H5 Tier list topic

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Two options, incase Chainey overrules the other.

First, pure Armor Knight -> General Doga

Now, roughly 5 Levels Hunter (just to boost Spd, again) / Armor Knight -> General Doga

Taking C18 as the example, pure Armor Knight -> General Doga has 41 HP / 21 Def at 20/1. He isn't doubled except by Horseman (I lied. He isn't doubled by these guys either). Everything here should help my argument:

Other Doga has 40 HP / 19 Def, but trades a slight amount of durability to loldouble Cavs.

If the fort can heal Doga in the first place, then why mention it?

And keep in mind I'm assuming worst case scenario here. Doga will be higher than 20/1 at this point.

Then there's Brave weapons in the following chapters which Doga will easily lose to. Not to mention that Darros will be ahead in Lance rank due to Draug having to switch to hunter so for some time and if Draug doubling the cavs with Ridersbane in this example, that's taking EXP from the team and without Ridersbine, it pretty much ends up being around the same as Darros with Ridersbane.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Sirius

[Colonel M]

Then there's Brave weapons in the following chapters which Doga will easily lose to. Not to mention that Darros will be ahead in Lance rank due to Draug having to switch to hunter so for some time and if Draug doubling the cavs with Ridersbane in this example, that's taking EXP from the team and without Ridersbine, it pretty much ends up being around the same as Darros with Ridersbane.

Gahahahaha...

You notice he's not being quadrupled and has a higher Def stat at that point than even what I represented in C18. Him and Darros have likely promoted at this point and are nearing Level 5-6 by the time Braves show up at worst, so that means that either Doga set-up has gained probably 2 more Def. And Darros won't be ahead in the Lance rank because Doga could likely have a C before C4 when Darros has a pitiful E Rank. And it's almost like you're giving into Doga having the advantage on Darros offensively too? Hmm...

This might be interesting to debate. MIGHT.

EDIT: Okay, there is a minor discrepency. The Hunter set-up, he won't be quadrupled almost ever. If the pure Armor Knight -> General Doga can hit 20/6, he ends with about 17 Spd, which is still pretty good since you won't see high end AS Snipers and Heroes until C23 IIRC.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Gahahahaha...

You notice he's not being quadrupled and has a higher Def stat at that point than even what I represented in C18. Him and Darros have likely promoted at this point and are nearing Level 5-6 by the time Braves show up at worst, so that means that either Doga set-up has gained probably 2 more Def. And Darros won't be ahead in the Lance rank because Doga could likely have a C before C4 when Darros has a pitiful E Rank. And it's almost like you're giving into Doga having the advantage on Darros offensively too? Hmm...

This might be interesting to debate. MIGHT.

EDIT: Okay, there is a minor discrepency. The Hunter set-up, he won't be quadrupled almost ever. If the pure Armor Knight -> General Doga can hit 20/6, he ends with about 17 Spd, which is still pretty good since you won't see high end AS Snipers and Heroes until C23 IIRC.

Because being quadrupled matters when he's seeing 0 Damage right? Darros promotes earlier, must I go into detail on that again?

If a unit is doubling and his STR isn't too far off from the other then of course he has the offensive, you'd be retarded to deny such a thing.

Then we have to deal with Pure Knight Draug which sucks and it was already established that Fighter > Berserker was his best class no? If you're going to have a character rise above another, you have to compare them with their best classes.

[Don Draper]

Sorry to interrupt the current debate, but have we ever concluded whether supports with Marth stack as well? I heard something about Marth not providing bonuses if other supporters were in range, but I always remember Barst getting +10% critical when Marth and Ogma were close by way back in my normal mode playthrough. I'd test it, but I can't atm.

[grandjackal]

Pretty sure if you have 3 supporters already, Marth has no effect. Otherwise, they stack. I think...

But another option for armor knight Darros is once he hits his defense cap, he could always switch to hunter to build up weapon rank for General.

[Colonel M]

Because being quadrupled matters when he's seeing 0 Damage right? Darros promotes earlier, must I go into detail on that again?

Doga has gotten more than 20/1, and he isn't being quadrupled. Sure Darros is taking 0 damage, but Doga here isn't exactly "struggling" either.

If a unit is doubling and his STR isn't too far off from the other then of course he has the offensive, you'd be retarded to deny such a thing.

K.

Then we have to deal with Pure Knight Draug which sucks and it was already established that Fighter > Berserker was his best class no? If you're going to have a character rise above another, you have to compare them with their best classes.

How exactly does it suck? Think of it like this: pure Armor Knight Doga takes roughly the same damage as Darros does, sometimes less pending on the situation. Assume both are Level 4 and Darros here got reclassed into Armor Knight:

Darros: 22 HP / 12 Def

Doga: 22 HP / 12 Def

And they're both the same.

So here's the difference: since Darros being doubled = Doga taking a single hit (sometimes less even) is helping out. Come C6, Doga isn't dying in one round to Mages. 6X, assuming Doga is Level 8, he isn't doubled by Pirates (the AS rating isn't listed but I'll just assume it's the same as C2). C9 is the same situation for Doga vs. Darros, and so on.

Like I've said, it's not until promotion where Darros has the "I take no damage" scenario, and that still doesn't happen until C20 when Braves roll in. And Doga here isn't losing by a fuckton either. If he has his Hunter scenario, then he has 20 Def, and by 20/5 it's about 22. He's taking lol6 damage against the Paladins and has over 40 HP. Tell me how soon he's really dying in the first place?

The main point is that here, Doga is almost Darros's equal. One falters slightly in some situations when both are doubled while one falters slightly when the other isn't being doubled. The only time Darros has a clear-cut advantage isn't until Lategame, and Doga isn't faltering much behind and had a better start and opportunity to start with D Lances, possibly have Ridersbane early, and can go Hunter for a short time and dig out of the being doubled rut. Are we clear now?

I could go with Fighter -> Berserker Doga if you'd like though. K, so let's say Doga got 2 levels worse as an Armor Knight. Here's what we net with Fighter Doga:

Doga: 23 HP | 6 Str | 3 Skl | 11 Spd | 2 Luck | 4 Def

Darros: 22 HP | 8 Str | 3 Skl | 1 Spd | 3 Luck | 12 Def | - Res

K, so here Doga's got some offense on him. They're both dying in the same amount of rounds.

So about C6 they'll both have their ranks up to D. Pit them at Level 6:

Doga: 26 HP | 8 Str | 4 Skl | 12 Spd | 3 Luck | 4 Def

Darros: 23 HP | 8 Str | 4 Skl | 1 Spd | 4 Luck | 14 Def

K, so they both again are the same defensively to an extent other than the Mage situation. To compare durability, it takes 30 Atk to actually ORKO him. For Darros, it takes 19 Atk when doubling. Just to show that Doga here has a durability lead (shocking, isn't it?)

