H5 Tier list topic

[Don Draper]

Nah, I also did an Athena vs. Roger comparison that did get purged.

[Colonel M]

It's Right Here.

I wrote a H5 Character Guide for a reason. >_>;

Roger - Fighter -> Hero

Dolph - Hunter -> General

[Dat Nick]

That was the one I just linked him to: Apparently he did something else that got purged.

[Colonel M]

The one you linked to was Athena and Hardin.

[Dat Nick]

....D'oh. I'm an idiot because I swear I read that as Roger.

Never mind me.

[Don Draper]

I thought I did that comparison a long time ago. Thanks for finding it. Ah well, although it shows that they're close, Athena still seems to have a lead.

[Rodykitty]

Roger < Athena.

Baby steps.

[Colonel M]

I'm trying to ponder this. Assuming Oguma hit about Level 20/8 by C20 pure Mercenary | Hero Oguma has 20.9 Spd (so 21 is a fair assumption). Pure Fighter!Oguma has 19.5 Spd. If we're allowed to mix a little, he can at least double the Paladins. All he possibly needs is the Speedwing to motivate himself. Before you ask: it's like 1.2 levels per chapter which isn't a terrible assumption since the Mercenary one can double quite often. So... if we assume just pure Mercenary at 20/8:

48.7 HP | 17.2 Str | 22.1 Skl | 20.9 Spd | 12.2 Luck | 12.6 Def | 3.0 Res

Silver Axe (I think it's safe to assume this): 31 Atk

Silver Sword: 32 Atk

Give Sheeda ~4 levels of Pegasus Knight then go to Mage. Perhaps 20/5 is a slightly safe assumption:

29.3 HP | 3.8 Str | 9.3 Mag | 16.8 Skl | 24.1 Spd | 22.7 Luck | 5.4 Def | 7.3 Res

Bolganone: 23 Atk

So let's actually pit them against a Paladin

Paladin 6:

46 HP

26 atk

94 (95) hit

16 AS

10 (11) def

7 res

Assuming that it's a Sword Pally, he does 42-44 damage. Same with a Lance Pally. Sheeda does 32 damage per hit.

In the defense situation, Sword Pallys pull a 2RKO. If it's a Lance Pally though... he can pull a 3RKO (if either Def or HP rounds up). Sheeda falls to a ORKO.

I'm thinking Oguma has a chance > Sheeda. Also will re-look into this Roger and Athena fiasco.

[Rodykitty]

Sheeda's Utility + Mage > Oguma.

You would need to try hard.

Extremely hard.

To make a convincing argument on this.

Oh, and if Oguma is somehow allowed to have a Speedwing, Sheeda is allowed to have a stat booster of her own to help aid her own problems. Maybe we want to make her durability suddenly less of an issue? Maybe we want to fix her Mag after those four levels of Peg? See, I can do it too.

Not to mention that we have all given up on Fighter Oguma anyway.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Rody

[Colonel M]

I hinted at Speedwing? *Checks*.

...K, not that he desperately needs it anyway. Still doubling, just not some units. About other stat boosters if I throw a DracoShield:

26 Atk vs. 29 HP | 7 Def: 19 damage per hit.

Seraph Robe?

36 HP | 5 Def: 21 damage per hit.

Still a ORKO.

If I didn't throw a single stat booster on Oguma there isn't any issue whatsoever.

How much of a "hard" argument must I really make about this? Oguma is almost crucial to C2 and C3 in general. Then there's C4. Assume Shiida got 4 levels then reclassed just so she has her Str point and Oguma only gets 2 levels.

Oguma - 23.8 HP | 6.8 Str | 11.8 Skl | 12.6 Spd | 3.8 Luck | 6.4 Def | 0 Res

Killing Edge - 15.8 Atk, 12.6 AS

Shiida - 17.6 HP | 0.8 Str | 2.0 Mag | 4.4 Skl | 11.4 Spd | 11.8 Luck | 4.4 Def | 3.0 Res

Fire - 7 Atk, 11.4 AS

So let's actually "review" C4.

