H5 Tier list topic

[Rodykitty]

Hell, axes are the reason Minerva's in upper mid.

I'm pretty sure people beat me with the fact it was Sniper.

In fact, I recall you yourself downplaying her axe utility. Contradicting much?

Yeah, because Ymir as you can see is not the sole user of that weapon.

And Etzel is not the sole user of Excalibur.

The difference here is that Ymir is not solely reliant on rare weapons to do damage. He's not gimped by Poleaxes going to other characters. A Silver Axe is only 4 less Mt than Hautclere, and bows allow him to have, while not as powerful as Excalibur since he is not likely to get past C in bows, utility against the DKs you boast about it.

In actuality, Poleaxes are in much less demand than Excalibur. Excalibur has to be traded around for all characters to use it, while multiple Poleaxes will help free up character turns to whoever they are given to. Efficiency is more valuable than the Pole axes themselves.

[Dat Nick]

I was going to go in a huge detailed post about how overrated Ogma is due to his very meh lategame despite his epic earlygame by comparing him to Dolph, but then I saw there was a much easier way to do it.

clicky

At 20/11 his only real win on a base level Hero Ymir is 9 HP or something 2 spd, and 2 str. [Does that even amount to an extra hit? too lazy to check]. Ymir is low maintenance, can gain levels himself to minimize Ogma's stat wins even further, and while he isn't there while Ogma is being epic, I don't think this justifies a three tier gap at all.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Norton Says What?

[Rodykitty]

People stopped overrating Oguma a long time ago. He's fine where he is.

EDIT: It only means Ymir will be rising. He could probably end up somewhere near the endgamers.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Chainey

[grandjackal]

People stopped overrating Oguma a long time ago. He's fine where he is.

You really think Ymir's worse than Matthis? I could see him above Jeorge, or at least in his general area.

...Etzel of course will be rising with him ;;>>

[Rodykitty]

Read my edit.

[Dat Nick]

i got ninjad

I'm still aiming for Ogma down since I ran some numbers on him vs Dolph and they were turning out VERY much in Dolph's favor, but I'll save it for another day.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Norton Says What?

[grandjackal]

So him vs Jeorge. Would we value early-midgame instant utility more than lategame instant utility, of which the former is your best archer at the time while the latter is comparable to someone who's currently in high during his time?

If we value early-mid more, then Ymir below Jeorge. If vice versa, Jeorge below Ymir.

[Rodykitty]

I saw your edit.

Most characters in high tier aren't doubling kings, so he fits in. High tier doesn't really mean high tier anymore on H5, since Abel & Kain start off pretty meh.

Oguma also not only has early game utility, but most of the game on Ymir.

Oguma's position is controversial, but if he drops, it's sure to be because of the characters surrounding him and not huge changes.

So him vs Jeorge. Would we value early-midgame instant utility more than lategame instant utility, of which the former is your best archer at the time while the latter is comparable to someone who's currently in high during his time?

If we value early-mid more, then Ymir below Jeorge. If vice versa, Jeorge below Ymir.

We value whoever is doing more, which may be Ymir.

[grandjackal]

Well any braver with 27 ATK is one rounding George even at max level, just to measure his use, AND he needs Parthia to down them. Not to mention for the most part, his offense is more based on his weapon than his strength, which slowly dies down as time marches on.

Then Ymir shows up and goes "Hi, I'm Ogma without training", and Ogma at best is only surviving a 3rd brave strike, of which the 4rth kills him regardless so both get 2RKOd. Ymir just needs a level, and it's the same case with him. 10 base crit ain't bad either.

Give Ymir a speed wing as a warrior, and he's virtually more effective than a hero as now he's got bows. Same speedwing as a hero, he doubles paladins. Just to give you a scope. Otherwise, 5 levels does the same.

Give a stat booster to Jeorge. Angelic Robe. Only thing that helps him, as a power drop doesn't help him OHKO dracos with anything weaker, speed wing helps him double, but while Ymir can get that speed naturally, George NEEDS it to double common enemies. Dracoshield still gets him killed. Other stat boosters are wastes of time. However, he needs a stat booster just to not get murdered, while Ymir doesn't even need it, just appreciates it. I know stat boosters are not thought of here, but...it was just to give a scope.

So yeah, I don't think George's early-mid utlity of doing slightly greater chip damage than other archers outdoing being an actually competent unit.

[Rodykitty]

I know stat boosters are not thought of here, but...it was just to give a scope.

Well, at least you didn't use favortism to argue for George, but against him. Very sad on his part.

Though the question is not who is doing more in endgame. It's who is doing more in their 'respective times.'

