H5 Tier list topic

[grandjackal]

Gordon will rise a bit, but dammit will Bord have fucking skyrocketed. Pole Axes, Silvers and Brave axes before anyone else? lololololol.

Others that would rise are George, Minerva, basically anyone that's of physical class that already has the weapon rank built up.

Otherwise...Not much would change. As for how far they'd rise, I've no clue.

[Rodykitty]

Regardless, people wanted the opportunity to have the online shop factored in, so I'm giving a way to do so without screwing up the original list.

[Robert]

NO! Chainy's golden rules, and the beefed up list are gone!

Etzel above bord?

[Colonel M]

Oh trust me, I can think of mah arguments. Here is my proposed revision of the Upper Mid:

Up Mid:

- Daros

- Roger

- Draug

- Horace

- Ceaser

- Castor

- Navarre

- Dolph

- Catria

- Lena

- Beck

- Jake

- Jagen

K so reasons:

- Lena feels like the Beck / Jake / Jagen route. Let's face reality here... she sucks. Like, there's little reason to actually use her. Can't double, has crappy Mag, no durability, and the only lifesaver is Hammerne. To me, Hammerne is the only thing that's keeping her so damn high.

- Horace at least above Caesar for being a low-resource unit in both General and Hero classes. Can't really double otherwise, but at least he can compensate for some things with items such as Poleaxes or Ridersbane. General might falter thoough due to being quadrupled... We'll have to see how this turns out. I might quickly compare Caesar and Horace to see how that works.

- Kashim and Nabarl > Dolph and Catria. They come a helluva lot sooner and, at this point, are nearing promotion. Dolph comes C12 and Catria in 14, but they need to be rammed a ton of CEXP just to keep up with everyone, which just seems to be something that works against them. Kashim and Nabarl have all the time in the world.

- While I bent toward Darros in Darros vs. Roger, I almost feel like bringing it up because I made it a clusterfuck. Darros requires a LOT of time to train, and he needs it. He's not really impervious until after promotion at best, and he has a lot of work to do. Starting with E in Lances just seems to do him little favors, and having a non-existant Spd growth only worsens it. While Roger is locked into Player Phase as a Hunter, allow me to point out that there are some situations where Darros is being 2RKOed anyway, and by the time Darros has become impervious to most attacks (as in succombing to 3-4RKOes), Roger is at least doubling the Cavaliers and makes good use of a forge. I think the one thing that I want to argue is that Darros is impervious, but it isn't as quickly as others beforehand have made it.

[Rodykitty]

I will consider your arguments, but I would appreciate it if you refrained from making "revisions" to the tier list.

To me, Hammerne is the only thing that's keeping her so damn high.

People have mentioned early warp many times.

And if she falls, Wendell should too somewhere, but not as much as she will.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Chainey

[Colonel M]

Sorry, I just mentioned the revision due to the arguments. Just to make it look clear, I guess.

Let me ponder on a good reason why Rena should drop. Wendell has a slightly better excuse of staying where he is, but I'll point it out later.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Lena does however have reason to be kept alive (Hammerne), unlike Wendell whom you'd likely replace with Etzel, assuming you're going to the gaidens and you don't bitch much about Etzel's D rank in staves.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Sirius

[Dat Nick]

...and why? Wendell would be pwning Etzel by the time he shows. Hard.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

...and why? Wendell would be pwning Etzel by the time he shows. Hard.

I wouldn't say hard since all Wendell will have is enough speed to avoid getting doubled. Wendell only beats Etzel in AS (which is would only be enough to double Generals) and Staves rank while Etzel will win in everything else. Not to mention that Wendell's AS lead will do little to help him late in the game since Brave weapons appear quite soon.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Sirius

[Colonel M]

Here is my version: how far can you really take Warp usage?

There's a grand total of 7 uses, and it's only used in sparse situations (i.e. C5 with saving Hardin and Co.'s asses), but otherwise... there's little that Rena brings to the table. There's Hammerne, but that doesn't come until C19.

