Worst Lord ever

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

If I'm going to decrease the size of my forces, I could just as easily concentrate on units like Sain, Kent, etc... This strategy applies to all applicable units, and better units will still be better.

When we call Lyn a bad unit, it's because she has glaring flaws without special treatment. Good units usually don't need special treatment, but still benefit from being given some if you choose. We also judge units based on out-of-box performance and what they can do for the player, not what the player can do for them.

The Angelic Robe in Lyn's mode? I think it would only hurt your Lyn's mode funds rank. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, I believe tier lists are likely going to be less about ranks anyway. This is actually helping Lyn's case.

Yea actually nevermind it would only hurt her mode's funds. I'm not saying that sain/kent isn't better. Hell Dorcas is better than lyn with limited deployment in her mode thanks to the fact that he can promote ridiculously early thanks to the extra experience he got. Not to mention he will be one rounding everything thanks to coming in at a high level like 10 for example in either eliwood or hector's mode.

Better units are always better with limited deployment like how I said pent is always going to be a high/top tier character thanks to his amazing utility/good bases/high level/less need for resources.

Edited March 2, 2009 by Lancelot

[Rodykitty]

We both agree that limited deployment means that units can make them overpowered for the rest of the game, but it's also not how units are judged, and you yourself know this by your Pent example.

I don't know if Lyn is the worst Lord, and I never said she was, but I do think her flaws outweigh her advantages.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

We both agree that limited deployment means that units can make them overpowered for the rest of the game, but it's also not how units are judged, and you yourself know this by your Pent example.

I don't know if Lyn is the worst Lord, and I never said she was, but I do think her flaws outweigh her advantages.

Alright, I agree. Like I said in one of the above posts, she definitely lacks on hard mode without resource abuse. Ultimately I was just annoyed since I know many of the people in this topic refuse to say it but were letting there hatred get in the way of there judgment. How many times has it been said in this topic that she sucks? Last I recall she was in upper mid on the HHM ranked tier list.

[deleted35362]

Yeah, no votes for Alm, because he ownz.

[General Spoon]

Yeah, no votes for Alm, because he ownz.

I still wonder why someone would vote for Celica though.

[Lifeshroom]

Ike votes, lol.

Anyways Roy because of his ridiculously late promotion time and his pitiful stats.

[Original Alear]

I voted Roy, his good stats don't matter when he doesn't reach them. But I admit Lyn might deserve it more than him.

But what other lord isn't a massive cliche?

Ike's lack of romance is extremely original for the FE series. I don't have a problem with people hating on Ike but he is far from cliched (for the FE series at least). He's just boring. But all the FE lords are boring walls without any internal conflict to make things sexy (save for when Eliwuss killed ninian which was a golden moment in that game). Just gotta live with it.

Also, I believe tier lists are likely going to be less about ranks anyway. This is actually helping Lyn's case.

If they're not about ranks or turncounts what are they about?

Also I think PoR Ike > RD Ike.

*Watches PoR Ike aether RD Ike, RD Ike shrugs it off, counters, wins*

[Janissary]

Fine. It's time to use basic logic to pwn Lyn. This logic required approximately 1/2 of an HHM playthrough to develop.

Why Lyn sucks in 5 concise ideas:

1. She uses swords, just like 90% of the good characters in the game. She is a redundant, and less effective, character.

2. She will always lose the first promotion to Eliwood, as he helps you way more than her (horse utility, secondary lances>bows), and so she promotes with ~7 chapters left in the game.

3. She has a total of maybe 10 defensive and resistance stats by level 20 unpormoted. That blows when you can't dodge, which is far too often in HHM.

4. Her supports blow hardcore. They are all either sucky units or they want other supports. She gets Kent/Sain, maybe. You have to build your team around her, or else she gets nothing in the support area.

