H5 Tier list topic

[Tino]

Okay, so that's Oguma on his own. Too bad this is a tier list topic, in which units are always compared to eachother. That's the evidence I was talking about: can you prove that your claim is right, by comparing what you claim to something else if necessary?

[Rodykitty]

Ok, replace defense problems with weaker offense.

And isn't getting doubled, and will double Jiol and Armors, maybe Cavaliers depending on how his speed grew. His HP will also have grown a few ponits, and his average defense barely goes down. Since this is level 15 Oguma, he only has to suffer a weaker offense until promotion where he gets back his axes and retains all of his Merc advantages.

Oguma really becomes a decent, but not game breaking unit after the early game, but that's enough to be useful enough to still stay in play.

Edited March 11, 2009 by Chainey

[Dr. Tarrasque]

It's the STR stats that suffers when changing him back to Merc from Fighter. His offense only increases in that case since he'll be doubling and have access to Silver Sword.

[grandjackal]

Okay, so that's Oguma on his own. Too bad this is a tier list topic, in which units are always compared to eachother. That's the evidence I was talking about: can you prove that your claim is right, by comparing what you claim to something else if necessary?

Marth is Rapier raping the cavs and armors, Shiida's doing the same with the wing spear, Athena has mobility and possibly horseslayer, Cord's not getting doubled by thieves, Horace is tanking, Navarre is doubling the cavs...

Ogma's meh growths aren't helping him get better later either.

Even with just 5 levels as a fighter he's not doubling the cavs along with still being 2 shot by them anyways, so the Silver Sword's not helping him THAT much. It just really lets him double Jiol and not get raped by thieves.

Just showing he does become meh later. By no means does he become Horrid, just Meh.

Edited March 11, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Rodykitty]

Again, I said he's not a spectacular unit. It's his early game that puts him above other characters, but in the long term he's good enough to use, which is important for if you're using him for supports.

And all of the characters you listed have flaws of their own.

[grandjackal]

Again, I said he's not a spectacular unit. It's his early game that puts him above other characters, but in the long term he's good enough to use, which is important for if you're using him for supports.

And all of the characters you listed have flaws of their own.

Navarre puts better use to the silver sword thanks to his speed, Cord's got an easier time thanks to axes having better accuracy over his silver lance, Athena being pretty good early and being better later, they all still get two rounded here anyways aside from Horace...

Shiida and Horace have the more notable flaws however.

Edited March 11, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Rodykitty]

Navarre has mediocre durability and offense, and barely has some of Oguma's utility. Locked to swords as well in a game full of lances, and gets garbage speed if he goes to other classes.

Cord doesn't have Oguma's utility either, and Oguma does win in durability. Cord trades Oguma's excellent early game and average late game for a semi-rough early game and good late game. I think Oguma wins this one.

Marth gets no good ranged weapon, has trouble doubling, and Rapier really needs to be forged for better effectiveness (which is a solution for many offense problems characters may have or a way to improve already good offense (such as allowing Sheeda to OHKO more frequently), so Marth has no exclusive rights to forging).

[grandjackal]

Navarre has mediocre durability and offense, and barely has some of Oguma's utility. Locked to swords as well in a game full of lances, and gets garbage speed if he goes to other classes.

Cord doesn't have Oguma's utility either, and Oguma does win in durability. Cord trades Oguma's excellent early game and average late game for a semi-rough early game and good late game. I think Oguma wins this one.

Marth gets no good ranged weapon, has trouble doubling, and Rapier really needs to be forged for better effectiveness (which is a solution for many offense problems characters may have or a way to improve already good offense (such as allowing Sheeda to OHKO more frequently), so Marth has no exclusive rights to forging).

I'd hardly call consistently doubling poor offense, and they're both getting 2 rounded for quite a while anyways.

Cord's got Hammer and pole axes with better speed, this is to describe Ogma being meh later anyways, not overall use.

Marth's Rapier is the reason he's not taking the armorslayers you get early from other people. You could do worse than the Rapier for forging.

[Don Draper]

Supports DO Stack. Critical is the easiest way to test this.

[grandjackal]

Supports DO Stack. Critical is the easiest way to test this.

I'll be sure to check it over next time, thank you much.

[Tino]

Speaking of supports, is there some kind of support limit, such as five supports at most as in the FE7, for example? Or can a character also have three A supports or something?

[Rodykitty]

I'd hardly call consistently doubling poor offense, and they're both getting 2 rounded for quite a while anyways.

Alright.

Marth's Rapier is the reason he's not taking the armorslayers you get early from other people. You could do worse than the Rapier for forging.

Okay, but it doesn't really give him an edge since he still has trouble killing with it. I could forge something for Oguma in order to help him, for example, so let's not assume anything is being forged.

Cord's got Hammer and pole axes with better speed, this is to describe Ogma being meh later anyways, not overall use.

I already said that Cord trades Oguma's early game for a better endgame.

Anyway, despite good arguments, I think Oguma's early game is enough to keep him where he is, because he's nearly mandatory for the chapters, and him still being good enough for the rest of the game is something I think will keep him in a good spot.

