H5 Tier list topic

[Rodykitty]

I'll put Daros above Horace until somebody is able to prove that Daros isn't as useful as other units.

[Capracanis]

I'll put Daros above Horace until somebody is able to prove that Daros isn't as useful as other units.

He's Daros. Proven.

Edit: Unless he's a Dark Mage. The fact that his DEF grwoth is 15% makes him Passable, but anything else, sucks. The only way to make him useful is to get him to 20 then promote him. And even that's a bitch because his growths as anything suck.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Capracanis

[Dat Nick]

The fact that you think Knight Daros sucks is further proof that you need to remove yourself from this topic, the sooner, the better.

[Capracanis]

The fact that you think Knight Daros sucks is further proof that you need to remove yourself from this topic, the sooner, the better.

Yeah, you play the way you want to. I'll do the same. For example, I'dd never thought of making Nabarl a DracoKn. because I dislike the though of his speed being lowered on re-class. Sure he get's more DEF but the double hits are killer for those uber enemies in H5.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Edit: Unless he's a Dark Mage. The fact that his DEF grwoth is 15% makes him Passable, but anything else, sucks. The only way to make him useful is to get him to 20 then promote him. And even that's a bitch because his growths as anything suck.

The fact that you're suggesting DM Darros really doesn't help you at all.

Yeah, you play the way you want to. I'll do the same. For example, I'dd never thought of making Nabarl a DracoKn. because I dislike the though of his speed being lowered on re-class. Sure he get's more DEF but the double hits are killer for those uber enemies in H5.

... If he were doubled and received more damage Draco Knight wouldn't even be suggested.

[Dat Nick]

I'll do the same.

Okay, then. Get the hell out and you do the same. Just stop bugging us.

[Rodykitty]

Let him stay. I enjoy good laughs.

[Capracanis]

The fact that you're suggesting DM Darros really doesn't help you at all.

... If he were doubled and received more damage Draco Knight wouldn't even be suggested.

Yeah, he does take more damage but there's also the chance that he dodges more, not to mention that as a D-Kn, he cannot sue the terrain to his advantage. In H5 the terrain will make or break the line. Granted, he can fly over damn near fucking everything in case he does get low on health. Also, unless you Re-class him as a Cavalier as soon as you can (Which I'm assuming you did) he'll have shitty Wep-stats as a D-Kn. His Lances/Axes will not be that high. Another downfall is the archers who, after a while, only hold Silver and Steel bows and will bring him down almsot instantly. I'll give you that only a moron would make him charge the 2Archers & 1Sniper in Ch9 as you enter the castle. Some of you may not have promoted him yet but for those of use that take advantage of the online shop I'm sure you're going to want some of his strength.

[Rodykitty]

The only times you can chance evasion is either fighting Ballista (which even these guys become extremely accurate), or with like three supports stacked onto a character with WTA while sitting on a situational hill vs. Brave Weapons and in the end still the enemy has around 55% displayed hit.

[Capracanis]

The only times you can chance evasion is either fighting Ballista (which even these guys become extremely accurate), or with like three supports stacked onto a character with WTA while sitting on a situational hill vs. Brave Weapons and in the end still the enemy has around 55% displayed hit.

Yeah. The Wooden Cavalry level is such a bitch on H5. Thank god for Physic staves. I mean, I do feel ashamed of one thing. On certain levels, if the enemies are overwhelming, I'll just grab 3 staff users and trade the Warp among them to have 3 guys (1 being marth) kill the boss and take the point. I mean, Port Warren was a real bitch. After the first wave of the reinforcements thhat come from the uper left, I had to warp to win. No Knight by this point (Unless you Abused the bosses and Promoted) could take a beating from the Horsemen.

[Rodykitty]

Daros can, if you leveled him up normally, and if he couldn't be leveled up normally, he wouldn't be as high as he is.

[Colonel M]

Daros can, if you leveled him up normally, and if he couldn't be leveled up normally, he wouldn't be as high as he is.

Well, I question it at times (C6 for example), but keep in mind no matter how much I hate Darros / Kashim and the such, I will not go as far as saying that they suck.

