Rodykitty Posted July 23, 2009 Author Share Posted July 23, 2009 And... For the first time in history... Support options in FEDS affect a tier placement. Jake > Beck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Alright... I'm going to bring something up, and I bet some (or many, or even all of you) will disagree with. So, here goes: Chainey < Barst and Cord. I understand that Chainey is useful when the team comes around (and tbh I find Dancers / Chameleons slightly overrated); however, does Chainey really beat out Barst and Cord when they're helping out for the vast majority of the game? I don't think so, but I guess others would. *Prepares flame shield*. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted July 23, 2009 Author Share Posted July 23, 2009 (edited) The only characters Chainey truly beats out are characters that join after him. His position is based on being a lesser Zagaro/Wolf. I also value the fact that he's never a detriment, ever. Edited July 23, 2009 by Chainey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_____ Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 I'm not arguing Beck > Jake, but I still have a few problems with your arguments... [And it would be seriously sandbagging Jake to not think at LEAST two would usually be in play] It's not in the least unreasonable to think that Linde and Maria won't be played, and then you have to consider the fact that the only thing Lena is good for is Warp and the occasional Psychic. Sure, Sheeda's pretty likely to be played, but the others aren't exactly the most reliable ever. And I still have no idea what the fuck Minerva's doing in Upper Mid, but I guess she's kind of likely to be played. Anyway, it's also highly likely that these supports won't even be in range of Jake, since he's just sitting back, shooting the place up, while everyone else is off fighting. Hit that doesn't rely on supports > supports. then we consider that Jake can gain one or two levels pre-Beckage and now he's winning. Then there's Jake's positive utility for a few chapters Beck doesn't have You're seriously overestimating Jake's worth prior to Beck joining. Chapter 11: lol Chapter 12: I guess he can shoot the reinforcements that come from the start. Chapter 12x: You're mostly pushing forward, and Jake will be exposed to the pirates later on. Chapter 13: See below. [And Beck doesn't get any brownie points at all for Thunderbolt in C13 because he can just throw it to Jake, who can rape shooters and NOT be restricted to cliffs] If you want to waste somebody's turn trading it to him. I don't see how it isn't more efficient just to keep it on Beck. Jake won't exactly be doing good damage with Arrowspate, either, if it even has any uses left. No, seriously, I don't get Minerva being so high. I mean, if she's going Sniper, why is she above Jeorge, who comes 2 chapters earlier and with a B in Bows? OK, she has 2 more speed than him, but they also have the same speed growth. I don't get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted July 23, 2009 Author Share Posted July 23, 2009 It's not in the least unreasonable to think that Linde and Maria won't be playedStopped reading here.*goes back to his newspaper* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_____ Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Stopped reading here.*goes back to his newspaper* Low and Bottom suddenly means that they're always going to be played? All strategies and comparisons for Chapter 18 on must include the likes of Est, guys, or else Chainey won't consider it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted July 23, 2009 Author Share Posted July 23, 2009 For those tuning in, the debate you were about to witness happened was resolved on MSN. Jake will remain > Beck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 I also value the fact that he's never a detriment, ever. That's true, but with Barst being one of your best units from the get-go and Cord being forced for his worst chapters anyway, you can't really say they're ever really being detriments at any point, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted July 24, 2009 Author Share Posted July 24, 2009 That's good enough for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 With that logic, I think Zag and Wolf should actually dro- *is shot at* COOL IT FOR A SEC OK!? At first, they are indeed a detriment. Just like anyone else, but everyone else can become useful under the same circumstances. Barst and Cord have two things on them, earlier chapters (most notably Barst with the Devil Axe on Renard), and offense (Cord). Sure, Wolf and Zag become hard to kill eventually, but then there are still some troublesome maps, notably the magic chapters Khadein and Helltower. On top of that, they'll be doubling sooner anyways due to leveling speed (most notably Cord), and Barst will generally become very well-rounded. Being godly is great and all, but being invincible didn't stop Darros from just being upper mid. These two lack offense for a good while, and these two will beat them there anyways. Being hard to kill is great, but so is being pretty tough to kill AND having offense on top of it as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Just pretend italics = quote for now: No, seriously, I don't get Minerva being so high. I mean, if she's going Sniper, why is she above Jeorge, who comes 2 chapters earlier and with a B in Bows? OK, she has 2 more speed than him, but they also have the same speed growth. I don't get it. I guess I could see Jeorge reach the point of that part of the list. It's just a matter of how valuable his utility really is. Personally I find it valuable, but Minerva also has a slight edge being useful lategame if she's trained up. Jeorge needs Parthia to keep going (I've checked this) and he does need some buildup in order to double. Also looking into this: Midia has a pretty good Spd count as a Sniper, but that Str falters her up so much that I don't know how much I want to actually argue it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 (edited) George is also missing 2 AS, that 2 AS allowing Minerva to double. Considering she'd probably get a rank up faster than he could get 2 speed, her offense will ALWAYS be better than his. Then factor in after she gets a bit more speed, she can switch back to draco with the A axes, effectively letting her chose between 2 classes as she pleases, while George would have to work harder for said speed as a Draco AND build up axe rank. George