H5 Tier list topic

[Rodykitty]

He's still in danger from the waterwalkers and the charging cavs.

I said after the initial wave of the chapter, so the hunter I speak of is getting hit without danger of incoming Social Knights and water walkers, and even then he can hit non-hunters due to how much safer the 2nd half of the chapter is.

Your exp could be going to people like Abel or Marth or Barst or Cain, perhaps letting Navarre take a shot at things.

This is not how I tier characters. I actually assume that a character is getting his fair share of EXP, and that others are too, regardless of who they might be.

Still, that's 3 chapters of ugh all just to make him what Castor's been doing for a while.

He'll do fine from then onward. He has the rest of the game to become useful in.

Also, this suddenly blanks out earlier when he's actually LESS durable than Maric thanks to how fast he's leveling compared to him?

The point was to show that he's actually capable of taking a hit. Merric's durability is abnormal since it compares to physical characters.

Oh yeah, the cavs have 4 more defense when they're 10 levels below him when he's at an unrealistic level. How would he have gained 10 levels on THEM of all people?

Who cares about level 20/20? Level 20/10 is acceptable endgame level.

Catua takes a bit of babying, but it doesn't take long, and doesn't require her to blow for the harder beginning chapters either.

Blowing for the early game chapters > not existing in the early game chapters. Catria really shouldn't be as high as she is.

Barst also has health on him along with starting with hand axes and able to do heavy damage with steel with about the same hit rate as Cord with iron.

This isn't Barst vs. Cord. This is Cord vs. not getting dropped down.

[Don Draper]

Catria gets it from Marth and CAIN, grows actually pretty mad defensive stats, has resistance against said bishops. Catua's fine.

Too bad that she doesn't get B support until Chapter 23. Enjoy your 10 avoid lead until then.

Even being extremely generous to Catria (I'll use...Chapter 20 as an example):

20/8 Cord (Beserker): 44 HP, 36 Atk (Silver Axe), 19 AS, 64 Avd, 30 Crit, 11 Def

20/3 Catria (Dracoknight): 34 HP, 33 Atk (Silver Lance), 20 AS, 44 Avd, 10 Crit, 17 Def

Cord is facing 22 Displayed Hit (Which is like...10% real) against pretty much everything thanks to them having Lances. Catria is facing 52% displayed (54% real), which is a pain against those Brave weapons. Add of Cord's far superior game when Catria joins and his superior offense, and I would say that Cord's the winner.

[grandjackal]

I said after the initial wave of the chapter, so the hunter I speak of is getting hit without danger of incoming Social Knights and water walkers, and even then he can hit non-hunters due to how much safer the 2nd half of the chapter is.

I suppose Cord should get a cookie for finally coming in at the safest part of the chapter apparently?

This is not how I tier characters. I actually assume that a character is getting his fair share of EXP, and that others are too, regardless of who they might be.

I'm sorry, Aren't we keeping the team small this mode? We'd want to make sure our best get the most experience they can get. We're feeding kills to the good people, no matter how we look at it. We can't afford to be lugging Bord around all day along with Gordina nd Draug.

He'll do fine from then onward. He has the rest of the game to become useful in.

To be all offense and no defense? The best offense in this game is a good offense, something Cord just doesn't have. He's not hard to kill early, and can take A brave shot, just A brave shot. Does he want a medal for it?

The point was to show that he's actually capable of taking a hit. Merric's durability is abnormal since it compares to physical characters.

Merric is indeed weird, but Maric has the benefit of being a MAGE who can take a shot, not a WARRIOR, Maric can be backlined and spring up, but can take a brave shot if you screw up positioning. Cord has to frontline it with the big boys, or be a great big puss with a bow or a hand axe.

Who cares about level 20/20? Level 20/10 is acceptable endgame level.

My point exactly, he's now got 9 defense instead with a lot less health. Now the cavs have about the same health with more defense, Barts will have a bit less health with MUCH more defense, Maric will be lightyears ahead of him. Catua gets his average 20/20 defense at level freaking 11/0.

Blowing for the early game chapters > not existing in the early game chapters. Catria really shouldn't be as high as she is.

You serious? He's essentially a liability early on, Katua's being null early on because she can't effect it. Cord can, but it's in the form of sucking. Null > Negative

This isn't Barst vs. Cord. This is Cord vs. not getting dropped down.

Right, that's why I'm comparing him to the likes of Catria and Athena, which I suppose I should switch to Athena, considering she's basically the same except you get her sooner.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

First, you're exaggerating the difficulty and assuming that EVERY1 that's higher in the tier list than him WILL ALWAYS BE USED. Not the case.

Secondly, you're exaggerating when you say he's a liability. An example of a liability is some1 who's best class is a direct attack unit and is so slow and weak that he/she will get killed on the enemy counter-attack that the only way to give him/her EXP is to feed him/her kills. Cord doesn't get doubled and he's taking a hit like every1 else (in the earlygame).