Is Jeorge doing better in the mid-game, or is Ymir doing better in the late game? It has to be this comparison, otherwise comparing at the same part of the game is unfair to them since it's very unlikely for them to coexist.

[grandjackal]

Well, at least you didn't use favortism to argue for George, but against him. Very sad on his part.

Though the question is not who is doing more in endgame. It's who is doing more in their 'respective times.'

Is Jeorge doing better in the mid-game, or is Ymir doing better in the late game? It has to be this comparison, otherwise comparing at the same part of the game is unfair to them since it's very unlikely for them to coexist.

Level 8 Kashim has the same strength as base George. Neither are doubling, and George needs 5 of his slowly gained levels to start doubling just cavs. I rest my case.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Rodykitty]

All that tells me is Kashim is better.

[Colonel M]

Before we spike Ymir, should we figure out where to place Bord first?

[Rodykitty]

I'll just put Ymir above Bord.

[grandjackal]

All that tells me is Kashim is better.

Kashim at that point is also not that impressive and is being beaten by a lot of his friends up there. George to his team is not impressive.

Ymir when he shows up however is tieing someone in high tier at his time.

To give a scope.

If Castor's at level 13 by the time George shows up, Jeorge is doing 2 more damage with silver than Castor is with STEEL. Castor by then has to be well on his way to B rank as well. Once he hits B rank, Castor's beating George. Neither are doubling, but they have the same growth. By then, Castor's losing by 2 speed, but leveling more than twice as fast. He'll hit 14 AS before George.

You suck if you're comparing to people 10 levels under you.

[Colonel M]

You suck if you're comparing to people 10 levels under you.

Jeigan would like to speak with you. NAO.

I'll just put Ymir above Bord.

Except I don't find this the solution because I find Bord beating every single one of these schmups and can easily snug under Nagi / Gotoh. Unless we're saying Ymir is better than Bord...

[grandjackal]

Jeigan would like to speak with you. NAO.

Yes, because units are tieing him in usefulness at his start...

[Dr. Tarrasque]

To give a scope.

If Castor's at level 13 by the time George shows up, Jeorge is doing 2 more damage with silver than Castor is with STEEL. Castor by then has to be well on his way to B rank as well. Once he hits B rank, Castor's beating George. Neither are doubling, but they have the same growth. By then, Castor's losing by 2 speed, but leveling more than twice as fast. He'll hit 14 AS before George.

You suck if you're comparing to people 10 levels under you.

To give a scope.

If several other units of the same class set at level promoted and who gives a fuck by the time Ymir shows up, Ymir is doing less damage than several of them. By then, Ymir's losing in SPD to most people and pretty much has to go Hero in order to avoid being doubled but that nukes his ability to use Silver Axe so he's stuck with PoleAxes for good damage.

You suck if you're dependent on a very limited and wanted weapon to do much damage and avoid getting doubled at time where your army is greater in power as opposed to Jeorge's time where you know, no1 has promoted yet since the first Master Seal is obtainable at C10's end?

Point being, they're both comparable to some units in your army at that point, k that's all well and good but the difference in their power relative to your army at the time they show up is quite different. Jeorge's time, your army is weak and struggles a lot. In Ymir's time, yeah they get a bit hard if they're not generals but you sure as hell don't have to use like 2-3 units to take out 1 single enemy.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Sirius

[grandjackal]

To give a scope.

How original of you.

If several other units of the same class set at level promoted and who gives a fuck by the time Ymir shows up, Ymir is doing less damage than several of them. By then, Ymir's losing in SPD to most people and pretty much has to go Hero in order to avoid being doubled but that nukes his ability to use Silver Axe so he's stuck with PoleAxes for good damage.

Oh no, choosing a different class! Something he can do to become more useful, something George can't do! D :

...Now why is it a problem he'd be using a pole-ax? He can still use it, why would he care about silver?

You suck if you're dependent on a very limited and wanted weapon to do much damage and avoid getting doubled at time where your army is greater in power as opposed to Jeorge's time where you know, no1 has promoted yet since the first Master Seal is obtainable at C10's end?

Either Ogma should drop then...

Or this statement is BS, because if you're comparing to someone unpromoted then master seal does not enter the equation. Someone 7 levels off from promotion no less...

Point being, they're both comparable to some units in your army at that point, k that's all well and good but the difference in their power relative to your army at the time they show up is quite different. Jeorge's time, your army is weak and struggles a lot. In Ymir's time, yeah they get a bit hard if they're not generals but you sure as hell don't have to use like 2-3 units to take out 1 single enemy.