[grandjackal]

Okay, but it doesn't really give him an edge since he still has trouble killing with it. I could forge something for Oguma in order to help him, for example, so let's not assume anything is being forged.

Fine then, he still does a nice thick amount of damage with it. This allows him to have his own thing while Ogma can trade his armorslayer around with his buddies, but it always means there will be two armorslayer weapons being used, but Marth will always have his while Ogma might not have his. Marth's also pigsticking cavs too, something Ogma isn't doing.

Anyway, despite good arguments, I think Oguma's early game is enough to keep him where he is, because he's nearly mandatory for the chapters, and him still being good enough for the rest of the game is something I think will keep him in a good spot.

I'd hardly call him mandatory when you have Jeigen and Barst. If you're gonna go with Reynard, Navarre has a 90% chance of growing strength OR speed on a level up, at which case he can do what Ogma does to Reynard just as well. Besides, we can just have Bord and some others we don't plan on using forever suicide into him and barst finishes with the devil axe.

Navarre, Navarre...Always the pretty ones who're underrated...*sheds a tear for Wolf lol (

Edited March 11, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Rodykitty]

Marth's also pigsticking cavs too, something Ogma isn't doing.

Marth actually has trouble killing Social Knights with the Rapier. It does good damage, but not enough to kill unless they're weakened.

And I never said Oguma was always getting the armor slayer, ever, I am only saying that the Rapier, while an advantage, is not a large one due to H5 enemy durability. I would go as far to say that Marth may actually want to use an Armor Slayer himself due to essentially having +12 extra damage if he doubles an Armor.

I'd hardly call him mandatory when you have Jeigen and Barst.

He is a huge help, regardless. Rips apart pirates, and also is extremely helpful against the Ch. 2 boss.

Navarre has a 90% chance of growing strength OR speed on a level up, at which case he can do what Ogma does to Reynard just as well.

And the point goes to Oguma on this one.

[grandjackal]

Marth actually has trouble killing Social Knights with the Rapier. It does good damage, but not enough to kill unless they're weakened.

And I never said Oguma was always getting the armor slayer, ever, I am only saying that the Rapier, while an advantage, is not a large one due to H5 enemy durability. I would go as far to say that Marth may actually want to use an Armor Slayer himself due to essentially having +12 extra damage if he doubles an Armor.

He is a huge help, regardless. Rips apart pirates, and also is extremely helpful against the Ch. 2 boss.

And the point goes to Oguma on this one.

You said he was mandatory, he isn't. He's a HUGE help no doubt about it, but not mandatory.

Also, doesn't change the fact that he's doing more to cavs than Ogma is. He might do more with an armorslayer, but Why not have him attack armor knights along with someone else holding the armorslayer as well? Just saying it allows for more attackers against them before slayer weapons become widely available.

[Rodykitty]

NEARLY mandatory. I said nearly. Maybe I exaggerated, but saying nearly means that I know he isn't.

Also, doesn't change the fact that he's doing more to cavs than Ogma is.

Okay. Marth trades not being able to get a Hand Axe upon promotion for Rapier use. Rapier is better for early game, but Hand Axe is much better for late game. Oguma may actually be doubling Social Knights as well if he hasn't trained as Fighter yet (which I think soon before promotion is the best time to do it.)

He might do more with an armorslayer, but Why not have him attack armor knights along with someone else holding the armorslayer as well?

Because there may be times where he just needs the extra damage to finish an enemy off without counter attack.

[grandjackal]

Okay. Marth trades not being able to get a Hand Axe upon promotion for Rapier use. Rapier is better for early game, but Hand Axe is much better for late game. Oguma may actually be doubling Social Knights as well if he hasn't trained as Fighter yet (which I think soon before promotion is the best time to do it.)

I'd actually think the damage early on would be more important than the durability as he's not doulbing come chapter 4. Not for a while at least. He'd prefer to smack those lancers with an axe, and it builds up his axe rank so he won't have to worry about it again later. He won't lose too much speed over it, the example I gave was just one chapter. If hand axes are good later, he'd like to enter Hero status without worry of his hand axes.

Because there may be times where he just needs the extra damage to finish an enemy off without counter attack.

Against armors? With magic and an armorslayer in hand when the armors become an issue (and Jeigan still able to stick it to armors with the silver lance with Hardin), this shouldn't be a problem. But Marth has a secondary option it seems.

[Rodykitty]

Alright, I concede. Oguma really is more meh than I thought.

I just put him at the top of upper mid.

Edited March 11, 2009 by Chainey

[grandjackal]

Alright, I concede. Oguma really is more meh than I thought.

I just put him at the top of upper mid.

Should we lower him? I actually think we could lower him below Cord. Cord has the worst earlygame, but there's like 3 people who have good earlygame anyways. Later one, he spanks Ogma on offense with more strength, great speed and more weapon choices. He goes warrior, he even has bows for fliers. He's fragile, but Ogma's not much better for a good while.

[Rodykitty]

Should we lower him?

Which I did. By a whole tier... Not just going from high to up mid, but he actually jumped several characters.

[grandjackal]

Which I did. By a whole tier... Not just going from high to up mid, but he actually jumped several characters.

