H5 Tier list topic

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I believe Sirius agreed with Doga > Darros, but he wanted me to explore Doga > Roger. However, in order to do that, I'd have to do Roger > Darros.

I didn't agree to it. You conceded most of your points and in the end, the arguments that you had left were pretty much the reason why Draug was there so it didn't change a thing.

I did suggest exploring Doga > Roger though.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Sirius

[Rodykitty]

I didn't agree to it.

Your wish is my command.

[Colonel M]

Alright, I thought you did then. Sorry.

I'll explore Doga > Roger first then, since that seems to be the main contraversy of the week. Doga's got the better start though, and he doesn't require a ton of babying. Berserker Doga has about the same AS as Fighter -> Hero Roger, but Doga here can improve on his Spd stat rather quickly while Roger is a little bit... I wouldn't say screwed, but it can be tedious if not attended to. Granted, Roger here has more Str so him throwing a Hand Axe might score a ORKO more often that Doga. Roger has 18 Str as a 20/1 Hero then 8 Mt with the Hand Axe, so 26 Atk. Against a 33 HP / 9-10 Def Cavalier with a Silver Lance, he can ORKO them while Doga couldn't (he has 16-17 Str until Level 20/4).

I dunno, because Doga isn't a major detriment earlygame except C2 and 3 where I would normally concede to. I guess the small lack of Str might give him moments where he can't double with a Steel Axe, but I think that's the worst of it. Roger has a pretty good start, though his problem would've been WEXP. Granted, same scenario with Doga.

I think Mid-Game, Roger might ORKO some things with a slightly weaker weapon at times when Doga can't. Hand Axe is probably a good example, but otherwise Doga isn't lacking it with a Silver Axe. So, at times, there could be instances where Roger doesn't take a counterattack, but it's assuming he's promoting roughly the same time as Doga here, which is difficult to say. Still, C18 Cavaliers take almost 20 Str in order to ORKO with a Hand Axe, assuming WTA. For Paladins, it takes almost 22 Str in order to ORKO with a Hand Axe and WTA. Roger might be able to do the former, but the latter is a difficult-to-say thing: Roger doesn't get 22 Str until 20/8.

And Endgame both are dying in two rounds. Again, might be a few instances where Roger might be able to ORKO some things that Doga can't but it's rare. The problem is Roger's in his fastest class, while Doga isn't. Hero Doga can double Snipers and Heroes when Roger cannot as a Hero, so I'd say that's playing in Doga's favor at that point.

Yeah I'm seeing Doga > Roger tbh, if only because him being able to double Snipers and Heroes by Endgame is pretty powerful.

EDIT: As far as Doga vs. Darros, you also conceded on Chapter Leads (very important), somewhat ignored the fact that being 3RKOed when almost everyone else is being 2RKOed isn't significant and him being quality, and there's still Master Seal promotion arguments flying around. I said there's the possibility of him promoting early. This doesn't mean I entirely conceded to it. If Doga gets above Roger, then you can bet that I will be re-approaching Darros vs. Doga again.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Colonel M

[Don Draper]

Now for something interesting: Roger vs. Athena. Chapter 9...

Athena (13/0): 27 HP, 21 Atk (Steel Lance), 11 AS, 8 Def

Roger (6/0): 25 HP, 14 Atk (Iron Axe), 12 AS, 5 Def

Hmm. Athena has a sizeable attack/defense lead. She's 3RKOing Pirates, while Roger is 4/5RKOing them. Athena 2RKOs Hunters, while Roger 3RKOs. And Mages are ORKO'd by both. However, Athena is 2RKO'd by even the weakest pirates along with Roger, and they're both ORKO'd by the Devil Axe guy. Athena is ORKO'd by the Hunter too, while Roger is 3RKO'd or 2RKO'd, depending on their attack. Mages 2RKO Athena, along with Roger. So really, they're equal defensively.

Chapter 11 now....