Armor Knights are tough as nails, but Doga has access to Steel Axe. His AS drops to 10, but he still has Hand Axe which shouldn't do anything and Iron Axe which definitely won't drop his AS by now. 34 HP / 12 Def are how tough these guys are, and it takes 23 Atk to ORKO. Obviously not even Doga is reaching that and certainly Darros isn't either. Doga has 18 Atk with the Steel Axe while Darros has about 17 Atk with the Steel Lance. Doga here can 3RKO them, while lolDarros does nevermind. As for the situation due to Darros not being doubled by these guys, he takes about 9 damage. Doga is dying in two hits, but he takes 17 damage. So yeah, Darros is doing a bit better defensively on these guys.

Doga offensively on Mages is better, so that isn't anything to argue. As for the two Cavaliers present, they have roughly the same stats (21 Atk, 9 AS, 30 HP, 7 Def). The Silver Lance dude brags 26 Atk. Watch out Darros! Doga here isn't being ORKOed by either of them though. Hefty amount of damage is taken, but it's 20 damage for Doga here from the Silver guy in comparison to lol24 to Darros.

But the whole "I can't double" won't last very long. 6X Doga would have the slightly better advantage, but Darros isn't exactly getting destroyed except by Mercs. Though Pirates do hefty amount of damage due to doubling Darros and WTA. C7, assume both get two levels again. Notice Darros is about 14 Def tall and 24 HP wide possibly. Doga here has about 13 AS, almost 14 and 9 Str. So as soon as... C8, Doga here will have a pretty hefty lead in being able to double, so damage output is doing him wonders. By Level 10, he'll have enough Str to double with the Steel Axe, so his rut is over after that. Then, it's Doga having the superior damage output and dying about the same number of rounds as Darros does.

If I really have to strike Berserker onto General Darros, I will. But, for now, I don't want people to say ZOMGWALLOTEXT!

But another option for armor knight Darros is once he hits his defense cap, he could always switch to hunter to build up weapon rank for General.

To be frankly honest, it's almost better for Darros to do so. I'm not 100% sure if this is quite possible, but I think this way you can exceed the Def cap a bit better and net yourself with 25 Def at 20/1. Don't quote me on that though because I'm uncertain about it. Since it's simply your absolute base stats + the class base stats, I think I'm correct by saying Darros can have more Def than by an early promotion. But Doga isn't losing a whole hell of a lot either.

Unfortunately Hunter / Armor Knight -> General Darros only helps solidify my Hunter / Armor Knight -> General Doga, which is clearly the superior route anyway.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Doga has gotten more than 20/1, and he isn't being quadrupled. Sure Darros is taking 0 damage, but Doga here isn't exactly "struggling" either.

Recall Warp?

How exactly does it suck? Think of it like this: pure Armor Knight Doga takes roughly the same damage as Darros does, sometimes less pending on the situation. Assume both are Level 4 and Darros here got reclassed into Armor Knight:

Darros: 22 HP / 12 Def

Doga: 22 HP / 12 Def

And they're both the same.

So here's the difference: since Darros being doubled = Doga taking a single hit (sometimes less even) is helping out. Come C6, Doga isn't dying in one round to Mages. 6X, assuming Doga is Level 8, he isn't doubled by Pirates (the AS rating isn't listed but I'll just assume it's the same as C2). C9 is the same situation for Doga vs. Darros, and so on.

Like I've said, it's not until promotion where Darros has the "I take no damage" scenario, and that still doesn't happen until C20 when Braves roll in. And Doga here isn't losing by a fuckton either. If he has his Hunter scenario, then he has 20 Def, and by 20/5 it's about 22. He's taking lol6 damage against the Paladins and has over 40 HP. Tell me how soon he's really dying in the first place?

The main point is that here, Doga is almost Darros's equal. One falters slightly in some situations when both are doubled while one falters slightly when the other isn't being doubled. The only time Darros has a clear-cut advantage isn't until Lategame, and Doga isn't faltering much behind and had a better start and opportunity to start with D Lances, possibly have Ridersbane early, and can go Hunter for a short time and dig out of the being doubled rut. Are we clear now?

I could go with Fighter -> Berserker Doga if you'd like though. K, so let's say Doga got 2 levels worse as an Armor Knight. Here's what we net with Fighter Doga:

Doga: 23 HP | 6 Str | 3 Skl | 11 Spd | 2 Luck | 4 Def

Darros: 22 HP | 8 Str | 3 Skl | 1 Spd | 3 Luck | 12 Def | - Res

K, so here Doga's got some offense on him. They're both dying in the same amount of rounds.

So about C6 they'll both have their ranks up to D. Pit them at Level 6:

Doga: 26 HP | 8 Str | 4 Skl | 12 Spd | 3 Luck | 4 Def

Darros: 23 HP | 8 Str | 4 Skl | 1 Spd | 4 Luck | 14 Def

K, so they both again are the same defensively to an extent other than the Mage situation. To compare durability, it takes 30 Atk to actually ORKO him. For Darros, it takes 19 Atk when doubling. Just to show that Doga here has a durability lead (shocking, isn't it?)

Armor Knights are tough as nails, but Doga has access to Steel Axe. His AS drops to 10, but he still has Hand Axe which shouldn't do anything and Iron Axe which definitely won't drop his AS by now. 34 HP / 12 Def are how tough these guys are, and it takes 23 Atk to ORKO. Obviously not even Doga is reaching that and certainly Darros isn't either. Doga has 18 Atk with the Steel Axe while Darros has about 17 Atk with the Steel Lance. Doga here can 3RKO them, while lolDarros does nevermind. As for the situation due to Darros not being doubled by these guys, he takes about 9 damage. Doga is dying in two hits, but he takes 17 damage. So yeah, Darros is doing a bit better defensively on these guys.

Doga offensively on Mages is better, so that isn't anything to argue. As for the two Cavaliers present, they have roughly the same stats (21 Atk, 9 AS, 30 HP, 7 Def). The Silver Lance dude brags 26 Atk. Watch out Darros! Doga here isn't being ORKOed by either of them though. Hefty amount of damage is taken, but it's 20 damage for Doga here from the Silver guy in comparison to lol24 to Darros.

But the whole "I can't double" won't last very long. 6X Doga would have the slightly better advantage, but Darros isn't exactly getting destroyed except by Mercs. Though Pirates do hefty amount of damage due to doubling Darros and WTA. C7, assume both get two levels again. Notice Darros is about 14 Def tall and 24 HP wide possibly. Doga here has about 13 AS, almost 14 and 9 Str. So as soon as... C8, Doga here will have a pretty hefty lead in being able to double, so damage output is doing him wonders. By Level 10, he'll have enough Str to double with the Steel Axe, so his rut is over after that. Then, it's Doga having the superior damage output and dying about the same number of rounds as Darros does.

If I really have to strike Berserker onto General Darros, I will. But, for now, I don't want people to say ZOMGWALLOTEXT!

