring enemies and hitting a hunter or hitting a lone Pirate while at full health is certainly not dangerous.

Same thing for Chapter 3, except now there's more freedom to move around so he can help during the initial phase.

Also, we're assuming that he's going to be leveled up, so he'll be gaining weapon rank from getting kills as well.

I believe Chapter 5 is when not having a Hand Axe doesn't bite him. In fact, there are quite a few archers to smack, so more weapon level and EXP for him, and those that aren't archers, he gains something called WTA so his accuracy goes up too.

but I still don't see anything about his bad bad defense getting fixed.

You're overrating his defense so badly. Try comparing to other characters. The Paladins only have about 4 more Defense at level 20/10. Barts doesn't have much of a Def lead either.

Why don't we just prove right here and now that Maji can survive: Because MERRIC can survive a brave attack, and his durability is comparable.

[grandjackal]

Keep in mind the Cord also has Barst/Ogma/Marth support for +30% avoid. A 20/1 Beserker Cord with 10 levels as a Mercenary has 59% avoid. If he class changed in say...Chapter 15:

-Mages/Bishops have 23% displayed hit (10.81% real)

-Wyverns have 33% displayed hit on him (22.11% real) thanks to WTD.

That sounds pretty damn durable to me.

Catria gets it from Marth and CAIN, grows actually pretty mad defensive stats, has resistance against said bishops. Catua's fine.

Wait till he promotes, what?

Also, he doesn't have to be put in danger to raise weapon level. Chapter 2, yes, you get swarmed but after the initial wave the chapter becomes about luring enemies and hitting a hunter or hitting a lone Pirate while at full health is certainly not dangerous.

Same thing for Chapter 3, except now there's more freedom to move around so he can help during the initial phase.

Also, we're assuming that he's going to be leveled up, so he'll be gaining weapon rank from getting kills as well.

I believe Chapter 5 is when not having a Hand Axe doesn't bite him. In fact, there are quite a few archers to smack, so more weapon level and EXP for him, and those that aren't archers, he gains something called WTA so his accuracy goes up too.

You're overrating his defense so badly. Try comparing to other characters. The Paladins only have about 4 more Defense at level 20/10. Barts doesn't have much of a Def lead either.

Why don't we just prove right here and now that Maji can survive: Because MERRIC can survive a brave attack, and his durability is comparable.

Ooooh, attacking one hunter. He's doing soooo much chapter 2....He's still in danger from the waterwalkers and the charging cavs.

Chapter 3 does give you more freedom, but you also have time to set up position on your side along with a shitload of people on your team to help out. Only hard part of chapter 3 is the boss. Your exp could be going to people like Abel or Marth or Barst or Cain, perhaps letting Navarre take a shot at things. You've got plenty on the team to choose from that could be put to good use on H5. He's not getting many kills at this point, nor is he doing much real attacking. Chapter 4 is just a sandwich so everyone's on guard, and 5 is indeed not a bad chapter for him for once. Still, that's 3 chapters of ugh all just to make him what Castor's been doing for a while.

Oh yeah, the cavs have 4 more defense when they're 10 levels below him when he's at an unrealistic level. How would he have gained 10 levels on THEM of all people? Also, this suddenly blanks out earlier when he's actually LESS durable than Maric thanks to how fast he's leveling compared to him? Considering the fact he's in the same general durability range as a guy who's taking only one brave shot...Maric is a mage who can hang back and shoot things with amazing magical powers, Cord is a melee guy with sissy bows at promotion, who do I expect to frontline better?

Barst also has health on him along with starting with hand axes and able to do heavy damage with steel with about the same hit rate as Cord with iron.

Catua takes a bit of babying, but it doesn't take long, and doesn't require her to blow for the harder beginning chapters either.