Thieves:

25 HP

13 atk

107 hit

15 AS

1 def

or

27 HP

13 atk

108 hit

15 AS

2 def

U c what I did thar? Shiida is actually doubled by these buffons. For a ORKO. She does have that chance of surviving if the HP or Def increases at least. Oguma has no worries to this. Oguma can ORKO the former Thief, just not the latter. Shiida? 4RKO!

The Hunters 3RKO Oguma while 2RKOing Shiida.

Fighters:

33 (34) HP

19 (20) atk

100 (101) hit

10 AS

3 def

She barely slips out of a ORKO. Oguma 3RKOes while Shiida pulls a 4-5RKO!

Archer:

28 HP

18 atk [steel bow]

93 hit

8 (9) AS

6 def

Now where things get interesting: Oguma actually doubles these guys for a 2RKO while pulling off a decent chance of a crit (44%). If his Spd point rounds up he's doing even better.

Armors I concede to Shiida.

Horseman:

33 HP

14 (15) atk [...surprisngly tame]

106 hit

6 def

14 (15) AS

3 res

Same scenario: Shiida can be doubled by one of them and be ORKOed. Believe it or not Oguma gets 3RKOed. Oguma pulls a 4RKO while Shiida... 9RKOes.

Cav:

30 HP

18 atk [lance/sword] 20 atk [armorslayer]

86/102/107 hit [Armorslayer/Lance/Sword]

9 AS

7 def

This is where it gets interesting. If Oguma pulls at least a level he can double these bastards. Or if he got RNG lucky. Shiida only has 12 AS which I'll admit makes her a bit better in some scenarios. Anyway with the Spd rounded up he can pull a 3RKO and Shiida will always 5RKO.

So even though there's 1-2 range to consider, Oguma's not doing so bad offensively. Also keep in mind I slightly chocked Oguma some levels and gave Shiida some levels to have her AS stable.

Try C8 now. Oguma is about Level 13 and Shiida is about Level 11.

Oguma - 30.1 HP | 9.6 Str | 14.6 Skl | 14.7 Spd | 6.6 Luck | 7.8 Def

Silver Sword - 24 Atk, 14.7 Spd

Shiida - 19.4 HP | 0.8 Str | 4.1 Mag | 8.0 Skl | 15.9 Spd | 16.0 Luck | 4.4 Def | 3.6 Res

Fire - 10 Atk, 15.9 Spd

Blizzard - 12 Atk, 14.9 Spd

To note there's a 7 Def / Res gap (6 if they're lucky) and they all have Swords. Oguma actually ORKOes the Cavs with little problems. Oh, and if either HP or Def goes up he can be 3RKOed by them too. The Archers are about the same. So what about Armor Knights?

33 (34) HP

22 atk

93 hit

3 AS

11 (12) def

0 (1) res

Armorslayer with WTD and effective Mt bonus puts Oguma at 29 Atk. That still ORKOes these things. Finally Horseman:

34 (35) HP

17 (1 atk

97 hit

15 AS

6 def

3 (4) res

Oguma 2RKOes these things while Shiida 4-5RKOes these guys again. Also Oguma is 3-4RKOed (pending if the HP or Def gets +1).

Zoom to C10. Lv 16 Oguma vs. Level 13 Shiida.

Oguma - 32.8 HP | 10.8 Str | 15.8 Skl | 15.6 Spd | 7.8 Luck | 8.4 Def

Silver Sword - 25 Atk

Shiida - 20.0 HP | 0.8 Str | 4.8 Mag | 9.2 Skl | 17.4 Spd | 17.4 Luck | 4.4 Def | 3.8 Res

Blizzard - 12 Atk, 16.4 AS

K, review. Thieves 3RKO Oguma and 2RKO Shiida. Armors are still ORKOed by Oguma (except a Lv 7 one) and Shiida 2RKOes. Cavs are going to be tricky...

Cav 5:

33 HP

26 atk

103 hit (lance) 108 hit (sword)

9 (10) AS

8 (9) def

0 (1) res

Cav 7:

35 HP

25 atk

103 hit

10 AS

9 def

1 res

I'm thinking the Lv 7 one is a Lance user so I'm going to pretend that. Oguma 2RKOes at the very least on these guys (the third hit will KO them). Shiida 2RKOes as well, except it takes 4 hits to 2RKO the 7 Cav. Archers are ORKOed by Oguma while Shiida 2RKOes. Sniper is 3RKOed while Shiida 5RKOes. The Wyvern Knights are 4RKOed by Oguma while Shiida 5RKOes. Pegasi are 3RKOed by Oguma while Shiida 7!RKOes.

