H5 Tier list topic

[Dat Nick]

Some people have been complaining about Athena being overrated, so I'll cut the bull and ask how many people think Wendell has a case for being better than her.

Speaking of Wendell...Isn't it possible that he could>Marth, as well?

[Rodykitty]

I think simply dropping Athena to Upper Mid is enough to calm the people that have claimed she is overrated, since there *is* a gap between her and Hardin (she doesn't have insta Silver Lances).

Somebody gave a case on Marth vs. Wendell. Too lazy to dig it up.

[Dat Nick]

I think simply dropping Athena to Upper Mid

Um, no it wouldn't, because she's already there.

Sirius is still complaining about her where she is.

[Rodykitty]

Um, no it wouldn't, because she's already there.

I mean that's why I made this change in the past.

Sirius is still complaining about her where she is.

Why isn't he in here, then? That would probably help, especially vs. the Upper Mid sympathizers like Colonel M. Edited July 29, 2009 by Chainey

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I'll work on that later, first tell me what class setup has moved her that high.

[Rodykitty]

Athena is pretty much a lesser version of Hardin. The reason there's a tier gap is because she can't use the Silver Lance right away.

She CAN drop, it's just that we haven't figured out any case. If Wendell does rise, he's not going to go above Upper Mid.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Chainey

[Dr. Tarrasque]

That doesn't necessarily mean she can't sink though. It doesn't matter if some characters are comparable at some point in the game, all that suggests is that one of them could move up or down and for that you have to look at the people in between... I believe that wasn't really done when she was argued. I'll try to get her at least below Wendell or perhaps around Dolph.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Sirius

[Rodykitty]

That doesn't necessarily mean she can't sink though.

Acknowledged this in an edit.

It doesn't matter if some characters are comparable at some point in the game, all that suggests is that one of them could move up or down and for that you have to look at the people in between... I believe that wasn't really done when she was argued. I'll try to get her at least below Wendell or perhaps around Dolph.

Like I said, we already tried to rearrange the characters between them, but I felt that Marth was too gimped to really justify lowering Athena below him.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Okay Wendell vs Athena, I'm assuming she's going Peg > Draco since that's what I see every time she's brought up.

Availability: Wendell's got 2.4 chapters over Athena (0.5 being C5, C6 would be 1.0 and C6x would make 0.9 since Athena's around at pretty much the very end). Wendell wins this.

Durability: Both are pretty much 2 rounded by most enemies and at lvl 3, Wendell has 22.8 HP. I've seen Sedgar and Wolf at lvl 6 by chapter 10 so Lvl 5 Wendell by that point sure isn't unlikely since he's got combat and healing as well being your best boss killer. At lvl 6, he has the HP to prevent 28 ATK from killing him in 1 shot... never mind the fact that this so damn uncommon in the early and midgame that only bosses and 1 General in C12 reach this (not counting Mamkutes of course) and it doesn't show up again until C16. Athena isn't doing much better on durability since like most people, she's going down in 2 rounds. He durability lead exists only after promotion.

Offense:

Wendell with Thunder = 10 ATK that targets RES. 12 AS to begin. Blizzard shows up in Chapter 8's shop so pretty soon Wendell's going to see 12 ATK (+1 from Blizzard and +1 MAG from his growth) and then Elfire and Bolganone show up in C12 and both can be bought in C15.

Wendell with Excalibur = 17 ATK that targets RES. 12 AS as well.

He's pretty close to being the best damage output in the first few chapters he comes in.

Athena with Iron Lance = 15 ATK that targets DEF. 9 AS to begin

Athena's not doubling anything that isn't a mage or Armor (which Wendell obviously does better against) for quite a while and it isn't until lvl 20 that she can double 10 AS Cavaliers. So it's going to be a while for her to beat Wendell. Then in the lategame she's' not doubling Paladins and is stuck to just doing about half damage to their HP which is something that can be done by many others that can use a Ridersbane and her durability isn't even that much improved from her earlygame (from 2 rounded to 3 IIRC). 14 SPD at 20/1 ain't good for someone who's not a General.

Utility:

Wendell... Staves, starts with D, no trouble getting to B by the time Recover shows up and capable of using Fortify as well.

Athena... Flight..? If flight alone has any value in any chapter, Lena better get some points for this.

Costs:

Wendell... Nothing. His durability is the only thing that needs EXP and that's if you want him to do 1 range enemy phase against extremely uncommon enemies.

