H5 Tier list topic

[Don Draper]

If Dolph is in Upper Mid, so should Palla. Simple as that. There shouldn't be a tier gap at all, considering Palla never has a period of complete suck for offense. I wish Middle tier wasn't reserved for generics, because there should be a tier difference between people like Marth, who are there from the beginning and provide great rapier utlity, and Vyland/Dolph/Catua who have bad starts. I'd be willing to argue Catria>Dolph as well.

We all know that Dolph sucks unpromoted. And I don't think I need to go into details before promotion. Catria is pretty much statistically the same as Palla at base level, with only 1 less strength. However, Catua is actually better then Dolph promoted.

Dolph 20/1: 40 HP, 17 Str, 23 Spd, 12 Def

Catria 20/1 Peg->Sniper: 38 HP, 17 Str, 22 Spd, 14 Def

Growths:

Dolph: 70 HP, 35 Str, 50 Spd, 20 Def

Catria: 70 HP, 45 Str, 70 Spd, 25 Def

Catria is beating Dolph in a similar way that Palla is beating Dolph until at least Chapter 16. But then they promote, and Catria is still better. There is never one specfic time where Dolph surpasses Catria. Catria>Dolph

I'll go into more detail if needed.

Edited August 14, 2009 by IOS

[Rodykitty]

I wish Middle tier wasn't reserved for generics

It's not. Maybe if you people would actually move these guys to other tiers to live among other characters, like I had intended, then maybe this complaint wouldn't exist.

considering Palla never has a period of complete suck for offense

Paola is mediocre for her entire lifetime. Dolph ends up having far superior offense once he gets going, and both of their starts are crappy.

The difference is clear.

[Don Draper]

No, the difference is not clear. Palla has much better start then Dolph. Did anybody actually read my comparisions? Like how Palla is 2RKOing everything on the map in Chapter 16, while Dolph is 4-5RKOing? Its like talking to a brick wall.

Catria>Dolph at least

Edited August 14, 2009 by IOS

[Rodykitty]

Catria > Dolph is a strong possibility, though Dolph does have full access to Ch. 14's enemies and Catria is reliant on reinforcements and CH. 15 enemies to get going, while Ch. 14 is a good opportunity for him to catch up and score kills.

Paola is never going to leave Low Mid. She simply doesn't have enough long term power to justify it.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Rody

[Don Draper]

Here's how Dolph is doing against the enemies of Chapter 14:

Dolph 7/0: 27 HP, 15 Atk, 13 AS, 6 Def

Archers: Dolph 4 or 5RKOs them. 2RKO Dolph

Cavs: Dolph 7 or 8RKOs the Cavs. 2RKO'd

Sniper: Dolph 6RKOs them. 2RKO'd

Armor 7: Dolph 7RKOs them. Gets 2RKO'd

Armor 11: Dolph 11RKOs them. Get 2RKO'd

Thieves: Dolph 3RKOs them. Gets ORKO'd

With an offense like that, do you honestly think he's getting any levels here? Give me a fucking break.

Once again, Palla has offense on par with the rest of your team. Dolph's offense is arguably the worst on your team. You people are so endgame stat obsessed its ridiculous. Dolph needs to go in the same tier as Palla. I posted numbers, read them.

Do you have any idea how frustrating it is to go through each chapter, post how each character is doing against the enemies, show how one character is doing much better then the other, and get responses like "Nope, Palla's not leaving Lower-Mid". Its ridiculous.

This tier list is a lost cause if you people can't understand this.

Edited August 14, 2009 by IOS

[Rodykitty]

Paola is never leaving Low Mid. I already did try to drop Dolph to Low Mid as well, but nobody agreed.

[_____]

Chainey, not to offend you or anything, but why are you being so myopic about this? He's given you more than enough proof that Dolph/Palla should at least be in the same tier, if not next to each other, since Palla crushes Dolph early on and Dolph wins against Palla later, so why not change it? There have been times when you've made changes without a second thought when less evidence than this has been shown, so why are you being so stubborn?

[Rodykitty]

I did lower Dolph.

Everyone else: "No, that was a hasty decision."

So if nobody is going to defend him (I tried), then he will fall. So will Catria.

[_____]

Why, exactly, will Palla never leave Lower Mid? Say Dolph wasn't dropped. That would mean Palla needed to rise, right? Why would this be such a problem?

[Rodykitty]

Paola is never leaving Lower Mid because it's been proven time and time that she's not even as good as people like Vyland or even Julian. To rise Paola would mean taking a whiz on these arguments.

[_____]

Or Julian could rise since Vyland is in Upper Mid already (which I don't understand since his start is horrible, but that's an argument for another time)...?