This is also ignoring the durability issues that Shiida has. 24 Atk is all it takes to ORKO her. That's accomplished by many units barring some Archers, Thieves, and some Pegasi. That's... bad. If Oguma gets +1 in either HP or Def, he can be 3RKOed by anything with 24 Atk or below, which is still a decent amount of units.

There are other things like Shiida having 1-2 range, but that doesn't mean that durability can't be ignored: Oguma isn't doing so bad with it despite being locked onto 1 range. Even though it sounds ludicrous he can still use a Levin Sword for 10 damage (assuming WTD otherwise it's about 18) on units with no Res.

Then there's promotion. Oguma doesn't mind an early promotion and neither does Shiida. Both have their advantages. For Oguma it's 1-2 range coming that much faster. For Shiida it's being able to survive a hit, use heavier tomes, and kick off with Staves. It does come with a price of losing 10% of the growth though. There's little to no drawback with Oguma since he should be roughly the same anyway other than the faster kick-in.

I might be missing something, but I can't help but feel that I have to try super hard to just find a case for Oguma beating Shiida.

[Rodykitty]

Oguma is almost crucial to C2 and C3 in general.

Which is offset by Sheeda's own utility in being able to deal huge damage to social knights in a single hit. Remember, her position is based on the combination of utility and Mage, not Mage alone. If anything, Utility is actually valued higher, Mage simply helps longevitity.

Oguma - 23.8 HP | 6.8 Str | 11.8 Skl | 12.6 Spd | 3.8 Luck | 6.4 Def | 0 Res

Killing Edge - 15.8 Atk, 12.6 AS

Shiida - 17.6 HP | 0.8 Str | 2.0 Mag | 4.4 Skl | 11.4 Spd | 11.8 Luck | 4.4 Def | 3.0 Res

Fire - 7 Atk, 11.4 AS

Yes, let's give Sheeda a common weapon and Oguma a powerful, uncommon one. If we're going to give Oguma favortism, then give Sheeda a forge, please.

Also, the fact that Sheeda has a ranged attack as Mage helps her durability.

[Colonel M]

Forge what? +10 Mt on it or something? The only unit that can use it anyway at that point is probably Navarre or... I could see reclassed Jeigan but he'd still be weighed down by it and benefits more from the Magi class or even plopping as a DracoKnight. Kain's too busy with Lances and Marth climbing to a C in 3 chapters is highly unlikely.

You're also offsetting Oguma's huge utility as well. The Wing Spear is only useful for a chapter (C2) and maybe C4 if you're gonzo enough to use it... or I guess you missed the Str point.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

Which is favortism based on "these units suck, therefore they're not allowed to use the Killing Edge". And Marth starts with a D in Swords, so that'll eventually be one more person wanting to share the thing.

The Wing Spear is only useful for a chapter (C2) and maybe C4

Uh, the Wing Spear is useful for a LOT longer than this. I should know. It has 24 Mt vs. whatever it is effective against. That's two Silver Sword hits. This isn't taking account forging the weapon either. She can usually finish off enemies with ease, or usually ORKO if you need her to.

Forge what? +10 Mt on it or something?

Something reasonable.

[Colonel M]

*Facedesk*. I forgot about Marth starting with D, not E. The point with Jeigen and Kain is they're not caring to use it anyway (Jeigan wants DracoKnight more than Swordmaster). Navarre was the only one to actually compete with it and Marth. That's about it.

I can still forge a reasonable amount with the Steel Sword too. Assume either Spd or Str gets rounded all it needs is -1 Wt and I yield more or less the same results. Or simply use a normal Steel Sword since the only thing it doubles is Archers and maybe a few other things (Cavs he'd need both the Str and Spd to round up with the -1 Mt).

