H5 Tier list topic

[Dat Nick]

That does skimp on a few things such as Darros's negative utility during his early stages as an armor, but fine by me.

[Vykan12]

Shouldn't you use the official NA names to avoid confusion? Jagen ftw :P

[Rodykitty]

I have no argument vs. Daros.

Shouldn't you use the official NA names to avoid confusion? Jagen ftw

I'll change some, though there are some I would like to keep.

[Dat Nick]

Actually, I think I have to disagree with Maria being uber low: She has bonus WEXP which means 18 uses and all systems are go for C staves. I don't get how she can be below Etzel or something when she's doing everything he's doing, way earlier.

Yes, crappy stats. Crappy stats isn't dropping Lena.

[Rodykitty]

At the time I didn't know Maria had extra WEXP (always thought she started with E), so yeah, this is actually enough to make a difference.

I am going to put her above Boah.

EDIT: Nvm Boah wins.

Edited August 3, 2009 by Rody

[Dat Nick]

Bantu being so low also puzzles me.

Let's look at the guys above him:

Midia: High spd growth cancels out with crappy base to create "meh" speed and taking a while to even get there. Also crappy strength.

Astram: He can't double. He can't hit half decently. He can't survive. He's awful. Forever.

Tomas: Yeah, he has some 10/1 utility. But all that really does is make him suck less.

Bantu can say he's useful at one point, when the game is at it's hardest and when we need him most, whereas the above three are sucking when the game's starting to get easier. I don't get how he's worse than any of these three. Heck, I don't know what he's doing in bottom to begin with: He's a utility character with some length of use. Bottom implies he's far more trouble than he's worth when it's the total opposite: Bantu being utility pretty much disqualifies him from being any sort of negative to the team. Once he's worn out his welcome, he's dropped and done with.

Now I'm not gonna start hyping him to Lower mid like SOMEBODY would, but he definitely needs to move up.

[grandjackal]

Could see him above Elice.

Nice to see I'm so loved around here.

[Rodykitty]

Put him in the top of low for now.

EDIT: Why not? Bottom of Low Mid. Low tier is full of gimmicky characters that have to do stupid stuff to function, which Bantu isn't one of these.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Rody

[Dat Nick]

Somebody help me find chinks in this list, because half of me wants to say they're all gone.

I'd like to hear some explanation behind Radd>Maccelan>Roshe though, Darth said he wasn't sure on the details when I asked him on IM.

[grandjackal]

Roshea should be above them both, as he can be usable early on and usable later, though never truly stellar.

Mac can be between, as while his start isn't that good, he can at least become something relevent in soon enough time.

Raddy on the other hand may end up fantastic eventually, but his bases are just so horrible to work with...

Roshea>Mac>Raddy

[Rodykitty]

Is Roshe really > Raddy? Yes, Raddy is a detriment and requires EXP feeding, but I imagine Roshe does too, but over a much longer period of time because he can only do nothing but suck with huge speed issues, and may even have to take stat boosters while Raddy only needs EXP.

Not to mention that giving them both forging isn't going to fix Roshe's doubling issues, while it can help fix Raddy's damage issues and underleveled issues.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Rody

[Dat Nick]

I'm gonna have to ask class setups before going further.

Little Mac goes Fighter>Hero, and I'm lost on the rest.

[Rodykitty]

Radd... I dunno, at first Curate sounded like a great idea, because it pretty much turns him into a sort of pre-promote... But then I realized that a few pre-promotes will join before Radd will even promote, on top of that, healers should really have D or C Staves by now to be more than just level up bots.

I personally think, because of this that Radd going some physical class before promotion shouldn't be out of the option.

Roshe... Probably another Curate -> Physical setup... And he's still never going to double anything, ever. He could go Myrmidon -> Swordmaster but then all of the problems Merc Oguma has will be magnified into this character, and having none of the advantages.

[grandjackal]

Roshe's got sort of a pseudo Myrm/Archer thing going. In the first gaiden, some axers have 8 AS, of which he could easily be trained there due to his myrm base of 12. Afterwards, he could go archer, having generally enough AS to avoid being doubled by the 8 AS cavs, and as an archer he makes a distinction of himself with his strength, since every other archer has a speed problem. He will gain a bit of speed as an archer, and at Pyarthi he goes Myrm to absolutely shitstomp Raddy due to having the speed to double by then as a Myrm. Archer again, and in the long time he exists, there are plenty of fliers about. To help build sword rank, at his start as a cav you can have him slap things with a sword. At promotion, he goes Swordmaster to generally have enough to get by on doubling with decent strength and possibly B-A swords.

Raddy would have to seriously outperform him at promotion to warrent going above Roshea, who is basically got enough to scrape by.

[Rodykitty]

Roshe is not going to be making any "distinctions with strength" with Str base as Myrmidon and passable base Str as Archer, and the fact that he comes at Ch. 5 with bases worse than Abel/Kain isn't doing him any favors. Raddy's situation is worse, but I don't see Roshe making up for it other than being heal bot or chip damage guy since they're both huge levels of suck upon joining.

At promotion, he goes Swordmaster to generally have enough to get by on doubling with decent strength

He doesn't double Paladins until 20/9, people, even trained as Archer before promotion.

Raddy would have to seriously outperform him at promotion to warrent going above Roshea, who is basically got enough to scrape by.

And look, Raddy is seriously outperforming Roshea upon promotion. Both trained as Archer (just because I'm looking at Roshe as one, so I figure I should be fair in statistical comparison) and Raddy is winning Speed (doubling Paladins at 20/1, and will actually have existing ability to double Dragon/Pegsus later on, while Roshe does this never. Wins durability with four more Def and four less HP. He is even winning Str by a point, you know that stat Roshe is supposed to be known for?)

