H5 Tier list topic

[Dr. Tarrasque]

What, it's not obvious?

Would've already happened if it were.

Maric goes healer for epicness. This we know.

However, anyone can go healer, s his use is a bit diminished as one. He's not outdoing any other healer out there, including Shiida. Shiida however, has earlygame wing spear (the cavs early on are tough shits, and you have few forces to fight against armors, and she ORKOs them unlike every other person on your team save Barst, who might even miss). Then she goes mage and provides something Maric isn't, magic damage with doubling.

Earlygame Wing Spear and her Mage > Sage route capabilities are already why she's that high. To say that "his use a bit diminished as one" is stupid since, you've already got plenty more combat units and while it is true that just about any1 can go healer, who actually makes a decent Sage when taking the Curate > Sage route?

Until he promotes, he can't ever pull off the same offense she can. Of course when he promotes, he is durable. This is a great advantage. However, let's compare.

Maric at promotion has 6 mag and D rank tomes. Shiida has this as level...I believe it's 18 with a higher tome rank. Yeah, not much, but keep in mind prior to it, she can use higher level magic by the time he promotes. Her damage output is a bit greater than his, both doubling regardless.

Marich at promotion has 8 MAG actually and D rank in tomes with 30 WEXP towards a C which is 45 so you need... 8 rounds of combat for him to get a C rank and oh look, the very first Bolganone is from the C12 boss and he easily promotes by C11 or C12. Does he give a damn about reaching B when he's already capable of using the B rank tome Excalibur and the rank bonus is just 5 ACC? No, so he's not in a hurry to have Sheeda's superfluous weapon rank. Sheeda has 9 MAG once promoted... just one more than Marich not to mention that he'll have a level lead where he'll have damage and superior staff rank. Sheeda's seeing promotion at mid C16 the earliest and if she goes Cleric > Sage, Merric will have the superior damage output and it'll be a while before she reaches C rank in tomes so Merric's clearly better than her if you take this route.

She promotes. Both can take silvers, but she can take at least a silver blow, given it hits her. She has...I believe a support with Marth and Ogma? I know she has another, but with her sheer speed and luck, she can manage some avoid. All Maric's got is Marth and not such stats. Her magic is a point better, she has staffs now, and higher tome rank.

Concrete durability >>> relying on avoid. Keep in mind that her staff rank is lower too so she won't be healing as much due to not having access to Recover which Merric already has and Sheeda's damage lead is mostly dependent on use of Aura, which is limited and is probably running low on use since she wants to use a good amount early anyway.

He is better lategame though, due to him actually able to take a brave assault and the fact that Excalibur>Aura (and I doubt Maric can't kill anything she can with Aura when he's using Excalibur). However, the fact she is similar when he promotes and that she does what he SHOULD have been doing earlygame should be considered. It's a bit close, and my points aren't that well structured...But I know I'm on to something here.

Staying back to heal in order to level up ridiculously fast and get a decent lead >>> being a glass cannon. Again, he has a level lead on her which allows for some time with both superior combat, durability AND staff use.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Sirius

[grandjackal]

My argument was shot down the minute Colonel said they both have the same support x.x

Ugh...Not been in my good mind lately x.x

Also did not realize that weapon rank for tomes is utterly superfluous in this game...x.x God I hate weapon rank.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Exactly how did that support detail shoot down your argument? Because if all you had was just that support, your argument was worthless right from the start.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Sirius

[grandjackal]

Exactly how did that support detail shoot down your argument? Because if all you had was just that support, your argument was worthless right from the start.

it's mainly for lategame. Units that tend to have great speed and luck (very few and far between), with supports you can actually pull off avoid lategame. The key is if you have enough supports. For example, go check up on sniper Navarre, you'll see what I mean. Of course him as a sniper is dumb to get him attacked anyhow, but you get the point.

However, she does not have enough supports...

Perhaps I am masochistic in debating x.x

[Colonel M]

The only thing I said was: Excalibur reach is an advantage for Merric, thus he can swap out of Curate if he desires. Then the cancelling of Shiida's support (she supports him, not the other way around).

EDIT: Well, assuming Marth only and just simply stating she maxes Spd and Luck (quite possible), she has about 40 base Avoid, then Marth jumps that to 50. That's still curbing Braves into the 40s if she gets the extra 10%.

EDIT2: Alright then, I think I have a case for Roger > Darros. I know you're sick of it, but let's look away from statistics (kind of). Now here's what I would like to focus on: the amount of time it takes to improve or, in some cases, catch up to the team.

Two things, first I want to use IOS's post when comparing Athena to Roger. The second is Sirius's post:

Also, most of this wall of text is already stuff that has been taken into account in each and every stinking comparison there is with Darros: He has sucky offense and a bad earlygame, it's a stinking fact that has been stated too many time, acknowledged and never denied.