5. She's a girl. Sexism ftw. Seriously though, she has suckish strength, and nothing can make up for that.

Why we use Lyn anyway:

We have to. I hate game designers.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Fine. It's time to use basic logic to pwn Lyn. This logic required approximately 1/2 of an HHM playthrough to develop.

Why Lyn sucks in 5 concise ideas:

1. She uses swords, just like 90% of the good characters in the game. She is a redundant, and less effective, character.

2. She will always lose the first promotion to Eliwood, as he helps you way more than her (horse utility, secondary lances>bows), and so she promotes with ~7 chapters left in the game.

3. She has a total of maybe 10 defensive and resistance stats by level 20 unpormoted. That blows when you can't dodge, which is far too often in HHM.

4. Her supports blow hardcore. They are all either sucky units or they want other supports. She gets Kent/Sain, maybe. You have to build your team around her, or else she gets nothing in the support area.

5. She's a girl. Sexism ftw. Seriously though, she has suckish strength, and nothing can make up for that.

Why we use Lyn anyway:

We have to. I hate game designers.

1. She uses swords: INSTA FAIL

2. She will always lose the first promotion to eliwood even though unless you abuse eliwood he is never reaching level 20 before her.

3. She was in upper middle tier last I checked for the HHM ranked. Also True Hit? Have you heard of it?

4. Yea hector needs some good old boy love with eliwood to fix his problems otherwise he will never be a good unit.

5. We are no longer allowed to derail topics like this. They changed the rules earlier today.

[Janissary]

1. She uses swords: INSTA FAIL

2. She will always lose the first promotion to eliwood even though unless you abuse eliwood he is never reaching level 20 before her.

3. She was in upper middle tier last I checked for the HHM ranked. Also True Hit? Have you heard of it?

4. Yea hector needs some good old boy love with eliwood to fix his problems otherwise he will never be a good unit.

5. We are no longer allowed to derail topics like this. They changed the rules earlier today.

1. I agree.

2. Disgree. Eliwood exists from chapter 12 to chapter 27, where you get the heaven seal. Assuming her is at level 17 by Chapter 24, which he should be (in order to get Geitz), he can easily hit 20 by Chapter 27, so this point is negligable.

3. I don't know why true hit is being mentioned. Lances are common. When your avoid is around 50, but their hit is around 100-110 with WTA, your avoid is negated by the vast hordes of enemies. 9/10 times, you will get hit by one of them. And with Lyn, there isn't must more than that.

4.Lolz, Hector is good unit wihtout supports. His problems stem from forced promotion, so he can't promote earlier.

5. I'm not sure how this is a derail, my apologies. I just said her strength sucked, and, it does.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

1. I agree.

2. Disgree. Eliwood exists from chapter 12 to chapter 27, where you get the heaven seal. Assuming her is at level 17 by Chapter 24, which he should be (in order to get Geitz), he can easily hit 20 by Chapter 27, so this point is negligable.

3. I don't know why true hit is being mentioned. Lances are common. When your avoid is around 50, but their hit is around 100-110 with WTA, your avoid is negated by the vast hordes of enemies. 9/10 times, you will get hit by one of them. And with Lyn, there isn't must more than that.

4.Lolz, Hector is good unit wihtout supports. His problems stem from forced promotion, so he can't promote earlier.

5. I'm not sure how this is a derail, my apologies. I just said her strength sucked, and, it does.

What they said in the rules section is that if someone were to post a topic about thieves and it were to turn into an arguement over why or why not that thief is or is not the best or worst then that topic has been derailed.

[Ϲharlie]

What they said in the rules section is that if someone were to post a topic about thieves and it were to turn into an arguement over why or why not that thief is or is not the best or worst then that topic has been derailed.

Um, not quite. The example that was given in the announcements board was arguing about Volke and Sothe in a topic about thieves in Shadow Dragon. Discussing why Lyn is the worst lord in topic named "Worst Lord Ever" doesn't even come close derailing the topic.

[Janissary]

Good. I was wondering how discussing Lyn here was a derail, so thanks for clearing that up.