Athena (15/0): 28 HP, 21 Atk (Steel Lance), 12 AS, 9 Def

Roger (9/0): 27 HP, 19 Atk (Steel Axe), 13 AS, 5 Def

Roger levels more quickly, so he's catching up. Athena has had about 5 chapters and she needs to raise her lance rank by 3 to use Silver Lance. Cord needs 2-3 chapters for 1 rank, so its looking like she's still at C. Anyways, Roger is quickly approaching Athena's attack, only losing by two. Defensively, Roger is 2RKO'd by Cavaliers, while Athena suffers the same. Mercs 3RKO her, while they 2RKO him. Pegs 3RKO both. Sniper ORKO's Athena, while 2RKO'ing Roger. Horsemen 2RKO her, while 2RKOing Roger as well. Closer then you think...

Chapter 14:

Athena (18/0): 30 HP, 29 Atk (Silver Lance), 13 AS, 9 Def

Roger (13/0): 31 HP, 22 Atk (Steel Axe), 14 AS, 5 Def

Poor Roger is now being owned attack wise. Or his he? He doubles 10 AS Archers, so 2RKO there (Athena 2RKOs as well). Cavs are doubled as well, so 2RKO there as well (Athena 2RKOs as well, but she can also use Ridersbane). Sniper is 3RKO'd, while Athena 2RKOs though. And Armors are hammer'd for a ORKO, while Athena 2RKO's.

Time for Athena to promote at Chapter 16!

Athena (20/1): 35 HP, 32 Atk (Silver Lance), 14 AS, 15 Def

Roger (15/0): 33 HP, 27 Atk (Silver Axe), 14 AS, 5 Def

Yeah, Roger is getting owned. But wait until Roger promotes to Hero!

Athena (20/4): 37 HP, 33 Atk (Silver Lance), 16 AS, 15 Def

Roger (20/1): 39 HP, 32 Atk (Silver Axe), 20 AS, 9 Def

How the tables have turned!Roger will frequently have WTA against those Lances, meaning its really 11 Def vs. 15 Def. And Roger's 4 AS lead means he's destroying Athena offensively.

Continuing on...

Athena (20/6): 38 HP, 33 Atk (Silver Lance), 17 AS, 15 Def

Roger (20/3): 41 HP, 33 Atk (Silver Axe), 21 AS, 9 Def

In Chapter 20, Generals are ORKO'd by Roger with Hammer and 2RKO'd by Athena. Paladins are Polaxe'd by Roger for a ORKO, but Athena only manages a 2RKO thanks to no doubling. Defensively, Generals 3RKO Roger and 4RKO Athena. Paladins have 26-27 Atk with their Brave weapons. WTA means they 2RKO Roger, and 2RKO Athena. So equal defensively actually! Plus, Roger has 55 Avoid against these guys with support/wta, so he's not facing a hit rate above 41 displayed. That's pretty significant.

So in conclusion, they start out pretty close, the Athena gets a lead which closes once Roger promotes. I don't know if this will change their tier positions, I just did this out of interest.

Edited June 15, 2009 by IOS

[Colonel M]

Wow... I never did attempt to try pitting Roger that far because it was pendant on beating out Darros's Def, and although Sirius mentioned Darros being quality, we still have Zagaro, Wolf, and mid-game Horus that can tank as well, if not better than Darros. There's also many other Armor Knights that can compare pretty closely, I guess. Cool find though.

I wish I could say fuck Doga and try helping this argument, but I already pitted myself in this hole so...

Edited June 15, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Wow... I never did attempt to try pitting Roger that far because it was pendant on beating out Darros's Def, and although Sirius mentioned Darros being quality, we still have Zagaro, Wolf, and mid-game Horus that can tank as well, if not better than Darros. There's also many other Armor Knights that can compare pretty closely, I guess. Cool find though.

I wish I could say fuck Doga and try helping this argument, but I already pitted myself in this hole so...

Roger being > Athena doesn't necessarily mean Roger > Darros. I found Athena quite high but just forgot about it. This find just means Athena is going down.

@Bold: We're not assuming they're always in play and btw, Promoted Darros > Horus for the midgame.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Sirius

[Colonel M]

Roger being > Athena doesn't necessarily mean Roger > Darros. I found Athena quite high but just forgot about it. This find just means Athena is going down.

