The Pride of Nola Feedback

[Deity]

For those of you who wish to comment, feedback, opinion, etc. on the story.

Yes, I wish to get better, but I hope any help you people give me here tends to be under the new rules system.

Edited March 11, 2009 by Deity

[Agro]

Let's do this, Shuuda-style! 行くわよ！

They came from all angles of the continent and were simply known as the Hand of *Kahn. ((*Name used for a Nolan God))

When you build a universe, try not to just give us facts, etc., etc. They're boring and look unprofessional. Try to incorporate it into the story.

He was buff and

In a fantasy-style world like this, the word "buff" is quite loose and could mean various things. He could be fat or muscular. "Buff" is also a very informal term, much like:

short gal

Blah blah blah quotes, incredibly boring. As Shuuda has pointed out before I find that there is too much telling and no showing. Some of the things that are explained to the reader aren't relevant to what's happening at the moment and are taking a toll on how the story is being told.

Another thing that is happening is the dreaded infodump. You're introducing too many characters at once, and because all you've done is give me information about them I have no idea who they are. Build one character at a time, and don't be in such a hurry for the reader to know who your character is. It's great for Rad to be buff but if the narrative has nothing to do with it then readers (like me) don't really care.

The first post is a great big lump of infodump that came from someone's ass. The way I see it, having eight characters at the very beginning of the story isn't the best place to start, although since this is a plot point there's not much I can do about it. Keep that in mind for your next story though.

[Shuuda]

Specific Points.

death dealers

Should be capitalised. It is a proper noun referring to something specificity.

“About time we stopped.” she seemed relieved.

"She" should be capitalised. It is following a full stop.

“You know what, Rad?” Sean spoke then

"Then" is not needed; in fact, it would be much better if you had kept it simple and had "Sean said".

letting him know he was more than eager to hear what he had to say.

Totally necessary line. When someone stares and nods at someone else, it is pretty obvious that they are giving their attention to that person.

“Kilvas is taking too long,” Sean related

A rather bad dialogue tag. A small quote regarding dialogue tags.

"dialogue tags: I'm a champion of "asked" and "said." They're the simplest, they're nearly invisible to most people (much like "he" and "she"), and they don't imply that your character is doing anything but speaking.

Yes, "asked" and "said" can become boring, but the constant use of "groaned," "yelled," "cried," and "interjected" isn't much better, especially when they're misused.

So, a brief crash course (of course, this is in what I find most offensive):

whisper- should only be used when the character is trying to be quiet or unnoticed. Having them whisper a shout is ridiculous.

groan, moan- have you ever actually tried to hear words in this sound? They might follow one, but they're unlikely to make it through.

hiss- your characters can only hiss something that actually has s's in it.

shout, cry, yell- these are violent words. Don't use them if the character is calm or has no reason to shout, cry, or yell.

interject- this means to put in the middle of something, as done by an interrupting character. If your character isn't interrupting anybody, don't use it.

smile, nod, shrug- should not be used. How do you "nod" words? For that matter, have you tried to grin widely and talk at the exact same time?"

- http://limyaael.livejournal.com/175234.html

Do not get hung up on using complex dialogue tags, as there are better ways to convey meaning; facial expressions, body language et cetra. Remember to KISS (Keep it simple, stupid).

General Points.

1) Please do not change the colour of the text. There is no decent reason to do so, and it is rather irritating to read all that red. Black is perfectly fine throughout.

2) You waste a lot of time with the unnecessary descriptions of Gen. You did not need to tell us that she has two nick-names, as dialogue should have done that for us. In general, having lots of nick-names is a bad idea, since I can spot some inconsistent naming in the narrative (she is referred to as Gen and Django by the narrator). Nick-names should be used by characters, the narrator should sick to using her proper name, or the most common name she is referred to as.

Also, the words you use holds up a big neon sign that says "designated love interest", this is also done by the constant stating that she is your self-insertion's girlfriend.

3) As usual, you have a problem with too much telling and infodumping. I cannot how many times I counted things that:

- Could have been explained later, then it actually became relevant to the plot.

- Was totally pointless and added nothing of interest to the story.

- Could have been better conveyed by showing.

The problem is that getting all of this unnecessary information is distracting the readers from what is going on in the here and now. You also throw away plenty of things that could have been withheld for later helping with character development.

4) And again, as usual, the problem with Rad and insertions in general. I believe I have already gone over this enough not to have to wear my fingers down going over it again.

[Deity]

Let's do this, Shuuda-style! 行くわよ！

When you build a universe, try not to just give us facts, etc., etc. They're boring and look unprofessional. Try to incorporate it into the story.

