H5 Tier list topic

[Dat Nick]

You're confusing me. If you mean "when Dolph has WTA and gains +1 Atk" then it's A Rank.

That's what I mean.

[Colonel M]

Alright IOS had Athena at 20/1 by C16 so I'm going to try 15/1 Roger vs. her:

Athena: 35 HP, 32 Atk (Silver Lance), 14 AS, 15 Def

Roger: 35 HP, 29 Atk (Silver Axe), 18 AS, 9 Def

K, let's just go over this quick for C16.

Horseman: both 2RKO. Athena is weak to these guys too and she gets 31/35 of her HP knocked off. Roger gets damaged for a 3RKO.

Wyvern: both 3RKO. Roger can succomb these guys to a 3RKO as well. Athena w/out the Axes is 3RKOed, otherwise it can become a 4RKO if she wields an Axe.

Hero: 3RKO for Roger, 2RKO for Athena. Athena wins the Levin one especially due to -4 Atk.

Cavs: Interesting... they have 11 AS! One even has 12. If it's WTA Roger can ORKO. If it's WTD (28 Atk) he can miss out on Armorslayer!Cav but that's about it. Athena 2RKOes with the Ridersbane. Durability pends on other things but Roger can pull 3RKOes on the Lance users. Athena CAN be 4RKOed on average though.

Paladin: Shockingly Roger can double this guy. Unfortunately both Athena and Roger 2RKO again so...

General / AKs: *Roger whips out Hammer and auto-wins this*.

To give you a clear example Roger is also capable of ORKOing the Boss w/Hammer. Impressive.

Roger (15/8) : 40 HP, 32 Atk (Silver Axe), 21 AS, 9 Def, 28 Avo

Athena (20/6): 38 HP, 33 Atk (Silver Lance), 17 AS, 15 Def

Roger can easily double the Paladins and nuke Generals. Poleaxes / Hammers are available at this point and semi-plentiful so no real issue should arise. Oh, he can 2RKO with a Hand Axe which means he can avoid a counter on the Player Phase at the very least.

So the question arises if durability matters more or offense in general... this probably won't get very far but thought of posting it anyway.

[Don Draper]

Yeah...I was comparing 13/0 Radd to 13/0 Dolph, both at Chapter 16. So your comparison is pretty pointless. I wasn't arguing Radd>Dolph either, I just put that in for lols. But yeah, Dolph has a pathetic start, and you cannot deny this. He`s LUCKY to 5RKO enemies. I`d be happy to redo his performance as a Fighter though, and show how absolutely pathetic he still is until he promotes. The problem with all of you is that you find a cool build by fooling around on FEPlanet, and then hype it to hell while overlooking any flaws it may have. Who cares if Hunter Dolph is doing 1-2 damage to Shooters in Chapter 13! 20 Defenses and 17 AS on promotion! (not calling you out Colonel M, just an example). Seriously, Dolph is Lower Mid material, and I`ll do a chapter by chapter analysis of him as a Fighter, and still show how he`s a mediocre character if you want.

PS: Thanks for ignoring my point about Dolph not gaining levels fast, due to not being able to kill anything and facing enemies generally around his level at join time (He gets ORKO`d by promoted enemies).

Edited August 12, 2009 by IOS

[Rodykitty]

Most of H5's character cast is mediocre.

And by most, I seriously include characters like Abel & Kain.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Rody

[Don Draper]

Whatever. Dolph still has 14 Atk at base level, so he`s still 5-7RKOing most things in 12x. And still doing 2-3 damage to Shooters in 13. And still keeping up this pattern of patheticness until he promotes.

12x. Fighter Dolph has 24 HP, 14 Atk, 12 AS, 5 Def

10RKOs or 19RKOs Armors. Gets 2RKO`d

4RKOs or 5RKOs Archers. Gets 2RKO`d

Can ORKO Level 3 Mages, but not Level 5 or 7s. Gets 2RKO`d

19ROs the Mamkute. ORKO`d in return

6RKOs the Sniper. Gets ORKO`d in return

Yep, pretty amazing there Dolph!

Chapter 13!

6RKOs or 9RKOs Shooters. Gets 2RKO`d

You want to argue that he`s getting any levels in these chapters? When he can`t even ORKO Mages? To be continued.

Edited August 12, 2009 by IOS

[Colonel M]

Actually if he was going to Hunter -> General route he'd be better as an Armor Knight for C13 anyway.