Wendell shouldn't drop just because of Warp utility. He brings good chip damage to the table, isn't really dying in one round, and has enough AS to double sometimes. Him having Warp is simply a plus. Auto Excalibur is just the icing on the cake.

That, and once Merric gets Warp (which tbh isn't a major stretch), he's beating Rena in everything. Sure, Rena can have the first one, but her getting the others is where she's finding herself in trouble.

She seems to fit under the utility bill IMO. Promoting her almost seems like a detriment to the team because there are better units that make use of it. Rena gains tomes, and she's crappy at using them anyway. Low AS and low Mag doesn't help her case at all.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Here is my version: how far can you really take Warp usage?

There's a grand total of 7 uses, and it's only used in sparse situations (i.e. C5 with saving Hardin and Co.'s asses), but otherwise... there's little that Rena brings to the table. There's Hammerne, but that doesn't come until C19.

Wendell shouldn't drop just because of Warp utility. He brings good chip damage to the table, isn't really dying in one round, and has enough AS to double sometimes. Him having Warp is simply a plus.

That, and once Merric gets Warp (which tbh isn't a major stretch), he's beating Rena in everything. Sure, Rena can have the first one, but her getting the others is where she's finding herself in trouble.

She seems to fit under the utility bill IMO. Promoting her almost seems like a detriment to the team because there are better units that make use of it. Rena gains tomes, and she's crappy at using them anyway. Low AS and low Mag doesn't help her case at all.

Correction, it is advised in such situations. Players can find more uses for it opening up many possibilities.

[Colonel M]

You see, the more and more you stretch Warp's usage, the closer Merric and Wendell are to using it and benching Rena. Saying that you'd stretch the amount of time it's used only helps their case, not Rena's.

I am not denying that there are times when it is useful, but finding times where it is 100% necessary other than the situation I presented is difficult to find.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dr. Tarrasque]

You see, the more and more you stretch Warp's usage, the closer Merric and Wendell are to using it and benching Rena. Saying that you'd stretch the amount of time it's used only helps their case, not Rena's.

I was nitpicking, not picking sides.

I am not denying that there are times when it is useful, but finding times where it is 100% necessary other than the situation I presented is difficult to find.

This actually helps Lena since you're hinting that there might be situations in which Warp is necessary. No character in this game is entirely necessary (don't hint at the earlygame, I already know) except for of course Marth. If Warp is necessary, then Lena gets big points for having the rank to use it at any given time without any requirement (other than having it in her inventory >_>, if you could call that a requirement) whatsoever.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Sirius

[Rodykitty]

Lena's new position should make sense to many.

Not only is it grouping her with the other "utility specialist" characters, but it also gives her even space between her and Wrys/Gordon and her and Wendell.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Chainey

[grandjackal]

Sounds good to me, though I should note for chapter 6, her being the only warper is amazing, and here's why.

The thieves that pick the treasure? Only one way to go. The upper right exit, and it's only a space wide. General Sedgar or Wolf should be an indefinite roadblock, and you can easily catch the thief with the armorslayer before he runs off. Hell, even Armor Darros can be plugged right there, and she's the only one who can do it. Saves you a LOT of time picking chests, and possibly saves you a LOT of keys....If we can buy keys at this point.

Certainly saves up those master keys.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Kuja

[Colonel M]

Really the only Thief that got away was the one with the Killing Edge, which I shrugged and said "who cares?". Every other Thief got my items and I killed them way before they reached that point, and the one chest is easily salvagable. That, and you get Rickard on this chapter so all you waste possibly is a Door Key.

[Rodykitty]

which I shrugged and said "who cares?"

Being that the Kill Sword is basically a Steel Sword with less weight, I'm sure several units would.

[Colonel M]

Being that the Kill Sword is basically a Steel Sword with less weight, I'm sure several units would.

Most units either have the AS to compensate for it or nearing the Str stat to wield it. Besides, there's always forged Iron Swords if you're that desperate.

[grandjackal]

Most units either have the AS to compensate for it or nearing the Str stat to wield it. Besides, there's always forged Iron Swords if you're that desperate.

Why bother when you are essentially getting the same thing WITH CRIT for free?