--It is ok to tell stuff ahead of time. I've read countless fantasy books where the narrator goes ahead of the story and explains. They even detail what happened in the past with characters.

In a fantasy-style world like this, the word "buff" is quite loose and could mean various things. He could be fat or muscular. "Buff" is also a very informal term, much like:

--I had no other word at that time, so I went with buff. I will replace it with broad, though.

Another thing that is happening is the dreaded infodump. You're introducing too many characters at once, and because all you've done is give me information about them I have no idea who they are. Build one character at a time, and don't be in such a hurry for the reader to know who your character is. It's great for Rad to be buff but if the narrative has nothing to do with it then readers (like me) don't really care.

--I agree I am introducing many characters at a time, but those will be the main ones for this one. If I thought of Rad as being a god, or the best, I would of had made him leader. For this one, he is not the leader, so I have improved on him a bit. He's still a warrior and does things any good warrior should do; like helping those out in need.

The first post is a great big lump of infodump that came from someone's ass. The way I see it, having eight characters at the very beginning of the story isn't the best place to start, although since this is a plot point there's not much I can do about it. Keep that in mind for your next story though.

I shall keep it in mind.

Specific Points.

Should be capitalised. It is a proper noun referring to something specificity.

--Yes, I missed that.

"She" should be capitalised. It is following a full stop.

--Yes, I totally forgot that. Will correct, though.

"Then" is not needed; in fact, it would be much better if you had kept it simple and had "Sean said".

Totally necessary line. When someone stares and nods at someone else, it is pretty obvious that they are giving their attention to that person.

--I shall remove it, it makes more sense without it.

General Points.

1) Please do not change the colour of the text. There is no decent reason to do so, and it is rather irritating to read all that red. Black is perfectly fine throughout.

--I find it fun to do so, I like different colors for the story.

2) You waste a lot of time with the unnecessary descriptions of Gen. You did not need to tell us that she has two nick-names, as dialogue should have done that for us. In general, having lots of nick-names is a bad idea, since I can spot some inconsistent naming in the narrative (she is referred to as Gen and Django by the narrator). Nick-names should be used by characters, the narrator should sick to using her proper name, or the most common name she is referred to as.

--Yes, I agree the nicknames wound up being a bad part. I shall stick to naming her Gen when narrating and let the characters call her either Django or Gem next time. I will go and correct the mistakes btw.

Also, the words you use holds up a big neon sign that says "designated love interest", this is also done by the constant stating that she is your self-insertion's girlfriend.

--She is just that, self inserted to give Rad someone to love. Tbh, most of the other characters will have a somebody from the forum, I just inserted Gen for Rad. And, I did show several signs, like the hand holding one. Moreover, I've read plenty books where the narrator describes two beings as boy and girlfriend, so I went on with that idea here.

3) As usual, you have a problem with too much telling and infodumping. I cannot how many times I counted things that:

- Could have been explained later, then it actually became relevant to the plot.

- Was totally pointless and added nothing of interest to the story.

- Could have been better conveyed by showing.

The problem is that getting all of this unnecessary information is distracting the readers from what is going on in the here and now. You also throw away plenty of things that could have been withheld for later helping with character development.

--Instead of throwing, I actually show something ahead of time, though I don't tell you exactly what it is. Sure, you could have known that Ether got saved by Rad because he gave him a chance at life, you, however, don't know how it happened, you just know it happened. As to Freohr, I mentioned something about Rad knowing about her past life. Again, he knows, but I did not throw away anything yet, he just knows about her, the reader does not.

Thx for the help and tips, I shall correct the mistakes soon.

--Edit--Edited.

Edited March 10, 2009 by Deity

[Shuuda]

--It is ok to tell stuff ahead of time. I've read countless fantasy books where the narrator goes ahead of the story and explains. They even detail what happened in the past with characters.

"Other books do it" is never an acceptable excuse on its own, since a lot of bad books can get published. What books in particular are you talking about?

any good warrior should do; like helping those out in need.

"Helping those in need" is what charity workers, law enforcements and what not do. Warriors fight battles, killing people:

According to the Random House Dictionary, the term warrior has two meanings. The first literal use refers to "a person engaged or experienced in warfare." The second figurative use refers to "a person who shows or has shown great vigor, courage, or aggressiveness, as in politics or athletics."

- Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrior

A "good warrior" is more liking referring to somebody who kills tons of people and doesn't die himself, Not someone who helps poor people.

--I find it fun to do so, I like different colors for the story.

Fun for you, irritation for others.

