H5 Tier list topic

[grandjackal]

Maybe. These are very unlike units.

Bord is also winning every parameter as Hunter -> Warrior, including the whole Dragon Knight killing part (well, I don't know if he's *winning* there, but at least he's doing so without rare weapons).

Proof he's 1RKOing wyverns without Parthia?

Any proof he's pulling off a durability lead on the generally 2RKO, of which he needs a healer like ETZEL around? :3

[Rodykitty]

Proof he's 1RKOing wyverns without Parthia?

Any proof Etzel is 1RKOing Wyverns without Excalibur?

This problem exists for both units.

Any proof he's pulling off a durability lead on the generally 2RKO, of which he needs a healer like ETZEL around? :3

No, but it's still slightly better durability than Etzel has, even if negligible. Edited July 9, 2009 by Chainey

[grandjackal]

Any proof Etzel is 1RKOing Wyverns without Excalibur?

This problem exists for both units.

Difference being we didn't have to train up Etzel to be able to do so with his weapon.

No, but it's still slightly better durability than Etzel has, even if negligible.

Bord can't fully heal others, Bord can't give someone extra resistance, Bord can't warp people around, Bord can't heal from spaces away, and eventually Bord can't heal many other units at once.

Bord can't fight Gharnef :B

[Rodykitty]

Difference being we didn't have to train up Etzel to be able to do so with his weapon.

Bord doesn't have to be trained up to use Bows either (and assuming that he's been used since early game, he's not rushing to get his rank up by Ch. 22 and also has bow utility in Ch. 10 that Etzel doesn't have part in). The difference is that while Etzel can use Excalibur, he's competing with two other units that use it.

Excalibur also cannot be forged. While many characters may want a forge, in this case Etzel's forgeable weapons aren't going to have the effective damage on Dragons, so he still won't be able to OHKO anything with forged weapons, while Bord may actually pull it off using a forge that allows someone else to use Parthia.

Bord can't fully heal others, Bord can't give someone extra resistance, Bord can't warp people around, Bord can't heal from spaces away, and eventually Bord can't heal many other units at once.

He could if changed to Sorcerer upon promotion, and could actually get a Staff level lead since Etzel joins much later than he does. This would mean that whatever he's trained as before promotion is irrelevant unless it's Dark Mage (which probably isn't recommended to do). Edited July 9, 2009 by Chainey

[Dat Nick]

He could if changed to Sorcerer upon promotion, and could actually get a Staff level lead since Etzel joins much later than he does. This would mean that whatever he's trained as before promotion is irrelevant unless it's Dark Mage (which probably isn't recommended to do).

Seeing as we wouldn't really promote Bord much later than C16, he doesn't really join that much later and at best could only tie Etzel's staff rank, while still getting creamed by him in every other parameter as well as no instant Excalibur use. Plus, Bord is adding a decent degree of suck to the team around early-midgame to staff utility [And tbh that's a pretty ridiculously long stretch to use a unit for staff utility anyway when we could just reclass even failures like Radd to Curate for very similar, if not better results, with much less effort and resources put into it]

So no, I don't think Sorcerer for staff utility is a very good argument for Bord, as you have plenty of people who can do it WITHOUT a Master Seal.

[Rodykitty]

Right. I'm just saying it is possible for him to do so, even though it is not favorable.

[Colonel M]

Allow me to ask: what is the problem with earlygame AK? I'm going to use Bord as the example to show that it isn't as detrimental as one thinks. Recall the HP / Def parameters and levels, for example:

3/0 - 19 HP / 13 Def

4/0 - 20 HP / 14 Def (13.5)

7/0 - 22 HP / 15 Def (14.7)

9/0 - 23 HP / 16 Def (15.5)

12/0 - 25 HP / 17 Def (16.7)

14/0 - 27 HP / 18 Def (17.5)

17/0 - 29 HP / 19 Def (18.7) (Do not pay attention to the FE averages here. This is his correct Def stat. Not sure on the HP)

19/0 - 30 HP / 20 Def (19.5)

I'm going to use C5 as an example. We'll say Bord is Level 4 and he'll get Javelins possibly midway through the chapter, which to me seems fair. I'm going to list the enemy's Atk value (and I'll include WTD if necessary):

Pegasus Knight: 19 Atk

Archer: 19 Atk

Cavalier: 20-21 Atk (18 Atk if a Sword user)

Thief (WTD): 13-14 Atk

Thieves tink Bord as is. For the Pegasus Knight + Archer, they do 10 damage a round, or a 2RKO. The 21 Atk, which is the highest value in this chapter for the most part (AKs have 23) 2RKO. So far, it seems that AK is bad.