Yet Jeorge isn't helping much at all, considering he's offensively the same as one of said struggling units. The point is Ymir can slip easily into your army as he's comparable to some of your higher ups. He fits easily with a group that is his peer at his time. George on the other hand slips into an army of unrpomotes who actually manage to be better than him and he doesn't grow into anything good, or remotely usable later. His chip damage means dick when others are doing comparable chip regardless. Competent fighter or incompetent chipper? hmmm...

[Colonel M]

Kind of a joke and shits and giggles, but I found Gordon! I mean, what he was supposed to be:

20/1 Cavalier -> DracoKnight!Merric:

39.0 HP | 10.7 Str | 1.4 Mag | 17.4 Skl | 16.7 Spd | 11.5 Luck | 18.3 Def | 4.1 Res

No, I wouldn't use this seriously (11 Str? Uh...), but at least he's got AS unlike Gordon!

It's a play on Myrmidion!Elice, get over it.

It's not really a joke, more "crazy" than a "joke". Interesting nevertheless.

EDIT: New argument: Est > Est Fanboys that try to argue her higher up the Tier lists after seeing This

Edited July 11, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

Keep in mind that the setup Norton posted is one that gimps Oguma's speed.

[Dat Nick]

I thought it was generally agreed Ogma wanted to be a fighter?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

How original of you.

I don't really care about their positions. Just throwing out how most of what you've said applies to Ymir but worse.

Oh no, choosing a different class! Something he can do to become more useful, something George can't do! D :

...Now why is it a problem he'd be using a pole-ax? He can still use it, why would he care about silver?

Just a while ago you were arguing that him using a PoleAxe was an issue while trying to make Excalibur for Etzel look like it was nothing. No Silver means Steel Axe for other enemies. Not really much of an issue but it's certainly something to consider.

Either Ogma should drop then...

Or this statement is BS, because if you're comparing to someone unpromoted then master seal does not enter the equation. Someone 7 levels off from promotion no less...

I don't see Ogma dropping atm, those saying he should drop are underrating his earlygame as well as assuming that his lategame is terrible and it isn't. Yes he's surpassed by other units later in the game but you talk as if he never surpassed any1 at some point in the game.

I'm comparing Jeorge's situation relative to the army at the time as well as the same for Ymir.

Yet Jeorge isn't helping much at all, considering he's offensively the same as one of said struggling units. The point is Ymir can slip easily into your army as he's comparable to some of your higher ups. He fits easily with a group that is his peer at his time. George on the other hand slips into an army of unrpomotes who actually manage to be better than him and he doesn't grow into anything good, or remotely usable later. His chip damage means dick when others are doing comparable chip regardless. Competent fighter or incompetent chipper? hmmm...

And Ymir really is? He's just a filler at a time where your army can be quite powerful enough offensively and only lacking in defense in most non-general units. At the time Jeorge is around, even Wolf and Sedgar aren't immortal yet and there's very few (if any) instances where your units can 1 round any enemy at the time.

@BB: Actually it's better for him to stay Merc for the most part. Fighter is really only suggested to build up his Axe rank in piss easy chapters such as 12x and if he's got SPD blessed or something, you can switch to Fighter whenever you feel like it.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Sirius

[Colonel M]

I thought it was generally agreed Ogma wanted to be a fighter?

I'd just toss the Arms Scroll than throw him into Fighter and make him worse. Or simply stick with Iron Axes.

EDIT: Chainey best describes Cavalier!Merric.

Social Knight!Merric is amazing, weird, quirky, even downright trendy.

Though no one cares about this setup but maybe me and it's shockingness.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

I don't see Ogma dropping atm, those saying he should drop are underrating his earlygame as well as assuming that his earlygame is terrible and it isn't

The fuck?

If you're going to argue against my argument, argue against shit I actually said. Not ONCE have I denied that Ogma has an excellent earlygame [i don't know HOW the hell you saw "terrible"] But that's just it. His latergame really is bad, it really, really, is. Wanna know what my Dolph comparision bought up? Dolph as base level fighter was beating 20/0 Mostly Ogma fighter in AS. Not taking into account Dolph's fast levelling speed, He was going to get washed up quickly. How quickly? Here's the hilarious part. Once they both hit promotion, Fighter>Berserker Dolph ties Fighter>Hero Ogma. And all Dolph has to do is reclass to Hero to totally lol in Ogma's face.

Nobody's saying Ogma's earlygame isn't great [don't know how the fuck you got that one] but far too much weight is being placed on it and not enough is placed onto his bad latergame.