--She is just that, self inserted to give Rad someone to love. Tbh, most of the other characters will have a somebody from the forum, I just inserted Gen for Rad. And, I did show several signs, like the hand holding one. Moreover, I've read plenty books where the narrator describes two beings as boy and girlfriend, so I went on with that idea here.

So you intentionally handled your female character badly? Adding a female character just as a love interest is not only sexist, but just plain patronising. And once more, just saying "other books do it" is in no way acceptable, as I doubt that you did any thorough analysis of any of these books. Like I said earlier, bad books can get published, there is just as much crap in "professional" work as there is anywhere else. Do not thing that just because it is published, that it is actually good to copy from. Designated Love Interests are something that should always be avoided.

Here is some more reading on the subject: http://limyaael.livejournal.com/377262.html

In short: Don’t create a love interest to “complement” or “reward” the protagonist.

I actually show something ahead of time

Here is an idea: instead of distracting us by tell us things ahead of time, why not try giving us the information when it actually becomes relevant to the plot... when we actually need to give a damn about it.

And another idea: instead of just telling us things in a bog standard boring manner in the narrative, try using a more interesting way to convey important information, dialogue for example. In other words, show it.

Edited March 10, 2009 by Shuuda

[Deity]

"Other books do it" is never an acceptable excuse on its own, since a lot of bad books can get published. What books in particular are you talking about?

--If you've read a book about Wizards of the Coast, then you know what I am talking about. It's like a club of several fantasy writers.

"Helping those in need" is what charity workers, law enforcements and what not do. Warriors fight battles, killing people:

According to the Random House Dictionary, the term warrior has two meanings. The first literal use refers to "a person engaged or experienced in warfare." The second figurative use refers to "a person who shows or has shown great vigor, courage, or aggressiveness, as in politics or athletics."

- Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrior

A "good warrior" is more liking referring to somebody who kills tons of people and doesn't die himself, Not someone who helps poor people.

--Anyway, there are heroes or warriors who help those in need. Take for instance Drizzt Do'Urden. He was a dark drow but never liked to be evil like his race. Instead, he had feelings like those of a normal human being. Sometimes, IRL, by helping someone out, you become a hero. Yes, I did mention that Rad was a warrior, also referred to as a mercenary. But outside of that job he also does other stuff, not just kill.

Fun for you, irritation for others.

--I really don't care if others are irritated. It's up to them to read if they want to. If some other dude or girl writes a story here, I will simply go and read it regardless of how they post it; it doesn't matter to me what color they use, what font, etc. If I want to read it, I will, that stuff wont keep me from reading it.

So you intentionally handled your female character badly? Adding a female character just as a love interest is not only sexist, but just plain patronising. And once more, just saying "other books do it" is in no way acceptable, as I doubt that you did any thorough analysis of any of these books. Like I said earlier, bad books can get published, there is just as much crap in "professional" work as there is anywhere else. Do not thing that just because it is published, that it is actually good to copy from. Designated Love Interests are something that should always be avoided.

Here is some more reading on the subject: http://limyaael.livejournal.com/377262.html

In short: Don’t create a love interest to “complement” or “reward” the protagonist.

Here is an idea: instead of distracting us by tell us things ahead of time, why not try giving us the information when it actually becomes relevant to the plot... when we actually need to give a damn about it.

--I did not intentionally handled her badly. She is a regular character in the story, which happens to be Rad's GF. Some time went by before the start of the story, and so they were already boy and girlfriend. Had they not been that, then I wouldn't of had mentioned it, right? Vice versa.

And another idea: instead of just telling us things in a bog standard boring manner in the narrative, try using a more interesting way to convey important information, dialogue for example. In other words, show it.

--I am trying, that is all that matters.

I bolded out the responses.

Edited March 10, 2009 by Deity

[Shuuda]

--If you've read a book about Wizards of the Coast, then you know what I am talking about. It's like a club of several fantasy writers.

Well, a quick trip to wikipedia tells me:

Wizards of the Coast (often referred to as WotC or simply Wizards) is an American publisher of games, primarily based on fantasy and science fiction themes. Originally a basement-run role-playing game publisher, the company popularized the collectible card game genre with Magic: The Gathering in the mid-1990s, acquired the popular Dungeons & Dragons role-playing game by purchasing the failing company TSR, and experienced tremendous success by publishing the licensed Pokémon Trading Card Game.

Does not mention anything about writing good books, just shit that is based off Dungeon's and Dragons. DnD (and other generic role play fantasy game) stereotypes are the bane of fantasy writing, so fuck them.

You have yet to give me a reason why "Oh these books do it" is an acceptable excuse on its own.

By the way, I am not saying that DnD itself is shit, just novels that are based/ or take stereotypes from it.

