H5 Tier list topic

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Uhh... Aura will probably be stronger than forges. Forged Iron Bow is only 15 Mt... Max. Aura is 18 Mt on its own and hitting Res.

Wouldn't she rather have the extra AS though? The only thing better than aura (Edit: that was worded wrong. There is lots of stuff better than aura) is doubling with aura. She would have a sucky start in exchange for having generally higher performance than she would normally for the rest of the game.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Lancelot

[Rodykitty]

Wouldn't she rather have the extra AS though?

AS?

From Archer?

Lol.

[Colonel M]

You know that Merric suffers the exact same problem right? If not worse off? He's pretty reliant on Cleric to be so high up just as Sheeda isn't high for Mage alone.

The fuck? No man. He can actually survive a hit even as a Mage. The Curate setup is better just to give the boost to his Spd growth and get working on Staves. Look, here's him severely underleveled by C10 (Level 10) as a Mage:

25.4 HP | 4.45 Def | 4.8 Res

It's true that he's not a speedy fellow, but in response this CAN take a hit. Barring bosses no one reaches 30 Atk and the one thing he has to worry about is super fast units which are a problem for practically everyone.

EDIT: I understand the slight reason of dropping Dolph, but if that's the case Katua should be going down with him.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

Merric gets doubled as mage for a pretty significant amount of time.

[Colonel M]

He might get doubled for a very short time... about two levels tops. He can escape it quite easily.

EDIT: And why is Merric being punished for going to Cleric? He's at least making use of the class unlike the putzes such as Raddy and co.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

but if that's the case Katua should be going down with him.

Done.

He might get doubled for a very short time... about two levels tops. He can escape it quite easily.

My memory probably sucks or he got RNG screwed then, though I feel that durability issues aren't enough to completely toss Sheeda's mage utility out of the water since having speed to double enemies (not immediately, obviously, but she'll do it) AND target Res is pretty hard to come by.

EDIT: And why is Merric being punished for going to Cleric? He's at least making use of the class unlike the putzes such as Raddy and co.

What? Since when were we punishing him for going Cleric?

[Colonel M]

I'm not wholeheartedly disagreeing with you though tbh we haven't really got anywhere with this Oguma vs. Shiida in general since we're both semi-stubborn.

My memory probably sucks or he got RNG screwed then, though I feel that durability issues aren't enough to completely toss Sheeda's mage utility out of the water since having speed to double enemies (not immediately, obviously, but she'll do it) AND target Res is pretty hard to come by.

I'm not tossing it totally out of the water but Oguma is one of the first units barring weird setups like Pegasus Knight!Shiida to double and has little to work with on his weapon rank. Merric starts with 6 Spd which goes down to 5 with either Fire or Excalibur. That will get doubled by some units but he still has a 40% Spd growth to consider. He's also Level 1 so he'll level up slightly faster than the people around him. Excalibur is something Shiida has no answer to though in some cases (Mage-wise).

What? Since when were we punishing him for going Cleric?

You said this:

You know that Merric suffers the exact same problem right? If not worse off? He's pretty reliant on Cleric to be so high up just as Sheeda isn't high for Mage alone.

Which is slightly like slapping him in the face.

I'll call this Oguma and Shiida thing off for now unless you think it really needs to be resolved because no one else is really stepping up to the plate on either side of the argument (Wolf mentioned Sorcerer!Zag >_>...) though I'd like to bring up Samson going up a couple of spots since he doesn't really have negative utility until Braves come around.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I'll call this Oguma and Shiida thing off for now unless you think it really needs to be resolved because no one else is really stepping up to the plate on either side of the argument (Wolf mentioned Sorcerer!Zag >_>...) though I'd like to bring up Samson going up a couple of spots since he doesn't really have negative utility until Braves come around.

I've yet to comment because I thought Rody/Chainey was handling it pretty well.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Sirius

[Colonel M]

Fine, then let's just look at Samson.

Over Tomas is pretty easy. He gets doubled very often and, in order to build some sort of "neutral utility" he would require to promote early on and then there's still the issue that his Str isn't the hottest to begin with and even promotion doesn't totally save him since a 10/1 Tomas has about 11 Spd. Samson here isn't wtfterrible. His 16 AS the the crucial point here which allows him to prevent being doubled by a lot of units as well as double for a while. The Silver Axes are his main point of use.

Hand Axe - 18 Atk

Silver Axe - 24 Atk

While he isn't rolling any heads whatsoever he's not doing so badly. Take the Cavs for example:

Cav 6:

34 HP

26 atk [Horseslayer]

104 hit

11 AS

8 def

1 res

Cav 8: [2 Jav 1 silver sword]

35 (36) HP

28 atk [26 Javelin]

109 hit [105 Javelin]

11 AS

9 def

1 res

Cav 10: [1 Armorslayer, 1 Horseslayer]

37 HP

27 atk

105 hit (110 Armorslayer)

11 (12) AS

10 def

1 res

That's still doubling them and he can at least do about 26 damage minimum (against Sword users) with the Silver Axe. The D Rank in Swords sucks though. Another advantage is he can pull the Hammers out and dent Armor Knights and Generals. Poleaxes are around by C17X and C18 so he can at least use them for a short time. By C19 he's slightly deteriorating but he can still sort of stabilize. He isn't ORKOed by the Heroes here at least and still has chip damage going for him. C20 he's practically done.

