Dat Nick Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) I thought you said that Theif utility>Arran. And since Arran's not moving into lol tier.... Edited July 12, 2009 by Norton Says What? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted July 12, 2009 Author Share Posted July 12, 2009 Ah, that's right. I can just tell anybody that asks, "Seriously, this isn't bias. We just couldn't figure out who to put in Est's tier. We actually tried" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Anyway...somewhere in low seems more accurate for Mac, seeing all the suck he has to put up with pre-promotion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted July 12, 2009 Author Share Posted July 12, 2009 I'll put him above... Radd... For now, until we can figure out where exactly he can go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) Sounds good to me. Another offensive mage is better than anything Raddy does. EDIT: Scratch that. Roshea's at least got ways to be of use throughout the earlygame and can end up at least a decent Swordmaster, and Radd should be starting to get into good mode by the time Mac shows up. Boah's got instant usability, while Mac doesn't. Just above Elice sounds good. Edited July 12, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted July 12, 2009 Author Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) Raddy is probably making a better Mage, considering better jointime. I'm tiering him based on Fighter -> Hero. Maybe Radd can go above him still, we'll see.\ EDIT: Put him below Roshe. Edited July 12, 2009 by Chainey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) Raddy is probably making a better Mage, considering better jointime.I'm tiering him based on Fighter -> Hero. Maybe Radd can go above him still, we'll see.\ EDIT: Put him below Roshe. As a fighter, he's easily 1HKOd by anything with 27 ATK. He needs to be level 7 just to avoid that, and then there are 28 ATK enemies to consider, who still OHKO him. He's also not doubling anything till about level...15. Then you have to consider how much safer being a mage is. Nothing really changes, he's still only good once he promotes. Difference is, it's better to be offensive at range with magic. On top of that, he has staffs. It's hard to level up someone at melee who gets OHKOd constantly. Just ask Est. Mac has it even worse though, as a fighter he has no axe rank, he's stuck with E axes, weak-ass iron. Speaking of safety, I suppose Est going mage isn't a bad idea, considering she's fucked if she whiffs a shot... Actually, did anyone think of promoting Est early? Edited July 12, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 I thought of promoting Est early. It doesn't work very well. Lorenz > Arran would be because Lorenz at least can attack indirectly with a Silver Bow. That's all I can really think of because all his other class options S.U.C.K. So to explain Mac's overrated OHKOes, let's actually look at 12X and the Atk #s: Archers - 19 Cavs and Armors - 23 Mages - 21 and 22 Mamkute - Concede to. Duh Sniper - 25 Atk Dejanira - 25 Atk Pirates - Not sure but to be on the safe side we'll say 23-25. I don't see Mac being OHKOed except by the Mages. He has 22 HP / 4 Def. Yes I know that's freaking terrible, but other than the Mamkute and the high-end Mages, no one is OHKOing him here. Not even the Sniper nor the Boss do. Then C13. Say he gained three levels. Now he has about 24 HP / 4 Def. Now the Quick Rains can't even OHKO him. Gigash can OHKO him, but keeping a fair distance is key with these guys. C13 is hell for just about anyone. C14. I'll only give him 1 more level, which brings his HP to about 25 HP / 4 Def. It takes 29 Atk just to OHKO him, which no one reaches (WTD for Armors and Jiol subtract 2 Atk). Nevermind that he has access to a Hand Axe by now (or should've beforehand). And from there on I don't think I need to say a whole lot more. Midia is still 2RKOed except when she's under really, REALLY low Atk numbers, but keep in mind she's a promoted unit and in the Sniper class, hence she cannot deliver a counterattack in the first place. Trust me: if we're going to gimp Mac because of durability, please check numbers on the enemy's Atk and relativity to the team before we thrash him. I understand that sometimes people in the Gaiden chapters face 3RKOes, but after that it's back to 2RKOes barring promoted units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 I still say it's safer he go dark mage... ...Anyways, you say you promoted Est and it didn't work out so well? Promiting level 10, 25 HP, 13 Def. Pretty much the bare minimum you need to survive a brave assault of 27 ATK if you have axes. Her Str is 11-12, but do note that she at least has silver spears by now, and that it goes up just fine. Still iffy use, but considering how much exp she gets per kill, and that she only needs 5 levels for bare minimum...You could always wait till 13 so she's doubling things with 12 AS, which is always fine and dandy. Would also help her get durability quicker, now with 10% more HP and defensive use of axes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) I still say it's safer