[Dat Nick]

12x. Fighter Dolph has 24 HP, 14 Atk, 12 AS, 5 Def

10RKOs or 19RKOs Armors. Gets 2RKO`d

4RKOs or 5RKOs Archers. Gets 2RKO`d

Can ORKO Level 3 Mages, but not Level 5 or 7s. Gets 2RKO`d

19ROs the Mamkute. ORKO`d in return

6RKOs the Sniper. Gets ORKO`d in return

Yep, pretty amazing there Dolph!

Chapter 13!

6RKOs or 9RKOs Shooters. Gets 2RKO`d

Looking at Dolph in his worst stages doesn't prove anything. We know Dolph sucks at jointime. Then on most shit like the Sniper and Fighter it's mostly forgivable since everybody gets ORKOd by the Mamkute and nobody without a Dragonslayer can deal decent damage against them, really. It's a similar story with the shooters: Lots of characters get 2RKOd by them.

Dolph can start consistently doubling cavs at 9/0, and of course gets Steel and Handaxe. He's fine once the crappiness of E rank Axes wears off.

I don't see why anybody's being accused of "hyping" Fighter Dolph either as Dolph's tier position has never reflected that he is an epic unit. He has problems. But unlike say, Radd, most of his problems get fixed fairly quick.

I'm fine with him moving down, just not below Upper Mid, and certainly not below Endgamer area.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Norton Sez What?

[Colonel M]

I was actually going to suggest putting Dolph at the bottom but higher than Katua at least. Would have no problems with that. Accusing me of hype though...

Edited August 12, 2009 by Colonel M

[Don Draper]

Didn't mean to centre you out, everybody in this topic does this to some degree. But I'm wondering how Dolph is even supposed to gain any levels with his atrocious start?

I think I'll do Palla vs. Dolph

So I can't give Dolph more then 1 level a chapter at least for now. I'm sorry, but he's the same level as most of these guys and performing worse then pretty much anybody on the team. But lets be nice and make him 7/0 for Palla:

Now Palla starts with B Lances, so she gets to use a Silver Lance. How nice.

Dolph 7/0: 27 HP, 15 Atk, 13 AS, 6 Def

Palla 8/0: 22 HP, 21 Atk, 13 AS, 8 Def

Archers: Dolph 4 or 5RKOs them. Palla 3RKOs them. Archers obviously ORKO Palla, but 2RKO Dolph

Cavs: Dolph 7 or 8RKOs the Cavs. Palla 3 or 4RKOs them. Both get 2RKO'd

Sniper: Dolph 6RKOs them. Palla 4RKOs them. Same durability situation with the archers

Armor 7: Dolph 7RKOs them and Palla just misses out on 2RKOing them. Both get 2RKO'd

Armor 11: Dolph 11RKOs them. Palla 3RKO's them (It takes Palla 8 less rounds :D ). Both get 2RKO'd

Thieves: Dolph 3RKOs them. Palla 2RKOs them. They ORKO both (ouch)

So Dolph is still a laughing stock offensively, and is doing much worse then Palla here, except for defensively against the archers. Palla is pulling a win by a mile, obviously

15 is another blowout for Palla, thanks to actually being able to move.

Now, Chapter 16. We'll still be generous to Dolph, and give him a level a chapter. Actually, lets just make him Level 10. Palla can be level 10 too. D Rank for Dolph, A rank for Palla

Dolph 10/0: 29 HP, 20 Atk (Steel Axe), 14 AS, 6 Def

Palla 10/0: 23 HP, 23 Atk (Silver Lance), 14 AS, 9 Def

Note that Cavs now have at least 11 AS, so neither can double

Horsemen: Dolph 3RKOs. So does Palla. ORKO's Palla and 2RKOs Dolph

Wyvern: Dolph 5RKOs. Palla 4RKOs. 2RKOs both

Hero: Dolph 4RKOs. Palla gets WTA, so 3RKOs. 2RKOs both

Cav 6: Dolph 3RKOs. So does Palla. 2RKOs both

Cav 8: Dolph 4RKOs. Palla 3RKOs. 2RKOs both

Cav 10: Dolph 4RKOs. Palla 3RKOs. 2RKOs both

Paladin: Dolph 5RKOs. Palla 4RKOs. 2RKOS both

General: Dolph 5RKOs. Palla 3RKOS. 2RKOs both

Thief: Both 2RKO. ORKO's Dolph and 2RKOs Palla (thanks to WT bonus loss)

Another clear win for Palla. Oh wait, she can use the Horselayer, can't she? Lets see, thats 32 effective might. Meaning she 2RKOs the Horsemen, 2RKOs all the cavs, 2RKOs the Paladin, wow. She is still beating the living snot out of Dolph.