[Rodykitty]

I wonder why Lyn is in Upper Mid. The people that actually put her there are likely able to justify her position a lot better than anyone.

Actually, I don't even see an HHM tier list on this site.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Chainey

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Oh well. I misunderstood/misread that. Thought it was saying we were no longer allowed to go into giant debates mid topic.

I wonder why Lyn is in Upper Mid. The people that actually put her there are likely able to justify her position a lot better than anyone.

Actually, I don't even see an HHM tier list on this site.

That was back on gamefaqs where I read that. And there hhm tier list is gone to. This was like right before the tier lists started dieing over there.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Musashi

[Janissary]

Lyn is Mid IMO. Mainly due to her forced usage. Without Forced usage, I'd put her in Low to bottom tier. Yes, I think she is that bad.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Lyn is Mid IMO. Mainly due to her forced usage. Without Forced usage, I'd put her in Low to bottom tier. Yes, I think she is that bad.

I have no idea what to say to that. The amount of pretentiousness in this post just makes me lol.

Have you ever worked on a tier list? The amount of debates and arguements that goes into these would make your mind blow. They spent like 3000 something posts debating ilyana's position with several other units on the RD tier list on gamefaqs. Hell I used to debate in the RD tier list when the game first released.

If they put lyn in upper middle on the HHM tier list then honestly she must deserve to be there.

[Vykan12]

They spent like 3000 something posts debating ilyana's position with several other units on the RD tier list on gamefaqs.

Lol I was part of that, and trust me, gamefaq arguments are simply a combination of n00bish and extremely stubborn opinions, so the reason those debates go on so long is because neither side will ever concede a point.

Anyway, Chainey insisted I look at this topic because there was some anti-Lyn arguments going on. I'll address what I can find soon enough, though I think Leaf is probably the worst lord in the series.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Lol I was part of that, and trust me, gamefaq arguments are simply a combination of n00bish and extremely stubborn opinions, so the reason those debates go on so long is because neither side will ever concede a point.

Anyway, Chainey insisted I look at this topic because there was some anti-Lyn arguments going on. I'll address what I can find soon enough, though I think Leaf is probably the worst lord in the series.

Yea I remember several of them were just copying and pasting there prior statistics for each chapter debate per character. Hell they kept trying to change the subject of the debates to some other unit to end the war... it took a few weeks before things finally started rolling again.

[Vykan12]

Not to mention she's FORCED to join you on many chapters, taking up a character slot as well which is highly annoying.

First, note that nothing can be done about Lyn taking up a slot, so it shouldn’t be counted against her. Otherwise, the lords would probably all fall a few tiers.

Anyway, if you’re not using her, then taking up a slot is a detriment only if you cannot hide her in a corner. If you are using her, however, she comes for free, which you cannot say for most units. Hence, it’s an advantage she has over many units.

She uses swords, just like 90% of the good characters in the game. She is a redundant, and less effective, character.

By that logic, Lowen is bad for being your third cav, since now the cavalier class is getting redundant.

2. She will always lose the first promotion to Eliwood, as he helps you way more than her (horse utility, secondary lances>bows), and so she promotes with ~7 chapters left in the game.

What happens if you’re not using Eliwood?

3. She has a total of maybe 10 defensive and resistance stats by level 20 unpormoted. That blows when you can't dodge, which is far too often in HHM.

6 def actually. But wait, Guy has 8 at the same level before HHM bonuses. Then you have someone like Erk who has the same def but less avoid. And then consider Lyn has a 175% avoid growth, and tons of support partners, most of which are fast and give partial def and avo. Lyn may not have good durability, but it’s by no means a horrible abomination.

4. Her supports blow hardcore. They are all either sucky units or they want other supports. She gets Kent/Sain, maybe. You have to build your team around her, or else she gets nothing in the support area.