Athena... Master Seal and EXP like every other unpromoted unit.

So yeah... in this comparison, Wendell basically looks like the epitome of efficiency while Athena is just statistically comparable to Hardin. I don't think beating someone in the lategame after you've been beaten in the early and midgame puts you above that person when her lead isn't huge and Wendell does still have Staff utility and Excalibur for the lategame

Edited July 29, 2009 by Sirius

[Rodykitty]

I argue that if you're beating someone in the late game and you're not much of a detriment when you show up and can still perform decently, then you have a good case against someone who only has an early-mid game. Wendell beats many units in the early game, but it doesn't make him auto-top tier.

That said, Athena still has C in Swords, so she may be able to at least pull off Myrmidon with decent Str, and could become another solid Sniper. We need to prove that Athena is enough of a negative to show that Wendell's earlier leads weigh better.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I argue that if you're beating someone in the late game and you're not much of a detriment when you show up and can still perform decently, then you have a good case against someone who only has an early-mid game. Wendell beats many units in the early game, but it doesn't make him auto-top tier.

That said, Athena still has C in Swords, so she may be able to at least pull off Myrmidon with decent Str, and could become another solid Sniper. We need to prove that Athena is enough of a negative to show that Wendell's earlier leads weigh better.

So we're putting more weight on the lategame when Athena's wins lategame but Wendell isn't completely obsolete due to staff utility when Wendell had better combat AND staff utility in the lategame and midgame?

It's not that we have to prove that she's a detriment in the earlygame, it's how huge her lategame leads are compared to Wendell's earlygame and midgame.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Sirius

[Rodykitty]

No, I am saying that if one's early game is still good enough, and have a better late game, then the overall effect could possibly weigh out over having a strong early game and a weak lategame.

I don't know if Athena's early game is strong enough, but I think we should look at the overall effect. If we weighed Wendell's early game as much as we wanted to, then he would be above characters he shouldn't be.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

No, I am saying that if one's early game is still good enough, and have a better late game, then the overall effect could possibly weigh out over having a strong early game and a weak lategame.

Wendell has a better earlygame and midgame and a "good enough" lategame due to staff utility and occasional Excalibur on lured Dracos. At no cost.

[Rodykitty]

Excalibur

Able to use a bow for this purpose, etc...

Anyway, I'll wait until I hear what others say.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Able to use a bow for this purpose, etc...

While giving up Ridersbane use as well as limiting her enemy phase. Then there's the fact that she's not doubling lategame Dracos (they have 18-20 AS) anyway so the damage difference to a Draco between the 2 of them wouldn't be huge.

Let's look at the slowest and weakest Wyvern in C21:

46 (47) HP

27 atk [For javs, brave lance guy has 3 less]

103 hit [88 brave lance]

18 AS

12 (13) def

3 res

Vs 20/10 Peg/Myrm > Sniper Athena

20.9 AS

17.7 ATK

12 MT Silver Bow.

A rank in bows.

This would result in ((12 x 3) + 19.7) - 12 or 13 = 42.7 or 43.7 damage.

Vs --/16 Wendell

15 AS.

7 MAG.

13 MT Excalibur.

A in tomes.

This would result in ((13 x 3) + 9) - 3 = 45

Edited July 29, 2009 by Sirius

[Rodykitty]

I'll trade damage for not being dependent on a high value weapon that other male Mages want to use as well.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Chainey

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I'll trade damage for not being dependent on a high value weapon that other male Mages want to use as well.

At this time we have Hammerne and Starsphere so no need to worry about its uses. As for other Male Mages using it there's not many and there isn't anything stopping Wendell from trading it to a male mage that can reach the Draco when he cannot.

Parthia has more demand.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Sirius

[Rodykitty]

Parthia has more demand.

Silver Bow has far less demand, and nobody has to trade around for her to use one.

[OrangeCrush980]

Why aren't Sedgar and Xane on this list?

[Rodykitty]

Why aren't Sedgar and Xane on this list?

They are.

Xane is one of the worst localized names (so Chainey instead), and Zagaro is Sedgar, but we use Zagaro out of attachment.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Chainey

[Dat Nick]

Athena is pretty much a lesser version of Hardin.

Speaking of Hardin, I don't agree with "they're too close to create a significant gap".

C5, C6, and half of C6x Hardain wins because Athena's not there, and Hardain is good enough to contribute positively.