He's doing a lot more than Tomas's ass could ever do. Or some of the people above him for that matter.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

You said this:

I never said it was a bad thing.

I'm not tossing it totally out of the water but Oguma is one of the first units barring weird setups like Pegasus Knight!Shiida to double and has little to work with on his weapon rank.

Who then later on in the game has only limited time to use decent axes, and never really has maximum damage potential once lances are fairly common.

Merric starts with 6 Spd which goes down to 5 with either Fire or Excalibur.

Oooh, so this is where I remember Merric getting doubled by quite a decent amount of things.

Excalibur is something Shiida has no answer to though in some cases (Mage-wise).

While not the answer the teacher is looking for, is a very well thought out second opinion on the matter.

[Colonel M]

Burgh can we move on?

You said this:

I never said it was a bad thing.

I'm not tossing it totally out of the water but Oguma is one of the first units barring weird setups like Pegasus Knight!Shiida to double and has little to work with on his weapon rank.

Who then later on in the game has only limited time to use decent axes, and never really has maximum damage potential once lances are fairly common.

Early promotion isn't a bad option for him. There's really no negative to doing so in the first place.

Merric starts with 6 Spd which goes down to 5 with either Fire or Excalibur.

Oooh, so this is where I remember Merric getting doubled by quite a decent amount of things.

Cavs have 9 AS in the beginning. It doesn't quite reach to 10 with a snap of a finger.

Excalibur is something Shiida has no answer to though in some cases (Mage-wise).

(IMG)

While not the answer the teacher is looking for, is a very well thought out second opinion on the matter.

Yeah. 9 chapters LATER.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rodykitty]

Cavs have 9 AS in the beginning. It doesn't quite reach to 10 with a snap of a finger.

There are other enemies as well. It doesn't help that Merric also isn't going to double any of these guys anytime soon if he's trained as Mage.

Early promotion isn't a bad option for him. There's really no negative to doing so in the first place.

I really need to see what happens when everyone promotes early (even for those that don't need to).

Yeah. 9 chapters LATER.

She has to build up rank for it anyway, but it's still great for her since later game enemies have so much HP.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I only brought up early promotion for units that trivialize the game when doing so (taking 3 damage per attack, having 40+ HP and effective weapons for example). For other combat units that really don't see such a game breaking improvement I wouldn't recommend early promotion since the opportunity cost is greater than that of the previously mentioned example due to the output not being near as significant.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Sirius

[Colonel M]

Early promotion barely hurts since units roughly gain the same CEXP over time and you might lose a couple of levels tops which is perhaps a stat or two point of difference at max level which likely won't happen in the first place. There's also the return factor of building up a weapon rank earlier.

Armor Knights were usually the only units to assume an early promotion. Though I wonder if Navarre would benefit from it since he can escape to DracoKnight and benefit a bit more from the Spd growth and quickly buildup on the Axe rank. Others spring into my head (Shiida and Oguma were two other examples, maybe others like Roger and Dolph / Katua). This would be one of the few games where early promotion has quite a bit of benefit.

Samson > Astram seems a bit iffy to do due to Astram having at least "enough" Spd to double, but not being able to wield Silver Axes kind of hurt and in the end he's ending up as a slightly, SLIGHTLY better Samson.

EDIT: Using Roger as an example, 15/1. The route should be obvious here.

35 HP | 14.5 Str | 13.5 Skl | 19 Spd | 10 Luck | 9 Def | 3 Res

The growth differences:

Fighter - 90 HP | 75 Str | 25 Skl | 20 Spd | 80 Luck | 0 Def

Hero - 70 HP | 55 Str | 35 Skl | 30 Spd | 80 Luck | 5 Def

Now compare 20/1 Roger to a 15/6 Roger:

20/1 - 39.5 HP | 18.25 Str | 14.3 Skl | 20.0 Spd | 14.0 Luck | 9.0 Def | 3.0 Res

15/6 - 38.5 HP | 17.25 Str | 15.25 Skl | 20.5 Spd | 14.0 luck | 9.2 Def | 3.0 Res

So... there isn't much of a penalty here.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

I'm convinced that Dolph shouldn't even be in Upper Mid. He's a liability in his beginning chapters, and its not like he's gaining tons of experience for being underlevelled. All the non-promoted enemies (promoted enemies ORKO him) have levels around 5-7 in 12x. Chapter 13, he's doing about 1-2 damage to the shooters, and again being a liability.

hold up

Isn't Fighter>Hero Dolph's setup? Why's he on Hunter?