Okay, explain to me why Florina would not want a C support that takes 2 turns to build, and an overall support that takes 42. On a ranked run, fast supports are a blessing, so that one’s definitely happening.

Kent you already conceded, but why did you rule out Eliwood and Hector? Eliwood has no real alternatives. Assuming he takes Hector as his main partner, he has Ninian, Lowen, Fiora and Marcus, none of which are ideal pairings (one’s a dancer, the other has much better movement). That leaves Harken, who joins late. I definitely see room for Eliwood x Lyn.

As for Hector, we can easily rule out Florina, Fiora, Serra and Matthew (difference in mobility, healing, and thieving duties, respectively). So basically, Hector has to pass up either an Eliwood or Oswin support to take Lyn, which is feasible.

I don’t see any issues with Lyn’s supports, tbh.

Seriously though, she has suckish strength, and nothing can make up for that.

Prf weapon, crit from supports, buyable killing edges, almost always doubling, etc.

Edited March 3, 2009 by Vykan12

[Swordsalmon]

though I think Leaf is probably the worst lord in the series.

Leaf is pretty useful, though. He has a 60 use Proficient weapon that can heal and supports an enormous amount of characters. Benefitting strong characters like Fin, Hicks, and Asvel is a great boon. In addition, Leaf never fatigues.

What happens if you’re not using Eliwood?

Considering that he is pretty amazing by level 8-12, has superior durability and offense from Hector A, Lowen B, and gains a pony after promotion, using and promoting Eliwood is more beneficial than detrimential.

6 def actually. But wait, Guy has 8 at the same level before HHM bonuses. Then you have someone like Erk who has the same def but less avoid. And then consider Lyn has a 175% avoid growth, and tons of support partners, most of which are fast and give partial def and avo. Lyn may not have good durability, but it’s by no means a horrible abomination.

Level 20 Guy w/ Matthew A, Priscilla B, has 38 HP, 9 Defense, and 65% Avoid.

Level 20 Eliwood w/ Hector A, Lowen B, has 32 HP, 15 Defense, and 71% Avoid.

Level 20 Erk w/ Priscilla A, Serra C, has 29 HP, 8 Defense, and 55% Avoid.

Level 20 Lyn w/ Florina A, has 29 HP, 7 Defense, and 53% Avoid.

That's considering Lyn even gets Florina support. In addition, Guy and Erk are promoting right when they gets to level 20, while Lyn promotes either at Chapter 26 (Shafting the obviously superior Eliwood of promotion) or 28x.

And no, supports barely improve Lyn's durability. Florina A gives only +1 Defense, and virtually all her other options don't want to support her. Wil gives no defensive bonuses, and Rath only half Avoid.

Kent prefers Sain A, Fiora B for similar Movement.

Hector has Eliwood A, Oswin/Matthew B for speed.

Florina could be an A support, but she may prefer Fiora A for flier reasons.

Wil sucks.

Rath sucks.

Wallace doesn't exist.

Okay, explain to me why Florina would not want a C support that takes 2 turns to build, and an overall support that takes 42. On a ranked run, fast supports are a blessing, so that one’s definitely happening.

Kent you already conceded, but why did you rule out Eliwood and Hector? Eliwood has no real alternatives. Assuming he takes Hector as his main partner, he has Ninian, Lowen, Fiora and Marcus, none of which are ideal pairings (one’s a dancer, the other has much better movement). That leaves Harken, who joins late. I definitely see room for Eliwood x Lyn.

As for Hector, we can easily rule out Florina, Fiora, Serra and Matthew (difference in mobility, healing, and thieving duties, respectively). So basically, Hector has to pass up either an Eliwood or Oswin support to take Lyn, which is feasible.

I don’t see any issues with Lyn’s supports, tbh.

Because Florina has to fly around. Especially in the first few chapters, where Florina's high Movement is needed for.

-Saving the chests in Chapter 17.

-Best candidate to talk with Fargus in Chapter 17x.

