H5 Tier list topic

[Colonel M]

It pends on the size in particular, yes. How big is your team, how long have you hung around in some chapters (as in have you stayed when reinforcements arrived), etc?

Sirius had something like a 7-8 man team that was about Level 15 by C9 or so. It's cool to ask otherwise, since yeah it depends on what your team is manning on.

knight

60% def growth and 12 base=pwn

Once promoted, but yeahyeahDarrospwn.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

Wow. Umm...Apperently you have no idea that growth rates play a major role. Navarre's 90% in HP is going to make a huge difference when compared to Gordin's 60% in HP. That being said, Gordin's 30% in DEF growth will also make a difference when compared to Navarre's 10% DEF rate. Now, look at my comparisons from my last post. Navarre endgame and Gordin. There's a 8point difference in favor of Gordin in terms of defence and 4 points for Navarre in terms of HP. Not only is it personal experiance, but it's logic. It's a no brainer that some people had the bad luck of having a Gordin at lv 20 archer with all of his skills under 12. I, personally, once only had his DEF above 12 at lv 20, the reas was around 10-ish. Nothing guarenteed.

Base stats play just as big, if not a bigger role than growths. The problem with Gordon is while his defensive growths are certainly impressive, he is going to get doubled by everything due to horrible speed, and poor speed growth, meaning he'll take forever to get out of a bad state. Not to mention his offense is pretty poor too, awful enough to where going Swordfighter is a bad idea.

No to mention the enemies off the start, even in CH1, a single Pirate can kill Draug in one turn or at least leave him with anywhere from 1-4 HP. That's logic. I dare anyone to have Draug attack an pirate off the start and see how much health he's got left. Obviously do not continue as he will die but if anyone should stop talking, it's you. As I said, certain things we only for me. But, as I also keep trying to say: Growth rates do play an important role. I and willing to be my life that by endgame if Marth's lv 30 his luck for anyone will be at least 20. With a 70% chance and 29 levels to climb, 20's the lowest I'll go. So, in terms of personal experiance, yeah, not all of us will be the same, but in terms of logic/growth rates/common sense/DOTHEMATH, I think I win.

Chapter 1 is actually where Draug can tank. He gets killed in four shots, but enemies on Chapter one aren't doubling him. It's on Ch. 2 where he starts getting doubled and becomes a bit of a liability, but then you have a bunch of units that can take his place, and he is still extremely helpful against thieves that can do quite a bit of damage to whatever they double, but nothing to Draug.

The fact that Daros and Draug are up-mid is beyond me. You've heard my Draug argument and unless you give Darros an Iron Axe, he'll get double-hit and killed by a single enemy. He also has poor accuracy. That's common sense and can also be seen through anyone's personal experiance as well as the growth rates. Still don't believe me? How's about I tare apart the tier list for ya and show you I'm right, hunh?

But then here's the part that you didn't consider. Draug's tier position is not based on Armor Knight, and neither is Dolph's or Roger's. Reclass is what makes Draug Upper Mid right now (though he could drop since he gets horrible defense as an Axe using class).

I don't fully know about Darros, but apparently he gets Def fast enough to stop sucking as Armor. Horace is obviously utility and doesn't have early game fail, and can easily be benched when he starts to suck, meaning you never had to work hard leveling him, so he doesn't need to fall.

Roger is passable simply for his Luck. with a growth of 80%, you damn-right I'm relying on a percentage

Luck is a terrible stat in this game. It gets cut in half in calculations. But Roger is actually pretty good, because his starting stats are so good.

All of the healers should be in up-mid. Wrys, Lena, and Maria. They will level faster than anyone because of all the healing you will do. Then, change them classes and Fire/Thunder/Blizzard the shit out of the lack of enemy RES. As for healers, I generally use Matthis, Vyland and Roshea because they're uselss anyway so they might as well do something. Roshea is actually useable as a mage. He's got a decent magic growth and a great HP rate for a mage.

This used to be the case, but then they fell, but with good reason. Pretty much any character in Class Set A or is already promoted can be a useful healer. Gordon as Curate is better than Maria in almost every way. The only thing better about Lena over Wrys is that she starts with better staff rank and can use Hammerne, otherwise her stats are garbage. We already have Merric and Wendell as our High/Upper Mid healers, and even Jeigan makes an okay one.

While 20/20 may not matter, you also ahve to consider Wolf and Sedgar, trying to level them. They are probably the best units in-game but the biggest pain in the ass in H5. As for 20/20, I usually just abuse the bosses and by CH5 I've changed Ogma and Gordin, and Draug thanks to the online shop and master seals. I do not use Knights, do not get confused whenI say Draug, in CH4 I found he's alot more useful as a Pirate/Berzerker. I also found that the game is easier if you forge your weapons ever so slightly. About 3 in MT and bringing the Accuracy up to 90 I've fonud makes a difference without wasting too much money.