No, it's quite understood. I thought Athena was pretty high in the first place, and before she was around Roger's level beforehand... IIRC before the 70's Time Warp kicked in.

@Bold: We're not assuming they're always in play and btw, Promoted Darros > Horus for the midgame.

Even so, one doesn't require a Master Seal (this being Horus) and until then Horus has the capabilities of a good tank, plus a minor Bow rank which Darros will have to build on. Obviously once Braves show up, Horus is done for.

But still, I'm just showing Darros isn't all that by a definition of "quality". If Doga wasn't "quality" because he was doing around the same thing as everyone else, does that automatically mean Darros's "quality" is that much better?

I'm just going to show some examples, just so it helps:

Barst

Don't believe me? Try good base stats with a steady growth in both HP and Def, which all that matters. He can even promote early like Darros can since he caps Def pretty quickly.

Kashim

A set Bow rank by promotion sounds cool and all, but how about a unit that still sports a 45% Def growth and can also hit the magic number (this being 25 Def) by 20/6? Not bad at all either.

Oguma

Same ordeal with Barst here, except scrap early capping.

Dolph

Can't get doubled by Mages whatsoever and still can cap Def before Lv 20, hit the magic number of 25 by 20/4.

I know this list has inconsistencies: i.e. this isn't their best class or they're already above Darros. Point being is they can do nearly the same thing as Darros does by Midgame and Lategame. It's just a matter of showing that it isn't quite as special as it's made out to be. Of course I annexed Wolf and Zagaro and Horus, because they at least are being tanks when we need them the most.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Colonel M

[Don Draper]

Athena probably shouldn't go down too far, as she's not that much worse then Hardain...

Hardain (9/0): 26 HP, 20/24 Atk (Steel/Silver Lance), 10 AS, 9 Def

Athena (11/0: 26 HP, 16 Atk (Iron Lance), 10 AS, 8 Def

So they start out pretty equal I guess, except Hardain has a lol 6 Atk lead.

Hardain (16/0): 29 HP, 27 Atk (Silver Lance), 14 AS, 10 Def

Athena (17/0): 29 HP, 26 Atk (Silver Lance), 12 AS, 9 Def

Alright then, closer then I thought. Moving on...

Hardain (20/1): 35 HP, 30 Atk (Silver Lance), 17 AS, 12 Def

Athena (20/1): 35 HP, 32 Atk (Silver Lance), 14 AS, 15 Def

3 AS vs. 2 Atk/3 Def. Chapter 16, Hardain can double Cavs while Athena can't. Other then that, they can't double anything. Defensively, Athena's obviously worse against Horsemen/Snipers and Hardain's obviously worse against Ridersbanes, and then everything else has 26-29 Attack. 26 Attack 4RKO's Athena, but everything else 3RKO's the both of them. Really similar tbqh. And that's not saying Hardain should move down too because...

Abel (20/1): 36 HP, 31 Atk (Silver Lance), 18 AS, 12 Def

Abel doesn't double anything the others couldn't. I'm thinking Roger up instead. I personally was questioning the tier gap between Cord/Abel and Cain before, but looking at 20/1 Fighter-->Hero Cord...

Cord (20/1): 36 HP, 31 Atk (Silver Axe), 21 AS, 11 Def

Cord ORKO's the Horseman (OHKO's if he has a Poleaxe), is borderline ORKOing the Wyverns (But can with Dragon Axe), ORKO's the Heros, ORKO's the Cavs and Paladin, ORKO's the General with a Hammer and does the same to the boss. All while having 56 Avoid, meaning he's seeing 37% true hit max against lance users. So yeah...tier gap warranted.

EDIT: Sniper Abel does have 29 Atk/20 AS with Silver Bow, which ORKO's Horsemen, Wyverns, and Cavs. Cord's still better against the Heroes, General, Paladin and boss.

Midgamish I think Abel has a lead though....