So granted he can get an early promotion to an extent. Though, notice in IOS's post how quickly Roger here can improve: C11 he's already showing a significant improvement, and C14 he's nearly comparable in a lot of aspects. So... think of it like this. It takes Roger roughly 7 chapters max in order to improve around everyone's level (maybe less if you want to consider C11). For Darros it takes from Chapter 2-maybe 12X. That's a grand total of about 12 chapters. Technically speaking, Roger here improves faster than Darros despite joining later.

Then go back to the Brave scenario. Granted Darros takes 0 damage, but notice with WTA and supports Hero!Roger can bend Brave Lances pretty low. AND, he can bend them a bit lower if he sits in a forest (C20 has some terrain). C21 is a bit open-spaced but there ARE mountains to the west. C22 also has mountains.

And before we get too far into Darros's side, keep in mind that many units above Darros take less time to improve as well.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

Since nobody disagreed with BB on Minerva vs. endgamers, I'll move her above them.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Chainey

[Dat Nick]

I was aiming to get her above Jake and Jagen or at the very worst into Upper Mid, but I'll do that later.

[_____]

Wait, wait, wait.

I don't quite understand the reasoning for Minerva's rather large jump.

[Dat Nick]

What rather large jump? All she went over was Vyland and the endgamers.

[Colonel M]

Wait, wait, wait.

I don't quite understand the reasoning for Minerva's rather large jump.

Oh, while I'm at moving Minerva up, Her>Endgamers should be talked about. I believe Chainey said that characters who are more of a benefit than a hassle should go above them, and Minerva is certainly that. In fact, with the definition I just gave her, Upper Mid seems more accurate for her [Her chances against Jake also look pretty damned good

And can you really say someone like Matthis is that good anyhow?

I'm just hoping Sirius doesn't get ticked at me for my suggestion.

As for the Devil Weapon scenario, I believe it follows the same formula as the other games (31%-Luck). Though, if I may comment, it did take quite a bit (like over 10 Devil shots I think) to actually get a kickback with an 18 Luck Roger. It's a mechanic that I could try to manipulate since I do have an AR, but I'd rather not try to touch my H5 file yet. Given that... Roger can really dodge crap in forests with Shiida + Marth. With Roger on the WTA, I saw Camus bend his Gradivus down to 46 (which I loled, but I still got hit ;_;...)

Yeah yeah I know PEMN, but just thought it was pretty funny anyway.

[_____]

What rather large jump? All she went over was Vyland and the endgamers.

...

Oops. >_>;

[Dat Nick]

Anyway...

Minerva vs Jagen is kind of similar to Wendell vs Horace. It's a case of epic earlygame versus epic midgame. You could argue that Jagen is helping out more where the game is at his hardest and is damn near necessary, although I'd say his usefulness runs out at about C6 and from there he's just taking up space. Minerva on the other hand doubles most stuff pretty consistently up until C21, which is also an open map, meaning a lot of trouble for her. Considering how much longterm use she has I say that more than outweighs Jagen being vital for six chapters.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

While it is true that Roger improves rather at a decent pace, he's not contributing anything in the chapters he's not around.

[Colonel M]

While it is true that Roger improves rather at a decent pace, he's not contributing anything in the chapters he's not around.

Though in response to this, neither is Darros to an extent. His Movement makes him a slight liability and weaknesses are more stressed onto him than others. Granted it's every destined Armor Knight's problem lies in, but it's simply choking him in usefulness.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Though in response to this, neither is Darros to an extent. His Movement makes him a slight liability and weaknesses are more stressed onto him than others. Granted it's every destined Armor Knight's problem lies in, but it's simply choking him in usefulness.

Hmm, chip damage to help your team, Ridersbane use, good tanking against Horsemen... I don't see how see none of this is useful since it's quite the same that most of your earlygame units are doing and as said many times, MOV isn't much of an issue in the early since you proceed slowly to avoid getting your units ripped to shreds. His only weakness in the earlygame would be the mages and the few Armorslayers. Everything else is 2 rounding him just like every1 else.

You want an earlygame liability? It's called Cavalier Gordin and Archer Gordin too.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Sirius

[Colonel M]

Hmm, chip damage to help your team, Ridersbane use, good tanking against Horsemen... I don't see how see none of this is useful since it's quite the same that most of your earlygame units are doing and as said many times, MOV isn't much of an issue in the early since you proceed slowly to avoid getting your units ripped to shreds. His only weakness in the earlygame would be the mages and the few Armorslayers. Everything else is 2 rounding him just like every1 else.

You want an earlygame liability? It's called Cavalier Gordin and Archer Gordin too.