To be frankly honest, it's almost better for Darros to do so. I'm not 100% sure if this is quite possible, but I think this way you can exceed the Def cap a bit better and net yourself with 25 Def at 20/1. Don't quote me on that though because I'm uncertain about it. Since it's simply your absolute base stats + the class base stats, I think I'm correct by saying Darros can have more Def than by an early promotion. But Doga isn't losing a whole hell of a lot either.

Unfortunately Hunter / Armor Knight -> General Darros only helps solidify my Hunter / Armor Knight -> General Doga, which is clearly the superior route anyway.

The bolded is an inaccuracy. How does doubling with 19 ATK 1RKO something when each hit is doing 4 (WTD) - 6 (WTA) damage?

Also, most of this wall of text is already stuff that has been taken into account in each and every stinking comparison there is with Darros: He has sucky offense and a bad earlygame, it's a stinking fact that has been stated too many time, acknowledged and never denied. Also, brining up Hunter/Armor Knight > General Darros is pointless as you know damn well that it is JUST AK > GENERAL that is always debated. A level or 2 of hunter is just to prevent some mages from doubling him which is a minuscule point and a waste of time.

The point is that he makes up for all this with his superb midgame and lategame. 24 DEF and 60% Growth possible from late C12 is huge when you're commonly seeing 27 ATK, this is what you need to argue against, not the stinking earlygame or an offense because then you're just sandbagging something that is already conceded long before you even brought up thus, redundant.

I'll admit that Roger and Draug have nice comparisons with Darros with all this class juggling you're constantly bringing up but why bring up comparisons with different class sets? What the hell is the point? Just pick the best class set for the character and then argue with it because all you're doing with such gimmicks is just posting wall of texts trying to make your characters look good while targeting points that are already conceded. What's the point in that?

So which is it? Pirate/Fighter > Berserker or this hybrid General thing?

If you think Darros can go down, fine, use the overall best class setup for Draug and prove it. Sorry if I seem a bit angry but it's getting tedious to debate different against multiple class setups when it should just be between the best class setups -__-

Edited June 15, 2009 by Sirius

[Don Draper]

Pretty sure if you have 3 supporters already, Marth has no effect. Otherwise, they stack. I think...

But another option for armor knight Darros is once he hits his defense cap, he could always switch to hunter to build up weapon rank for General.

Hmm...alright. I was kind of hoping somebody had done some tests. I'll be able to in a week if nobody does any by then.

[Colonel M]

Fine. Fighter / Pirate -> Berserker Doga it is.

They both take about the same amount of hits defensively, which we've pointed out 1000 times over and over again.

As for the durability ordeal, take this for example. A 26 Atk unit is up against a 30 HP / 12 Def unit that isn't doubled and a 30 HP / 17 Def unit that is doubled. The non-doubled unit takes 14 damage, which is a 3RKO. The 17 Def unit takes 18 damage, which is a 2RKO. This is what I mean: this isn't inaccurate. It is partially when Darros isn't doubled, but fine me a time that he isn't. If the unit is doubling him, it takes that much Atk that I represented to ORKO him. Now this doesn't mean Darros is at a major loss. Take 23 Atk now, which does 11 damage per round on the first unit and 12 damage on the second. This is what I mean: the more Atk, the less and less Darros's major Def seems. But obviously we went over this, so I'm not going to even re-hash this for the thousandth time.

Again, recall that Doga is under the Armor Knight class from C1-3, meaning that two levels isn't a major sin to him. Same with Darros getting 1 Level. Difference is Doga had C1 lead over Darros, but w/e right?

Both have roughly the same chip damage. Difference is it turns around a bit. I showed C6 for an example when Doga has the advantage on Atk on him. By C8, he should be doubling most of the time. By C10, he should have enough Str and Spd to double everything and at least dent them. Cavs with 33 HP / 8-9 Def are 2RKOed by Doga. The only time Darros can match that is when he's wielding a Ridersbane, which is starting to run low on usage due to it coming all the way back in C4ish. Doga can wield a Hammer by now which is dealing massive damage to Armor Knights, and now Darros has nothing on this. Pegasus Knights suffer to Doga's WTA, but Darros here isn't dying quickly either: they have piss poor Atk. DracoKnights are hard to kill for both of them, so skip that.

After all that re-hashing, saying Doga is walking off is a difficult thing to say. Darros has moments where his durability is better, and there's also C13 where having Armor Knights / Generals is more of a good thing than a bad thing. He can choke things, but the main point is getting up to that point. I'll follow with your late C12 promotion and say Doga is promoting by C14 at worse, k?

17/4 Darros: durability of gods, but 26 Def.

20/1 Doga: 41 HP | 16 Str | 10 Skl | 19 Spd | 7 Luck | 7 Def.

He has about 30 Atk with the Silver Axe. Anyway, crossing to Darros here, he cannot ORKO so let's face that reality. Here, Doga is doing that easily. 30 Atk is difficult to shrug off. FFS, if Pegs sit at 15 AS, they're doubled. That just shows how much of a killface he is. He only misses ORKOing the Sniper on this chapter and that's because he can't double.

Being 2RKOed? Lawl. It takes 28 Atk to do so, and no one here can really reach that. The closest here is Jiol but he suffers WTD in the first place, so forget about that. Not that a Hammer doesn't shut him up in the first place.

I'm just going to say that Darros is definitely impervious to Braves once they arrive. Until then, Doga has C15, 16 he can cross the water while Darros cannot, 17 Doga's only real fear is... nothing? I guess the Mages and Bishops cause trouble as well as Mamkutes. K Darros, you can at least have the latter, but not the former. C17X is lawl. Poleaxe are available by now so he's WTFraeping if he wasn't in the first place. 18 and 19 should have the same situations, though it's Doga's ORKOing offense and not really dying that fast versus Darros 2RKOing at best and being immune.

Then comes C20. 20/5 Doga has 44 HP, 18 Atk, and 21 AS. I think his Def is freaking obvious. Brave Lance Paladins with 25 Atk 2RKOes, but a forged Poleaxe can OHKO them anyway. It takes a whopping 62 Atk max in order to do so, but with 43 is needed from the Poleaxe. Well, it takes about 15 Mt in order to do so, which is +6. However, this doesn't mean Doga can't ORKO them in the first place. He can even take on Camus and at least 2RKO him with the Poleaxe while not being doubled. Max Def Darros takes 24 damage while Doga takes 32. Both are 2RKOed, but just saying Darros isn't doing a whole hell of a lot. C21 and C22 is pretty simple: Doga can double most of the units here. The DracoKnights aren't even a terrible stretch. C22 he can't double Pegasus Knights at worst. C23 is Helltower where Doga, again, takes roost. C24 is tricky because Doga needs about 23 AS in order to prevent himself from being doubled, which doesn't happen until Level 20/8-9, but even Darros takes quite a bit at this point: Darros takes 18 Damage against Fire Mamkutes with 39 Atk and the Mage Mamkutes shouldn't shut out Darros in one shot. Obviously the 40 and 41 Atk Fire Mamkutes do more to Darros, but I think you get the point of him being 3RKOed and Mage Mamkutes 2RKO. Doga can't really crush them in one shot... and Darros has the Dragonpike and that's about it.

