H5 Tier list topic

[Colonel M]

Castor vs. Dolph doesn't need to be argued with the same arguments. I forgot to update the list.

K, I just wanted to show you that the Hunter route to General is a possibility and how good/bad it worked, since you kind of asked about it.

[Colonel M]

Time to stir up more trouble.

I dunno if Kashim > Doga is possible only due to Doga being a decent combatant in the lategame and helping out earlygame like Kashim. Eh, I'll look into it later.

Let's get back to slamming Matthis down a bit. Linde > Matthis shouldn't be terribly difficult here. It's utility vs. uh... chip damage, which Linde has. Linde using up the Cleric class is less of a detriment than Matthis here because her stats that are being transported with Cleric is actually being used. Tell me when Magic is useful on a Sniper, lulz. Anyway, chip damage is roughly the same most of the time. Linde doesn't really require work though: Staves are really the only thing she needs to care about. Once she promotes she possibly has Aura waiting for her and after C19 and C20 Aura is fine for perma-use. On top of that she has healing and Warp utility over that of Matthis. Matthis had this for a short time, but you'd be crazy to go from Sniper -> Sage for a chapter or two just to beat Linde.

I'd just state that Linde being somewhat easier to heal and auto-access to good chip damage (Aura) is decent enough to put Matthis in a hole, but I can easily do a comparison if necessary.

[Rodykitty]

I dunno if Kashim > Doga is possible only due to Doga being a decent combatant in the lategame and helping out earlygame like Kashim. Eh, I'll look into it later.

Doga is probably going to out-damage Kashim in pretty much any class due to having a chance to double things. If anything, Doga has a good shot at rising.

Let's get back to slamming Matthis down a bit. Linde > Matthis shouldn't be terribly difficult here. It's utility vs. uh... chip damage, which Linde has. Linde using up the Cleric class is less of a detriment than Matthis here because her stats that are being transported with Cleric is actually being used. Tell me when Magic is useful on a Sniper, lulz. Anyway, chip damage is roughly the same most of the time. Linde doesn't really require work though: Staves are really the only thing she needs to care about. Once she promotes she possibly has Aura waiting for her and after C19 and C20 Aura is fine for perma-use. On top of that she has healing and Warp utility over that of Matthis. Matthis had this for a short time, but you'd be crazy to go from Sniper -> Sage for a chapter or two just to beat Linde.

I'd just state that Linde being somewhat easier to heal and auto-access to good chip damage (Aura) is decent enough to put Matthis in a hole, but I can easily do a comparison if necessary.

Maybe. Even without taking account gimmicky class setups (which don't work. Sorry, so let's assume Mathis is going normal classes), I believe Vyland was argued as being able to out-damage Linda, but I don't know if Matthis can claim the same fame since his stats are gimped in comparison to Vyland's.

Despite the fact that Linda can win this, calling Aura chip damage is pretty much wrong. Her with Aura is only as strong as other Mages (Sages) with fire at this time. Don't call it good chip damage if it isn't actually good.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Samuto

[Colonel M]

K, how about Aura as "decent" chip damage other than "good"?

EDIT: Hmm... that set-up isn't terrible as long as he's about 20/10 by the time Braves are around. Him going above Darros is questionable though, but at least Hunter!Doga has slightly better earlygame than Armor Knight!Darros.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

Not even that. I would wait until she gains some levels before using it seriously. Not to mention others want to use it as well, so plowing through its uses like that isn't the best of ideas.

[Colonel M]

Aura would've only been used by the time she promoted. All it would really do is give her a boost in chip damage. She isn't anything spectacular, but again we also have to consider her Staff utility > Matthis since it's more likely to be used anyway.

EDIT: Only "other" that I see is likely to use it before Linde is Shiida.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dr. Tarrasque]

K, how about Aura as "decent" chip damage other than "good"?

EDIT: Hmm... that set-up isn't terrible as long as he's about 20/10 by the time Braves are around. Him going above Darros is questionable though, but at least Hunter!Doga has slightly better earlygame than Armor Knight!Darros.

Doubling perhaps but a bit offset by the lack of enemy phase.

[Rodykitty]

Aura would've only been used by the time she promoted.

Oh.

but again we also have to consider her Staff utility > Matthis since it's more likely to be used anyway.

This depends on how useful Matthis is before she comes.

[Colonel M]

Doubling perhaps but a bit offset by the lack of enemy phase.

Darros isn't screaming to be much better in some areas. Like many units that aren't 2-range, the only time they can have an Enemy Phase is if they were healed on the Player Phase or flung a Javelin. Also notice that Doga is nearly set with doubling by Level 9 (14 Spd).

EDIT: Okay, sometimes he can have it on Archers too. I will admit to that. Doga isn't counterattacking, but it's slightly negated by not taking damage on the Player Phase (most of the time). Well, now I don't know about that either... he seems shaky in that area too. >_>;

This depends on how useful Matthis is before she comes.

I wish I could sum it up by saying "a million units can be healers that we're likely to toss out", but I'm pretty sure that wouldn't fly out the window. Eh, maybe I'll try this argument first. >_>

Edited July 3, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Darros isn't screaming to be much better in some areas. Like many units that aren't 2-range, the only time they can have an Enemy Phase is if they were healed on the Player Phase or flung a Javelin. Also notice that Doga is nearly set with doubling by Level 9 (14 Spd).

I don't recall saying he was. Do however note that if both were to say... do the same damage per hit, Darros and Hunter would be doing the same for the most part.

9 damage x 2 on enemy phase.

9 damage on player and enemy phase.

Let's not overrate the SPD growth of the Hunter class when it lacks enemy phase. I'd say Fighter and so on is the much better option.