Uh, the Wing Spear is useful for a LOT longer than this. I should know. It has 24 Mt vs. whatever it is effective against. That's two Silver Sword hits. This isn't taking account forging the weapon either. She can usually finish off enemies with ease, or usually ORKO if you need her to.

The problem is that you'd have to keep levels off of her. She needs as many Mage levels as possible (her Mag isn't very good, it's the doubling that helps offset it). And I know too: if I don't use Shiida in C4 I simply forge the extra Mt and let her suicide on two Cavs.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

I can still forge a reasonable amount with the Steel Sword too.

The point isn't to try to see "who gets better forges", it's to complain that one character is being given favortism and the other isn't.

[Colonel M]

I have no problem giving Shiida the forged tome. It's a matter of then it's probably tieing with Oguma then chip-damage wise. The problem is defining the "realistic" portion of it.

Oguma's still one of the best users of it anyway since Navarre needs a couple levels for his Spd to play catch-up and so does Marth. Oguma can double some things and if the Spd point happens he can double Cavs too.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

tieing with Oguma then chip-damage wise.

Which tieing is the goal here.

But are Oguma's advantages really enough to outweigh Sheeda's huge utility and eventual ability to double late game enemies with magic?

[Colonel M]

I partially showed it. Even when she is doubling some things Oguma usually wins. Dunno how much more specific I have to get but...

If he's 20/10 by C21 then he has a 50% chance of doubling many DracoKnights. If he's 20/11 it's 80%. So then she'd only have a win for... C22 I guess. I also skimped other instances such as Oguma getting the Silver Sword in C5 (and this you can barely argue him not getting it) and at that point doubling Cavs, etc.

Their utility is more or less tied, though I'd edge Oguma's since it's very crucial to the game. C2 and C3's bosses are difficult without mass suiciding (C3's at least can be chipped with Devil Axe!Barst or Bord but that's about it). Is Oguma's utility suddenly not huge enough?

Another fun fact is Oguma has some durability. 20/10 Oguma has 50.5 HP / 13 Def. Even if he didn't get an A Rank in Axes he can force some things to a 3RKO w/WTA.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

Their utility is more or less tied, though I'd edge Oguma's since it's very crucial to the game

Not really. The last time I defended Oguma Navarre was also shown to have a possibility of helping out on Ch. 3, and map saves allow for luck manipulation (because face it, we can't say that Jeigan will be hitting with his silver lances every time or that Oguma will be scoring crits he needs frequently enough for Wrys to save his healing staff uses every single time, so it's only fair to allow such a cheap method of beating these bosses since the bosses themselves are very cheap).

[Colonel M]

You could also hamper it being less efficient. Navarre needs a level up and pray for Str or Spd point in order to obtain it and the C2 boss requires some resets in order to have slightly less AS (supposedly B2BD said it can drop a point sometimes). Even if it is cheap it is being less efficient so to speak since it's expending real life time as well. Feels awkward to argue it. There are times that I'll admit the C2 boss is a bit harder than C3's since C3 let's suiciding become easier, Devil Axe is present, and then there's Killing Edge.

This also seems to be making it like an invisible obstacle in order to prevent Oguma having utility. Even if there is some random unit that can do so, he still can do it. There's no reason to deny that he can.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

It's one thing to say that Oguma has utility, it's another to say that he's crucial.

[Colonel M]

K, then utility is the more correct term for Oguma in C2 and 3. He also can be a decent damaging unit in C5 if he gets the Silver Sword. 18 Atk w/WTD and doubling Cavs.

[Rodykitty]

So can Sheeda with the Wing Spear.

[Colonel M]

So then can it be agreed on their utility is more or less tied as I've said? The reason I'm not so leniant on the Wing Spear is still due to the class option in general. That, and Wing Spear is her best weapon in the first chapters so its uses could (and I stress the word could) be limited slightly.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

Actually, no, I feel that Sheeda's utility extends beyond the early chapters, because she easily kills types of enemies that Oguma has much trouble with, and you can always buy another if you need to.

Wing Spear also means she doesn't have to be leveled up to have utility. High movement also means that she can pick her fights more safely, and retreat to get healed, or even chug a couple of vulneraries back to full HP during downtime.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Rody