H5 Tier list topic

[Colonel M]

No, I'm not going to tier him on "accomodation". He's not even guaranteed the Devil Sword, but I still consider his high Luck an advantage for him due to the Devil Sword.

No no Chainey, that isn't quite what I meant. From a tier aspect, I know that he shouldn't get an accomodation. The main point is he's saving you money and, in fact, making a positive contribution when it comes to money (like every other thief but still). As for Mercurius, there' also Marth who's desperate for some help so he's likely to get it.

Guess before I explore Julian > Matthis I'll have to explore Minerva > Matthis.

Edited June 18, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

I recognize his monetary advantage.

[Colonel M]

Just clearing that up Chainey.

Let's just sum it up. Minerva can double on her starting chapter as a Sniper, but she's only pulling 2RKOes (or 3RKOes on some instances). Though Matthis is just busy healing. So, let's just skip out to C14. Give Matthis his early promo like he wants and Minerva 2 Levels.

Minerva - 18 Atk, 15 AS, lolHit, 29 HP, 10 Def

Matthis - 18 Atk, 14 AS, lolHit, 39 HP, 8 Def

So, let's just outline the AS difference since that where it matters:

- Minerva can double all the Archers. Matthis can double the 10 AS ones.

- Minerva can double all the Cavaliers. Matthis can, once again, double the 10 AS ones.

- Matthis COULD get doubled by a Thief, but that's about it.

So otherwise Minerva can have a win in damage output most of the time. Matthis can only tie it. Also, if Minerva gets access to a Silver Bow (which is highly likely), she'll have an Atk lead. Keep in mind that this is C14 and I only gave Minerva two levels: I could've easily stretched 11, 12, 12X, and 13 to equal 3-4levels. But, this is just showing if Minerva got only a little bit of CEXP per chapter.

To continue on, Minerva and Matthis will be about equal in damage output once he too gets Silver Bows. That is, until Minerva switches back to DracoKnight. She's using this class for a buffer in her Spd department. Even assuming Minerva got to Level 15 at worst (2 levels sometimes per chapter, 1 otherwise). One problem is Minerva will double the unpromoted stuff, but promoted stuff... just isn't happening for her. But in response to that, she still has good damage output with Axes so there's 1-2 range. So, again, let's assume the worst alright?

30 HP / 16 Def. With a Silver Axe equipped, she can turn Brave Lances down to a 3RKO. That's not bad. And if she can somehow get to max level? 32 HP / 18 Def. And that, my friends, makes Brave Lances (25 Atk) into a 4RKO. And if durability isn't what you seek, make her a Sniper again: she can double with a Silver Bow against Paladins.

Now, there's two more things I'd like to say. If she goes Pure Sniper... she CAN double DracoKnights. If she goes pure DracoKnight, she loses out on some AS, but she can't double promoted enemies anyway (except Generals, another advantage toward her). Even if you swap them around, the only difference is miniscule: 5%, which usually can result in... 1 AS loss. Sniper will lose the capability at worst to double DracoKnights, but slapping Parthia should OHKO anyway. Now Matthis can at least match the latter, but the former (DracoKnight)... not so much. He'd have to build up a Lance and an Axe rank at the time (granted he'd be near Ridersbane at best).

Guess that's one advantage of DracoKnight Minerva: not needing the tediousness of Axe rank build-up. And that she can master a second class very easily. Not that Matthis can't either with a Staff rank built onto him, but he'll never double and such as a Sage.

To clear it up (in case you're slightly tl;dr which is fine) then let me sum it up:

- Minerva can master two classes: one with good durability and one that can double often or simply hurt flying units.

- Matthis has to stick with Sniper, as otherwise he's doing chip damage with Magic. He still can't double with the Magi set-up either.

- Minerva as a DracoKnight has 1-2 capabilities as well as Ridersbane, Poleaxe, and Hammer.

Edited June 18, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

Matthis below Minerva, it is.

[Dat Nick]

Was Minerva vs Vyland ever discussed?

let's look into it right now.

