H5 Tier list topic

[Deliriyum]

and basically equal spd, yes. Catria's much better than Palla.

How can you compare her to Caeda(shiida)

EDIT: nevermind, I overlooked your punctuation in your previous post, I really am bad at reading apparently

Edited June 25, 2009 by core34510

[Rodykitty]

As Pegasus Knight, Catria will beat a level 20 Sheeda in most stats at a mere level 10 (or 12, actually, since she starts at level 5 in the American version). Then will beat her in every single stat and match her in speed as she grows.

Catria being good as Swordmaster on H5 is a testament of how great she is in when you put her in a class that's much better.

I wouldn't recommend starting with Archer though. Catria has utility as a Pegasus Knight on Ch. 15, and will probably be earning experience on Ch. 14 as well. Sniper has a C in Bows off the bat, so unless you really want her to be a bow user right away, you can just wait until she promotes to become Sniper and she'll be able to use decent weapons right away.

[Colonel M]

Not to get touchy but... Paola > Matthis? Since we were all side-tracked a bit.

[Rodykitty]

Not to get touchy but... Reasons?

I can see it being possible, I just don't like doing things just because I'm told to.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Chainey

[Colonel M]

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?...st&p=463755

I wasn't forcing it, but the argument got a bit shafted with the... off-topic stuff. Though, in all honesty, I started the ordeal with the Hunter crap.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

That's only talking about Paola alone. We need someone to come that knows Matthis' strengths well.

[Colonel M]

Hm... judging by the route, I'd say Wolf would've been the expert on it all. Alright then, I'll wait patiently until then.

[Rodykitty]

Actually, I'm not seeing any stat setup where there isn't a huge gap between the two. Vyland vs. Paola the gap is close and Vyland's early game weighed out, but Machis sucks enough to where he doesn't really have any decent early game options.

I could have sworn Matthis was a bit better than this, but alright.

Dropping him below utility.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Chainey

[Colonel M]

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?...&pid=419114

This post was by Sirius... granted it was a long time ago but now looking at it up close...

Perhaps this was what you were thinking of?

[Rodykitty]

Hmm, a good argument. Undoing my hasty change and waiting for some more debate.

[Colonel M]

The problem I have with this argument is Vyland is easier to get out of the so-called "doubled rut" than Matthis is.

Though this is assuming Archer -> DracoKnight (which, by the way, Archer anyone?) and to those parameters. They both start with the same base Spd too, but Vyland here has the higher growth (in Cav comparisons, almost double the growth). In fact, I don't get how Sirius got to the point of Matthis's earlygame was better than Vyland's in any way, especially when Vyland isn't killing us staying as a Cavalier.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

The problem I have with this argument is Vyland is easier to get out of the so-called "doubled rut" than Matthis is.

Though this is assuming Archer -> DracoKnight (which, by the way, Archer anyone?) and to those parameters. They both start with the same base Spd too, but Vyland here has the higher growth (in Cav comparisons, almost double the growth). In fact, I don't get how Sirius got to the point of Matthis's earlygame was better than Vyland's in any way, especially when Vyland isn't killing us staying as a Cavalier.

Archer was assumed for Vyland back then... I think. I remember arguing that he should stay Cavalier, opposing the Archer idea and resulting in the build he's got today.

[Rodykitty]

That clears it up. Down he goes.

[Colonel M]

Keep in mind Sirius that I wasn't pointing and blaming things on you from the past, but it was something that could've been relevant to the discussion.

Linde... lesse, I'd say this is one of the rougher areas. Technically she can stay as a Curate -> Sage forever and turn out alright. Going into a physical class in her case isn't very good. Also, it isn't a waste of resources (as in the Staves) like it is for Machis. Now, due to her Staff utility she can level up and catch up to Matthis even past promotion. Now she gets two advantages. The first is, assuming that you're going to allow something like Starsphere and Hammerne into account, Thoron can 2RKO a lot of enemies on maps. On top of that, she has the capabilities of pulling out a Warp, Recover, etc. She attacks from a distance at least, so the ORKO will only matter if it's a Brave shot.

Here it's Linde's secondary options (healing in particular) that stand out to Matthis. Granted he too has the Staff rank, but he can't go back to Sage in the middle of training as a Sniper.

I think I know why he got so high though, and to be frankly honest it's not that big of an accompishment: Parthia takedowns. It barely takes a lot of Str to accomplish this. Let's just say that it has 51 Mt before adding Str and that into account. Even Jeorge, despite being a major failboat, can ORKO DracoKnights with his piss poor 11 Str since the Bow and ranks jump his Atk to 64, so it would take something ridiculous in order to survive the shot.

[Deliriyum]

Interrupting your discussion, I've got some arguments against the Chapter 2 list. I've only covered Top and High tier so far, though.

Obviously, Jeigan is the best unit. I can't argue about that.

Then, for Riff vs. Sheeda...