Do you want me to continue this, and show how Dolph is still failing at life until promotion, which won't come until around Chapter 20 at the earliest? Is it worth sucking in at least Chapters 12, 12x, 13, 14, 15, 16 and possibly more depending on how much proof you guys need? Move this guy to top of lower mid.

And how much experience does Dolph actually get per hit in 12x? Against a level 7 enemy, according to the exp formula:

Level difference: 2

Hit: (31+2)/3=11 exp

Kill: 30+ (2*3.33)= 36.66 exp. Considering he can't kill enemies for beans...

Edited August 12, 2009 by IOS

[Dat Nick]

Didn't mean to centre you out, everybody in this topic does this to some degree. But I'm wondering how Dolph is even supposed to gain any levels with his atrocious start?

It wasn't that, it just seems weird to say we're hyping when nobody here thinks Dolph should be above middle of upper-mid. Hell, I'm starting to think he should be in the lower portion of Upper-mid.

Didn't mean to centre you out, everybody in this topic does this to some degree. But I'm wondering how Dolph is even supposed to gain any levels with his atrocious start?

How does Vyland gain any levels with his atrocious start? How does Julian get any levels with his atorcious start? How does Roger, Radd, hell, even Palla herself? I concede that Dolph being underlevelled is a problem despite the fact that pretty much everybody needs to be babied at one point in H5, but I do think you're making a bit too much of a stink out of it. Even Zagaro and Wolf need to be babied somewhat.

Also, as mentioned, he doesn't stick out in C12x as bad as you make it sound. Everybody's dealing shit damage to the Mamkute and getting ORKOd in return, only the top tiers aren't getting raped by the sniper, and Cord/Barst are pretty much the only guys who can actually efficiently kill generals/armors due to hammers. Also, kills are quite easy for him. Abel whips out something weak like an iron sword on an archer, Dolph finishes it. Heck, you probably have some guys just barely missing ORKOs on the archers normally. Dolph can easily get kills and WEXP in this chapter, you make it sound like he's Radd who's getting one shotted and does like 4 dmg back.

It's a similar story with the shooters. Dolph isn't killing them on his own goddess no, but he's more than capable of finishing when somebody JUST missed an ORKO. And with armor-knight like durability, a lot of your guys will be borderline-not doing that.

Dolph's biggest issue is gone as soon as he hits D axes: He can do half-decent damage now with Steel, and can also get 2-range to cancel out his meh durability. Once he hits C it gets even better as now he's independently ORKOing most stuff with Hammer/Poleax: And 23 rounds is easy to get when you're in the back row chucking handaxes.

The biggest jump comes at promotion: 17 str/23 AS is comparing with Cord for best offense in the game. The returns with Dolph are more than worth the hassle, which while it is a problem, it's far from unworkable.

For example, I could see Dolph below, say, Roger or Caesar if he's not there already, but I simply can't see how he's more of a detriment than a plus, which is why I'm so adamant on keeping him above the Endgamers.

[Don Draper]

Then Palla needs to move up or Dolph down, because Palla is beating him at least until promotion, and doesn't have to deal with three more chapters of suck. And since Palla has been proven to be lower mid many times...

Also being a detriment would be having to be forcefed kills to keep up. And thats exactly what Dolph requires.

Edited August 12, 2009 by IOS

[Dat Nick]

Also being a detriment would be having to be forcefed kills to keep up. And thats exactly what Dolph requires.

Can anybody honestly say they don't need to be forcefed kills unless they're utility characters like Horace/Minerva/Wendell/the works? I don't know why you keep dodging this point. Merric would also count for obvious reasons, but other than utility characters/healers...

And it's sooner than promotion: Dolph takes the lead as soon as he can whip out Silver. Dolph has superior growth rates all around too so from equal levels it gets worse for Palla. At promotion Dolph went from slightly winning to creaming her: Dolph's 23 AS has her beat no matter what [Paladin doesn't help Palla as she doesn't even hit her speed cap as Draco] There's not a huge disparity between them durability-wise, either: 4 def lead is negated by 7 HP win and axes to cut the DEF win anyway. So then Palla wins big at first, then it gets cut down to a slight win when Dolph can use steel, Dolph wins when he can use Poleaxe/Hammer, and then Dolph spanks her after promotion and keeps that pace for the rest of the game.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Norton Sez What?