Nabarl's Avoid is decent. Nothing spectacular, but decent with Braves. Showing those numbers above for a 20/10 DracoKnight Nabarl he has 27 natural Avoid, 37 with WTA. Supports include Oguma, Shiida, and the obvious Marth, adding a possibility of +30 Avoid. Even with Marth + 1 support, it's still a significant amount totalled on (57) and consider Brave weapons sit on 88 (DracoKnights), then in the lower 90s, you must admit that dodging isn't totally out of the question in the first place. Yes, Avoid sucks, but that concrete durability more than makes up for it. Someone tell me that being 3RKOed at worst (excluding Bows) is terrible when it comes to Braves, and I'll be sure to shove a Gradivus up your ass. I dare just about anyone. As long as no one throws the General card because yes we know, Generals are usually wtfdurable.

Finally make note of Nabarl's Spd. Brave-wise, no one exceeds 21 until maybe Endgame, and he'll be at a higher level at that point.

I may suggest some awkward things, but that alone does not make me a stupid person. Not that anyone is really challenging this, but it appears to me that Cap is coming close toward that. Tell me that his weapon selection as a Cavalier sucks, because allow me to point to many reclassed units that would be damn thankful to have something like Nabarl's.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

Well, I question it at times (C6 for example), but keep in mind no matter how much I hate Darros / Kashim and the such, I will not go as far as saying that they suck.

When I say this, I am speaking to someone that is implying that no armor is going to be able to take punishment, when we know there are ones that can. This is not a matter of arguing Darros' position, it's a matter of clarifying facts.

Nabarl's Avoid is decent. Nothing spectacular, but decent with Braves. Showing those numbers above for a 20/10 DracoKnight Nabarl he has 27 natural Avoid, 37 with WTA. Supports include Oguma, Shiida, and the obvious Marth, adding a possibility of +30 Avoid. Even with Marth + 1 support, it's still a significant amount totalled on (57) and consider Brave weapons sit on 88 (DracoKnights), then in the lower 90s, you must admit that dodging isn't totally out of the question in the first place. Yes, Avoid sucks, but that concrete durability more than makes up for it. Someone tell me that being 3RKOed at worst (excluding Bows) is terrible when it comes to Braves, and I'll be sure to shove a Gradivus up your ass. I dare just about anyone. As long as no one throws the General card because yes we know, Generals are usually wtfdurable.

So basically... The almost exact same numbers I listed in my post.

Avoid sucks in this game. The only reason 50 percents are good for Navarre is because he obviously has the durability to back himself up (and thus is even more reason why durability > avoid). A character that is completely reliant on avoid is going to keel over if they get unlucky. Please don't try and convince n00bs that their arguments of avoid actually mean something.

[Colonel M]

When I say this, I am speaking to someone that is implying that no armor is going to be able to take punishment, when we know there are ones that can. This is not a matter of arguing Darros' position, it's a matter of clarifying facts.

Which we're attempting to do.

So basically... The almost exact same numbers I listed in my post.

Avoid sucks in this game. The only reason 50 percents are good for Navarre is because he obviously has the durability to back himself up (and thus is even more reason why durability > avoid). A character that is completely reliant on avoid is going to keel over if they get unlucky. Please don't try and convince n00bs that their arguments of avoid actually mean something.

I wasn't hyping it. The durability plus "okay" Avoid is the only reason that I would even suggest it a whole lot. I know Avoid until that point practically sucks and should never be mentioned solidly in the argument.

I don't get where you're thinking that I'm implying that I'm even convincing n00bs that their argument was valid. If anything, it was more along of backing up your statement. It requires supports, good AS and Luck, etc.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

I don't get where you're thinking that I'm implying that I'm even convincing n00bs that their argument was valid.

Because suddenly you talk about how Navarre is getting avoid vs. Braves, especially since Navarre wasn't even part of this discussion.

This guy isn't thinking, "oh, Navarre's avoid sucks." He's thinking, "avoid is better than all of these armors, and I remember so from dodge machines in other games!" He obviously thinks that max speed and luck equates to good avoid in this game.

[Colonel M]

Alright, I see now. I didn't mean to add to that fire then. Besides, shitty Avoid is the main reason I like this game: more balanced than half the other FEs that hyped Avoid up the wazoo.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Colonel M

[Capracanis]

This guy isn't thinking, "oh, Navarre's avoid sucks." He's thinking, "avoid is better than all of these armors, and I remember so from dodge machines in other games!" He obviously thinks that max speed and luck equates to good avoid in this game.

Well yeah. I'm a gamblnig person. I'd rather take no damage than some damage any day. At elast in terms of avoid Navarre is better than Radd. Endgame, Radd's luck for me has always been under 18 even when I 20/20 him. Navarre's for me at 20/20 has never been under 24.