Also, you're acting like the defense leads in the late game that the other units have are really that much better. Most non-general units are better off switching to an indirect attack class or just attack with an indirect weapon and finish off most of the time. Granted, it'd be nice if he could take 2 brave weapon assaults like Cain and Abel if they had some good DEF growth but again, DIRECT ATTACKS ARE NOT THE ONLY OPTION.

Edited March 10, 2009 by Levin

[Rodykitty]

I'm sorry, Aren't we keeping the team small this mode? We'd want to make sure our best get the most experience they can get. We're feeding kills to the good people, no matter how we look at it. We can't afford to be lugging Bord around all day along with Gordina nd Draug.

If we determined tiers based on who we want to bring along, then there would only be two tiers: Those worth using and those not worth using.

But that's not the case. We're going to assume Cord is actually a part of the team, and determining how much worth he has as part of one. If it's a small team, then so be it. He's a part of it.

He's essentially a liability early on

How so? Liability to himself maybe, but he can gain EXP just like any other character.

My point exactly, he's now got 9 defense instead with a lot less health. Now the cavs have about the same health with more defense, Barts will have a bit less health with MUCH more defense, Maric will be lightyears ahead of him. Catua gets his average 20/20 defense at level freaking 11/0.

The defense lead is large, but not so phoenominally huge that it means Cord will always be dying from everything. Yes, it's there and it is significant, but all of the characters above him are a given. My argument is that his durability is enough to survive and actually function.

By the way, since Cord uses Axes, he's also negating the +2 Attack Brave Lances and Forged Javelins/Silvers have, so that helps his durability as well.

Edited March 10, 2009 by Chainey

[grandjackal]

If we determined tiers based on who we want to bring along, then there would only be two tiers: Those worth using and those not worth using.

But that's not the case. We're going to assume Cord is actually a part of the team, and determining how much worth he has as part of one. If it's a small team, then so be it. He's a part of it.

How so? Liability to himself maybe, but he can gain EXP just like any other character.

The defense lead is large, but not so phoenominally huge that it means Cord will always be dying from everything. Yes, it's there and it is significant, but all of the characters above him are a given. My argument is that his durability is enough to survive and actually function.

By the way, since Cord uses Axes, he's also negating the +2 Attack Brave Lances and Forged Javelins/Silvers have, so that helps his durability as well.

Katua and Athena have a null with weapon triangle, and have better durability than him, Athena especially.

Liability to the team by being a risk when none can be taken. He can never be exposed to two enemies at a time or they'll just slaughter him. There's never really a time he can be considered durable.

So lemme get this straight, your entire reason of arguing his durability is that he gets 2 rounded rather than 1 rounded? that's...still not good for a front liner. Katua at least has a moment of greatness while Cord is just bleh throughout, his start being utmost horrid.

Either way I feel Athena is better than both these guys though.

[Rodykitty]

He can never be exposed to two enemies at a time or they'll just slaughter him.

This applies to most units for the large majority of the game.

And also for the later part, he can be exposed to two units if they have non-brave weapons, which still exist even when braves come around. Even then, his avoid bonuses help out against the brave weapons since they're less accurate.

Athena could go above Cord.

Edited March 10, 2009 by Chainey

[Don Draper]

I like how my Cord vs. Catria comparision was completely ignored in the arguement...

[Dat Nick]

I just wanted to point out that Cord's supports aren't too likely to happen, for two reasons.

A: Ogma's pretty meh once his earlygame win wears out.

B: lolBord

[Rodykitty]

A: Ogma's pretty meh once his earlygame win wears out.

Not really. He's no longer doubling everything, but he's still very usable as long as you get his axe rank up early. Even without Oguma, he still has Barts and Marth, which is +20 Avoid which cuts Brave weapon users into the 70's, then if he's a Hero, puts their accuracy down to the 50's, where 2-RNs starts to become less effective at boosting accuracy.

[Don Draper]

I know Sweet Tooth is the #1 Ogma hater, but saying he's unlikely to be used after earlygame is absolutely ridiculous.

[Dat Nick]

Saying he's still keeping his edge latergame that he has earlygame is just as much.

EDIT: wtf. Vyland in BOTTOM of low. That's ridiculous. What brings Hardain up 3 tiers, 4 tiers, or whatever the gap between them is? Yes, Hardain has better bases and silver lance use, but there's no way that justifies such a huge gap. Not to mention, below phails like Jeorge? Really? He's even below Linde. ...No. Just...no.

Edited March 11, 2009 by Sweet Tooth

[Tino]

A: Ogma's pretty meh once his earlygame win wears out.

The evidence is killing me.

[grandjackal]

This applies to most units for the large majority of the game.

And also for the later part, he can be exposed to two units if they have non-brave weapons, which still exist even when braves come around. Even then, his avoid bonuses help out against the brave weapons since they're less accurate.

Athena could go above Cord.

Neh...fair enough. Athena just beats him out, but I suppose Katua needs a bit of babying to get good while Athena's good right off the bat AND comes pretty early. Cord does have his supports, but it's not including Bord and...he's still getting hit hard, the supports aren't instant.

As for Ogma...I'll have to get deeper into H5 before I can really judge him.HIs earlygame is pretty damn awesome though.