[Don Draper]

Can anybody honestly say they don't need to be forcefed kills unless they're utility characters like Horace/Minerva/Wendell/the works? I don't know why you keep dodging this point. Merric would also count for obvious reasons, but other than utility characters/healers...

If any other characters in Upper Mid are as bad as Dolph at jointime in relation to the team, then they need to drop too. If Vyland's that bad, he shouldn't be up there either. When you're lol 7RKOing Cavaliers and 19RKOing armors, while the rest of your army is 2RKOing them (or ORKOing them in Cord's case), then there is something very, very wrong. And before you say "Cavs need favoritism too!", they're actually performing about equally with the rest of the team during their early chapters. They're not taking 5-6 rounds more to kill something compared to the rest of the team. I'll be happy to get you numbers, showing how the rest of the team is handling 12x enemies if you want.

And it's sooner than promotion: Dolph takes the lead as soon as he can whip out Silver. Dolph has superior growth rates all around too so from equal levels it gets worse for Palla. At promotion Dolph went from slightly winning to creaming her: Dolph's 23 AS has her beat no matter what [Paladin doesn't help Palla as she doesn't even hit her speed cap as Draco] There's not a huge disparity between them durability-wise, either: 4 def lead is negated by 7 HP win and axes to cut the DEF win anyway. So then Palla wins big at first, then it gets cut down to a slight win when Dolph can use steel, Dolph wins when he can use Poleaxe/Hammer, and then Dolph spanks her after promotion and keeps that pace for the rest of the game.

Great numbers there, I see...3 in that paragraph? While I have actual figures that I posted earlier, showing how terrible Dolph is at joining, how Palla destroys him once she joins, and how that lead keeps up. And for the last time, nobody gives a damm about Dolph after promotion. Yeah, he's good after promotion! I hear Est is pretty good after promotion too! I put Dolph at Level 10 at Chapter 16. Lets say he gains 1.5 levels from here on out. He promotes in 7 chapters, or around Chapter 21. So he wins Chapter 21-23, and Palla wins Chapters 24-25 by default because she can use the DragonPike to actually damage those Mamkutes. So enjoy your three chapter lead Dolph. It only took you 12 fucking chapters.

Palla>Dolph

Dolph in Lower Mid

For somebody who hates Est, you sure put a lot of weight on lategame.

We need to get Mekkah or somebody to sort this crap out.

Edited August 12, 2009 by IOS

[Colonel M]

Of course I can't be that person.

...Let me see if an early promotion can at least wipe some of the slate off if he's a Hunter. Though I think we're taking things a little too far on the subject.

[Dat Nick]

When you're lol 7RKOing Cavaliers and 19RKOing armors, while the rest of your army is 2RKOing them (or ORKOing them in Cord's case)

Hold the phone. Who without Hammers/Armorslayers can honestly say they have decent offense against armors?

I'll be happy to get you numbers, showing how the rest of the team is handling 12x enemies if you want.

I know 85% of the cast at this point>Dolph, you know. There's no need to prove what everybody involved in this discussion knows.

They're not taking 5-6 rounds more to kill something compared to the rest of the team.

This is only Dolph at his very worst. Nobody's disputing that Dolph is shit at jointime. What you seem to be undermining is how quickly he can get out of that rut.

Great numbers there, I see...3 in that paragraph?

Arguments are based off of more than numbers. You bought up most of them. I saw no need to expand on what we already knew.

I posted Dolph's growth rates earlier for you: It would be hard to dispute that those don't pummel Palla's into the ground.

And for the last time, nobody gives a damm about Dolph after promotion.

wtf? of course we do. He'll have more than enough time to reach it and when he does he's ridiculously good. Like high-tier level good. His issue is, well, getting there, the only reason he is not high/top tier.

Yeah, he's good after promotion! I hear Est is pretty good after promotion too!

A: Est still sucks after promotion.

B: Don't even compare Dolph's situation to Est. I mean, seriously.

He promotes in 7 chapters, or around Chapter 21. So he wins Chapter 21-23, and Palla wins Chapters 24-25 by default because she can use the DragonPike to actually damage those Mamkutes. So enjoy your three chapter lead Dolph. It only took you 12 fucking chapters.