is fine being a tier apart. EDIT: Uhhh, Colonel? That's what Midia is assumed to be as is ;;>> Edited July 24, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel M Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 I meant as far as her going up on the tier list. Just don't see how great of an argument that could be brought up for her except very minor utility, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 (edited) I don't think you're going to get her out of bottom anytime soon. Her str just sucks way too bad. She's terrible even as Sniper. Just not as terrible as certian others. also, this alone should crumble Wolf's entire argument: Being godly is great and all, but being invincible didn't stop Darros from just being upper mid. You're right. What kept Darros from going higher than just Upper Mid was the fact that it sucked getting him there. Also, mages don't bug Z&W more than anybody else since they're able to avoid doubles by the time mages become prominent [i.e C15] Edited July 24, 2009 by Norton Sez What? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted July 25, 2009 Share Posted July 25, 2009 Hrm...Bord vs Julian? It's a case of having an awesome earlygame [bord is very comparable to Barst at the early stages, is probably better due to starting with extra accuracy thanks to C axes, and it takes a while for his growths to bone him over, too] vs Julian...never really sticking out at any point in the game, and being especially bad earlygame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted July 27, 2009 Author Share Posted July 27, 2009 If anybody objects to Bord rising, speak up now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Depends how you measure Bord's ok earlygame, great midgame and terrible endgame compared to Julian's bleh earlygame, good midgame and fantastic lategame. Personally, I object, but...today's got my mind zapped x.x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_____ Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Sorry to say this every time someone brings up a change (you guys discuss way too many routes; it might be easier to just put the recommended route next to the character's name, which I know won't happen, but still), but is this still Hunter -> General Bord, or have we moved onto something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Depends how you measure Bord's ok earlygame, great midgame and terrible endgame compared to Julian's bleh earlygame, good midgame and fantastic lategame. "ok" Earlygame? It's a rather great earlygame, by far his best point. Not ONLY is he forced, meaning he isn't taking up a unit slot, he's very comparable to Barst, who is absolute pwnage earlygame. Also, Bord can actually maintain some midgame usefulness as fighter: Most of what doubles him doubles everybody else [such as pegs] It's also worth mentioning that his offense also goes from "good" to "better" due to 55% STR growth, and his hit improves pretty fast. It's also worth mentioning that he's only 30 rounds of combat away from B Axes, which would give him a nice accuracy boost at a pretty decent speed. Second...where the hell are you getting "Fantastic" from? getting 2 rounded and not even 2 rounding most stuff back with no 1-2 range to account for it is "fantastic", now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Forgot about how close he is to silver axe use...Fine then, conceeded, considering you actually get a silver axe pretty early. As for fantastic earlygame, I was referring to Devil Sword, and he being the best unit for it aside from possibly Roger or Navarre. With it, he can actually on average smoke a wyvern knight, and his speed can double heroes. Basically, with this weapon he becomes an assassin if assassins didn't suck. But either way, it can't compare to early rank Acc and silver axe use. Perhaps Bord's earlygame is not to be underestimated ;;>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted July 28, 2009 Author Share Posted July 28, 2009 (edited) Sorry to say this every time someone brings up a change (you guys discuss way too many routes; it might be easier to just put the recommended route next to the character's name, which I know won't happen, but still), but is this still Hunter -> General Bord, or have we moved onto something else? It's gotten to the point where multiple routes are taken into account now. Either that or I've stopped caring and am rising him on the grounds that Bord is simply better. As for fantastic earlygame, I was referring to Devil Sword, and he being the best unit for it aside from possibly Roger or Navarre. With it, he can actually on average smoke a wyvern knight, and his speed can double heroes. Basically, with this weapon he becomes an assassin if assassins didn't suck. But either way, it can't compare to early rank Acc and silver axe use. Perhaps Bord's earlygame is not to be underestimated ;;>>Bord gets .Anyway, rising Bord. Also, I can see Bord going above Jeorge for the same reason Kashim rose above Jeorge. Superior chip damage with even a Steel Bow, but now has utility on top of that. Edited July 28, 2009 by Chainey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 (edited) Which would make Bord REALLY hard pressed to be doubled, as well... Alright, no objections. EDIT: Actually, here's an idea: I could see generic generals in High tier just for sheer usefulness compared to other generics. Edited July 28, 2009 by Norton Sez What? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Eh, Generic Generals "join" pretty late, and also have terrible offense and stuff, so iono about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted July 28, 2009 Share Posted July 28, 2009 Eh, Generic Generals "join" pretty late Hm? If you're referring to the time it actually takes to get a generic already at general...well, I can't really say exactly when they come as nobody really knows the variables as to what determines the generic level. and also have terrible offense and stuff, Their offense isn't that much worse than your typical generals, and it's not that much worse than your other generics that don't double, either. EDIT: Wait, did I say High? I meant bottom of Upper Mid... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodykitty Posted July 28, 2009 Author Share Posted July 28, 2009 EDIT: Wait, did I say High? I meant bottom of Upper Mid... This is what I was thinking was more realistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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