Abel (15/0): 29 HP, 26 Atk (Silver Lance), 14 AS, 10 Def

Cord (15/0): 30 HP, 28 Atk (Silver Axe), 14 AS, 6 Def

Well, I guess they're even. If we're talking Chapter 12, defensively, Cavs 2RKO both, Abel is 3RKO'd by the Mercs, and Abel is 2RKOd, Pegs 3RKO both, Snipers 2RKO both, Horsemen 3RKO Abel and 2RKO Cord. It really balances out

Edited June 15, 2009 by IOS

[Colonel M]

Hate to break your heart but there's no Dragon Axe.

EDIT: Well, Wyrmslayer might do so, but I don't think it's effective against DracoKnights in this game like it was in other games.

Speaking of Athena, are you pitting her in DracoKnight or Paladin?

Edited June 15, 2009 by Colonel M

[Don Draper]

Right, my bad.

Athena as a Dracoknight.

[Colonel M]

Almost want to say that Paladin is marginally better, if only because she retains the C Rank in Swords. I mean, DracoKnight gets E Rank in Axes (blech). Though it's just preference, I guess.

[Rodykitty]

If a character can't afford to get axes, then they'll be fine sticking with Lances since you'll have roughly the same damage output, though slightly less durability.

[Colonel M]

If a character can't afford to get axes, then they'll be fine sticking with Lances since you'll have roughly the same damage output, though slightly less durability.

It's just building another rank when one starts at a C seems difficult to choose it, in a way. Not saying Athena doesn't have time to build an Axe rank (she should), but it's just the matter of it. If she promotes at a fair amount of time, I wouldn't be surprised if she had access to at least Poleaxes by C20, or even before that. The thing is Paladin at least has her Sword rank welcoming her back, and she only needs to swing it a few times for Silver Swords.

Then again, Swords aren't always the best choice when it comes to this game, which is why DracoKnight usually gets a little more use.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

Poleaxe

She'll already have the ability to use Horseslayers, which I might add are of much superior availability, so she'll want to anyway.

Swords mostly mean Armor Slayer, but she may prefer Dragon Knight for the extra base stats and speed growth.

[Colonel M]

She'll already have the ability to use Horseslayers, which I might add are of much superior availability, so she'll want to anyway.

The point is the extra durability, at that point. I'm just saying it's another boon for her.

Swords mostly mean Armor Slayer, but she may prefer Dragon Knight for the extra base stats and speed growth.

The only extra base stats are Str (like she's really lacking there averaging with 16) and IIRC Def (which would still require the Axes anyhow). Her Spd picks up, I guess, but really it doesn't make a whole lot of a difference here:

Level 5 as a pure Paladin: 15

Level 5 as a pure DracoKnight: 16

Level 10 as a pure Paladin: 17

Level 10 as a pure DracoKnight: 19

I guess speaking purely outside of averages, it might matter then. But speaking on averages, she won't double anything with the boost of growth.

But, on a different note (one reason TO use the DracoKnight) is if she gets D minimum (so just Steel Axes), she can bend Braves down a small portion. She has 41 HP / 16 Def to speak of, so she can bend it to a 3RKO. Paladin with 43 HP / 14 Def takes the full blow, and that IS a 2RKO. BUT, keep in mind that she only needs two extra HP or one extra Def to make that a 3RKO. But in response to it, DracoKnight could possibly have the 20 AS by then, likely doubling the Paladins in C20.

I guess I can see how DracoKnight might be the better route, but as far as Spd goes Paladin isn't much worse (and DracoKnight not much better). You might get a little bit better durability sticking into Paladin for a short time then switching to DracoKnight, but you're affecting the Spd a little. Ah well, I dunno who takes me seriously and who doesn't anymore.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Colonel M

[Colonel M]

Sorry to double post but a couple of things:

- Minerva > Matthis. I believe we agreed on it before the time purge, but don't quote me on it. I'd say it's likely because Matthis's route to be good is rather unstellar, then he has trouble in other classes (Archer's suck, Myrmidion's lack of Sword rank).