Endgame I'd say it's "Warpskipped" but fine. After re-evaluating, Doga needs quite a bit of Hero in order to bypass the problem of being doubled by Medeus and such. Both lose here against him.

If that wasn't enough, 20/1 Doga has 10 innate Crit, so Killer Axes gain 30% chance to kill in one shot. Heighten that with a small forge from time to time, +5 from Marth, and then there's +5 from Skill. Seeing 40% chance to Crit without a forge is pretty impressive, which means 40% of the time Doga might not even take damage in the first place (Player Phase). +10% Crit forge can heighten this to a coin flip.

Summary:

- Doga and Darros are roughly the same offensively and defensively except in a few situations (Doga + Hammer, Darros + Ridersbane).

- Doga, once doubling, will be able to do more damage than Darros could ever dream of. Which can happen pretty soon with his 50% Spd growth.

- Upon promotion, Darros isn't QUITE invincible (sometimes he'll take a little bit of damage), but Doga isn't falling like a rock either. He can ORKO pretty easily. Even with a Hand Axe with it's 8 Mt combined with his 18 Atk, he can hit 26 Atk. Cavs with 36 HP / 10 Def can nearly be ORKOed. It takes a little more Mt on a Hand Axe otherwise, but he's damn close (as in he's doing 32 damage per round).

- Once Braves show up, it's Doga's offense versus Darros's Def.

EDIT: While we're at it, I want to say Fighter -> Hero Roger > Hunter -> Warrior Roger.

Former

Latter

Edited June 15, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Fine. Fighter / Pirate -> Berserker Doga it is.

They both take about the same amount of hits defensively, which we've pointed out 1000 times over and over again.

As for the durability ordeal, take this for example. A 26 Atk unit is up against a 30 HP / 12 Def unit that isn't doubled and a 30 HP / 17 Def unit that is doubled. The non-doubled unit takes 14 damage, which is a 3RKO. The 17 Def unit takes 18 damage, which is a 2RKO. This is what I mean: this isn't inaccurate. It is partially when Darros isn't doubled, but fine me a time that he isn't. If the unit is doubling him, it takes that much Atk that I represented to ORKO him. Now this doesn't mean Darros is at a major loss. Take 23 Atk now, which does 11 damage per round on the first unit and 12 damage on the second. This is what I mean: the more Atk, the less and less Darros's major Def seems. But obviously we went over this, so I'm not going to even re-hash this for the thousandth time.

Again, recall that Doga is under the Armor Knight class from C1-3, meaning that two levels isn't a major sin to him. Same with Darros getting 1 Level. Difference is Doga had C1 lead over Darros, but w/e right?

Both have roughly the same chip damage. Difference is it turns around a bit. I showed C6 for an example when Doga has the advantage on Atk on him. By C8, he should be doubling most of the time. By C10, he should have enough Str and Spd to double everything and at least dent them. Cavs with 33 HP / 8-9 Def are 2RKOed by Doga. The only time Darros can match that is when he's wielding a Ridersbane, which is starting to run low on usage due to it coming all the way back in C4ish. Doga can wield a Hammer by now which is dealing massive damage to Armor Knights, and now Darros has nothing on this. Pegasus Knights suffer to Doga's WTA, but Darros here isn't dying quickly either: they have piss poor Atk. DracoKnights are hard to kill for both of them, so skip that.

As already said, I concede that Doga's earlygame and offense is clearly better than Darros'

After all that re-hashing, saying Doga is walking off is a difficult thing to say. Darros has moments where his durability is better, and there's also C13 where having Armor Knights / Generals is more of a good thing than a bad thing. He can choke things, but the main point is getting up to that point. I'll follow with your late C12 promotion and say Doga is promoting by C14 at worse, k?

C12 promotion can happen for Darros as he can promote once reaching 20 DEF which as you yourself noted is very possible a few levels before 20. At this point, there's 3 promotion items and 2 of them are most likely going to the other people who've reached the end of their necessary leveling: Your curates/clerics or other units that are higher leveled at this point so Draug's most likely going to get promotion mid-C16

17/4 Darros: durability of gods, but 26 Def.

20/1 Doga: 41 HP | 16 Str | 10 Skl | 19 Spd | 7 Luck | 7 Def.

He has about 30 Atk with the Silver Axe. Anyway, crossing to Darros here, he cannot ORKO so let's face that reality. Here, Doga is doing that easily. 30 Atk is difficult to shrug off. FFS, if Pegs sit at 15 AS, they're doubled. That just shows how much of a killface he is. He only misses ORKOing the Sniper on this chapter and that's because he can't double.

Being 2RKOed? Lawl. It takes 28 Atk to do so, and no one here can really reach that. The closest here is Jiol but he suffers WTD in the first place, so forget about that. Not that a Hammer doesn't shut him up in the first place.

This doesn't change the fact that Darros definitely sees more enemy phase easily though I have to admit that this is impressive for Draug, assuming he is promoted at this point that is. Nice find though, I suggested Fighter > Berserker as a joke at first but wow this is a very nice payoff.

I'm just going to say that Darros is definitely impervious to Braves once they arrive. Until then, Doga has C15, 16 he can cross the water while Darros cannot, 17 Doga's only real fear is... nothing? I guess the Mages and Bishops cause trouble as well as Mamkutes. K Darros, you can at least have the latter, but not the former. C17X is lawl. Poleaxe are available by now so he's WTFraeping if he wasn't in the first place. 18 and 19 should have the same situations, though it's Doga's ORKOing offense and not really dying that fast versus Darros 2RKOing at best and being immune.

While Darros may not be seeing 0 damage at this point, you gotta admit that the damage enemies are doing to him is pretty laughable, 2-3 resulting in a shitload of hits for him to get killed. C15 is definitely a win for Doga as this is where Generals undeniably suck. Water Walking in C16 isn't much of an advantage as he's not able to go up to a group of enemies without ending up in serious danger. While it's a decent advantage, it has minuscule in this chapter because you're not going to leave Doga behind so that he has to cross the water and catch up with the team are you? There's several forts here so as you can see, Darros has that cheap broken DEF + Warp combination I brought up earlier.

Holy shit C17 is pitiful.

C17x is a chokepoint heavy map and guess who's better at these? It's undeniable that Doga wins offense but winning durability to the degree that Darros is quite a huge asset to the team because as you know, Darros bring some decent punishment to the enemies while able to take some serious abuse (except mages of course) himself and weakened enemies food for other units, like Draug for example, who doesn't like killing an enemy without fear of counter-attack? This also greatly helps other units such as Catria, Roger, Caesar and even the high tier units like Barst, Cord, Abel, Cain and Ogma who are seeing promotion in the coming chapters and love how Darros lures and weakens the enemies to point where they're delicious cake for them.