Yes, they have to work to get EXP, but it isn't like they're pre-promotes in FE7 where they are getting 1 EXP per kill. Like GreenHairedDracoSaid, they're getting around a dozen EXP per kill, on top of weakening things for EXP. Every level up they get is the equivalent of two or three level ups for every other character.

Also, online shop is not considered. Neither is boss abuse, which makes you a bad person.

How big are these assumed teams?

My endgame team consisted of around 7 trained units, but 8 might be a safe bet.

[dondon151]

I've a core team of 10 units, and then the rest for utility like Lena, Minerva, Wendell, Jake, etc.

Scratch the 15/0 part; I've got quite a few units at 13/0 or 14/0. If you're curious, I've skipped all of the gaidens (I don't like taking more time than necessary to complete FE) and I've warp skipped the Griygas chapter, and most of the time I don't wait for reinforcements.

Those variables aside though, there's a giant difference between 20/4 and 14/0.

Edited June 30, 2009 by dondon151

[Rodykitty]

Granted, my 7 man team included Lena trained as healer, and Merric was trained as Mage (though the other healer I was using was Wendell and even Wrys).

[Dat Nick]

Skipping the gaidens along with 10 being more than I would use is likely it.

[dondon151]

Would removing 3 units from my group and going to 2 sidequest chapters yield 9-10 levels for 6-7 other units? That's something giant like 5400-7000 EXP.

[Colonel M]

Would removing 3 units from my group and going to 2 sidequest chapters yield 9-10 levels for 6-7 other units? That's something giant like 5400-7000 EXP.

You'd be surprised.

I don't see how a 10 man team is totally impractical, but I guess it does have some minor flaws if you don't choose the right units (as in you have to be careful on how many Mid-joining units you're choosing from, probably using Wolf / Zag / Hardin / Athena to cut down in levels needed, etc).

[Rodykitty]

For a larger team, I imagine you would have to stress teamwork all the more and if you plan on cutting down to give better levels, probably use some of your "ditchable" units as utility.

[Colonel M]

For a larger team, I imagine you would have to stress teamwork all the more and if you plan on cutting down to give better levels, probably use some of your "ditchable" units as utility.

You definitely need Gaiden Chapters and to use a bit of the reinforcements (as in use them as much as you can). I'm not advocating that you need it 100% of the time, but a little boss abuse (like weak chip damage and having a big man finish him off) helps a bit. I'm not saying boss abuse is necessary as I've done without it. It does help speed up the process slightly, if only you doing it for a couple of turns max (no more than 2-3 is what I'm getting at then finish him off. It's just becuase it's 10 free CEXP).

There's some more restrictions, but sometimes the larger man teams can be a bit more flexible in other areas (easier to divide into groups, etc). My problem is just having too many favorites that are good.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Colonel M

[Capracanis]

How's about we do a playthrough without losing units? I did H5 without losing anyone...

[Rodykitty]

How's about we do a playthrough without losing units? I did H5 without losing anyone...

Cool, but it won't affect tiers.

[Dat Nick]

lessee

Let's keep morons like Gordon alive when I'm just going to bench him anyway, and then I won't get any EXP for who I AM using, no generic meatwalls to distract foes from units whose lives I actually value.

Yeah. Fair trade. What am I gaining from keeping morons like Bord and Gordin alive rather than sending them off so I can get generics and go to gaiden chapters, again?

[Colonel M]

Yeah. Fair trade. What am I gaining from keeping morons like Bord and Gordin alive rather than sending them off so I can get generics and go to gaiden chapters, again?

At least a 20/1 General!Bord does alright with the Hunter set-up. Nothing stellar, but at least it's not terrible.

Him and Gordin are still useless otherwise. Okay, except in C1-3, maybe 4 at the most.

[Rodykitty]

He's trying to make a point.

The stance on gaiden chapters is that the characters you sacrifice are guaranteed to be ones you aren't going to use, no matter who they are, there is no real loss.

[Colonel M]

I know I know.

Why you would play "survive everyone" playthrough anyhow is beyond me. Besides, C12 would be a pain in the ass.

[Rodykitty]

For achievement. It's understandable why one would do that, but obviously it doesn't apply to the tier list.

[Colonel M]

K, so other than dondon's post... would 20/4 Nabarl seem fair by C16 tops? Or would you say 20/1 only? It would be assuming he promoted in C14 by the by.

[Capracanis]

At least a 20/1 General!Bord does alright with the Hunter set-up. Nothing stellar, but at least it's not terrible.