To Sweet Tooth about Vyland: D in lances forbids him from Ridersbane and low sword rank forbids Armorslayers. He's got a bleh start even in normal. I'd imagine he gets STOMPED in H5 when he shows up, I'd think his versatile weaponry becoming available after a while is the entire reason he's that high in the first place.

Edited March 11, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Mekkah]

I think Vyland is this low for similar reasons as Ward is in FE6: availability is nice only if you don't suck. If you do, then you are being a detriment for a long time. Ellice, for example, can just be useful for the last few maps, and not be hurting your team's efficiency for the rest of the game.

Of course, if you show that Vyland with VERY few or no levels > Linde or something, then he could move up above that.

For Ogma use after earlygame...he has a level lead on nearly your entire cast. Not using him after earlygame would be rather counter-intuitive. He's not Jeigan. I'd dig numbers but I cba.

[grandjackal]

I think Vyland is this low for similar reasons as Ward is in FE6: availability is nice only if you don't suck. If you do, then you are being a detriment for a long time. Ellice, for example, can just be useful for the last few maps, and not be hurting your team's efficiency for the rest of the game.

Of course, if you show that Vyland with VERY few or no levels > Linde or something, then he could move up above that.

For Ogma use after earlygame...he has a level lead on nearly your entire cast. Not using him after earlygame would be rather counter-intuitive. He's not Jeigan. I'd dig numbers but I cba.

Those very few levels by the way would have to be spoonfed rather painfully to him as a note.

As for Ogma, he loses 2 speed when equipping steel to lets say finish someone off with a big hefty serving of damage while he can double just about everything on the map when he shows up with iron to do a nice slice of damage to someone, incredibly helpful for chapter 2, from there on doing accurate heavy damage a shot with steel and helping kill that fucker Reynard with a killing edge, as Navarre himself needs a point in strength or speed to not get doubled by the prick anyways. Ogma's of MAJOR help early. Gets 2 rounded by everything, but who isn't aside from Draug with hunters?

From there he goes fighter, since he won't be doubling anyways, might as well one hit with axes (along with his pretty nice skill) and build up the axe rank for when he goes hero. Major HP too, though his defense lags a bit, but everyone's getting 2 rounded anyways early on. The HP helps him more with mages, which with nice strength and axes will be doing a nice chunk of damage to them. Will nab him the handy hand axes too. Him going bleh is a false assumption, he just goes from your lord and savior to ok. Can't forget his Barst and Marth support. Cord's support with Oguma is fine.

Bord is major lulz though.

[Rodykitty]

Cord does have his supports, but it's not including Bord and...he's still getting hit hard, the supports aren't instant.

By the time Brave weapons actually come, he'll have these supports. In fact, he'll actually be getting the avoid bonus much earlier than that, just in time for the shooter chapter. He should survive pretty much everything else since he's not getting doubled.

I also went ahead and bumped Athena up, since it means Cord isn't being bumped down.

[grandjackal]

By the time Brave weapons actually come, he'll have these supports. In fact, he'll actually be getting the avoid bonus much earlier than that, just in time for the shooter chapter. He should survive pretty much everything else since he's not getting doubled.

I also went ahead and bumped Athena up, since it means Cord isn't being bumped down.

That I can understand, and fair enough.

Wait, he'll have it by the shooter chapter? Damn, that is pretty quick. Not instant, but still pretty quick.

The shooter chapter....*sobs* I don't even wanna think about that chapter in this mode...

I read the supports thing on the site and it just says the characters in a support just need to be in a certain amount of chapters together. I do that, but it STILL doesn't seem to work though. I could care less in normal, but me thinks it's kinda important here. Is there a command, or are the effects just so small at first?

[Rodykitty]

Units need to be standing within three spaces of each other, I believe.

[grandjackal]

Units need to be standing within three spaces of each other, I believe.

That's how it's always worked, it's just not doing anything. In battle, doesn't seem to have effect, doesn't show anything different than normal on the status screen...nothin'.

[Rodykitty]

Also make sure that the person is actually getting a support. Supports aren't two-way.

[grandjackal]

Also make sure that the person is actually getting a support. Supports aren't two-way.

Like Ogma-Barst-Cord?

Yeah, it's not working in any way for any of them.

[Mekkah]

I thought the same. My theory is that it doesn't show up on the stat screen, but you can tell the difference when comparing situations in the combat window.

[grandjackal]

I thought the same. My theory is that it doesn't show up on the stat screen, but you can tell the difference when comparing situations in the combat window.

Possibly, but even then...

But like with Marth and his cavs, it's like it only choses when to work. They could be all right next to eachother, but only one of the cavs will actually get the benefits.

It's weird, it's like the game is picky. That and anything with Cord-Barst-Ogma just refuses to work.

[Rodykitty]

I'm pretty sure the differences only show in-battle.

I'll have to experiment now.

EDIT: No, it does show up in the combat screen.

EDIT 2: Not getting bonuses from both Marth and Ogma, but rather just one bonus. Going to page Vincent ASM about this.

Edited March 11, 2009 by Chainey