1/0 Riff: heals 9 HP, 6 AS ,, 16 HP, 3 Def, 7 Avo

2/0 Sheeda: 12 Atk, 13 AS ,, 16 HP, 7 Def, 18 Avo (Wing Spear)

2/0 Sheeda: 11 Atk, 10 AS ,, 16 HP, 7 Def, 15 Avo (Javelin)

Riff is getting one-rounded by everything but the Cavaliers, but in return he comes with an invaluable ability, namely the ability to heal. At this point, he's the only one who can heal other units, even though it's only 9 HP per heal. Sheeda takes 11-14 damage (dependent on whether the Pirates have A axes or not), so two attacks kill her very easily as well, and there are also those nasty Hunters who one-round her with ease. And then her offense is pretty crappy as well. She can't really use her Wing Spear much because she'll eat such a strong counter, and with a Javelin she isn't doubling and therefore dealing pretty pitiful damage (6-7 against Pirates, 4 (wtf?) against Cavaliers, and she won't be attacking Hunters due to the critical counter that she'll eat). So overall, I think I value Riff's healing more than Sheeda's fighting.

Then there's also Oguma, who is pretty awesome.

4/0 Oguma: 11 Atk, 12 AS ,, 22 HP, 6 Def, 13 Avo (Iron Sword)

4/0 Oguma: 14 Atk, 10 AS ,, 22 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Steel Sword)

2/0 Sheeda: 12 Atk, 13 AS ,, 16 HP, 7 Def, 18 Avo (Wing Spear)

2/0 Sheeda: 11 Atk, 10 AS ,, 16 HP, 7 Def, 15 Avo (Javelin)

Oguma is deals more damage if neither double, Sheeda deals -slightly- more damage if both double, and they'll very rarely both double, because Sheeda won't be using her Wing Spear much due to her durability (and Iron Lance makes her damage output incredibly fail (5-6 damage against Pirates, 3 damage against Cavaliers, 7 damage against Hunters, and epic wtf at her damage against Cavaliers, by the way). So she'll often be using her Javelin, with which she is dealing one more damage than she would with an Iron Lance, which also means that she won't be attacking Hunters anymore. Also, Oguma is a bit more durable. He has a slightly higher chance to dodge Pirate attacks, gets three-rounded instead of one-rounded by Hunters, and fares pretty equal against Cavaliers (though, Oguma can take a Cavalier and Hunter hit, which is pretty win at the moment). Overall, I'd say Oguma is better than Sheeda, even though he lacks a 2 range option.

Then for Oguma vs. Riff, I think Oguma is a tiny bit better than Riff, because he actually has a pretty good durability lead and actually does have pretty good offense (unlike Sheeda).

Abel might also be better than Sheeda.

2/0 Abel: 11 Atk, 8 AS ,, 21 HP, 7 Def, 9 Avo (Iron Sword)

2/0 Abel: 13 Atk, 7 AS ,, 21 HP, 7 Def, 8 Avo (Javelin)

2/0 Sheeda: 12 Atk, 13 AS ,, 16 HP, 7 Def, 18 Avo (Wing Spear)

2/0 Sheeda: 11 Atk, 10 AS ,, 16 HP, 7 Def, 15 Avo (Javelin)

Better durability for sure. He has a 20% chance to get four-rounded by Hunters, and though that admittedly is quite a tiny chance, that chance does exist and makes him a pretty valuable unit against Hunters, with their annoying 2 range and good AS (though Abel doesn't get doubled if the Hunter has 10 AS, or if the Hunter has 11 AS and Abel uses an Iron Sword/Lance).Then Abel also has a 20% chance to get three-rounded by Cavaliers. Overall, Abel's durability is a lot better than Sheeda's, just as with Oguma vs. Sheeda. And then Abel's offense is clearly better because he can put it to use more often, and because he has a higher damage output overall.

Then I'd say Oguma is better than Abel due to doubling and practically equal durability, so there needs to be no switching between them, I'd say.

3/0 Barts: 17 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Iron Axe)

3/0 Barts: 18 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Hand Axe)

3/0 Barts: 20 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Steel Axe)

2/0 Sheeda: 12 Atk, 13 AS ,, 16 HP, 7 Def, 18 Avo (Wing Spear)

2/0 Sheeda: 11 Atk, 10 AS ,, 16 HP, 7 Def, 15 Avo (Javelin)

Barts, with Steel, deals 16 damage to a pirate in one single blow. Sheeda, when she doubles with her Wing Spear, deals 14-16 damage, and then she likely won't even be using the Wing Spear against them. Offensively, Sheeda is a massive failure compared to Barts. Perhaps he has some trouble hitting with the Hand Axe, but then again, Sheeda suffers from WTD most of the time, isn't going to be used against Hunters, and takes heavy damage from Cavaliers (so either she takes attacks, takes huge damage, kills, and gets killed the next enemy phase, or she uses a Javelin, deals pitiful damage, and doesn't die. Fail anyway. Barts on the other hand, doesn't fail as much. In fact, he's doing incredibly well here, two-rounding Pirates and Hunters, and leaving Cavaliers with 4 HP after two rounds, allowing anyone to get an easy kill. I don't know how Sheeda is ever beating that.