- Julian should likely be under Minerva as well, or even above if possible. Under is more likely. First off, no hogging a Master Seal, then there's Thief utility which is a minor boon. No real need of reclass shuffling, which also works in Julian's favor. Curate -> Sniper is pretty underwhelming, but here's what it looks like:

20/1 Machis (Curate -> Sniper) - 38.8 HP | 9.1 Str | 11.7 Skl | 14.3 Spd | 5.4 Luck | 8.2 Def | 8.9 Res

Steel Bow | Longbow (Killer only gives +20 Crit) - 18 Atk

20 Julian - 30.6 HP | 12.5 Str | 14.5 Skl | 20.5 Spd | 20.6 Luck | 9.1 Def | 0.34 Res

Silver Sword - 28 Atk (24 w/WTD)

Take C14 for example, Julian here doubles just about everything (even Pegasi!). Cavs are pretty sturdy (36 HP / 10 Def), and some even sport 11 AS, meaning Matthis can't double these guys. Here, Julian can't ORKO the Cavs, but this obviously means neither can Matthis. Pegasi are likely in Matthis's favor, correct? Yes, and Julian is targetting 33 HP / 7 Def, meaning that he too is ORKOing. Just Matthis here isn't taking counterdamage.

Even zooming to C20 and assuming Matthis here got 9-10 Levels, Julian is leveling pretty fast. He could likely be capped (Level 30) by the time C20 arrives as he doesn't need to wait for a Master Seal and he's leveling (IIRC) faster than Matthis here. Pointing out the obvious, but it's true.

Once he gets the Devil Sword (C17), he should be ORKOing most of the time. Max Level Julian against the tougher Paladin (46 HP / 11 Def) and ~34 Atk (factoring WTD). Julian here can ORKO them. Matthis with a Silver Bow? Nope. He only averages 13 Str by Level 20/11. As for Avoid, Julian with Rena only has about 40 Avoid even with WTD (It's -10% accuracy right?), which increases to 50% with Marth. If he gets both of these, Julian under WTD can dodge Braves pretty well (they sit on about 92-96 Hit, so with Marth he can bend that down to ~46% hit. As for him getting ORKOed? Not even the highest end Paladin (assuming he can even reach 29 Atk with a Brave Lance) can ORKO Julian. Obviously Matthis isn't doing much better.

I think here Julian not needing a Master Seal works in his favor and still doing pretty good during midgame helps. Matthis's only minor win is C21 and 22, and it's only when there's DracoKnights. Otherwise, I believe Julian has the win from there on out due to access of Wyrmslayer (meaning he's effective against Mamkutes). Okay, one exception that is minor: C23. Mages can't OHKO Julian in the first place, but Matthis here can slip out of a 2RKO, which I must admit is pretty impressive.

EDIT: Well, I fucked that one up, didn't I? Guess I can use this for starting though, since the only person above Julian is Paola and Matthis.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

- Julian should likely be under Minerva as well

He already is.

[Colonel M]

He already is.

I meant directly under, as in over Paola and Matthis (assuming Minerva > Matthis, which I guess Kuja or I could prove).

[Rodykitty]

So uh...

Rewrite your post, this time replacing the words "Matthis" with "Paola."

[Colonel M]

Which... I was going to do.

Let's just see C16 for example. Pit Julian at about Level 22 again just for consistency's sake, and we'll give Paola 4 levels:

Paola - 24 HP | 9 Str | 11 Skl | 14 Spd | 5 Luck | 9 Def | 6 Res

Silver Lance - 24 Atk +1 (if WTA)

Javelin - 18 Atk +1 (if WTA)

Julian - 32 HP | 14 Str | 16 Skl | 22 Spd | 22 Luck | 10 Def | 0 Res

Silver Sword - 25 Atk (w/WTD) +3 (if ever neutral)

Quick review: Julian has the slight durability edge (but I say slight because both are just about 2RKOed) and Julian has a slight offensive lead. But, let's just see how it goes.

Cavaliers here 34-36 HP / 8-9 Def with 11 AS. Assuming Paola can get a Ridersbane, she's plopping 25-26 damage on these things: a 2RKO. Julian with a Silver Sword doubles and does 16-17 damage per hit, or 32-34 damage. So, assuming 36 HP / 9 Def, he cannot ORKO them. However, he can ORKO the low end Def ones (I dunno if 35 HP / 9 Def is a combination, or 34 HP / 9 Def). You get the point though: Julian can ORKO some of these while Paola cannot. In return, both are 2RKOed (26 and 28 Atk). Julian has the lead here.