Besides, the ignored fact is this strategy means you don't have to focus on the thieves as much, if at all. Besides, last I checked, Wolf/Zag/Darros would love that little nudge forward in exp...

Speaking of Wolf and Zag...Methinks someone should be over someone else due to, ya know, better offense...Don't ya think? Come on, ya know ya wanna.

"But Zag's invincible eventually!"

He's having quite a bit o trouble at first, and Wolf's too damn hard to kill anyways.

He also has better base speed, luck (for crit, and it IS a problem, at least at first, no matter how y'all like to avoid it), and will develop a strength lead. Only time this is moot is when the level gap closes, and when would that be exactly?It's not immediately, I can tell you that. This means that Wolf can eventually switch over to something like Warrior that much sooner and be that much more effective a unit. He's still hard as fuck to kill, but now he can double shit with axes, still hit fucking hard while not having to rely on slayers to kill anything, and can still shoot Wyverns out the sky (speaking of strength lead, he gets to OHKO with slayers that much sooner, same deal with mages)

Come on, do eet!

Edited June 11, 2009 by Kuja

[Rodykitty]

An invincible character is making the rest of the team's offense better. Doing so sooner is more free EXP to your whole army.

[grandjackal]

An invincible character is making the rest of the team's offense better. Doing so sooner is more free EXP to your whole army.

Does is matter when the other character in question is never dying anyways? Wolf with better offense is easier free exp for your whole army.

Beisdes, know the problem with being invincible? Ask FE5 Sety. They're islands no one will visit unless it's the only place to go. If there are any other options, they're going for it. Thus Wolf's greater strength is putting more dents in people than Zag's thick armor.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

"Greater" strength? Hardly. It's just a 1-2 points of damage difference.

[grandjackal]

"Greater" strength? Hardly. It's just a 1-2 points of damage difference.

1-2 points closer to OHKO with slayers, and with his speed lead, he can switch to a class with actual speed, and that would be 2-4 more damage, as Wolf is doubling sooner than Zag.

Unless you can prove to me the level gap closes at a reasonable time...Not exactly instant ya know.

[Colonel M]

First off, Wolf lacks the Def growth to that of Zagaro's. Wolf has 90%, Zagaro has 110%. The latter is actually cleaning up, in terms of Def, faster than Wolf.

Since Zag and Wolf aren't about offense and, moreso, about Def, that's why I think Zag > Wolf. Only time the extra Str helps Wolf is when he's a Hero or Warrior (funny: Warrior has 200% HP and 120% Str growth, but he REALLY needs the latter).

Besides, the ignored fact is this strategy means you don't have to focus on the thieves as much, if at all. Besides, last I checked, Wolf/Zag/Darros would love that little nudge forward in exp...

Last I checked, there's that Cavalier with a Silver Lance, which I know for a fact that they won't enjoy at all. I understand the Kill Sword has worth, but I'm not hellbent on getting it, 'tis all. Besides, free Crit can screw you over sometimes and just leave you into deeper trouble.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

First off, Wolf lacks the Def growth to that of Zagaro's. Wolf has 90%, Zagaro has 110%. The latter is actually cleaning up, in terms of Def, faster than Wolf.

Since Zag and Wolf aren't about offense and, moreso, about Def, that's why I think Zag > Wolf. Only time the extra Str helps Wolf is when he's a Hero or Warrior (funny: Warrior has 200% HP and 120% Str growth, but he REALLY needs the latter).

When it gets to the point you're hard as hell to kill anyways, there's no point in staying general. Wolf would rather go Warrior and he can do so sooner thanks to having a speed lead, unless you can show when their level gap closes exactly.

Last I checked, there's that Cavalier with a Silver Lance, which I know for a fact that they won't enjoy at all. I understand the Kill Sword has worth, but I'm not hellbent on getting it, 'tis all. Besides, free Crit can screw you over sometimes and just leave you into deeper trouble.

This isn't FE3 XD I didn't mean do it immediately. As long as it gets blocked before the thieves escape, it matters not when you actually do it. Those cavaliers don't stay put, they charge to attack your forces. You can take care of them first, then warp.