I told you already: Dolph gets his lead before that. He stops losing when C axes become available and he wins once B axes become available. Of course, you seemed to have skipped over that entire tidbit, which I don't understand as it's pretty much the primary backbone of my argument. Furthermore, I'm kind of agreeing Dolph would promote early.

For somebody who hates Est, you sure put a lot of weight on lategame.

Yes, Est sucks because her lategame is terrible. Your point?

We need to get Mekkah or somebody to sort this crap out.

srsly

Edited August 12, 2009 by Norton Sez What?

[Don Draper]

Hold the phone. Who without Hammers/Armorslayers can honestly say they have decent offense against armors?

Almost the entire cast will have access to these weapons by this point (Armorslayers are buyable in Chapter 12, Hammers in Chapter 10, etc), and we also have magic users as well.

I know 85% of the cast at this point>Dolph, you know. There's no need to prove what everybody involved in this discussion knows.

So you concede this point? Great

This is only Dolph at his very worst. Nobody's disputing that Dolph is shit at jointime. What you seem to be undermining is how quickly he can get out of that rut.

Really? Because according to my Chapter 16 analysis, he's still 4-5RKOing on a team thats 1-2RKOing. That's 6 chapters of being terrible

Arguments are based off of more than numbers. You bought up most of them. I saw no need to expand on what we already knew.

I posted Dolph's growth rates earlier for you: It would be hard to dispute that those don't pummel Palla's into the ground.

Arguments are based off both numbers and analysis of those numbers. You can't pass things off as fact with no numbers to back them up. And hmmm...growth rates vs. detailed comparison of characters in relation to the enemies. Whats more convincing?

wtf? of course we do. He'll have more than enough time to reach it and when he does he's ridiculously good. Like high-tier level good. His issue is, well, getting there, the only reason he is not high/top tier.

He has less then five chapters where he's actually promoted, as I demonstrated earlier. After at least six chapters, he's still doing terribly. Sounds like a net loss to me.

A: Est still sucks after promotion.

B: Don't even compare Dolph's situation to Est. I mean, seriously.

Est's jointime vs. Dolph's jointime below

I told you already: Dolph gets his lead before that. He stops losing when C axes become available and he wins once B axes become available. Of course, you seemed to have skipped over that entire tidbit, which I don't understand as it's pretty much the primary backbone of my argument. Furthermore, I'm kind of agreeing Dolph would promote early.

*looks for factual evidence backing this statement up*

Nope, don't see it. The reason I skipped over it is because you had absolutely no facts to back that up. You can't just claim something, and not give any reasons as to why he wins once C axes are available. Yes he can use the Poleax, but we only have one by Chapter 18, and pretty much anyone with access to axes would like it. Better offense against horse units? Its a godsend to any axe unit.

Yes, Est sucks because her lategame is terrible. Your point?

Her jointime is better then Dolph's jointime, as you'll see

srsly

Already PM'd him

And Est at jointime:

Est 3/0: 19 HP, 29 Atk (Ridersbane), 7 AS (Ridersbane), 7 Def

Horsemen: Est 2RKOs with the Ridersbane. She gets ORKO'd (obviously)

Paladin: Est 3RKOs with the Ridersbane. She gets ORKO'd

Cavs: Est 2RKOs with the Ridersbane. She gets ORKO'd

So really, Est is better offensively, but worse defensively. She gets ORKO'd by everything on the map, this is true. However, her offense is very good. She generally 2RKOs, which makes it much easier for her to finish off an enemy then Dolph, who is generally 5-7RKOing at jointime (and 19RKOing...). His jointime offense is pathetic compared to the rest of the team, while Est's is very consistent. HunterGeneral!Draug for example has 29 Atk/19 AS at 20/4 at this point, and is 2RKOing everything but the cavs. Her offense is consistent with the rest of the team, unlike Dolph. There is her durability, but Dolph is also ORKO'd by several enemies at jointime. As long as she strikes the ending blow rather then the beginning blow, she is fine.

Hero!Barst against these enemies at 20/4 has 32 Atk/20 AS. So even he is 2RKOing Horsemen, which is consistent with Est's offense.

Obviously not arguing Est>Dolph, but when Est is 2-3RKOing at jointime while Dolph is 5-7RKOing at jointime, it demonstrates just how bad Dolph really is.