Horseman. Now these are tricky because Paola can't quite approach them very well. But anyway, Ridersbane again: 28-29 damage. Again, can't ORKO. Julian has full Atk now (28) and 37 HP / 7 Def (highest end Horseman) are ORKOed by him. Defensively, I think we know who's winning. Note that Julian is actually 3RKOed by these things.

Heroes. Ah yes, Julian here can double them. Silver Lance single hit 3RKOes, but Julian 2RKOes. Suffice to say that both are 2RKOed (Paola isn't doubled luckily).

Armor Knights / Generals are an easy fold due to lack of Armorslayer.

Julian caps in levels. He gets Armorslayer, and Paola goes either Sniper or DracoKnight. One problem is Paola can't double the Paladins, which are pretty slow, until ~Level 20/15. There are times where they'll tie (really high end Paladins), but otherwise Julian can usually ORKO the low end Paladins, which are quite common. Only thing to note (and not a bad thing may I add) is if Paola uses an Axe, she can take Braves pretty well in this class. Let's just say she's 4RKOed at 20/5, which is pretty damn awesome. Only thing that sucks is Brave Bows are going to hurt.

Sniper Paola wouldn't be a bad choice: she gets 18 Spd now as a Sniper and a slightly better growth, but she's gotta pick up the pace. At least unlike Matthis here, Paola had good Str. Pure Sniper takes about 20/6 to double 16 AS Paladins, 17 AS Paladins by 20/10, and then DracoKnights (~18 AS) by a whopping 20/13. If she got Silver Bows and up to 20/6 by C20, I'd be quite impressed at least. She can ORKO them then, but still she's got quite a ways to go for the DracoKnights and even the high end Paladins.

Seems to me Julian is almost beating Paola all the time, except when she's doing good damage to the DracoKnights, but she can't ORKO with the Silver Bow. It takes Parthia to do that. Julian with his Devil Sword 2RKOes as well, and to counter Parthia Mercurius Julian can ORKO the low end DracoKnights.

Paola's constraints are she joins quite late and needs to get leveling ASAP. Even to promote by C18, she needs ~3 Levels per chapter (I gave 1 free back in C14). There's not a major argument for Master Seals, but it's still relevant. Actually, Julian's lack of needing a Master Seal really plays in his favor against a lot of these units, barring Minerva possibly. As I've said back with Matthis, Thieving is only a minor boon for him, but it's relevant.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

I believe there is only one devil sword, and Julian's not the sole user. There are two others to consider, mainly Navarre and Marth. However, I think we can immediately rule out Marth as we absolutely cannot risk it.

However, I do remember Navarre having great luck. However, If Julian's is better, I can pretty safely say Julian's the best cantidate.

However, he seems rather in need of it late game, and it's not that durable a weapon. I suppose with Lena having a good chance of being used mainly for Hammerne awesomeness and it's 12 uses, keeping it intact shouldn't be a problem. Then of course, we gotta consider Starsphere for the time we have it.

Another thing Julian has over Navarre is no need for a master seal, and generally better starting stats with growths (I believe Julain's got 20% better Str growth and 10or 5% better speed growth, starts with 1 more speed but 1 less strength), and perhaps better luck for Devil Sword. Both have very likely supports.

Navarre however, has a better earlygame thanks to Killer access and gets to those tasty earlygame silvers that much quicker. In exchange though, Julian saves you keys, and you can buy something else for the price of those 500 G keys, like extra forging or iron weapons for early on (no sense using steel at the times that iron would kill, ya?)

He's pretty damn comparable to Navarre. Perhaps...Julian hasn't changed much at all?

Edited June 18, 2009 by Kuja

[Colonel M]

There's a grand total of two Devil Swords (IIRC), just like the Devil Axe.

His damage output is a bit reliant on it, but he's got an excellent Luck stat to make use of it. I guess with Julian saving you money on a lot of things (keys, a Master Seal), he could get a little accomodation (small forge, something like a Str ring or something like that).