The main issue is his damage output at that point. You mention Ridersbane, but keep in mind that he's starting with an E Rank in Lances. It could take a while to obtain this (not saying in a span of 6 chapters but get the point) and there are other units that can also use it (Abel and Hardin are two good examples). He's fine damage-wise, I guess, since everyone else is kind of sucking, but they'll be doubling soon unless you're using a joke like Cavalier Gordin and Archer Gordin.

He's not as big of an earlygame liability as Gordon, but even Gordon can escape that situation by going Cleric.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dr. Tarrasque]

The main issue is his damage output at that point. You mention Ridersbane, but keep in mind that he's starting with an E Rank in Lances. It could take a while to obtain this (not saying in a span of 6 chapters but get the point) and there are other units that can also use it (Abel and Hardin are two good examples). He's fine damage-wise, I guess, since everyone else is kind of sucking, but they'll be doubling soon unless you're using a joke like Cavalier Gordin and Archer Gordin.

He's not as big of an earlygame liability as Gordon, but even Gordon can escape that situation by going Cleric.

Lvl 4 Marth with Steel Sword = 14.5 ATK

Lvl 4 Knight Darros with Iron Lance = 13.6 ATK

D rank takes 15 rounds of combat. Won't take long before Darros can attack indirectly. I'm aware that others can use Ridersbane but Darros can still make use of it as well.

Don't see his damage output being that much of an issue when it's not far below Marth's and it'll soon surpass his. Marth has Rapier yeah but the point is that Darros' damage isn't that far off.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Sirius

[Colonel M]

Lvl 4 Marth with Steel Sword = 14.5 ATK

Lvl 4 Knight Darros with Iron Lance = 13.6 ATK

D rank takes 15 rounds of combat. Won't take long before Darros can attack indirectly. I'm aware that others can use Ridersbane but Darros can still make use of it as well.

This is just one unit though. Keep in mind there are other units like Barst and Cord who are much better than them, and we also have Marth who has Rapier for Cavs / Armor Knights.

MY main point is go further on when everyone barring Darros is doubling. He has a way to fix this, but it's not a weapon that has forever use. D is likely... I'd say two chapters tops. So, by C6 I'd say Javelins and Steel Lances are good. Let's give Darros two levels as well as Marth:

Lvl 6 Marth w/Steel Sword = 16.5 Atk, 9.5 Spd

Lvl 6 Darros w/Steel Lance = 17.3 Atk

Then, we'll pit Darros having C Rank by C8 and Marth having Silvers at this point. I'll give them simply 3 levels now:

Lvl 9 Marth w/Silver Sword = 23 Atk, 11 Spd

Lvl 9 Darros w/Steel Lance = 18.4 Atk

Though I mentioned the Spd values for Marth, he won't double just yet. But to give you the idea that once he does he will be beating Darros in damage except with Ridersbane, which Marth can match or beat with Rapier.

Only doing this because you mentioned Marth, 'tis all.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Then, we'll pit Darros having C Rank by C8 and Marth having Silvers at this point. I'll give them simply 3 levels now:

Lvl 9 Marth w/Silver Sword = 23 Atk, 11 Spd often facing WTD which will drop his ATK to 20

Lvl 9 Darros w/Steel Lance = 18.4 Atk

And then Darros later gets Silver Lance use.

The point being, Darros' damage issues aren't as bad as you think and unlike Roger, he's contributing in the time Roger's not around and while Roger offense, Darros has very good defense which is something not many can say.

[Colonel M]

And then Darros later gets Silver Lance use.

The point being, Darros' damage issues aren't as bad as you think and unlike Roger, he's contributing in the time Roger's not around and while Roger offense, Darros has very good defense which is something not many can say.

But by the time Darros gets Silver Lance, Marth here is doubling, beating out Darros's damage output in aspects. Though agian, you've only shown Marth, who isn't exactly a god among damage output and durability. There's other units in the team: those that either have good Str, better weapon selection earlier, or enough AS to double. Even those that land in 12 AS range aren't doubled by Horseman, which makes their damage output pretty awful (lol 17 Atk) in C8.

Though another aspect is "contributing". Fine then, what exactly do I get out of using Darros earlygame? A unit, which, you've conceded over and over that has rough spots to level up. I include C4, C6, C6X, C9, some of C12, and also C12X. Notice what I've listed has Mages in here or Pirates, which also aren't very kind to Darros either. I'm not going to bother counting how many units have Armorslayer.

Even your argument of an early promotion is quite shaky to be honest.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dr. Tarrasque]

But by the time Darros gets Silver Lance, Marth here is doubling, beating out Darros's damage output in aspects. Though agian, you've only shown Marth, who isn't exactly a god among damage output and durability. There's other units in the team: those that either have good Str, better weapon selection earlier, or enough AS to double. Even those that land in 12 AS range aren't doubled by Horseman, which makes their damage output pretty awful (lol 17 Atk) in C8.