Edited August 13, 2009 by IOS

[Colonel M]

Here's a major flaw to this argument on Dolph vs. Est: one isn't ORKOed CONSTANTLY.

[Don Draper]

Here's a major counter: one doesn't 7RKO CONSTANTLY. Characters like Micaiah are ORKO'd too, but have existing offense. Est doesn't fear counters from Horsemen either .Regardless, you'd have to be a fanboy to think that Dolph should be in Upper Mid. I don't need the Est comparison to show that. Although I'm glad the only point you nitpicked was my least important one.

Edited August 13, 2009 by IOS

[Colonel M]

So suddenly I'm a fanboy? Great logic. Est sucks because she's ORKOed, at that point everyone is 1-2RKOing as well, etc. I'm pretty sure Dolph is allowed a little leverage of suck to reap a reward. 15/1 Dolph right here (Hunter -> General):

37.7 HP | 13.8 Str | 10.9 Skl | 14.8 Spd | 4.1 Luck | 19.5 Def | 3.0 Res

If he can get a little time under his belt as a General before C20 then his Def goes up a bit. He even has a good chance of dodging some of the quadshots of 20 AS even at this point. 1 Speedwing or about 5 Levels and it's practically good to go.

FFS here's 10/1 Dolph:

35.2 HP | 11.1 Str | 9.2 Skl | 12.1 Spd | 3.6 Luck | 18.5 Def | 3.0 Res

I wouldn't even call this terrible either. 5 Levels he has about 21 Def on top of 13-14 Spd. And about 39 HP. About 10 Levels later he has 23 Def, 42 HP, and 15 Spd. That's enough Def to circumvent the Dracos in C21 and Pegs indefinitely.

I'd sooner go for the 15/1 setup, but the 10/1 setup has little drawbacks to it anyway.

That's only 6 levels. If we go through the whole "oh okay we take 1.5 Levels per chapter" he can reach it by C16 (the Lv 10/1). Paola cannot match him at that point.

I don't call him Mr. Clean for no reason.

He requires some babying, that I'll admit. Though with the 10/1 setup it's not even that extreme.

EDIT: Now I remember the other setup. It wasn't toward Hero though, it was something like Fighter -> Warrior but Hunter -> Warrior would yield slightly better results. Nothing compared to General though.

10/1 Hunter -> Wariror for the hell of it:

33.2 HP | 11.1 Str | 8.2 Skl | 16.1 Spd | 3.6 Luck | 8.5 Def | 1.0 Res

K, then 15/1 Hunter -> Warrior:

35.7 HP | 11.8 Str | 9.9 Skl | 18.8 Spd | 4.1 Luck | 9.5 Def | 1.0 Res

The Str is a bit on the weak side, but the Axes circumvent that slightly. I'd say 10/1 looks better but 10/6 only yields 18 Spd... which is a bit underwhelming I guess. The latter can reach 20 Spd in 3 levels later.

Edited August 13, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

Almost the entire cast will have access to these weapons by this point (Armorslayers are buyable in Chapter 12, Hammers in Chapter 10, etc), and we also have magic users as well.

This is disputable. This could just be me but I never bother to have the cavs monkey around with swords because there's just never a convenient time to do so.

So you concede this point? Great

It's been conceded since this argument started. The issue here is how quickly Dolph can climb out of this rut.

Really? Because according to my Chapter 16 analysis, he's still 4-5RKOing on a team thats 1-2RKOing. That's 6 chapters of being terrible

I think that analysis is slightly sandbagging him; I mean, five chapters to D rank? Really?

You can't pass things off as fact with no numbers to back them up.

I told you already: My numbers were built directly off of yours. No need to reiterate what we just saw.

And hmmm...growth rates vs. detailed comparison of characters in relation to the enemies.

If you bothered to look at your own numbers, you'd see the connection.

Dolph 10/0: 29 HP, 20 Atk (Steel Axe), 14 AS, 6 Def

Palla 10/0: 23 HP, 23 Atk (Silver Lance), 14 AS, 9 Def

Silvers have 4 more MT than Steel. Hence, B Axes is all he needs to beat Palla. Dolph's WTA cancels out Weapon rank boost, so he's only losing def by 1, of which his HP win more than cancels out. Since Dolph has all around better growth rates than Palla and his stats are already better/identical at equal levels, surely you can figure out what this means for Dolph: More leads, faster.