Julian's not that bad IMO. He's pretty underrated, but it's probably because Thief utility doesn't hold a ton of weight in this game (can't steal items other than in chests) and that he doesn't have an option to reclass.

[grandjackal]

There's a grand total of two Devil Swords (IIRC), just like the Devil Axe.

His damage output is a bit reliant on it, but he's got an excellent Luck stat to make use of it. I guess with Julian saving you money on a lot of things (keys, a Master Seal), he could get a little accomodation (small forge, something like a Str ring or something like that).

Julian's not that bad IMO. He's pretty underrated, but it's probably because Thief utility doesn't hold a ton of weight in this game (can't steal items other than in chests) and that he doesn't have an option to reclass.

A thought occured to me that with him around, you can just SELL the keys you find, as with him around you don't need a single one.

Lemme add it up...

8,300 gold in keys...give or take a couple 500 for possible door key use in endgame, as we aren't bringing Rickard for the other doors in case we get trapped. This is without bridge keys in mind, and I DO recall you getting 1, so add 900 to that total. 1000 of that is negligeable, as you get them late. One of them on the final chapter.

Uhhh...Yeah....I did NOT think of actually selling those keys, but 7,300 is uhhh, a shitload. It's practically another small bullion.

Let's consider other Julian aspects.

+Growths like a steroid unit. Not a single growth of his sucks.

+Speed advantage. Has Ogma's base, has 10% better growth and 2 levels lower. Awesome sauce.

+50% Strength growth. Nuff said.

+Indirectly rewards you with the money you get when you sell your keys, which totals to 8,300 overall.

+Can actually pull off decent avoid later on.

+Most of his starting stats aren't really that bad.

+Has the best luck and STR end advantage to put Devil Swords to the best use, and has effectively no competition for them.

+Support from a very likely unit who also has Hammerne staff exclusivity, so he will virtually never run out of his devil swords.

+Has VERY little competition for Mercurius (only others being Swordmaster Navarre (who isn't as strong) and Swordmaster Roshea (who isn't as fast))

+Does not requite a Master Seal.

- That being said, he starts with 4 Str and E rank swords. This means he doesn't have to worry about AS loss, but he's still starting with shitty damage.

-17 base HP is also not a good start, despite his great durability growths.

- Going against the WT throughout most of the game does not help his case.

- He still could lose his unique use through said keys.

- Swords do not give access to the more useful slayer weapon, a horseslaying one.

The pluses are numerous, but I feel his minuses are pretty major. Measure it up as you will. Either way it would appear he is one of your better lategame units. Which...goes against everything we thought about him. Very few actually have the speed to manage consistant doubling, especially lategame where you need a grand total of 22 speed. The fact he can just whip out a devil sword and have a great chance to gangland execute a dracoknight is fucking impressive.

Edited June 18, 2009 by Kuja

[Dat Nick]

+Can actually pull off decent avoid later on.

With the WTD? I call bullshit.

[Rodykitty]

Also, he says:

+Most of his starting stats aren't really that bad.

Then goes on to say:

- That being said, he starts with 4 Str and E rank swords. This means he doesn't have to worry about AS loss, but he's still starting with shitty damage.

-17 base HP is also not a good start, despite his great durability growths.

This means "most" of his starting stats aren't good. In fact, only one starting stat is good and that is speed.

+Has VERY little competition for Mercurius (only others being Swordmaster Navarre (who isn't as strong) and Swordmaster Roshea (who isn't as fast))

One, Swordmaster Roshea is absolute garbage. Why are you still thinking he's relevant at this point?

Also, every Sword user will want to use Mercurius. Let's not assume we're only using Lance and Axe users here.

I guess with Julian saving you money on a lot of things (keys, a Master Seal), he could get a little accomodation (small forge, something like a Str ring or something like that).

No, I'm not going to tier him on "accomodation". He's not even guaranteed the Devil Sword, but I still consider his high Luck an advantage for him due to the Devil Sword.

Despite that, I'm convinced to bring Julian above Paola.