Cav Vyland has a huge period of suck that Minerva doesn't [i'm going Sniper with her] so she's obviously winning before Vyland promotes. Let's look at C16 for when he finally does [he's also reclassing to Sniper]

20/1 Vyland: 37 HP, 13 str, 17 AS, 10 def

8 Minerva: 31 HP, 11 str, 17 AS, 11 def

The fact that they're this close after Vyland's spent all this time sucking says something. Also, Minerva gets an extra point of ATK from A bows and has access to Silver which Vyland does not, yet. Even when he does get silver, it takes him a while to significantly beat Minerva in offense [don't see him breaking the tie until endgame]

Edited June 18, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[Rodykitty]

I don't think it has.

[grandjackal]

I think all that needs to be said is Minerva needs little to no training and no master seal, while Vyland does.

Also colonel, thoughts just came up between me and the green haired draco...

1. Explain how Julian is getting to level 27 by the time braves show up. Level 20 is around the average when we're around the chapter with the first secret shop (tte chapter before Etzel's). Even with 2 levels per chapter, he's getting to level 26, which just barely gets himself 1RKOd by lances by the time braves show up. He needs to be level 27.

2. Have you tested these Devil weapons yourself and found them reliable at high luck? If not, how can we trust how negligeable it's effect might be? Got calcs? Might not be the same in this game as it's been for others.

3. I think he has too much a hard-on for generics, but apparently he's complaining about how an extra unit slot could bring in more, so the money Julian would be scoring us in key sales is lost in generic unit weapon sales, which apparently goes from around 4000-10,000. Even though I would ignore this point because it can be said about any unit, except Julian minimizes this if not gives you more money regardless, but I fell he'll bring it up anyways.

Edited June 18, 2009 by Kuja

[Dat Nick]

3. I think he has too much a hard-on for generics, but apparently he's complaining about how an extra unit slot could bring in more, so the money Julian would be scoring us in key sales is lost in generic unit weapon sales, which apparently goes from around 4000-10,000. Even though I would ignore this point because it can be said about any unit, except Julian minimizes this if not gives you more money regardless, but I fell he'll bring it up anyways.

I wasn't complaining about that since it's still pretty likely he'll have a net gain unless you get really unlucky without even knowing it and miss out on a ton of heal staves, I was just pointing it out.

Edited June 18, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[Rodykitty]

Didn't notice the whole level 27 part.

Is Julian still beating Paola?

[Colonel M]

1. Explain how Julian is getting to level 27 by the time braves show up. Level 20 is around the average when we're around the chapter with the first secret shop (tte chapter before Etzel's). Even with 2 levels per chapter, he's getting to level 26, which just barely gets himself 1RKOd by lances by the time braves show up. He needs to be level 27.

Starts at Level 1 on C4. Braves show up by C20. Grand total number of chapters? You have 19 chapters to do so, and he isn't waiting around for a freaking Master Seal. If you'd like, I can even try using Julian in my next playthrough to get a rough level where Julian ends at. He'll need two levels in certain chapters I guess.

As for average levels... that sounds about right. Though again, it also pends on how big or small the team is as well. You'll have to pour a little favoritism for levels (this I'll admit) but with Paola you have to pour a helluva lot more.

you tested these Devil weapons yourself and found them reliable at high luck? If not, how can we trust how negligeable it's effect might be? Got calcs? Might not be the same in this game as it's been for others.

Sorry about the text (it's deleting itself). Anyway, you'll have a slightly higher kickback when you double, but I guess with Julian you play a small risk game.

Dunno why you're asking me this though.

Edited June 18, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

Starts at Level 1 on C4. Braves show up by C20. Grand total number of chapters? You have 19 chapters to do so, and he isn't waiting around for a freaking Master Seal. If you'd like, I can even try using Julian in my next playthrough to get a rough level where Julian ends at. He'll need two levels in certain chapters I guess.

4 chapters with 2 levels, he's having a hard time getting to it.

Sorry about the text (it's deleting itself). Anyway, you'll have a slightly higher kickback when you double, but I guess with Julian you play a small risk game.

Dunno why you're asking me this though.

Mainly because you hype the devil axe for Roger as well, so I figured you tested this and found devil weapons easily reliable at high luck. None of us know exactly the mecahnics of the devil weapons. For all we know, it could be a 10% risk every attack.

But to clear things up, it's not like Julian is by any means reliant on said weapon, just he is the more viable option for them. His problems are getting out of his start, and getting to 27 by the time braves show up.