[Rodykitty]

That is an argument for another time (the next thing on the list). Right now Dolph is looking like he's lowering, same with Catria even if Julian rises (which I'm confident he will).

I am simply waiting for people to speak up.

[_____]

Fair enough. The evidence seems pretty solid, though, and if someone hasn't submitted a counterargument by now, I doubt they will at any time soon.

[Dat Nick]

Paola is never leaving Low Mid. I already did try to drop Dolph to Low Mid as well, but nobody agreed.

I actually dispute this. Peg>Sniper Palla looks to me like she could easily rise to upper mid. Speed, her biggest issue, is fixed, and she doesnt need to rank build for long because auto C bows and whatnot.

And due to Vyland's epic suckage as Cav and him coming out kind of similar as Sniper, I think I could easily build a case for Palla>Vyland, but some other time.

=27&c[10]=27&c[11]=27&c[12]=27&c[13]=27&c[14]=27&c[15]=27&c[16]=27&c[17]=27&c[18]=27&c[19]=27&c[20]=27&c[21]=32&c[22]=32&c[23]=32&c[24]=32&c[25]=32&c[26]=32&c[27]=32&c[28]=32&c[29]=32&c[30]=32&c[31]=32&c[32]=32&c[33]=32&c[34]=32&c[35]=32&c[36]=32&c[37]=32&c[38]=32&c[39]=32&c[40]=32"]just in case you wanna check it out

Edited August 14, 2009 by Miyamoto Powers

[Rodykitty]

I still don't see it as Upper Mid material, TBH. A lot of characters in Upper Mid can go Sniper as well, but have other advantages over her.

Chucking Vyland, Catria, and Julian into Mid Tier. Dropping Dolph to Low Mid.

EDIT: Dropping Katua to Low Mid as well.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Rody

[Don Draper]

A general comment from here on out: I think this tier list is at the point where tier adjustments should only be made with sufficient numerical evidence. Its fine for people to give vague arguments or general comments on a character's performance in the beginning stage of a tier list, just to provide a general template for the tier list. However, this list has been argued a lot, and I don't think thats going to cut it anymore. If anybody made vague comments on a character's placement in the FE10 tier list with no numerical evidence, they would be laughed at. This list needs to get to that point too. Nobody moves unless the debater can show how the character is doing in relation to the enemies compared to another. Otherwise, we'll never have a stable tier list.

Also, shouldn't unpromoted generics be on the list too? They exist as well. Although I really hate how ugly the list looks already with the generics, you can't just include half of them.

[Rodykitty]

If you want unpromoted generics on the list, tell me where to put them.

[Don Draper]

Ha, I have no clue actually. I hate the idea of generics being on the list in the first place. Its like putting those faceless units from Chapter 13 of FE5 on its list.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I'd leave the unpromoted faceless generics out of the list if I were you.

[Don Draper]

I think we should have either all generics, or none. We can't just exclude half of them.

[Rodykitty]

Ha, I have no clue actually. I hate the idea of generics being on the list in the first place. Its like putting those faceless units from Chapter 13 of FE5 on its list.

Keyword here is "Chapter 13".

Generics in FEDS are applicable in most chapters and an actual part of your roster.

Edited August 15, 2009 by Rody

[Mekkah]

Well, technically faceless generics aren't even as good as other units, so I actually don't see how they made it to Mid tier. Because they "come back to life"? Hypothetical question: what if Gordin, every time he dies, will be revived 3 chapters later. Does this rise him up the tier list? All he'll be is cannon fodder.

Of course faceless units rise themselves in level...but you also have to kill others off to do that, since you would never actually train them. And they dont't really get anywhere when trained anyhow. Hero/SM can avoid being doubled, maybe double really slow stuff, and the General lasts longer (though he also gets doubled a lot more)...

Tiering these generics just seems like tiering FE7 Merlinus to me.

[Rodykitty]

so I actually don't see how they made it to Mid tier.

As a start. If you think they should be lower, that'll be great. I never really used generics before so I can't say where they should be myself.

Hypothetical question: what if Gordin, every time he dies, will be revived 3 chapters later. Does this rise him up the tier list?

Depends. Suddenly there's a reason not to protect him but it might not outweigh characters above him.

Tiering these generics just seems like tiering FE7 Merlinus to me.

Well, generics are n00bed up damage dealers, so at least they're easier to compare.

[Quasar]

Hm. Generics' bases and growths are just the class ones if I recall correctly. That makes them statistically worse than every other character. What they do have is impressive availability but can you just assume they'll be with you from chapter 2 on?

[Colonel M]

They can have absolute base stats.

Also we've used statistical evidence almost all the time. Dolph was one of those rare instances.