Then comes C20. 20/5 Doga has 44 HP, 18 Atk, and 21 AS. I think his Def is freaking obvious. Brave Lance Paladins with 25 Atk 2RKOes, but a forged Poleaxe can OHKO them anyway. It takes a whopping 62 Atk max in order to do so, but with 43 is needed from the Poleaxe. Well, it takes about 15 Mt in order to do so, which is +6. However, this doesn't mean Doga can't ORKO them in the first place. He can even take on Camus and at least 2RKO him with the Poleaxe while not being doubled. Max Def Darros takes 24 damage while Doga takes 32. Both are 2RKOed, but just saying Darros isn't doing a whole hell of a lot. C21 and C22 is pretty simple: Doga can double most of the units here. The DracoKnights aren't even a terrible stretch. C22 he can't double Pegasus Knights at worst. C23 is Helltower where Doga, again, takes roost. C24 is tricky because Doga needs about 23 AS in order to prevent himself from being doubled, which doesn't happen until Level 20/8-9, but even Darros takes quite a bit at this point: Darros takes 18 Damage against Fire Mamkutes with 39 Atk and the Mage Mamkutes shouldn't shut out Darros in one shot. Obviously the 40 and 41 Atk Fire Mamkutes do more to Darros, but I think you get the point of him being 3RKOed and Mage Mamkutes 2RKO. Doga can't really crush them in one shot... and Darros has the Dragonpike and that's about it.

Wait, a forged Poleaxe? I didn't know we were debating the wifi shop tier list atm. Oh and forged Poleaxe isn't going to stop Doga from getting hit twice in the enemy phase before he nukes, this example would greatly help Bord whose shit speed means he'll be doubled and could actually prevent that shit if he 1 hit KOs on the counter-attack. Against Manaketes, I think they're both seeing the same durability, barring the magic ones of course but Darros' counter-attack against them at least isn't bad due to access to Dragon Pike and guess who has the superior ranged weapon against them? C23's another bad chapter for Darros, not denying that one but Darros has clearly been much more useful in the chapters where he's great due to how broken WTFDEF is.

Endgame I'd say it's "Warpskipped" but fine. If Doga can get a Speedwing, he can prevent himself from being doubled by Medeus if he hits 20/12. You can speed this up as a Hero and only lose out on 2 Atk. Just using it indoors should suffice, or simply reclass here and you should hit the magic 24 AS number.

Actually, I wasn't gonna bring up endgame but this helps me more than it helps you as Darros doesn't need a speedwing or any stat booster to be able to take on Mediuth since a General needs HP + (DEF x 2) = 101 to be able to fight him. Doga being mostly a direct attacker, he's less efficient for this fight as you can't place a Recover staff user behind him without running the risk of Medeus kicking that person's ass while Darros can just throw Gradivus at Mediuth for some damage, survive and get healed with Recover without the risk previously mentioned.

Summary:

- Doga and Darros are roughly the same offensively and defensively except in a few situations (Doga + Hammer, Darros + Ridersbane).

- Doga, once doubling, will be able to do more damage than Darros could ever dream of. Which can happen pretty soon with his 50% Spd growth.

- Upon promotion, Darros isn't QUITE invincible (sometimes he'll take a little bit of damage), but Doga isn't falling like a rock either. He can 2RKO pretty easily. Even with a Hand Axe with it's 8 Mt combined with his 18 Atk, he can hit 26 Atk. Cavs with 36 HP / 10 Def can nearly be ORKOed. It takes a little more Mt on a Hand Axe otherwise, but he's damn close (as in he's doing 32 damage per round).

- Once Braves show up, it's Doga's offense versus Darros's Def.

Summary:

-True for the earlygame in terms of durability but complete bullshit for the offense. Draug pretty much wins that one.

-True

-While not invincible, he's still much more durable than Doga is, can see more enemy phase action and can only continue to increase in durability until immortality to non-manakete and other few exceptions physical attacks. While it may not look like much, it certainly is more help to the team to cripple several units than to have great offense at the cost of seeing durability close to several other units.

-Which the winner is clear. Immortality to most attacks = fuck yes. Seriously, an immortal unit would be all that you need in the lategame. You could literally not field any1 else in some of the chapters and have Darros + Warp nuke everything faster than you normally could in the traditional style of play. Draug would just be able to kill the and that's not getting him much improvement O_o

[Colonel M]

C12 promotion can happen for Darros as he can promote once reaching 20 DEF which as you yourself noted is very possible a few levels before 20. At this point, there's 3 promotion items and 2 of them are most likely going to the other people who've reached the end of their necessary leveling: Your curates/clerics or other units that are higher leveled at this point so Draug's most likely going to get promotion mid-C16

C16. Well alright. Most of the time I'd just assume one would buy Master Seals but since they're only available 3 days of the month and such. Still, it's WiFi argument so...

This doesn't change the fact that Darros definitely sees more enemy phase easily though I have to admit that this is impressive for Draug, assuming he is promoted at this point that is. Nice find though, I suggested Fighter > Berserker as a joke at first but wow this is a very nice payoff.

I was shocked too. Wait until you find Hero has 24 AS. Overkill much?

While Darros may not be seeing 0 damage at this point, you gotta admit that the damage enemies are doing to him is pretty laughable, 2-3 resulting in a shitload of hits for him to get killed.

Definitely cannot. Like said, C13 is a perfect example when being the General is awesome.

C15 is definitely a win for Doga as this is where Generals undeniably suck. Water Walking in C16 isn't much of an advantage as he's not able to go up to a group of enemies without ending up in serious danger. While it's a decent advantage, it has minuscule in this chapter because you're not going to leave Doga behind so that he has to cross the water and catch up with the team are you? There's several forts here so as you can see, Darros has that cheap broken DEF + Warp combination I brought up earlier.

Can't recall, but I think you also gain +20 Def sitting on there. Not sure though. He can at least sit on the Water and chuck a Hand Axe during the Enemy Phase.

Also, Doga can sit on a Fort. Simply equip a Hand Axe and watch 9 Def actually do something for him, with healing intact. Ranged combat on Horseman is the main reason, and you aren't nuking yourself using the Hand Axe (you shouldn't ORKO them, and they can't 2RKO you back).

Holy shit C17 is pitiful.

The only thing is there is Cav and Armor Knight reinforcements, and Doga can easily chuck Hand Axes on the latter. Former sometimes have Swords, so there's Darros's advantage.

C17x is a chokepoint heavy map and guess who's better at these? It's undeniable that Doga wins offense but winning durability to the degree that Darros is quite a huge asset to the team because as you know, Darros bring some decent punishment to the enemies while able to take some serious abuse (except mages of course) himself and weakened enemies food for other units, like Draug for example, who doesn't like killing an enemy without fear of counter-attack? This also greatly helps other units such as Catria, Roger, Caesar and even the high tier units like Barst, Cord, Abel, Cain and Ogma who are seeing promotion in the coming chapters and love how Darros lures and weakens the enemies to point where they're delicious cake for them.