-Killing Pegasus Knights and Shaman in Chapter 18.

-Waiting for Fiora in Chapter 19.

-Can gain extra experience in Chapter 19x by killing the Snipers.

-Candidate for ferrying Lyn to Legault in Chapter 20.

-Saving villages in Chapter 21.

So Florina's high Movement actually makes her best A support Fiora. The support speed is still very fast (52 turns for A support), and they can keep in support range much more easily.

Eliwood easily wants either Hector A, Lowen B, or Lowen B, Marcus B, Hector C. Movement problems aren't too difficult with the early chapters' size, and they provide full Avoid. Once Eliwood promotes, he can keep in range of Marcus and Lowen as well.

Hector has the entire game to support Matthew, and it's fairly fast and gives the same bonuses as Lyn.

Eliwood is almost always a given, as A support occurs in 27 turns, and gives 15 Avoid, 3 Defense, and 1 Attack.

Then Oswin B is another good option for full Avoid and similar Movement.

Serra gives full Defense and Avoid; ultimately beneficial for at least a C for Serra.

Also, Florina would be better off support Hector than Lyn. The latter is far faster, but Hector gives her full Defense and Critical.

Ultimately, the best support match-up for Hector would be either the following.

Eliwood A, Oswin B

Oswin A, Eliwood C, Serra C

Prf weapon, crit from supports, buyable killing edges, almost always doubling, etc.

Mani Katti lasts only 45 uses, and her durability is constantly awful. And of course, her supports are highly unlikely.

Edited March 4, 2009 by Swordsalmon

[Vykan12]

Leaf is pretty useful, though. He has a 60 use Proficient weapon that can heal and supports an enormous amount of characters. Benefitting strong characters like Fin, Hicks, and Asvel is a great boon. In addition, Leaf never fatigues.

I’ll get to Leaf later. Right now the focus seems to be on Lyn.

Considering that he is pretty amazing by level 8-12, has superior durability and offense from Hector A, Lowen B, and gains a pony after promotion, using and promoting Eliwood is more beneficial than detrimential.

That doesn’t ensure that Eliwood is used. In any hypothetical situation where he isn’t, Lyn gets the earlier promotion.

Level 20 Guy w/ Matthew A, Priscilla B, has 38 HP, 9 Defense, and 65% Avoid.

Level 20 Eliwood w/ Hector A, Lowen B, has 32 HP, 15 Defense, and 71% Avoid.

Level 20 Erk w/ Priscilla A, Serra C, has 29 HP, 8 Defense, and 55% Avoid.

Level 20 Lyn w/ Florina A, has 29 HP, 7 Defense, and 53% Avoid.

In a ranked/efficient run, proposing each character having a full support set before even promoting is absurd. Also, most of the characters you named would lose a lot more than Lyn by going unsupported, which doesn’t contradict my statement that her durability is poor but certainly not abysmal.

That's considering Lyn even gets Florina support.

Again, 2 turns for a C, 22 for a B, even if you don’t use Florina in the long run it’ll still probably take effect somewhere. Also, not using Florina has some pretty substantial drawbacks such as hurting your odds of getting 19x/xx, and obviously you want to formulate a team such that as many units get supports as possible, so I’d think the odds of Florina and Lyn being in play simultaneously are rather high.

In addition, Guy and Erk are promoting right when they gets to level 20, while Lyn promotes either at Chapter 26 (Shafting the obviously superior Eliwood of promotion) or 28x.

Indeed. If it weren’t for that, we wouldn’t be having this discussion at all. Though, all this really means is that Lyn either has to be used more sparingly than other units or is not fielded until her promotion option arises, which is simply an availability decrease. Or, you could just continue using her at the cost of the exp rank, which isn’t even an issue in non-ranked efficient runs.

Florina A gives only +1 Defense

And 7 avo. Also note that full boosts to atk and crit also serve as indirect durability boosts.