Him and Gordin are still useless otherwise. Okay, except in C1-3, maybe 4 at the most.

I've found from personal experiance that as a Hunter, Bord has 30SPD as a 20/20, but everything else is under 20points. I mean, his HP for me was like, 37 at lv20.

I've only ever done Gaiden chapters for the story. I've unlockd everything in the event viewer thingy. Granted, so has everyone else.

Also, when you consider that Gordin can actually take a bit of a beating at the start of H5, I'd recommend using him. I, personally hate him for his shit stats, but hey, he's useful for me.

[Dat Nick]

I've found from personal experiance that as a Hunter, Bord has 30SPD as a 20/20

um....no. This is why we dont give two shits about your personal experience.

Also, when you consider that Gordin can actually take a bit of a beating at the start of H5

Two rounded in C1 and then one rounded later is taking a beating...since when?

Capracanis. Stop posting. Seriously. It is crystal clear you have no idea what tiers are, you should not be discussing them, and you need to get the hell out of this topic right now.

[Capracanis]

um....no. This is why we dont give two shits about your personal experience.

Two rounded in C1 and then one rounded later is taking a beating...since when?

Capracanis. Stop posting. Seriously. It is crystal clear you have no idea what tiers are, you should not be discussing them, and you need to get the hell out of this topic right now.

My error. It's a 20/20 Cord hunter/Horseman that has the insane speed/everything else sucks. This is my 2nd time I've confused the two names. While we're at it, why don't you explain what a tier is? Apperently, I'm retarded.

I know I know.

Why you would play "survive everyone" playthrough anyhow is beyond me. Besides, C12 would be a pain in the ass.

Because you can brag that you beat H5 without a casualty.

[Rodykitty]

K, so other than dondon's post... would 20/4 Nabarl seem fair by C16 tops? Or would you say 20/1 only? It would be assuming he promoted in C14 by the by.

Hmm, I think it would have to depend on whether other characters have reached Lv. 20 or not. Plus efficiency may affect EXP gain, so I think it would be safer to have some room for error.

Then again, there is no real standard right now, so if people agree with your numbers, then by all means, we have a standard.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Chainey

[Colonel M]

It should be about right. 1 Level per chapter yields about that, then there's C13 for the margin of error. Well, slight margin of error I guess. C14 and C15 would need about 1.5 levels per chapter then.

[Rodykitty]

Alright. Go ahead with those numbers.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I don't really care if Horace can go into the long term. If he can, fine, but I think it's clear that Darros is a better long term unit.

The real question is: how useful is Darros before Horace comes. I'm sure Sirius can answer this since he seems to believe he is useful.

About the same level of usefulness as many characters. Thing is that Darros actually goes long term unlike many of such units.

*Personal Experience, stat boosters, biased arguments, favoritism, yada*

HOLY SHIT! WE SHOULD MOVE RICKARD UP THEN BECAUSE HE BECAME SUPER SPECIAL AWESOME IN ONE OF MY H5 PLAYTHROUGHS!

Edited June 30, 2009 by Sirius

[Colonel M]

Nabarl > Catria.

Suffice to say, Nabarl has a whoamg hueg lead in the amount of chapters that he is in. As for Catria, I will be quite considerate and give her something like... 6 levels for C16 vs 20/5 Nabarl

Nabarl - 39 HP | 17 Str | 14 Skl | 15 Spd | 16 Luck | 16 Def | 3 Res

Steel Axe - 27 Atk

Hand Axe - 25 Atk

Devil Axe (Player Phase only) - 34 Atk

Silver Lance - 31 Atk

Ridersbane (added Mt) - 42 Atk

Catria - 24 HP | 9 Str | 12 Skl | 17 Spd | 9 Luck | 10 Def | 6 Res

Silver Lance - 23 Atk

Javelin - 17 Atk

Ridersbane (added Mt) - 34 Atk

C16

3 Horseman [2 lvl 6 1 lvl 8]

3 Wyvern [lvl 6]

6 Cav [2 lvl 10 3 lvl 8 1 lvl 6]

1 General [lvl 2]

1 Paladin [lvl4]

1 Priest [lvl 8]

2 Hero [lvl 4]

Horseman 6:

36 HP

22 atk

108 hit

16 AS

6 (7) def

3 res

Horseman 8: [Forged killer bow]

37 HP

23 atk

118 hit

16 AS

7 def

4 res

Wyvern:

42 HP

Atk: 26 Poleax, 27 Horseslayer, 28 Silver Lance

103 hit

16 AS

11 (12) def

4 res

Hero:

40 (41) HP

28 atk, 19 Thunder sword [Res hit]