[Rodykitty]

I said Doga has a good chance of going up, not that it's guaranteed (if it is, Darros may go up with him). It certainly prevents Kashim from going above him.

"a million units can be healers that we're likely to toss out"

"Likely to toss out" is not an argument. Sorry. If it was, Matthis would have absolutely no chance whatsoever.

[Colonel M]

"Likely to toss out" is not an argument. Sorry. If it was, Matthis would have absolutely no chance whatsoever.

Then how about "we have a possibility of 3 healers earlygame: Merric, Jeigan, and Wendell if allowed", which underrates his healing utility a bit. Throw Rena on there too.

EDIT: Sirius, I'm not totally against Darros with that statement. Just stating that it pends on the situation for more than just Darros.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

Then how about "we have a possibility of 3 healers earlygame: Merric, Jeigan, and Wendell if allowed", which underrates his healing utility a bit. Throw Rena on there too.

Or it could be Matthis, Roshea, and Gordon if we wanted.

We're not assuming that we're always using the best, otherwise this list would be heavily biased and have favortism towards top units everywhere.

[Colonel M]

Yes I could also throw Wrys in that old argument.

Let me ponder this for a moment if I can.

EDIT: I guess a logical answer is going back on my old statement but tossing out the "killing them" argument, almost anyone can be as efficient as Matthis is as a healer. When it falls to Linde midgame and lategame, it's a bit more useful because the "usual" # of healers is a bit lower than to that of earlygame (possible, anyway).

Edited July 3, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dr. Tarrasque]

EDIT: Sirius, I'm not totally against Darros with that statement. Just stating that it pends on the situation for more than just Darros.

I'm mostly questioning the Hunter > General setup actually. Kinda sick of arguing about Darros and only using him as an example cause his name came up.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Sirius

[Rodykitty]

But what about Linde? Will she be as helpful as a healer as Matthis can be? Matthis is around for longer, after all.

That, and does it outweigh possible non-healer scenarios Matthis has before she comes? Is her time as Sage guaranteed to outweigh Matthis' whole availability?

[Colonel M]

I'm mostly questioning the Hunter > General setup actually.

Offensively earlygame or defensively lategame?

I'm looking at calculations with Braves, and if he's about 20/10, 25 Atk Braves pull a 4RKO.

[Dat Nick]

Despite the fact that Linda can win this, calling Aura chip damage is pretty much wrong. Her with Aura is only as strong as other Mages (Sages) with fire at this time. Don't call it good chip damage if it isn't actually good.

Linde's a crap unit and all that but this statement is a flat-out exaggeration.

20/1 Merric has 14 atk with Fire.

base level Linde has 20 atk with Aura.

And that's freaking Merric we're talking about. Imagine if this was vs Caesar.

Aura is the only thing making Linde's damage NOT suck. Her offensive issue comes when it breaks.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Offensively earlygame or defensively lategame?

I'm looking at calculations with Braves, and if he's about 20/10, 25 Atk Braves pull a 4RKO.

They're mostly 27 ATK actually and 20/10 Doga is 3RKoed.

27 ATK - 19 DEF = 8 per hit, 16 damage per assault. 2 hits he's down by 32 HP out of 43 and the next one... well, you don't need to be a genius to know this. We're giving him weaker offense capabilities in the earlygame for this?

@BB: Merric doubles. Linde does not.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Sirius

[Colonel M]

He's at least pulling 3RKOes, which is better than most non-Draco, non-Generals that we're considering. Also it's more toward 25 Atk, though Pallys once in a while can pull higher (27 is about the max). Snipers have about 25-26 when they have the Brave Bow, IIRC Horseman is like 19, the Dracos have 24 in C21 and 25 in C22, and Pegasi have 22 Atk flat out.

EDIT: For some Paladins and the Heroes, you also have to consider Swords being thrown into the equation, which then the Atk is dropped by 3 (4 if you have an A rank in Lances by then, which is somewhat likely).

He's also doubling some Paladins, so he's pulling ORKOes sometimes on those. As for Dracos and Pegasi there's at least Parthia to consider.

EDIT: I unno Chainey, I'd say that her chip damage as a Sage is sometimes better or equal to that of Matthis w/Bolganone, but I'd have to double check such a thing. I remember in my comparison with Jeorge she's about even with him in damage output and Matthis is about equal to a Jeorge here.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

@BB: Merric doubles. Linde does not.

But 15 AS still doesn't double everything, and Chainey didn't say just Merric, he said "all mages". So look at this with, say, Caesar or something and Linde might actually be winning.

I fail to see how 20 dmg is poor chip damage, anyway.

Edited July 3, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[Rodykitty]

The gap between the attack difference is larger than I remember, but remember, this is Aura and these other guys are wielding tomes that are storebought and don't have to worry about running out of uses with.

[Dat Nick]

I never disputed that Linde's useless without Aura.

I just wanted to clarify that Aura is cool during the time Linde can actually use it.

[Rodykitty]

I won't dispute that, but I don't see it as really cool enough to blow my mind.

[Colonel M]

K.

20/1 Linde - 18 Atk (Elfire), 16 AS

20/5 Matthis - 25 Atk (Silver Bow, A Rank), 16 AS

Notice that for unpromoted units the Def-Res gap is about 8-10. This is for about C17 mind you. Then hit C20 and assume Linde is about 20/5 and Matthis is about 20/9:

Linde - 21 Atk (Elfire, C-B Rank), 17 AS

Matthis - 26 Atk (Silver Bow), 18 AS

And since Pallies sit on 16-17 AS neither double. The Def-Res gap here is about... 4-6. This doesn't take into account that Linde can use Thoron or Bolganone.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Colonel M