Barts vs. Abel?

2/0 Abel: 11 Atk, 8 AS ,, 21 HP, 7 Def, 9 Avo (Iron Sword)

2/0 Abel: 13 Atk, 7 AS ,, 21 HP, 7 Def, 8 Avo (Javelin)

3/0 Barts: 17 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Iron Axe)

3/0 Barts: 18 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Hand Axe)

3/0 Barts: 20 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Steel Axe)

Easy victory for Barts, I'd say. Clearly superior offensive parameters, and practically equal defensive parameters. Cavaliers two-round both of them, Hunters three-round both of them, and Pirates two-round both of them. Both can survive a Cavalier and Hunter hit. Barts wins.

I'm giving Barts the victory in Barts vs. Riff as well. Granted, Riff's healing is invaluable, but I say the same of Barts's huge-ass offense. His durability is also pretty decent, while Riff usually gets one-rounded.

Barts vs. Oguma is probably very interesting.

4/0 Oguma: 11 Atk, 12 AS ,, 22 HP, 6 Def, 13 Avo (Iron Sword)

4/0 Oguma: 14 Atk, 10 AS ,, 22 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Steel Sword)

3/0 Barts: 17 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Iron Axe)

3/0 Barts: 18 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Hand Axe)

3/0 Barts: 20 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Steel Axe)

So basically, it's lots of Atk vs. doubling some of the pirates. If Oguma doubles, he's two-rounding, just like Barts is. Plus, Barts has a 2 range option, which is something Oguma lacks. So I'm going to say that Barts is better than Oguma as well. Then, for epic lolz, I'm going to compare him to Jeigan as well.

3/0 Barts: 17 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Iron Axe)

3/0 Barts: 18 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Hand Axe)

3/0 Barts: 20 Atk, 9 AS ,, 24 HP, 6 Def, 11 Avo (Steel Axe)

?/1 Jeigan: 20 Atk, 8 AS ,, 22 HP, 9 Def, 8 Avo (Silver Lance)

?/1 Jeigan: 14 Atk, 8 AS ,, 22 HP, 9 Def, 8 Avo (Javelin)

Barts is actually pretty damn close. They deal equal damage overall (though Jeigan deals one less damage if the Pirates have A axes) with Steel and Silver. Pirates two-round Jeigan if they have A axes no matter what, and two-round him if they have 20 Atk. Barts gets two-rounded as well. Hunters four-round Jeigan and three-round Barts. Cavaliers two-round Barts and three-round Jeigan. Now, I'm not trying to prove Barts superior to Jeigan, but I just want to show how fucking h4x he is in this chapter. I feel you've massively underrated him.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but don't axe users typically have low hit rates? thats only considering if barst hits every time, which seems like it would be unlikely throughout the whole chapter

[Dat Nick]

Quoting long post AND huge generalization ftl. Iron Axes have 80 hit. Enemies can't dodge. There's pretty much no sword users in this game. You put two and two together. Also, Barst actually has skill growth.

[Deliriyum]

Quoting long post AND huge generalization ftl. Iron Axes have 80 hit. Enemies can't dodge. There's pretty much no sword users in this game. You put two and two together. Also, Barst actually has skill growth.

hmmm, well ok. I'll see for myself when I do H5 on my next playthrough

EDIT: lol I just realized that post on chapter 2 was on page 17, and it is completely irrelevant at the moment... I apologize

Edited June 26, 2009 by core34510

[Colonel M]

Yeah, it's not very easy to compare H1 to H5. There's a pretty noticeable difference (IMO).

EDIT: You know... is anyone going to defend Matthis? I just find it odd, is all.

EDIT2: What's up with the interruptions too? ;_;

Edited June 26, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

I would defend Matthis but...his bases suck, and his growths don't fix his problem areas fast enough. He basically has to stick archer to be anything, or go healer-sniperfor pre-promote form use.

[Deliriyum]

If you don't want to be interrupted, then ignore me, but from now on I'll try to keep things on topic B)

[Colonel M]

A little bit straying from the discussion, but shouldn't Wrys be under the "utility 2" area or am I missing something? Ah well.

[Rodykitty]

A little bit straying from the discussion, but shouldn't Wrys be under the "utility 2" area or am I missing something? Ah well.

No. Wrys has utility, but he can actually fall somewhere on the list.

I am going to put Jeigan above the Ballistians simply because I am sure he's the one causing this confusion. Plus, Jeigan is the poster old man boy of being more of a benefit than a liability.

I would defend Matthis but...his bases suck, and his growths don't fix his problem areas fast enough. He basically has to stick archer to be anything, or go healer-sniperfor pre-promote form use.

Well, I guess that settles that. Edited June 26, 2009 by Chainey

[Dat Nick]

Hm....Is Minerva vs Lena arguable?

[Rodykitty]

I mean, Rena is useless at anything other than healing, early warp and hammerne and the argument is just going to fall back on those aspects vs. whatever Minerva's doing?. Should I just toss her below Jeigan?

[Dat Nick]

As long as Lena stays in Upper Mid, why not?