However, he does make you money in key sales, is probably one of your better midgame offensive units, and is easily your best anti-swordsmen lategame (as that 1RKO is with those bonecrushing lances in mind).

[Colonel M]

4 chapters with 2 levels, he's having a hard time getting to it.

Probably not so much when he's built up. Again, it'd be something good to look into.

Mainly because you hype the devil axe for Roger as well, so I figured you tested this and found devil weapons easily reliable at high luck. None of us know exactly the mecahnics of the devil weapons. For all we know, it could be a 10% risk every attack.

...Why is it always me?

Anyway, I've used Devil weapons on Roger post-promotion and for the most part I haven't seen too many, if any, repricussions (though in response, I've only used it sparingly due to the Devil Axe having roughly 15 uses left). I can TRY to test it because I'm on the same chapter where you get Starlight, but I'm not going to guarantee that I'll know so.

(BTW Chainey hyped that thing a little bit at first, then I probably took it a bit out of context).

For the most part it SHOULD work like the old calculation (31%-Luck), but it could be different.

But to clear things up, it's not like Julian is by any means reliant on said weapon, just he is the more viable option for them. His problems are getting out of his start, and getting to 27 by the time braves show up.

Which is the main reason he should stay under the Nagi / Gotoh line. I'm not suggesting him to come closer to Nabarl but he does have a lot of positive contributions.

However, he does make you money in key sales, is probably one of your better midgame offensive units, and is easily your best anti-swordsmen lategame (as that 1RKO is with those bonecrushing lances in mind).

K. I'm not questioning your doubt. It's better to do somehting like this than just to let someone else figure it out or whatnot.

Edited June 18, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

Okay...

Devil stuff I'm sure isn't cracked up to be above all end all.

Julian isn't going to realistically hit level 27 by Ch. 20.

Yadda yadda.

...

But the question is...

...

Is he still beating Paola?

[grandjackal]

Okay...

Devil stuff I'm sure isn't cracked up to be above all end all.

Julian isn't going to realistically hit level 27 by Ch. 20.

Yadda yadda.

...

But the question is...

...

Is he still beating Paola?

With the resources we save with using him, and the fact he's pretty good offensively in midgame, and that once he DOES hit 27 he's also offensively great lategame as well? I'd say that makes him better than just Paula shooting down wyverns (since Julian with the devil sword actually has a good chance of just downing these suckers himself. Granted, it's the devil sword...)

[Rodykitty]

Well, most characters in the game can just class swap on the spot and shoot down dragon knight filled chapters, though Julian can't do that so it's a slight negative for him.

One may be able to argue that having another unit with higher move with keys that helps with efficiency to be more valuable than the extra gold, though there probably aren't that many places where it's actually faster (I'm definitely certain Ch. 15 is faster with using Pegasus Knights with keys), so you can still have some gold left over.

Also, if Julian is dependent on the Devil Sword, then will he be able to avoid running out of uses?

Going to the other side, will Paola be able to easily catch up with Julian? Will her joining time hinder her in comparison to Julian?

Edited June 18, 2009 by Chainey

[grandjackal]

Well, most characters in the game can just class swap on the spot and shoot down dragon knight filled chapters, though Julian can't do that so it's a slight negative for him.

Considering Julian can double, with a devil sword in hand, he can do somewhere between 18-22 damage per strike, and he's more than capable of doubling. This would total to 36-44 HP. If he's not one rounding, he's certainly hurting them pretty damn badly.

One may be able to argue that having another unit with higher move with keys that helps with efficiency to be more valuable than the extra gold, though there probably aren't that many places where it's actually faster (I'm definitely certain Ch. 15 is faster with using Pegasus Knights with keys), so you can still have some gold left over.

Fine then, Julian can go off doing actual combat then. Needless to say, only pegasi out-doing him in battle is probably Minerva and Athena.

Either way, we could have just sold those keys and let Julian handle it. But apparently, you want your pegasi to cost more money...

Also, if Julian is dependent on the Devil Sword, then will he be able to avoid running out of uses?