He has less then five chapters where he's actually promoted, as I demonstrated earlier. After at least six chapters, he's still doing terribly. Sounds like a net loss to me.

Early promotion is not out of the question to get the benefit earlier. 15/1 Dolph is perfectly usable.

*looks for factual evidence backing this statement up*

How many times do I have to say it? My numbers, and thus, my proof, were built directly off of yours.

The reason I skipped over it is because you had absolutely no facts to back that up.

You provided them already, I saw no need.

You can't just claim something, and not give any reasons as to why he wins once C axes are available.

What, it's not obvious? You yourself admitted Ridersbane was the only real win Palla had once they were both 10/0 since 3 ATK is kind of neligible. What can Dolph use at C? Poleaxes. What can Dolph also use at C? Hammers, which can kill armors, which Palla has no answer to.

Yes he can use the Poleax, but we only have one by Chapter 18,

?????

What are you talking about? We have four. The secret shop in C17 sells three.

and pretty much anyone with access to axes would like it.

Scratch Cord off the list because he's raping mounts without it. Barst too.

I don't see more than four axe units in play as a likely scenario.

Its a godsend to any axe unit.

Then it's a good thing there's plenty to go around.

There is her durability, but Dolph is also ORKO'd by several enemies at jointime.

Just by the mamkute and the sniper, the mamkute who's raping 90% of the units in play anyway and the sniper who's easy to avoid.

Furthermore...myself and Chainey have been discussing the possibility of Dolph being able to kill things in C12 as Armor, but we weren't able to reach a definite conclusion.

Obviously not arguing Est>Dolph, but when Est is 2-3RKOing at jointime while Dolph is 5-7RKOing at jointime, it demonstrates just how bad Dolph really is.

You can stop driving this point into the ground because we all get it: Dolph sucks at jointime. Unlike Est, he has a good amount of time to climb out of his rut.

[Colonel M]

Your answer:

Dolph (base) w/Steel Lance: 19 Atk. He could probably reach 20 if we fed him a couple of levels. Ballistae have 11-12 Def. Defensively? 3RKOed by the 23 and 24 Atk variants (as well as T-Bolt) and 2RKOed by the rest. Nothing spectacular but at least he can avoid being ORKOed or 2RKOed sometimes.

Edited August 13, 2009 by Colonel M

[Mekkah]

We need to get Mekkah or somebody to sort this crap out.

help why me

Anyway, Dolph doesn't seem anything but suck to me unless he gets an (early) promotion. But if he does, then like everyone and their mom does.

- Dolph
- Athena
- Roger
- Navarre
- Ceaser
- Minerva
- Vyland
- Jeigan

I can see him dropping below Navarre, perhaps Ceasar. Below that is utility material and...Vyland?

[Colonel M]

Problem with early promotion in some cases is it doesn't work as clear cut. Athena's main struggle isn't durability (though it improves with promotion), it's her AS. Promotion doesn't fix that whether it's early or late. Some like Navarre get a slight jump but it almost barely matters. I still advocated that Dolph < Caesar is fine anyway since I don't believe he's Lower Mid material at all with the early promotion.

2 problems with FEPlanet's system IMO: locked the first level and can't really consider early promotions without doing the math yourself. I don't really give a damn but there probably are others that do. Of course I can't do anything about it so dunno what to say about that.

We also have to solve this Athena thing, another thing that has been irritating me. Early promotion could be considered for both Roger vs. Athena but the main gap would be Roger doubling earlier vs. Athena getting some durability. Then again Roger wouldn't be doing so bad durability-wise... at least I think.

[Rodykitty]

Dolph > Catria, right next to each other.

I think it's clear that comparing these two, Dolph is obviously not getting much with his availability lead. Even his one chance to score a decent level up before Ch. 14 has issue with there only being one horse slayer and reliance on reinforcements. Thankfully we get another in Ch. 13 so that no longer becomes an issue.

So I feel that Dolph's availability conditions are virtually similar to Catria/Paola's, if not a bit better since Dolph has superior access to Ch. 14's non-reinforcement enemies, especially since Ch. 14 is a choke point friendly map.

Also, I think Athena's position is currently fine, and I'm going to be stubborn about it because I'm sick of constantly not knowing where to put people.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Rody

[Colonel M]

Now looking at it... yeah actually I agree with that.

Also... why is Dolph & Katua < Lena?