Rodykitty Posted March 19, 2009 Author Share Posted March 19, 2009 General Astram is pretty much unusable since his SPD means he'll get doubled all the time. At least Horace has some time where he isn't getting doubled, which is why he's a decent tank despite just having 17 DEF.I understand this, but I am thinking the gap between them is smaller than it is now at the very least, even if in separate tiers still.Thomas on the other hand....Has the same problem and comes later only to end up worse.Thomas also comes after the dreaded Ch. 10, meaning that enemies aren't as ridiculous until later on in the game. Then he gets two levels and promotes and suddenly has usable stats and Silver Bow. Raddy needs to get 9 levels before promoting.This is why I am hesitant to put Raddy > Thomas despite better averages, because Thomas may have an easier time getting promoted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 (edited) General Astram is pretty much unusable since his SPD means he'll get doubled all the time. At least Horace has some time where he isn't getting doubled, which is why he's a decent tank despite just having 17 DEF. Hero Astram's a glass cannon... without the cannon. I can see him going above below or above Midia (depends on how much of an issue you see their recruitment as).It would be difficulty to train him, but then there's the Archer class to help make it easier for him. Jackal's got a point. Midia can actually get killer speed as a sniper, but either way her strength ends up meh. Still, doubling with range would help her at least do something. Astram can't even say that. We can also choose to have her fly around and shit, where she still gets decent speed, but is still rather weak and frail. Speed is speed though, Astram's pretty screwed in that department. Did you know we can make Raddy go archer too? It really isn't helping Thomas, in fact I'd think it's helping Raddy do something. He's getting killed at close range anyways, he'd be better off at range, while ending up statistically better than as Swordmaster. Either way if trained, at least Raddy can end up good. Anyone tried Roger as a hunter-horseman? To Chainey: Raddy might have gained those levels by the time Thomas shows up. Edited March 19, 2009 by Grandjackal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Tarrasque Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 The gap between Horace and Astram does seem a bit off. We'll have to compare him with several other units to see how far he can go up... can't be much though since he's probably getting 2 rounded as a general due to getting doubled. Jackal, I know Raddy can go Archer, which is why I suggested it >_>. As for Raddy vs Thomas, as stated, Archer class is an option and if you've got a tank for chapters 8-12, you should have no problem getting Raddy well above Thomas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 (edited) The gap between Horace and Astram does seem a bit off. We'll have to compare him with several other units to see how far he can go up... can't be much though since he's probably getting 2 rounded as a general due to getting doubled.Jackal, I know Raddy can go Archer, which is why I suggested it >_>. As for Raddy vs Thomas, as stated, Archer class is an option and if you've got a tank for chapters 8-12, you should have no problem getting Raddy well above Thomas. Yeah, let's aim lower for now...Try Astram Vs. Bord. As for Raddy...oh, I thought you meant it as an advantage to Thomas. My bad >_> Again though, anyone tried Hunter-Horseman!Roger? Edited March 19, 2009 by Grandjackal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted March 19, 2009 Author Share Posted March 19, 2009 Archer class is why I brought up Raddy vs. Thomas in the first place. Still, I don't see Raddy getting many level ups without a lot of babying and not being too useful for a time, while Thomas will need less of that and then he promotes and can start holding his own and being utility. I still think Thomas wins despite Radd eventually having better stats, but if Radd can find a way to get those level ups without being a detriment, I'll push him above Thomas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Archer class is why I brought up Raddy vs. Thomas in the first place.Still, I don't see Raddy getting many level ups without a lot of babying and not being too useful for a time, while Thomas will need less of that and then he promotes and can start holding his own and being utility. I still think Thomas wins despite Radd eventually having better stats, but if Radd can find a way to get those level ups without being a detriment, I'll push him above Thomas. I'm checking over stats...A. you need to baby Thomas still, even as a sniper. B. Doesn't promotion make you level slower? If that's the case, Raddy would be lightyears ahead Thomas regardless. C. We could promote Raddy early too and he could still put up a good fight himself anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Tarrasque Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Even though you could promote Thomas early for Silver bow utility... would it really be that beneficial? By the time you get him to level 10, you should already have a few units such as Barst and Abel ready for the 3rd Master Seal so you're obviously not gonna give it to Thomas. There goes his advantage over Raddy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 What Sirius said. Unlike Thomas, Raddy has no problem waiting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted March 19, 2009 Author Share Posted March 19, 2009 I'll bump up Radd over Thomas then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 (edited) Why is Navarre below Castor? Castor's not helping you kill Hyman/Rynard easily, he's not doing anything special with the buttload of range you'll have at chapter 3, He doesn't even really grow into anything special. In fact, why the hell is Castor so high in the first place? I could easily see Castor below Draug. Edited March 19, 2009 by Grandjackal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Tarrasque Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 The fact that Castor's so high has been brought up several times... Chainey just hasn't decided how low he'll go and no1's looked into that