He's dependent on them to one round, which I garuntee most of your army that late isn't pulling off anyways unless they have a sheer speed advantage. He doesn't NEED them to say he has an actual form of offense. Example, with 11 strength, A swords and a silver sword in hand, he 2 rounds a hero, leaving them with 16 HP, which most of your army can't even say. Even Cord's finding it a tad risky due to losing hit with axes. With the devil sword, he leaves them in single digits, you could take them out with freaking iron weapons at that point.

11 Str is what Julian has at level 18, by the way. Lategame, he's bound to be higher, with more strength to go with it. Couple points more? Devil sword puts heroes to sleep.

There are also 2, and they have 25 uses. That's 50. By the time we're considering them for deadly offensive strikes, we've got the hammerne and it's wtf 12 uses. Running out of uses we are not.

Going to the other side, will Paola be able to easily catch up with Julian? Will her joining time hinder her in comparison to Julian?

Yes. Yes it will, also considering speed is a major problem with her. She pretty much needs to go sniper, I recall she gets quad'd as a draco, so her durability is barely any better than his. Once he hits 27 to avoid lance slaughter (note he's fine against everything else), they have generally the same durability (save bows, where he wins) but now he has better offense still due to doubling.

Another thing she has to worry about that Julian doesn't? Master Seal.

Edited June 18, 2009 by Kuja

[Dat Nick]

Colonel did the numbers wrong, actually. Julian starts at level 3 in Chapter 3 and has 20 chapters to get 24 levels. This means he'd need 1.2 levels per chapter, which actually sounds semi-reasonable.

[Mekkah]

hi

However, I think we can immediately rule out Marth [for Devil Sword] as we absolutely cannot risk it.

The risk is still there for whoever else uses it, and the impact of that unit dying is still great enough to force a reset, since a lot of work just went down the drain if it's mid/late game, and before that it means Julian or whoever can no longer contribute for the entire game (don't even say Aum Staff). Which is arguably as bad for your tier position if not worse than forcing a single reset.

[Dat Nick]

Oh, while I'm at moving Minerva up, Her>Endgamers should be talked about. I believe Chainey said that characters who are more of a benefit than a hassle should go above them, and Minerva is certainly that. In fact, with the definition I just gave her, Upper Mid seems more accurate for her [Her chances against Jake also look pretty damned good]

Edited June 18, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[grandjackal]

So who thinks Shiida should go above Maric?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

So who thinks Shiida should go above Maric?

I doubt it. What do you have up your sleeve this time?

[grandjackal]

What, it's not obvious?

Maric goes healer for epicness. This we know.

However, anyone can go healer, s his use is a bit diminished as one. He's not outdoing any other healer out there, including Shiida. Shiida however, has earlygame wing spear (the cavs early on are tough shits, and you have few forces to fight against armors, and she ORKOs them unlike every other person on your team save Barst, who might even miss). Then she goes mage and provides something Maric isn't, magic damage with doubling.

Until he promotes, he can't ever pull off the same offense she can. Of course when he promotes, he is durable. This is a great advantage. However, let's compare.

Maric at promotion has 6 mag and D rank tomes. Shiida has this as level...I believe it's 18 with a higher tome rank. Yeah, not much, but keep in mind prior to it, she can use higher level magic by the time he promotes. Her damage output is a bit greater than his, both doubling regardless.

She promotes. Both can take silvers, but she can take at least a silver blow, given it hits her. She has...I believe a support with Marth and Ogma? I know she has another, but with her sheer speed and luck, she can manage some avoid. All Maric's got is Marth and not such stats. Her magic is a point better, she has staffs now, and higher tome rank.

He is better lategame though, due to him actually able to take a brave assault and the fact that Excalibur>Aura (and I doubt Maric can't kill anything she can with Aura when he's using Excalibur). However, the fact she is similar when he promotes and that she does what he SHOULD have been doing earlygame should be considered. It's a bit close, and my points aren't that well structured...But I know I'm on to something here.

[Colonel M]

One thing is Merric takes little (maybe no) penalty switching back to a Mage either.

[grandjackal]

One thing is Merric takes little (maybe no) penalty switching back to a Mage either.

Her speed beats his...non-existent leads.

[Colonel M]

Her speed beats his...non-existent leads.

...Excalibur doesn't count as a lead?

EDIT: Shiida's only support is Marth. It's just a slightly faster support.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Colonel M