Though another aspect is "contributing". Fine then, what exactly do I get out of using Darros earlygame? A unit, which, you've conceded over and over that has rough spots to level up. I include C4, C6, C6X, some of C12, and also C12X. Notice what I've listed has Mages in here or Pirates, which also aren't very kind to Darros either. Even your argument of an early promotion is quite shaky to be honest.

Aren't C4's Pirate 2 rounding every1? C6 has just 2 Mages, C6x is valid, C12 only has 3 Mages, C12x again has only 3 mages and the pirates are lol.

Yes, I've conceded that he has a bad earlygame but as pointed out many times, how many are doing so spectacular that it actually beats Darros' mid and lategame? You have failed to explain how Roger's offense makes him better than Darros' defense, which we've gone over many times.

Early promotion huh, let's see...

3 Master Seals by mid C12. 2 are likely taken by the 2 curates/priests. If you for some reason decide not to promote one of the curates (for example, Rena who takes a while to make use of Aura and you probably don't promote her because you don't care for her chip damage at this point). So this leaves for certain 1 Master Seal and another possible for a combat unit that has reached lvl 20... With that combat unit, we're getting just 1 unit who has an easier team killing things.

With Darros, we get promotion when he reaches 20 DEF which would then turn to 24 DEF vs the highest ATK at this point being 27. The tank sounds much more appealing for he would have Silver Lance and durability to cripple enemies and let your other units kill, sometimes without fear of counterattack.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Sirius

[Colonel M]

If we argued that hitting Level 20 is difficult to say by C18, how much sooner is Darros promoting then? He needs to be roughly Level 16 to have 19.5 Def, so Level 17 at worst. 12X is pretty rough say for him unless you can argue him reachin Level 16 at that point, at which one could also argue a unit like Cord, Barst, or Oguma could also take that Master Seal. And then, you have to factor the point where there's a rough say in him catching levels since he's got (at the best) one chapter behind everyone (going from 4 to w/e). The main reason I mentioned Level 20 by C18 was because you've mentioned units like Oguma and such getting help back at 17X to get promoting.

For Roger's offense main thing I pointed to was IOS's post, which addresses it pretty well. He can start 2RKOing as soon as C11, C14 at the latest. By C20, we have a unit that isn't hit about 60% of the time (even less if we include the forests) and can ORKO Paladins pretty easily. Braves are dangerous, but they also have slightly lower Hit and most of your "offense" team is getting good on AS and many have supports to back it up.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dr. Tarrasque]

If we argued that hitting Level 20 is difficult to say by C18, how much sooner is Darros promoting then? He needs to be roughly Level 16 to have 19.5 Def, so Level 17 at worst. 12X is pretty rough say for him unless you can argue him reachin Level 16 at that point, at which one could also argue a unit like Cord, Barst, or Oguma could also take that Master Seal. And then, you have to factor the point where there's a rough say in him catching levels since he's got (at the best) one chapter behind everyone (going from 4 to w/e).

For Roger's offense main thing I pointed to was IOS's post, which addresses it pretty well. He can start 2RKOing as soon as C11, C14 at the latest. By C20, we have a unit that isn't hit about 60% of the time (even less if we include the forests) and can ORKO Paladins pretty easily. Braves are dangerous, but they also have slightly lower Hit and most of your "offense" team is getting good on AS and many have supports to back it up.

Here's what I've had by the end of C10:

Lena = lvl 20

Marth = Lvl 8.76

Shiida = Lvl 5.96

Cain = Lvl 13.59

Abel = Lvl 14.49

Ogma = Lvl 14.74

Barst = Lvl 15.07

Wolf = Lvl 6.02

Sedgar/Zagaro = Lvl 6.31

Merric = Lvl 14.84 (he had more time as Mage than he should've)

Marth didn't get much level ups since his durability stays the same for the most part an a Forged Rapier would be the offense he needs. Sheeda was temporary use... screw having many units that need Master Seal on your team. Catria was added to this team later and she had to wait a bit for promotion as well.

Never did I end up obtaining a Master Seal where some1 wasn't ready to use it and I often found that I ended up having 3 units waiting for promotion and had to wait a few chapters to get it.

Unless you're making teams with so many units for whatever reason, you won't have trouble getting units to lvl 20 by C14.

[Colonel M]

I'm not trying to bash your argument into the ground, but the problem is there isn't Darros on this team either, which still demands the answer of if he's promoting as fast as Barst and pals, or is he really hitting a bit lower in levels due to the rockier start.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I'm not trying to bash your argument into the ground, but the problem is there isn't Darros on this team either, which still demands the answer of if he's promoting as fast as Barst and pals, or is he really hitting a bit lower in levels due to the rockier start.

A bit lower in levels due to the rocky start, yes. Promoting as fast as Barst and pals? I already told you why he'd promote sooner.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Sirius