Dolph also has excellent growth rates [90 HP/55str/40spd/15 def] and a low level to take advantage of them quick: Heck, I don't even know how you got that his bases are bad: 12 base AS as fighter, 7 base str. Not WONDERFUL, no, but considering how fast they recover with Cord-like growth rates...12x isn't even that bad for availability, Gaiden chapter and all.

So yes, Dolph drop was far too hasty imho.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Norton Sez What?

[Colonel M]

It's actually dependable.

Hunter -> General yields him a decent Brave soakage. 20 Def and 17 Spd isn't anything to scoff at. Though sometimes I'm inclined to agree Fighter -> Hero has slightly more advantages but the rank (Axe-wise) could be an issue.

[Dat Nick]

Hunter sticks him on E rank anyway and Dolph will have axes built up by promotion so weapon ranks after promo don't matter either way.

[Colonel M]

General gets Silver Lance pretty fast though so an early promotion could be considered. Guess the Hero setup wouldn't be so bad. Let's just say that it sucks that Berserker has a pretty low Spd base.

Imma look more in-depth with this early promotion thing. Could be something that helps rebring Dolph and Katua back up there and even put Roger > Athena (hint: Pegasi and DracoKnight have same base Spd stats).

Edited August 12, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

I'm going to go into more details with the problems I have concerning Dolph's drop:

Here's another problem I have with IOS's comparision:

13/0 Radd

21 Mt (Silver Sword, no rank bonus), 15 AS

wtf? not only did you give Radd TWELVE levels in five chapters [His crap ATK will make spoonfeeding him kills difficult so you can't just use "lol he's underlevelled" as an excuse for rocketing his ATK that high] His weapon rank somehow went from D to B in that same timeframe. Yes, Weapon Ranks go up fast. They do not go up THAT fast. Radd is not getting 53 attacks required to get from D to B in five chapters during a timeframe where his ability to attack is very limited. Heck, in C10, he's getting one shotted, making it even harder. Third of all, Radd is forced to go archer because that's just how bad his durability sucks. He cannot function as Myrm at all.

So no, that's not a fair comparison at all. It also doesn't take into account the deduction for WTD. Let's look at this more fairly:

8/0 Radd Steel Sword [i stated why Myrm sucks but what the hell I'll throw you a bone]

24 HP, 15 ATK, 12 AS, 7 def. -1 for WTD which is fairly frequent and -1 AS because he has 7 str which is weighed down by steel. WTD also makes him take more damage which sucks when you're 2HKOd.

Dolph base fighter, Iron axe:

24 HP, 14 ATK, 12 AS, 5 def.

It gets worse. Dolph's growths are all-around better and he gains EXP quicker, although really it's over by the time Dolph can use hand as he now has an answer to his durability problem. But just for lolz...

12/0 Radd Silver: 27 HP, 20 ATK [though more like 19], 15 AS, 7 def, no 1-2 range

12/0 Dolph Steel: 31 HP, 21 ATK, 15 AS, 5 def, 1-2 range

lmao, Radd is LOSING offense and he's got a freaking Silver whereas Dolph has STEEL. If that's not pathetic I have no clue what is. You wanna know how bad it gets when Dolph gets Silver? YOU DON'T WANNA KNOW. Alright, fine, you wanna know how come? I'm gonna tell ya.

16/0 Dolph: 35 HP, 27 ATK, 17 AS, 7 def

16/0 Radd: 30 HP, 21 ATK, 17 AS, 8 def

6 atk win. That's ignoring stuff like poleaxes and hammers which are overall more useful than dragonswords. And 1-2 range is still useful. Heck, when exactly does WTA in axes net an extra ATK point? I may be sandbagging Dolph a bit here, but it's still a blowout.

Radd eats up resourcers for longer, sucks for longer, and never has a clear win over Dolph. I don't see why comparing him to Radd should send him flying down like that when Dolph's the clear winner.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Norton Sez What?

[Colonel M]

I've told you in the Cord vs. Wolf debate... it comes at an A Rank.

15/1 General!Dolph seems fairly solid too if he can squeeze in a couple extra levels after that. A matter of when he's getting there, I guess. Fighter!Dolph I know is a pretty decent force to be reckoned with though.

[Dat Nick]

I've told you in the Cord vs. Wolf debate... it comes at an A Rank.

I'm referring to bonuses to Dolph's ATK, not penalties to enemy ATK. But speaking of, the fact that Dolph's DEF would effectively boost by 3 would essentially make him win durability too which is just even more hilarious.

[Colonel M]

With Axes in general rank-wise? It only increases Hit% for Axes unfortunately.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

No. WT variables. I know you don't just automatically get 1 more ATK for having the WTA [Cain in C1 illustrates this]

[Colonel M]

You're confusing me. If you mean "when Dolph has WTA and gains +1 Atk" then it's A Rank. Otherwise you're losing me. From Serenes:

+1 if weapon is good against enemy's weapon (weapon rank is A)

-1 if weapon is bad against enemy's weapon (enemy's weapon rank is A)

[Rodykitty]

I forgot where they were before so I put them in precautionary positions.