As Archer->Sniper, Raddy has more trouble doubling, but then he'll probably only need to double Paladins anyway since bows give effective damage against Flyers anyway.

[Dat Nick]

How much of an issue is D Lances for Archer>Paladin/Draco? I'm just going over his possible options here.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

A week or two ago when I began my h5 playthrough I managed to run myself out of heals and vulneraries on chapter 2 thanks to the boss and ogma/barst refusing to crit. I redid this a few times and every time I always ended up with like 1 use on my heal staff despite having them switch places back and forth sitting on the fort. I ended up beating the boss each time after 30 something turns via bringing him down to a low amount of health then having another unit jump in and attack on player phase.

This basically forced me to use the wifi to buy a mend staff for chapter 3 since it was only one available at the time and I needed it to prevent any deaths.

My point is... if h5 forces you to use wifi like it did to me then should it not be considered allowed on the tier list. No one else but barst/ogma could have been left in range of the boss for fear of getting doubled and they refused to critical for a ridiculous amount of turns.

[Dat Nick]

Why prevent deaths? Sacrifice putzes who don't have a future. Surely you weren't planning to use ALL of them.

Second, the C3 boss is entirely beatable without wi-fi. Ogma+Killing Edge. At least that's the method I always use.

[Rodykitty]

It's perfectly possible to not need the online shop for H5, so there is no "forcing". Whether you use the online shop is entirely the player's decision.

There *was* a separate tier list for online shop, but nobody touched it.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Why prevent deaths? Sacrifice putzes who don't have a future. Surely you weren't planning to use ALL of them.

Second, the C3 boss is entirely beatable without wi-fi. Ogma+Killing Edge. At least that's the method I always use.

I meant deaths in regards to the units I was planning on using. And I did that exact strategy for the boss.

Edit: Who is playing this game from a tier perspective who doesn't possess some form of internet? I don't think people without the internet even know what a tier list is. Nor do they discuss it in real life....

Edited August 5, 2009 by Lancelot

[Dat Nick]

Internet access is not always available to people who have internet.

[Rodykitty]

There are other reasons why I don't assume Online Shop. One, not always being available, and even if it is available, you're not guaranteed the item you are assuming for the character.

Granted, stuff like Mends and keys are available every day, but then people will just say, "Well, what about stuff that's available every other day or once a week" and then I'm forced to draw lines and just cause more arguments.

[Dat Nick]

In Roshe's case, he's going to keep sucking all the way up until Radd joins no matter what. Yeah, he can double SOME [Emphasis on SOME] pirates if they hit the low end of 8 AS, but since when did doubling=good damage? He has an epic 9 ATK to his name. Yay...?

Definitely seeing Radd>Roshe, but let's wait until we get the skinny on Mac-baby before shuffling them around. Radd's low EXP level and decent amount of chapters to level up in before Mac shows is kind of making me lean to Radd, though.

EDIT: And now, for something semi-controversal.

Minerva>Catria.

C10 is kind of an "eh", but at least she's doing something, i.e Hauteclere/hammering something. Catria's not doing anything, so there's a win here, if only slight.

C11 is obvious. Doubling consistently with bows>Catria not existing

C12: the same

C12x: The same, and right around here is where she should hit Silver, making her being there and Catria not even better

C13: ya

C14: Catria gets smashed in every parameter and joins mid-chapter. Yeah.

C15: Okay, Catria might be gaining some levels, she's still getting smashed.

C16: I think it's time to go more indepth...

6 Minerva: 30 HP, 24 ATK, 16 AS, 10 def

9 Catria: 30 HP, 18 ATK, 16 AS, 9 def

I don't see her flinging around Silver yet, hence why the ATK looks low. She's still getting lolpwned due to ATK and durability leads [chip damage and all, also inb4 dondon goes on giant rant about no enemy phase]

C17: I'm more comfortable with giving Catria silver now, but she's still losing ATK so

C17x: Before anybody says Ridersbane is a boon for Catria here, do remember nothing's stopping Minerva from swapping back to Draco just for this chapter. That being said, Catria's not going to be pulling out a win over Minerva here.

C18:

10 Minerva: 32 HP, 25 ATK, 18 AS, 12 def

15 Catria: 26 HP, 25 ATK, 19 AS, 10 def [Wolf even said 13 was more realistic but what the hell, I'll just prove how epic Minerva is]

6 HP, 2 def, and no counters. That's an awful significant durability lead: I'll take it over 1 AS.

C19:

Yeah, Catria's not busting that lead in one chapter.

C20: But maybe in two? Also note that I'm REALLY being generous to Catria by bumping her to 20 in this:

18 Catria: 28 HP, 27 ATK, 20 AS, 11 def

Very slight offensive leads over Minerva here: I mean, REALLY slight. Yeah, that might double a horseman or something, but Catria gets pwned by Horsemen anyway, so it's a moot point.

C20x: Skipping to promotion here for her also may be a bit much...

12 Minerva: 32 HP, 26 ATK, 18 AS, 12 def

20/1 Catria: 33 HP, 32 ATK, 20 AS, 17 def

wow, it's about time she pulled a lead

Minerva owns Catria for a much longer timeframe than Catria owns her: Definitely seeing her>Catria.

I'm also a little iffy on some of Minerva's levels here in that they look too low: But hell, that's just further grounds to move Minerva above her.

And well, as I mentioned, I think I overstated Catria's level a few times: But that's just more reason behind Minerva>Catria.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Norton Sez What?

[grandjackal]

Let's not forget the durability leads she can pull thanks to axes and lances being the ultimate crowd control, neutralizing damage bonuses from weapon rank.

[Rodykitty]

Minerva > Katua.

Can we explain more about Macellan?