Now let's assume C7 is when Bord is about Level 9. Again, the statistics:

Wyvern: 23 Atk

Pegasus Knight: 19 Atk

Mercenaries (WTD): 17-18 Atk

Archer: 19 Atk

Cav Reinforcements: I'm assuming 20-22 Atk, with the 22 Atk being the highest value. With Swords itranges between 17-19 Atk.

23 HP / 16 Def is now the major victory. If you argued lower, I dunno. Anyway, DracoKnights do 2RKO, but the Pegasi, Mercenaries, and Archers are almost a 4RKO (6 damage is quite lol, it's even worse with Mercenaries doing 2-4 per round). The Cavs pend on weapons, but it'd have to be the 22 Atk ones (if they even reach that high in the first place) in order to 2RKO.

Then consider C10 when Bord is likely Lv 12. Now his HP / Def is about 25 HP / 17 Def.

Cavs: 25-26 Atk (22-23 Atk if WTD)

Thief: 18 Atk

DracoKnight: 27 Atk (...Ouch)

Pegasi: 23-24 Atk, IIRC 21 for the Javelin girl

Horseman: 22 Atk

Archer: 23-24 Atk

Sniper: 23 Atk

lolnoHero

Barely any damage taken from the Thief, so let's scratch that out. Let's focus on the Bow-users first. 3RKO (it takes 5 hits) for the Horseman and a 3RKO from the Archers (about the same number of hits). The 24 Atk Archers are the first to 2RKO, and from there it should be obvious. Once again, sometimes being 3RKOed, sometimes being 2RKOed.

Only time that AK setups are usually at risk of ORKOes involves Armorslayers and Magic. I'll concede to them; however, keep in mind how uncommon they usually are. I don't know the EXACT number of Armorslayers, but for the most part there shouldn't be a high number of these.

So I don't see in particular how earlygame AKs really "suck" under most circumstances.

Early promotion is also a consideration. Taking C10's example, promoted Bord would have 35 HP / 21 Def. With these numbers already, the DracoKnights are the only units that can even 3RKO.

So AKs can also benefit from an earlier promotion, a minor advantage for them as well. C16 would be the latest I'd consider promotion, but being able to pull it off fine early on is pretty awesome.

[Rodykitty]

We need to remember that this is a class with offense problems as well that's never going to double, ever, and is reliant on killing weakened enemies for EXP. Its role is to tank the enemy phase to make everyone's player phase stronger, but even this is an issue until getting leveled up, due to always being doubled.

[Colonel M]

We need to remember that this is a class with offense problems as well that's never going to double, ever, and is reliant on killing weakened enemies for EXP. Its role is to tank the enemy phase to make everyone's player phase stronger, but even this is an issue until getting leveled up, due to always being doubled.

Remember that despite being doubled, the AK still has a chance of flinging a Javelin or pouding down with a Steel Lance. Most units that get 2RKOed don't have as many opportunities to counterattack like to that of the AKs in general, which is what makes their Def useful.

To give you an example: say that we have Cord and Bord left with 10 HP and the person attacking them has enough Atk to ORKO them, but Bord can reduce the attack to 5 damage per round. Cord gets shot down while Bord has that last chance to KO the opponent.

Doubling is not something that is extremely common earlygame either, thus the offense problem isn't a major issue. Units like Oguma and a well-built Cord can double, but for hitting 14-15 AS, that takes a while for some units. To give you an idea, 14 Spd Abel doesn't happen until Level 15, which is pretty significant.

By C7 the reclassed AKs should be able to use the Ridersbane, and it being broken is a ridiculous argument (just like Wolf not being able to use it by this point like GHD tried to pull in my debate) since there are few Cavs at this point (there's a grand total of 7. While a lot, that still leaves 13 uses minimum).

Edited July 9, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

Remember that despite being doubled, the AK still has a chance of flinging a Javelin or pouding down with a Steel Lance. Most units that get 2RKOed don't have as many opportunities to counterattack like to that of the AKs in general, which is what makes their Def useful.

The thing is, their Def doesn't start as useful. By getting doubled by everything, he's 2RKO'd just like anything that isn't meant to tank. The most Bord claims here is that he's doing more damage per hit on the enemy phase, but he's not able to do this kind of damage to multiple enemies until after being babied.

[Colonel M]

The thing is, their Def doesn't start as useful. By getting doubled by everything, he's 2RKO'd just like anything that isn't meant to tank. The most Bord claims here is that he's doing more damage per hit on the enemy phase, but he's not able to do this kind of damage to multiple enemies until after being babied.

2RKO'd, sometimes 3RKO'd pending on the circumstances. Horseman are an excellent example of being 3RKO'd. While AK's are usually meant to tank, you sort of have to let that slip out of your mind temporarily. It's really their HP that bites them in the ass (the Def is for a short time), but a 12/1 Bord (if you will) wouldn't require a ton of CEXP to reach there.