Well, there's Zagaro / Wolf. But anyway, I'll admit Darros can chokehole, but really this chapter is so pitiful that chokeholing isn't necessary at all. Paladins only come once every 3 turns (recalling off the top of my head), and the only scary thing is the Mamkute. Then again we have to deal with Darros and Mages / Sages, which we reviewed isn't a good combination any day of the week.

Wait, a forged Poleaxe? I didn't know we were debating the wifi shop tier list atm. Oh and forged Poleaxe isn't going to stop Doga from getting hit twice in the enemy phase before he nukes, this example would greatly help Bord whose shit speed means he'll be doubled and could actually prevent that shit if he 1 hit KOs on the counter-attack.

There's a grand total of 5 Poleaxes, 4 beforehand (the fifth is available in 20X). Doga getting one is pretty easy for him, and it's only going to be used Player Phase. Enemy Phase he should stay the hell away from that item. Hell I'd almost throw him the weaker Hand Axe or Steel Axe just to ensure that he isn't dying that quickly. Obviously he cannot survive two rounds of combat, which I conceded to. And to speak on Bord's AS: Hunter -> Hero can have 16 AS. Yeah I know this dodges the point, but just getting toward it.

Against Manaketes, I think they're both seeing the same durability, barring the magic ones of course but Darros' counter-attack against them at least isn't bad due to access to Dragon Pike and guess who has the superior ranged weapon against them?

Also slightly conceded on this. Just mentioned that Doga is being nuked in two shots, while Darros can survive one more Fire Mamkute. He can't survive (IIRC) a combination of a Mage Mamkute and Fire Mamkute.

C23's another bad chapter for Darros, not denying that one but Darros has clearly been much more useful in the chapters where he's great due to how broken WTFDEF is.

Counting though, Doga has a lead on quite a few chapters in comparison to Darros. Somewhat.

Actually, I wasn't gonna bring up endgame but this helps me more than it helps you as Darros doesn't need a speedwing or any stat booster to be able to take on Mediuth since a General needs HP + (DEF x 2) = 101 to be able to fight him. Doga being mostly a direct attacker, he's less efficient for this fight as you can't place a Recover staff user behind him without running the risk of Medeus kicking that person's ass while Darros can just throw Gradivus at Mediuth for some damage, survive and get healed with Recover without the risk previously mentioned.

Well then again, them dying isn't a major problem in the first place. Darros surviving helps him I guess (also had to slightly fold on Doga's because he can't get 27 AS without a lot of help), but there was that one strategy where (recalling strictly off the top of my head) Doga could nearly make a Critkill if we max-forge a Killer Axe with max Mt + Crit. Unsure on this though.

EDIT: Nevermind. Darros has Endgame over him. 60 HP / 27 Def is hard to puncture. He can at least do 39 damage if he scores the crit, has 20 Str, and 20 Mt from the Killer Axe.

Summary:

-While not invincible, he's still much more durable than Doga is, can see more enemy phase action and can only continue to increase in durability until immortality to non-manakete and other few exceptions physical attacks. While it may not look like much, it certainly is more help to the team to cripple several units than to have great offense at the cost of seeing durability close to several other units.

Since this obviously speaks on MidGame, the difference was as I suggested: one can ORKO and the other can survive assualts. Either way, Darros's true durability over Doga doesn't quite kick in until C20 when he's being 2RKOed by any Brave assualt (he can survive the others though).

-Which the winner is clear. Immortality to most attacks = fuck yes. Seriously, an immortal unit would be all that you need in the lategame. You could literally not field any1 else in some of the chapters and have Darros + Warp nuke everything faster than you normally could in the traditional style of play. Draug would just be able to kill the and that's not getting him much improvement O_o

Only in some sitautions. He can't really face Camus because Gradivus does quite a bit to him and I don't think you can ORKO Lorenz. C20X definitely can take on. C21 fine too. Michalis here has... wait, he can't even break 30 Atk!?! Why have you failed me. C23 I think is pretty freaking obvious. C24 the Mage Mamkute 2RKOes him and tbh he can't survive a massive assault on his own. Then 24X is a joke, followed by Endgame where he needs help.

Yeah, it's me being slightly sarcastic, but point is Darros can't quite "solo" the lategame on his own. He'll need some help in order to do so. But lategame is dealing with a bunch of killfaces anyway, so durability only matters slightly in some situations. Granted it helps, but I sure wish it came sooner (like back in C4).

Edited June 15, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dr. Tarrasque]

C16. Well alright. Most of the time I'd just assume one would buy Master Seals but since they're only available 3 days of the month and such. Still, it's WiFi argument so...

I'm not debating on the wi-fi list thing. Not yet anyway >_>

I was shocked too. Wait until you find Hero has 24 AS. Overkill much?

Hero would drop his Axe WEXP some but still damn...

Can't recall, but I think you also gain +20 Def sitting on there. Not sure though. He can at least sit on the Water and chuck a Hand Axe during the Enemy Phase.

You mean avoid and yeah that's true.

Also, Doga can sit on a Fort. Simply equip a Hand Axe and watch 9 Def actually do something for him, with healing intact. Ranged combat on Horseman is the main reason, and you aren't nuking yourself using the Hand Axe (you shouldn't ORKO them, and they can't 2RKO you back).

This is true if we're talking the forts all the way west or the that lone fort near the 3 cavaliers. On the ones near boss, oh ho ho, definitely not for a while with all those enemies there.

Well, there's Zagaro / Wolf. But anyway, I'll admit Darros can chokehole, but really this chapter is so pitiful that chokeholing isn't necessary at all. Paladins only come once every 3 turns (recalling off the top of my head), and the only scary thing is the Mamkute. Then again we have to deal with Darros and Mages / Sages, which we reviewed isn't a good combination any day of the week.

As previously stated (some time ago), nothing is necessary other than Marth surviving all of the game and Medeus getting his ass kicked. Point is that Darros is better at chokepoints but yeah the chapter is pitiful, gaidens are like that in this game.

There's a grand total of 5 Poleaxes, 4 beforehand (the fifth is available in 20X). Doga getting one is pretty easy for him, and it's only going to be used Player Phase. Enemy Phase he should stay the hell away from that item. Hell I'd almost throw him the weaker Hand Axe or Steel Axe just to ensure that he isn't dying that quickly. Obviously he cannot survive two rounds of combat, which I conceded to. And to speak on Bord's AS: Hunter -> Hero can have 16 AS. Yeah I know this dodges the point, but just getting toward it.

Damn it, I meant to say we're not assuming forging, that's one the rules Chainey listed but hasn't written up again.

Also slightly conceded on this. Just mentioned that Doga is being nuked in two shots, while Darros can survive one more Fire Mamkute. He can't survive (IIRC) a combination of a Mage Mamkute and Fire Mamkute.

Counting though, Doga has a lead on quite a few chapters in comparison to Darros. Somewhat.

While Darros lead on the chapters where he wins so it pretty much comes down to quality over quantity. Gotoh and Nagi are quality in one chapter while all the shit below them is quantity.