C7 stats:

Hardin: 25 HP, 20 ATK, 9 AS, 9 def

Athena: 25 HP, 16 ATK, 9 AS, 8 def

1-2 range and silver lance [Jagen's leftover one and the one from C5] which would boost his ATK lead by four points>Athena.

Btw, get this. Hardain's still a couple of levels behind Athena: So despite being BEHIND in stats, HARDAIN's the one who's levelling faster and thus increasing the gap further. Imagine that.

Anyway, Hardin should be hitting A rank by C8, good for an extra point of MT...

9 Hardain: 25 HP, 21 ATK, 10 AS, 9 def

11 Athena: 26 HP, 16 ATK, 10 AS, 8 def

It's the same thing pretty much: Though next chapter Athena's definitely going to get a rank up, probably mid chapter actually.

So okay, NOW they're kind of close, But keep in mind that Athena was already getting flatined by Hardain in four chapters. Now consider that Silver Lances are buyable in C8: This throws a monkey wrench in the logic of Athena being able to say she's compable to Hardin, although at least she can chuck javelins around now. The advantages of flight kind of get cancelled out by weakness to bows: So I wouldn't really say you can hype flight over Silver Lance usage that much.

When will Athena be able to use Silver...how does...C14 sound?

Improvised levels, both at 17:

Hardin: 29 HP, 12 str, 14 AS, 10 def

Athena: 28 HP, 12 str, 12 AS, 9 def

Keep in mind that Hardin has A lances and Athena doesn't: So there IS a might gap. Athena might be more comparable now, but she IS still losing every possible parameter. Besides, that 2 AS lead actually matters: Low-end cavs/archers have 10 AS. It also lets Hardin avoid doubles from the sniper and thief: which is cool.

15 Athena's obvious mobility lead would give her the win...but promoting them at 16...

Hardin 20/1: 35 HP, 15 str, 17 AS, 12 def

Athena 20/1: 35 HP, 16 str, 14 AS, 14 def

That 3 AS win may appear not to matter..but it does. Athena's 14 AS fails to double 11 AS cavs. There's also a lot of horsemen here, and while none of them can double Athena, effective damage still sucks. High end heroes can also double her: I guess that's worth mentioning.

So yeah, Hardin is clearly winning the whole game and is even owning her for a few chapters: All Athena can do is minimize the gap. If characters can be proven better than her, I see no issue with there being more characters shoved between them.

[Rodykitty]

Yeah, I created a whole tier gap awhile back to address this, where a tier gap is more significant than simply shoving a character between them.

Wendell just went above Athena. I argued so that it wouldn't be an instant win for Wendell, but it is still a win.

The main reason I have trouble dropping Athena though, is because I don't see Marth as being better.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Chainey

[Dat Nick]

Consider that Marth is there and not a detriment for six and a half whole chapters before Athena actually shows. And also consider the rapier, which only Marth can use anyway: It's worth mentioning as Athena has problems getting revved up once she joins, E Lances and all. So I think you could even go on to stretch Marth's initial win to nine chapters, maybe ten due to axes being so common in C9.

Silver Swords also become buyable right at the time Athena hits D Lances: So you've got a similar situation with Hardin, here. Heck, there's a free Silver in C4, for what it's worth.

There is the period of time Athena wins...but do take into account she has some AS issues later.

I'll go into more detail when I look at more numbers on the issue...Main point of arguing this was that Marth being better is possible.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Norton Sez What?

[Rodykitty]

Alright.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Athena < Darros.

As we all know, she's hardly doubling so for the most part her damage will be the STR difference between her and Darros and -1 due to Darros having a weapon rank lead on her by the time she shows up. Then there's the fact that Darros' STR growth is 10% greater so they'll be pretty close (he actually has a lead before promotion but Draco Knight promotion cancels it out). This is assumng all levels as Armor knight btw, if given 1 or 2 level ups as a Pirate, the STR difference will be less of course.

Lv 3 AK Darros has only 3 STR less than base Pegasus Athena and earlier C rank for Darros cuts the difference by 1. So yeah, their output is pretty close save for the enemies Athena's doubling. Then post promotion... guess who wins? They once again have ATK pretty close and Athena's still got doubling issues while Darros has 24 DEF vs 27 ATK.

I don't see why she's above him nor why any more elaboration is needed. Thoughts?