You can reach the General-tanking results at a decent time though: AKs may use up a Master Seal, but most can end with over 30 HP / 19 Def by promotion, which would still make the 27 Atk DracoKnight in C10 one of the few units to actually 2RKO such a unit. By most, I mean the most "logical" unit that would go toward AK -> General and join around the same time as Bord.

They can make a slight impact on the Enemy Phase at least since, though the circumstance isn't 100% common, he can survive a hit that would normally ORKO him, counterattack and kill the enemy, and still allow for a safe Player Phase. It's different to that of Zag and Wolf, but besides them you're right: earlygame no AK can really tank. So, in other words, they're pretty comparable to the team which still isn't saying the words "they are bad units".

Edited July 9, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

you sort of have to let that slip out of your mind temporarily

No, I can't let this "slip my mind" in a tier discussion where all factors need to be considered.

And I'm not denying that they'll eventually be able to tank. I'm questioning whether their later game will truly make up for early game fail, which is going up against a unit whose whole point is to be utility. Having a poor early game is looking very bad against a unit like Etzel.

[Colonel M]

How is their earlygame "poor"? Just because they're normally supposed to tank but they can't, that means they automatically fail? If that's the case, then you'd have to consider dropping a unit such as Darros down due to this argument that has been made.

Their earlygame is not "poor" if they're doing about the same in terms to the team. They're being 2RKOed, they still have ways of chip damage (Javelins as well), and there are instances where they can take an extra hit. They're not "Oswin-tough", but they're still decent and by midgame (a.k.a. promotion) anything that involves "failing" at tanking ends thereafter. If you're considering utility, then consider being able to take a 3RKO sometimes against units like Archers or dangerous units such as Horseman and being able to tank at least by midgame, then being able to take an early promotion and barely become a detriment if you ever had second thoughts of the AKs being one.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

Alright. I can't argue with this... Mov is the only thing that's worse, but enemies tend to slow down the player anyway.

[Colonel M]

Alright. I can't argue with this... Mov is the only thing that's worse, but enemies tend to slow down the player anyway.

Don't feel bad about being skeptical, because I too was at first with Armor Knight!Darros.

[Rodykitty]

I am skeptical because of cookie cutter arguments that basically amount to, "Hey, this unit can go AK, AUTO-RISE."

[Colonel M]

I am skeptical because of cookie cutter arguments that basically amount to, "Hey, this unit can go AK, AUTO-RISE."

Mainly it goes to show how Def still isn't something that is totally "unique". It's definitely something to brag, but in truthness not totally unique as though out to be. Some benefit better from Hunter -> General anyway (Dolph for example) and others don't terribly fail with the set-up, thus being a failsafe option to have in mind.

I'd only argue AK -> General setups to those that come around C1-4. Anything beyond that I'd have second thoughts on and would rather recommend Hunter -> General if possible, or a mixture of Hunter and Armor Knight if applicable. Trust me: General!Astoria still sucks (lawl). Kind of shows how much more broken the Brute class is.

Generals are a powerful class in this game. DracoKnights aren't bad with WTA and the right setup. Durability is something that should be valued a bit higher in other games but "ohnoes 100% Avoid" gets in the way. Wish other tier lists were more like this: values durability a bit more, the unit's strengths in general, and nothing stupid to argue like supports. Then there's utility which often gets shafted in some tier lists.

Edited July 9, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

It's not so much defense being unique as much as I needed proof that AK's are able to function before getting the Defense they need to break the game.

[Colonel M]

It's not so much defense being unique as much as I needed proof that AK's are able to function before getting the Defense they need to break the game.

Well, today I have at least given you some sufficient proof to it. For the most part, I hope. As I've said, this setup can only slip away for units that join early on and have the time to build it up. Rest should consider Hunter if possible (or in Kashim's case Hunter being better in most cases) or, again, using a mixture if applicable (Roger doesn't do so badly with this since he at least starts with D in Lances). I wouldn't argue the latter in a tier list because of that though (semi-class juggling).

Edited July 9, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

I wouldnt say AK makes you much good unless you have some innate DEF growth.

[Dat Nick]

Wait, what exactly makes Radd better than Ymir?

[RPG]

Wait, what exactly makes Radd better than Ymir?

I'm guessing that it has to do with Radd joining when enemies are somewhat easy, and he has potential.

[Dat Nick]

I'm guessing that it has to do with Radd joining when enemies are somewhat easy

...lol

[RPG]

Well...at least they're not promoted yet.

[Dat Nick]

who cares if they're not promoted yet? Your team isn't either. They're underlevelled and they're going to get ripped up pretty soundly. Hell, Radd himself is OHKd by just about every damned thing on the map.