Well then again, them dying isn't a major problem in the first place. Darros surviving helps him I guess (also had to slightly fold on Doga's because he can't get 27 AS without a lot of help), but there was that one strategy where (recalling strictly off the top of my head) Doga could nearly make a Critkill if we max-forge a Killer Axe with max Mt + Crit. Unsure on this though.

Lots of people can do this actually, it's one of my suggested methods of killing Medeus. You spend what's left of your money to forge crit on a weapon where it would help you one shot the bastard and reset the game till it works XD. Of course this is pretty much last resort that hardly sees the light of day unless we're talking an extremely inexperienced player that screwed up a lot.

Since this obviously speaks on MidGame, the difference was as I suggested: one can ORKO and the other can survive assualts. Either way, Darros's true durability over Doga doesn't quite kick in until C20 when he's being 2RKOed by any Brave assualt (he can survive the others though).

Woah wait, his durability doesn't kick in till C20? Again, promoted Darros has 24 DEF and something around 42+ HP while at this point, the highest attack we're looking at is 27. Armors aren't doubling him so it's pretty safe to say they take twice as long to kill him, while those that do double him are doing 3 damage at best (fighters are pretty gone after all) per hit so this is 6 damage per round AT BEST. 42/6 = 7RKO. Darros is surviving 6 assaults (assuming best ATK, remember that) while Draug barely survives 2 oh and this is IF he's promoted at that point, otherwise it's still a 2RKO so clearly, who's doing the most on the enemy phase?

Only in some sitautions. He can't really face Camus because Gradivus does quite a bit to him and I don't think you can ORKO Lorenz. C20X definitely can take on. C21 fine too. Michalis here has... wait, he can't even break 30 Atk!?! Why have you failed me. C23 I think is pretty freaking obvious. C24 the Mage Mamkute 2RKOes him and tbh he can't survive a massive assault on his own. Then 24X is a joke, followed by Endgame where he needs help.

Camus is just 1 enemy. Lorenz, yeah Draug wins there lol. Endgame, doesn't Draug have it worse?

Yeah, it's me being slightly sarcastic, but point is Darros can't quite "solo" the lategame on his own. He'll need some help in order to do so. But lategame is dealing with a bunch of killfaces anyway, so durability only matters slightly in some situations. Granted it helps, but I sure wish it came sooner (like back in C4).

I was mostly referring to C20, 21 and 22 when I said lategame. The last 3 chapters are a big issue for every1, even Wolf and Sedgar. And yes better durability would've been nice earlier but that's why he's tiers below Wolf and Sedgar.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Sirius

[Colonel M]

I'm not debating on the wi-fi list thing. Not yet anyway >_>

Same. But I guess the agreement of everyone promoting by C16 still stands against me in a way, doesn't it?

Hero would drop his Axe WEXP some but still damn...

I don't think so. He's probably hit A back as a Fighter, so unless you can lose WRank from Berserker -> Hero after capping the rank, then... yeah. Even if you drop to a B, that's Silver Axes right there.

You mean avoid and yeah that's true.

*Facepalm*. K.

This is true if we're talking the forts all the way west or the that lone fort near the 3 cavaliers. On the ones near boss, oh ho ho, definitely not for a while with all those enemies there.

IIRC most of them are gone by Turn two, so at that point Doga can sneak in and go Snake on their asses.

As previously stated (some time ago), nothing is necessary other than Marth surviving all of the game and Medeus getting his ass kicked. Point is that Darros is better at chokepoints but yeah the chapter is pitiful, gaidens are like that in this game.

Not slapping Darros's face because it's true he can chokepoint. But where it's more useful is C18, for example.

Damn it, I meant to say we're not assuming forging, that's one the rules Chainey listed but hasn't written up again.

Actually the forging rule was one could use it as long as the other unit can get it (in other words it's neutral). I could give Darros a forge, but I don't think his is going to save his ass a whole lot more than Doga's. Maybe it does though, so it could be moot.

While Darros lead on the chapters where he wins so it pretty much comes down to quality over quantity. Gotoh and Nagi are quality in one chapter while all the shit below them is quantity.

Eh, Doga still has quality though. One cannot deny that either.

Lots of people can do this actually, it's one of my suggested methods of killing Medeus. You spend what's left of your money to forge crit on a weapon where it would help you one shot the bastard and reset the game till it works XD. Of course this is pretty much last resort that hardly sees the light of day unless we're talking an extremely inexperienced player that screwed up a lot.

...*Cries*.

But only on my first playthrough, and it was just to unlock the cool soundtrack.

Woah wait, his durability doesn't kick in till C20? Again, promoted Darros has 24 DEF and something around 42+ HP while at this point, the highest attack we're looking at is 27. Armors aren't doubling him so it's pretty safe to say they take twice as long to kill him, while those that do double him are doing 3 damage at best (fighters are pretty gone after all) per hit so this is 6 damage per round AT BEST. 42/6 = 7RKO. Darros is surviving 6 assaults (assuming best ATK, remember that) while Draug barely survives 2 oh and this is IF he's promoted at that point, otherwise it's still a 2RKO so clearly, who's doing the most on the enemy phase?

No, I wasn't slapping Darros here either. What I meant was Darros's Def, in comparison to Doga, isn't clearly magnified until C20. By then, I will gladly fold to Darros having the Def to do a lot. Yes, Darros had it beforehand, but Doga wasn't dying in one shot, even two shots sometimes.

Camus is just 1 enemy. Lorenz, yeah Draug wins there lol. Endgame, doesn't Draug have it worse?

Technically Endgame Darros would have the win, but it's fucking chaotic from what I recall. Worm Bishops, the Ballisticians, Levin Heroes. It's like a nightmare come true!!!

I was mostly referring to C20, 21 and 22 when I said lategame. The last 3 chapters are a big issue for every1, even Wolf and Sedgar. And yes better durability would've been nice earlier but that's why he's tiers below Wolf and Sedgar.

Point taken. Like I said, I was being slightly sarcastic.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Same. But I guess the agreement of everyone promoting by C16 still stands against me in a way, doesn't it?

Outside of the wifi tier list, yes.

I don't think so. He's probably hit A back as a Fighter, so unless you can lose WRank from Berserker -> Hero after capping the rank, then... yeah. Even if you drop to a B, that's Silver Axes right there.

Ah yes this is true bad memory of this on my part =\

*Facepalm*. K.

SERIOUS COMPETITION FOR PIRATE CLASS IN C9! DARROS IS 5 TIERS ABOVE JAGEN IN C2 EVEN THOUGH JAGEN IS THE 2ND BEST UNIT IN THE CHAPTER! XD

IIRC most of them are gone by Turn two, so at that point Doga can sneak in and go Snake on their asses.

Actually the Dracos are looking to torture you so you're probably dealing with them on that turn :P

Not slapping Darros's face because it's true he can chokepoint. But where it's more useful is C18, for example.

Yes and I did acknowledge that when I said that the gaiden chapters are easy (>' ')>

Actually the forging rule was one could use it as long as the other unit can get it (in other words it's neutral). I could give Darros a forge, but I don't think his is going to save his ass a whole lot more than Doga's. Maybe it does though, so it could be moot.