he go dark mage... The problem(s) with Dark Mage are simply low Atk for a while until your tome rank boosts up, and even then Mac can't even double; the Fighter has a good chance. In fact, DM Mac can't EVEN double unpromoted units until after promotion and about a level or 2 later. That's not very good. Now he's doomed to heal for the most part and once in a while chip healing. With Fighter, he can't always double. That I'll admit. Some units still struggle to double when they're unpromoted. Take Barst, who just barely doubles by Level 20/0, which is really shaky in AS numbers. Eventually Mac will double as a Fighter (a bit later on) but until then he can chuck something like Hand Axes. To compare, Vyland here can't double much before promotion either. In fact, he too is very borderline on it. 20/0 averages 13.6 Spd. I'm not sure on the Est issue then. @Cap: If you are unhappy with the tier list, you have two options: 1) Argue characters higher or lower 2) Write a Letter to Mr. Obama I don't recommend the latter. Edited July 12, 2009 by Colonel M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted July 12, 2009 Author Share Posted July 12, 2009 We should tier generics by class (meaning individual tier slots called Generic Swordmaster, Generic Sniper, etc), since like it or not, they actually play a role in this game. Pros: - Immortal. Kill one, you get another. There is no "gone forever". Thus, they make great lures. - Financial blessing. They come with weapons that you can just take off of them. In fact, this may water down Thief utility even more. Cons: - Random classes? - Crappy stats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 imho, generic usefulness, in corresponding order: General Bishop Sage Warrior Sniper Horseman Draco Paladin Hero Swordmaster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted July 12, 2009 Author Share Posted July 12, 2009 Alright, as a start I added these dudes to the tier list as "Mid Tier", and if it's possible for them to scatter around named units, then we can do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 You forgot Berserker. Well, Heroes are pretty low but at least the Warriors / Zerkers can simply reclass to Heroes (just not beforehand lol). We should really look at where we can put Big Mac, because I even question him in Low tier myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Another pro to generics - No need to heal them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted July 12, 2009 Author Share Posted July 12, 2009 Another pro to generics- No need to heal them, but you can for EXP Fixed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 It's not like healing them is a total waste either: Letting them be meatsheilds for longer doesn't hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted July 12, 2009 Author Share Posted July 12, 2009 Definitely. Can help if you're using more than one healer as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 As I said: the list is still missing Berserker. >_>; Unless it was done on purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted July 12, 2009 Author Share Posted July 12, 2009 Where should Beserker be placed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 (edited) Either above or below Warrior. They're usually the same anyway, so even a slash would work. Quick question: Hunter -> General Doga, did we ever decide on it being good? I was thinking of adding that route in the Rating Topic but it slipped my mind. Edited July 12, 2009 by Colonel M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Either above or below Warrior. They're usually the same anyway, That's kind of why I left them off. You could reclass one into the other and have virtually the same results :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 I don't think it was even brought up. Lessee... Starts doubling level...wow, 9. 9 strength isn't too bad considering. Durability is meh, but you shouldn't have an archer get attacked anyways.Level 15 he can survive a 28 ATK silver shot regardless, so it's not that bad. Then promotion rolls in, and is doubling with most likely C lances, while needing 4 shots of 28 ATK silver to down him...which is rather impressive ;;>> Level 20/7, he can take 2 and a half brave assaults. Even doubling lategame paladins, and coming damn close to doubling dracos, not that it's hard to kill them regardless with bows. Overall...This is actually a pretty monsterous build. Nowhere near as monsterously offensive as pirate/fighter->berserker build (lol, doubling Camus), but it's certainly a lot more defensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 I'd simply slip the Hunter -> General build inbetween the Dark Mage and Fighter build. I think it's a decent build myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 I actually like this one much better than his fighter build. Offense without getting owned [a problem due to Draug's defense being locked at 3 until promotion] due to not taking counters as well as superior speed is hard to argue against. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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