On the subject of Darros, on other forums when I argue the uselessness of knights early in the game is because of their speed. while he may be able to take punishment, he can easily be killed in 1 turn by 2-3 enemies pending on their weapons. Considering the enemies get Silvers and Steels pretty early, I'm guessng you're gonna be doing alot of healing and watching out for the healers. Hence, here my Gordin comes in. He does damage from afar without fear of being counter atked and has decent defence. He can do a fair chip early so the useless knights can come in for the kill. Speaking of Useless Knights, even when you reclas Darros, his base SKL still sucks horse dick. Granted, that's why I forge an Iron Axe (or in your case an Iron Lance) with aprox 15 more ACC and about 2 MT.

[Colonel M]

I... do admit his Hit rates are a bit on the iffy side. This statement, however:

he can easily be killed in 1 turn by 2-3 enemies pending on their weapons.

Congratulations, you have just stated how many enemies it takes to actually kill 90% of the FE Cast earlygame and even lategame.

Yes, I will admit that Darros is at risk of being one-rounded, but then again so is every other Armor Knight, and sometimes Social Knights when pitted against a Ridersbane. That's why the vast majority of earlygame consists of using ranged weapons or someone that can hit hard and be healed on that turn.

Avoid is non-existant on this mode, period. Don't even attempt to argue that "taking no damage is better than some" because that's why we have Generals in the first place. I love a good laugh and me adding fuel to the fire.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Colonel M

[Capracanis]

I... do admit his Hit rates are a bit on the iffy side. This statement, however:

Congratulations, you have just stated how many enemies it takes to actually kill 90% of the FE Cast earlygame and even lategame.

Yes, I will admit that Darros is at risk of being one-rounded, but then again so is every other Armor Knight, and sometimes Social Knights when pitted against a Ridersbane. That's why the vast majority of earlygame consists of using ranged weapons or someone that can hit hard and be healed on that turn.

Avoid is non-existant on this mode, period. Don't even attempt to argue that "taking no damage is better than some" because that's why we have Generals in the first place.

I disgree. If you manage to level Shiida right, you can dodge some attacks fairly easily until they start using Silvers. I think most enemies like Archers and Fighters are going to get raped. Maybe I'll replay H5 and see what the hell I did to survive...

[Colonel M]

Agree or Disagree anyone?

[Rodykitty]

Speaking of Useless Knights, even when you reclas Darros, his base SKL still sucks horse dick.

Lol, skill.

Agree or Disagree anyone?

I actually agree, so if nobody speaks up, I'll drop her.

Hence, here my Gordin comes in. He does damage from afar without fear of being counter atked and has decent defence. He can do a fair chip early so the useless knights can come in for the kill.

There are many characters in the game that can do this, and will also be able to actually kill and or do chip damage simply by choice of weapon, while Gordon will only be able to do chip damage and never really kill anything. Gordon sucks because his offensive power is garbage.

On the subject of Darros, on other forums when I argue the uselessness of knights early in the game is because of their speed. while he may be able to take punishment, he can easily be killed in 1 turn by 2-3 enemies pending on their weapons.

An AK's poor earlygame is why Darros isn't top tier (Zagaro & Wolf are Generals with the least early game fail), I'm sure, but people here think that the rest of the game he has outweighs this enough to put him in a good spot. Darros is going to go from having the same durability as every other character (like stated before), to having far more than they can dream of.

[Colonel M]

I remember Wolf and I when we did our debate, Steel Bow Gordon was comparable to Iron Bow almost any reclassed Archer | Hunter. It just showed how Gordon sucked.

I'm not going to keep re-hashing through the Darros vs. Horus argument. I agree with Wolf that him needing little levels to stick around is pretty awesome even if lategame is considered. --/19 Horus needs a DracoShield and he's impervious to crap, but yeah I think Darros being able to gain excellent durability by the time Horus shows up makes me believe that it's more likely Darros would win more than Horus. Maybe Wolf might speak differently on the matter, but otherwise I seem a bit neutral on it all.

[Rodykitty]

Sirius and Wolf need to speak about it among themselves as well. I can't continue mediating a character I know little about, and it's only bringing me frustration.

At least they're right next to each other right now. Until then, I'm keeping Darros as the higher character until I learn whose advantage outweighs better.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I'll probably end up conceding eventually just so all this shit between them can end... meh. It really is getting tiresome like the Soren hate in the FE9 thread.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Sirius

[dondon151]

I disgree. If you manage to level Shiida right,

How the shit do you level a unit right? I always level them left.

Edited July 1, 2009 by dondon151