115 hit, 126 Thunder Sword

17 (1 AS

10 def

3 res

Cav 6:

34 HP

26 atk [Horseslayer]

104 hit

11 AS

8 def

1 res

Cav 8: [2 Jav 1 silver sword]

35 (36) HP

28 atk [26 Javelin]

109 hit [105 Javelin]

11 AS

9 def

1 res

Cav 10: [1 Armorslayer, 1 Horseslayer]

37 HP

27 atk

105 hit (110 Armorslayer)

11 (12) AS

10 def

1 res

Paladin:

43 HP

29 atk

107 hit

15 AS

10 def

7 res

General:

45 HP

29 atk

106 hit

9 AS

15 def

4 res

Priest:

25 HP

10 HP heal [Reserve]

10 AS

4 def

9 res

Thief:

30 HP

22 atk

111 hit

19 AS

3 def

Boss: Holsard

50 HP

31 atk [Forged Killer Lance. And bow.]

113 hit

10 AS

17 def

3 res

Oh yeah.

Reinforcments happen in short bursts. You get a 10 Horseman, 8 Horseman, and 2 8 cavs a turn, with silvers. a Cav and an armor [armor with similar stats as their last apperance] a turn out of a distant fort. Might wanna clog these up.

So of course one would mention how Nabarl and Catria would be weak to bows, correct? K, let's go over this: 22 Atk is a simple equation: We get something like 10 base Atk + 36 = 46. Thanks to Nabarl's base Def, he can survive one impact from a Bow with 9 HP. Catria, unfortunately, is not so lucky.

Single hits, Nabarl with a Steel Axe will suffice at times if only to build an Axe rank. Against DracoKnights, Nabarl with a Steel Axe can 3RKO, if the Devil Axe exists its a 2RKO. Catria with a Silver Lance is something like a 4RKO, sometimes 5 if they wield an Axe. In return, neutral on the weapon triangle (Hammer) 4RKOes Nabarl while WTA (Horseslayer and Silver Lance vs. Axe) is about a 4-5RKO. You must admit, at this point this is pretty damn good especially against DracoKnights.

As for Ridersbane, they both double Cavs and single hit Horseman. Nabarl can ORKO the 36 HP / 6 Def variant, but the others is unfortunately left out. If Nabarl does have an A Rank in Lances, he can ORKO the 36 HP / 6-7 Def variants. Catria 2RKOes them. They both double Cavaliers, so I don't think I really need to say a whole lot on that subject as they both ORKO. With a Steel Axe, Nabarl can ORKO most of the Cavs except the Level 10. Defensively... it's difficult to explain. I'll just make the notion of WTA at times. Let's just say Nabarl is 5RKOed by them, and Catria is 2RKOed. God, DracoKnights are durable as fuck even at this point.

I'll zoom to C21. Catria can be about 20/3 and Nabarl would be closing in to 20/10.

Catria - 34 HP | 18 Str | 21 Skl | 21 Spd | 14 Luck | 17 Def | 4 Res

Nabarl - 43 HP | 19 Str | 16 Skl | 18 Spd | 18 Luck | 17 Def | 3 Res

Look, I'm just going to make some small notes on this. Nabarl can close in on a Silver Axe, but will not say that he is A Ranking atm. Catria is likely for D Rank, so bending the weapon triangle is an alright assumption. She can double all Paladins while Nabarl cannot, though Nabarl at least can come close. I'll just make mention of what they face with WTA and the #RKOs:

22 Atk (20) - 6

23 Atk (21) - 8

24 Atk (22) - 10

25 Atk (23) - 12

26 Atk (24) - 14

27 Atk (25) - 16

Nabarl is 3RKOed at the very worst. Catria is as well, so she narrowly esapes that problem. Though, Nabarl's facing his 4RKO against the 14 Atk buffoons. Catria doesn't face a 4RKO until the 24 Atk minions.

To make note, they can be bent lower if they're Swords, but just a minor mention. Next question, is there an actual Atk difference? Not really. Nabarl is slightly practical with a Silver Axe at this point, but otherwise nothing much. Nabarl 3RKOes and Catria isn't doing a whole lot better due to lack of doubling.

Even if Catria gains 22 AS, she can't double almost anything in the next chapter due to everyone sitting around 20 AS. The later chapters is where they both double (like Mages) or never double (Snipers and Heroes). Max doesn't do much better either.

If she goes Paladin... dunno, BB made the assumption in my old debate that she did. I remember that too, I used the worst Dolph (why the fuck didn't I use Hunter -> General Dolph is beyond me). Anyway, it's Nabarl's big Def capabilities, massive amount of chapters where he does help the team, and still ends pretty well being something like a mini-General.