Don't recall that bit. Though in this situation, it would depend as it would be like giving Draug steroids on the player phase but basically turning him into FE10 Eddie with Wrath that criticals 100% of the time on the enemy phase (put simply, bad).

Eh, Doga still has quality though. One cannot deny that either.

Yeah, point is that Darros is higher quality. He competes with Wolf and Sedgar in terms of brokenness post promotion after all.

...*Cries*.

But only on my first playthrough, and it was just to unlock the cool soundtrack.

YOU'RE A DISGRACE MAGGOT! Jk. I might've exaggerated a bit. After all people did struggle a lot before Akairyu beat H5 and I found out how to 1-turn the chapter. Initially the whole thing was though of as impossible but each time I look at this thread I'm finding it easier.

No, I wasn't slapping Darros here either. What I meant was Darros's Def, in comparison to Doga, isn't clearly magnified until C20. By then, I will gladly fold to Darros having the Def to do a lot. Yes, Darros had it beforehand, but Doga wasn't dying in one shot, even two shots sometimes.

Ah ok. If Doga was dying in 1 shot, he'd be Ricardo's new buddy >_>.

Technically Endgame Darros would have the win, but it's fucking chaotic from what I recall. Worm Bishops, the Ballisticians, Levin Heroes. It's like a nightmare come true!!!

Yes it is. Pretty much why it's best to 1 turn it though if you like challenge, you'll definitely try it out and see ways of how to go about it (guilty).

So yeah, I guess that's pretty much it. You should probably look at Roger vs Draug though.

[Colonel M]

Mmm, it'd be pretty easy to take on Roger tbh.

Reclassed Roger has the disadvantage of weapon ranks, but has the advantage of a slightly better start. But... assuming both were pit around the same time at promotion (which is unlikely but fine):

Roger (Fighter -> Hero): 39 HP | 18 Str | 15 Skl | 20 Spd | 14 Luck | 9 Def | 3 Res

AGod (Fighter -> Berserker): Youknowthisbynow.

I guess the main difference at this point is Roger has access to Devil weapons, but that's about it. Actually I like this set-up a bit better for him than Hunter -> Warrior due to D Rank Swords = Devil Sword. Anyway, I think either way Doga would be winning here because it's rough to determine both are promoting around the same time. But, then again, Roger is gaining almost double the CEXP until he catches up, so I wouldn't say it's a terrible stretch.

Come lategame and it's difficult to match. Both suffer 2RKOes, but I guess Roger's brute Str might be better in some situations, though it has to be stretched a lot. I mean, it takes a lot to ORKO DracoKnights in the first place without a Bow (we're talking about it takes Roger, with a Silver Axe, about 23 Str. He can reach this by 20/10, a bit sooner than Doga can). But it's a stretch.

I also cannot see Roger beating Darros any day of the week, so it's likely in Doga's favor either way.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

The main point is that here, Doga is almost Darros's equal.

Oh look. They're almost right next to each other on the tier list. I think this is already established.

Actually the forging rule was one could use it as long as the other unit can get it (in other words it's neutral).

I'm going to change back to no forges if I ever get un-lazy and re-write the rules, because I would rather not have focus on how powerful forges are, but rather the characters themselves.

[Mekkah]

Forges are quite viable advantages for characters who double, and characters who can use effective weapons (Rapier and bows moreso than others). They shouldn't be part of a standard arsenal (like Barst with forges vs Cord with forges) but they can be significant side arguments in comparisons.

[Rodykitty]

Doubling & effective weapons are already an advantage on their own though. If a character can do either of these things, then it's safe to assume that forging would just help these further.

Granted, if most people request it I'll try and make some reasonable guidelines.

[Colonel M]

Besides the point, my main argument didn't make up to using forged weapons for Doga. The only reason I mentioned the Poleaxe is because Darros, IIRC, doesn't get that much Str anyway to OHKO with a forged Ridersbane. Disregard it if you'd like (really it doesn't change a whole lot), but I think forges could be a conditional thing or something. Nothing ridiculous, but maybe something like +3 Mt max seems acceptable for a forge. Whoever can use the cheaper route would obviously have the advantage over the other, that is if they can match the power of the other.

In other words, say we have Gordon and he can somehow double (lol) versus someone like Owend who cannot double. If Gordon, even with a forged weapon that has +3 Mt, cannot match, comes close to matching, OR matches the damage output of Owend, then Owend would obviously be the winner.

Disregard forges if you'd like though. I know Arena was to never be assumed, and same with Wi-Fi on here. I only mentioned the Master Seals as a wishing thought (as in one of the few things that makes this game semi-retarded).

I can re-try Roger vs. Darros (Fighter -> Hero route), but I'm juggling which is more superior: that or Hunter -> Warrior.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

The main reason I want to disregard forging is to have a clear defined line on the matter and to have consistency. Consistency is important to me because since it can apply to all playthroughs and the unanimous player can decide for himself whether he wants to give his character the forge.

Also, if anyone hasn't figured it out yet, I'm neutral on the whole Roger/Draug/Darros thing.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Chainey

[Colonel M]

The main reason I want to disregard forging is to have a clear defined line on the matter and to have consistency. Consistency is important to me because since it can apply to all playthroughs and the unanimous player can decide for himself whether he wants to give his character the forge.

If you feel it's easier, then disregard it. I don't think it's something to seriously attempt to argue, but others may disagree.

[Rodykitty]

Also, if anybody hasn't figured out by now, I'm neutral on the whole Draug/Roger/Darros debate. I'm just waiting on somebody to concede.

[Colonel M]

Also, if anybody hasn't figured out by now, I'm neutral on the whole Draug/Roger/Darros debate. I'm just waiting on somebody to concede.

I believe Sirius agreed with Doga > Darros, but he wanted me to explore Doga > Roger. However, in order to do that, I'd have to do Roger > Darros.

Though it's kind of simple, I guess. If we scratch out earlygame a bit where both are doing roughly the same (durability and offense), then just jump to promotion, apply Doga's situation to Roger, except a little more emphasis on Devil weapons (which makes Swords easier to build on). I dunno how much of a negative you can see him needing babied levels when everyone else above and below him for the most part needs it too, but I guess Fighter Roger having 12 AS isn't bad by any stretch. 20% growth is a bit of fail though, but it isn't the point really. By Lv 13 he can have 14 AS (it rounds up, and add +10% to the initial growths due to lolArmor Knight lock which is stupid IMO), so it won't be too long before he hits that magic number.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

I'll put Daros below Guard for now then.

[Colonel M]

Actually it's "A God", which is Doga backwards. I'm guessing Chainey doesn't like a whole lot of sarcasm though.

I dunno if Sirius really wants to re-defend Darros since I know he's got a lot on his plate. If it's better to wait or have someone else do it (though tbh I think you're more of the expert on Darros), then by all means I can wait to settle Roger vs. Darros.