Kent prefers Sain A, Fiora B for similar Movement.

Hector has Eliwood A, Oswin/Matthew B for speed.

Florina could be an A support, but she may prefer Fiora A for flier reasons.

Individually, you could claim that. However, Lyn has 4 viable options (you forgot to list Eliwood), and assuming she mains in Florina, she only needs 1 secondary support out of those 3 remaining options. Collectively, that gives her pretty good odds at netting a full support set at some point.

Oh, and I forgot to mention, if Lyn isn’t attacking at lv 20 anymore, she can still provide some assistance to the team. For instance, she can focus more on building supports, giving support benefits, and perhaps even killing an enemy in an emergency situation, such as if a unit missed a hit you expected them to land and no healers were nearby.

Because Florina has to fly around. Especially in the first few chapters, where Florina's high Movement is needed for.

Even assuming she does fly around the majority of the time, Lyn’s support with her takes a fraction of the amount of time the average support does, so it’s faster regardless. And Florina will not always want to employ her full move, such as if there’s a ballistae range she’s trying to avert.

So Florina's high Movement actually makes her best A support Fiora. The support speed is still very fast (52 turns for A support), and they can keep in support range much more easily.

If Fiora is used, she could always settle for a B, or less ideally, Lyn could take a B with Florina and main with one of her 3 alternatives.

Eliwood easily wants either Hector A, Lowen B, or Lowen B, Marcus B, Hector C. Movement problems aren't too difficult with the early chapters' size, and they provide full Avoid. Once Eliwood promotes, he can keep in range of Marcus and Lowen as well.

Hector A, Lowen B is reasonable, though I’ve already covered why Eliwood and Marcus won’t make good support partners. It doesn’t matter if you think movement problems aren’t too difficult to manage in the earlygame, you’re still restricting Marcus’ freedom of movement to build/use that support, not a good thing in the least considering how vital Marcus is in the earlygame.

Hector has the entire game to support Matthew, and it's fairly fast and gives the same bonuses as Lyn.

If it gives the same bonuses, then why would Hector care one way or another? In fact, Hector would want Lyn more for being in range more often.

Then Oswin B is another good option for full Avoid and similar Movement.

Oswin has reasonable alternatives in Matthew, Priscilla, Dorcas and Serra.

Serra gives full Defense and Avoid; ultimately beneficial for at least a C for Serra.

And takes forever, not to mention Serra has a million other options (though they all take forever as well). Plus, before promotion, ending your turn adjacent to a unit who can’t attack is far from ideal if you’re looking for enemy phase exposure.

Also, Florina would be better off support Hector than Lyn. The latter is far faster, but Hector gives her full Defense and Critical.

? Lyn gives full critical as well. Also, 38 turns for a C, and that’s between an armoured unit and a flier. Not happening.

Mani Katti lasts only 45 uses

If you conserve it in Lyn mode, it’ll last her quite a long time, possibly long enough that the period in which her prf weapon is broken and buyable killer weapons aren’t available is minimal.

[Rodykitty]

First, note that nothing can be done about Lyn taking up a slot, so it shouldn’t be counted against her. Otherwise, the lords would probably all fall a few tiers.

On MSN, you stated that this was an advantage for Lyn, since it "semi-forces" the player to level her up.

I never argued against that, until now.

I believe Tier lists should encourage what a character can do for the player more than what the player can do for the character. Even with her being forced not being considered a disadvantage, I also do not think it is an inherent advantage for the player either.

Edited March 4, 2009 by Chainey

[Vykan12]

It is a controversial issue, that I will admit. However, when the game bears negative consequences for not raising a certain character (see: FE9-10 Ike), that has to be considered as something non-neutral.

[Raven]

The only Lord I've found to be more or less useless is Eirika... Especially during the beginning chapters. The best thing about her is the Rapier she carries. It's the only thing that saves her from entering the "totally shit" tier.

Edited March 4, 2009 by Raven