either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted March 19, 2009 Share Posted March 19, 2009 Well allow me to show why... First off, Draug's helping stomp chapter 1, as he's one of the better guys in that chapter (I'd say he's just below Jeigan there), and is doing generally as well as just about anyone else on the team not named Ogma, Barst, or Jiegan. Then we recruit Castor near midway through chapter 2, where he's not really doing anything Gordon isn't. Not much left on the map either. Draug's got range himself and also get's 2 rounded, while able to counter. Draug > Castor this map. Chapter 3 rolls around, where the thieves will attack you, which Draug can just stand in front of and shove a lance up their ass to easily finish off with other characters, working with range on...well, everything else as they still get stomped. Still, Draug can tank the thieves. That sets him above Castor any day. Lets not forget chapter 2's shop has hand axes, so now you have 3 (and soon to be 4 with Cord building his axe rank up) more people with range, Castor's only got a bit more accuracy on his side. Chapter 4 rolls around, suddenly Draug can take hits again from the somewhat weaker cavalry. Granted, one of them has an armorslayer, but he's like the one furthest back aside from that putz Matthis. Again, all Castor's doing apart from Gordin is not getting downed in one shot now that Gordin's speed and bad durability start to show itself. Castor just continues this streak of meh forever, while Draug has had shining glorious moments at the start, but only getting less and less useful slowly. Slowly being the keyword. Being great for a time is better than being meh throughout. Feel free to prove otherwise, but I don't think class change will save Castor from anything either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Goodness. This has screwed a lot of things out of proportion. AND WHOLY YEESH WE LOST DAMN NEAR 100 PAGES Let's start one at a time, though. Vyland up to low mid, Cord back above Barst, Ogma back down to up mid. That's everything that jumps up at me right off the bat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoNameAtAll Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Est and Berserker!Etzel back down to Worse than Est Tier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 (edited) And Myrmidon!Elice in Christian Bale tier, below Worse than Est tier. Although when Etzel has very similar stats to Est only he doesn't have to eat the WTD and he comes way earlier I call bullshit on him being worse than Est. Jackal checked and apparently he has C axes, and we just got a poleax in 17x. Edited June 10, 2009 by Vyland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted June 10, 2009 Author Share Posted June 10, 2009 Well gosh dangit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ercdouken Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Est, you shall pay for what you have done! Also, you put Barst twice on the list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted June 10, 2009 Author Share Posted June 10, 2009 (edited) Also, you put Barst twice on the list.Then assume that's Chainey's tier list position if he changed into Barst.EDIT: Corrected the list a bit more. Edited June 10, 2009 by Chainey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 (edited) AAARRRGGGHHH!!! WHERE IS ROGER!?! Just kidding. But seriously, where is he? Guess I'll have to re-construct an argument for Linde vs. Jeorge again, don't I? >_> EDIT: Other re-arrangements: Castor and Nabarl are around the bottom of Upper Mid. Jeigan, Nagi, Gotoh, Beck, and Jake are considered the 'fine line' before the usual "hard to train", etc. Edited June 10, 2009 by Colonel M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted June 10, 2009 Author Share Posted June 10, 2009 (edited) NO NEW DEBATES. PERIOD. We need to fix all of the old changes first and foremost before we move on to new business such as Linde vs. Jeorge. It still doesn't look right. Can anybody help me remember what Upper Mid & High tier looked like? I don't remember Upper Mid being this large. Edited June 10, 2009 by Chainey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 (edited) I believe you pegged the people I listed into Lower Mid, which might help a bit. Darros I believe was above Marth and Wendell. Don't know why, but they were. Horace was above a lot more people. Think Draug was higher too. Catria was near the bottom, but I believe she was over both Nabarl and Kashim. I think I was going to argue them next too, but for now this was what it was like. - Darros - Marth - Wendell - Lena - Draug - Horace - Ceasar - Roger - Catria - Castor - Navarre Lower Mid - Beck - Jake - Jeigan - Nagi - Gotoh ... I believe that's how it worked. I already know what to argue once all's said and done. EDIT: If Upper Mid feels too large still, simply throw Darros up there, maybe Marf while we're at it. Edited June 10, 2009 by Colonel M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted June 10, 2009 Author Share Posted June 10, 2009 Did I really put Beck & Jake in lower mid? I honestly don't think I did, because I was very adamant about keeping Jeigan in Upper Mid, regardless of who goes above him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Hm... perhaps you didn't. Yeah, you had those three in Upper Mid. Problem was I believe Upper Mid was just "that large" beforehand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted June 10, 2009 Author Share Posted June 10, 2009 (edited) I will toss some characters into High tier then. Darros might be disadvantaged enough to stay at the top of Upper Mid. EDIT: Weren't Merric & Sheeda *above* the Social Knights? Edited June 10, 2009 by Chainey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 (edited) No, I don't think they were. Damn, this feels like everything got thrown back in time. Why do I feel like we're in FF8? Anywho...From colonel's lower mid, I believe that Minerva scored a place currently below Navarre (and we were arguing it I believe). Then below her was...Castor, then Vyland. Uhhh...not sure from there. Holy crap, original avatar even! Time to fix that. Edited June 10, 2009 by Grandjackal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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