Wow XD

Man...Ogma's now worse than TWO of his subordinates...How the mighty have fallen.

[Dat Nick]

uh, why are you making it seem like Nabarl's beating Ogma in spd? He's not. Ogma's winning it for quite a while. 1 more base and a slight level lead vs 10% growth. There's no way Nabarl has more utility than Ogma.

EDIT:

Yes, they do. You're debating. Your arguments are valid once you've actually backed them up. Or if another person proves your random claim wrong, then your arguments are suddenly invalid. In other words, your claim means nothing until you actually back it up with evidence.

See how ripped apart you got? Yeah, that's what happens when you make people explain things YOU should already know if you have any experience with H5 whatsoever. Let's be less wasteful with our time in the future and not nitpick on details we should know already, shall we?

Edited March 12, 2009 by Vyland

[grandjackal]

uh, why are you making it seem like Nabarl's beating Ogma in spd? He's not. Ogma's winning it for quite a while. 1 more base and a slight level lead vs 10% growth. There's no way Nabarl has more utility than Ogma.

Level lead doesn't really matter if you don't have a stat lead. Ogma's leads are minimal and it will eventually show. Besides, both have high speed at first, it's more later that it starts to matter. 1 speed is pretty nitpicky when it's as high as these guys. That and Ogma wants some levels as a fighter, which brings down his speed a bit more. Ogma's not relyably doubling due to speed going down as a fighter and it hitting him in speed overall. Navarre's speed however will stay good and continue growing without interruption.

The idea is Ogma either way needs fixings that make him weak, Navarre can just stay how he is and be perfectly ok.

Ogma just has earlygame over him.

[Dat Nick]

Level lead doesn't really matter if you don't have a stat lead.

...when I say a slight level lead, I'm referring to the fact that it causes Ogma to win spd more than he already does.

Ogma's leads are minimal and it will eventually show.

He still beats Nabarl in loads of parameters. Ogma>Nabarl for the time being. Ogma>>>>Nabarl later.

1 speed is pretty nitpicky when it's as high as these guys.

It's still 1 spd.

...What does Nabarl have to compensate, again?

That and Ogma wants some levels as a fighter, which brings down his speed a bit more.

If it fucks him over that bad, he'll just suck it up and use a manual on promotion. What? It's a freaking manual. Don't even TRY to argue that as favoritism.

Ogma's not relyably doubling due to speed going down as a fighter and it hitting him in speed overall.

Nabarl's doing piss poor damage and dies in like, 1-2 shots. Like I said. If Ogma being fighter fucks over his spd that badly, then he can just suck it up and use a manual.

Navarre's speed however will stay good and continue growing without interruption.

Keep Ogma on Hero and he's losing spd by like 2 points compared to Nabarl and he's pwning in everything else. He can even use handaxes, something the pretty boy in red can't do.

The idea is Ogma either way needs fixings that make him weak, Navarre can just stay how he is and be perfectly ok.

And if Ogma stays the way he is, then he>>>>>>>>Nabarl

Ogma just has earlygame over him.

the entire game, more like

[grandjackal]

...when I say a slight level lead, I'm referring to the fact that it causes Ogma to win spd more than he already does.

He still beats Nabarl in loads of parameters. Ogma>Nabarl for the time being. Ogma>>>>Nabarl later.

It's still 1 spd.

...What does Nabarl have to compensate, again?

If it fucks him over that bad, he'll just suck it up and use a manual on promotion. What? It's a freaking manual. Don't even TRY to argue that as favoritism.

Nabarl's doing piss poor damage and dies in like, 1-2 shots. Like I said. If Ogma being fighter fucks over his spd that badly, then he can just suck it up and use a manual.

Keep Ogma on Hero and he's losing spd by like 2 points compared to Nabarl and he's pwning in everything else. He can even use handaxes, something the pretty boy in red can't do.

And if Ogma stays the way he is, then he>>>>>>>>Nabarl

the entire game, more like

First off as a note, Navarre has 20% more speed growth than Ogma, not 10%, it shows MUCH quicker than that. Secondly, they're both dying in 2 shots anyways and Navarre is not dying in one shot. He starts catching up in speed by level 9 (a whole 6 levels where Ogma's not doubling either anyways so all he really has on is the strength lead he has. That slowly becomes less a deal as he doubles less and less. That's why we want him fighter, for the time's he's not doubling anyways and would prefer fighter. It's not solely for axe rank.

The manual you say? Cain or Abel would like it too to use hand axes as dracoknights too. Those two just straight up tell Ogma to shove it, the faster Vyland can use slayer weapons the better. He's got competition for it, two clearly better than him too.

What's he doing with his meh strength and speed combo as a hero anyways? The cavs as dracoknights could be using those same hand axes to do more. Athena too. To use them sooner, they all would like the manual. Ogma could use it or gimp himself with a couple levels as a fighter. He's not having an easy time here.

Navarre's offense WOULD suck, but he can reliably double eventually...Ogma's like the worst person for using hand axes out of the better characters.

Either way, Navarre is still under him for the utter win Ogma is for the time Navarre doesn't exist and before he joins to make up for his meh-ness later.