Take for instance Drizzt Do'Urden. He was a dark drow but never liked to be evil like his race. Instead, he had feelings like those of a normal human being. Sometimes, IRL, by helping someone out, you become a hero. Yes, I did mention that Rad was a warrior, also referred to as a mercenary. But outside of that job he also does other stuff, not just kill.

Underlined the part where I gave up interest, as it sounded like a crap sense of morality. The minute that a race in a book can be universally grouped as evil (regardless of one or two exceptions) is the minute it becomes unappealing. Sorry, but if this is your inspiration, then I am unimpressed. Besides, everyone knows that the Dunmer are far greater than those pussies.

And I already mentioned that a "good warrior" would be a warrior who is good at his job. Helping the needy is all well and good, but it doesn't help his career much.

--I really don't care if others are irritated.

Typical of you. What if someone who was colour blind wanted to read it, but could not because he could not tell the red from the background? Accessibility is important! Stop being so selfish!

She is a regular character in the story, which happens to be Rad's GF. Some time went by before the start of the story, and so they were already boy and girlfriend. Had they not been that, then I wouldn't of had mentioned it, right? Vice versa.

I am not sure if you understood my point. It is not about the romance in general, it is more to do with what the purpose of that character is, and how that character is built up. Designated Love Interests tend to be cardboard cut-outs.

--I am trying, that is all that matters.

Perhaps it would be a good idea for me to point out that this issue of infodumping and telling is one that I am often having to reinforce. So either you are not trying... or... well, if you were trying, you would have realised the problem by now.

Edited March 11, 2009 by Shuuda

[Deity]

Well, a quick trip to wikipedia tells me:

Does not mention anything about writing good books, just shit that is based off Dungeon's and Dragons. DnD (and other generic role play fantasy game) stereotypes are the bane of fantasy writing, so fuck them.

You have yet to give me a reason why "Oh these books do it" is an acceptable excuse on its own.

--Wizards of the coast is club of writers. Maybe you just read the first thing that popped up or are just making believe that you do not know what I am talking about.

And I already mentioned that a "good warrior" would be a warrior who is good at his job. Helping the needy is all well and good, but it doesn't help his career much.

--Oh but it does, if he's trying to be seen as a good hero/warrior whatever you wanna call it.

Typical of you. What if someone who was colour blind wanted to read it, but could not because he could not tell the red from the background? Accessibility is important! Stop being so selfish!

--I am not selfish at all. If someone had that problem, all they had to do was pm me and let me know about it. Chances are slim, though of having color blind people here. We would of known by now.

I am not sure if you understood my point. It is not about the romance in general, it is more to do with what the purpose of that character is, and how that character is built up. Designated Love Interests tend to be cardboard cut-outs.

Perhaps it would be a good idea for me to point out that this issue of infodumping and telling is one that I am often having to reinforce. So either you are not trying... or... well, if you were trying, you would have realised the problem by now.

--I might know how to be able to improve on this. I might turn away from this type of writing and into a more non-serious style. It will still be self inserts, though the writing will look something like this:

Rad- Hey, let's go over to that forest there, I think I saw a figure moving.

Gen- (Disapproving with shake of head) No, lets just get out of here, Rad.

A shout is heard

Sean- Rad, come here. We found our killer!

ETC.

Bold, like always.

Edited March 11, 2009 by Deity

[Agro]

Rad- Hey, let's go over to that forest there, I think I saw a figure moving.

Gen- (Disapproving with shake of head) No, lets just get out of here, Rad.

A shout is heard

Sean- Rad, come here. We found our killer!

Not trying to spark an argument or anything, but isn't that... a script fic?

[Shuuda]

--I am not selfish at all.

Orly? Explain this then:

I just have one request; can you stop quoting the whole of Shuuda's posts? Seeing as he's the only one above you, and no posters in between, there's no need to quote, and it's taking up unnecessary page space and lagging my little precious computer. No, this isn't a mini-mod, this is a request from a fellow member. Good day. I'll get around to reading your story in just a moment.

I don't see anyone else protesting but you. If I quote Shuuda, its because I have to, so he can know I am referring to him, not that I just wanna do it for fun. And lagging is your problem, not mine. Wait no, that's your computer's problem, so deal with pc. XD

--Wizards of the coast is club of writers. Maybe you just read the first thing that popped up or are just making believe that you do not know what I am talking about.

Well, the Wizards of the Coast I found have published novels, so... you know. How about a direction or a link, since they seem insignificant to Google.

By the way, you have yet to actually give me a reason why I should accept "Oh these books do it" as an excuse.

Edited March 11, 2009 by Shuuda

[Deity]

Not trying to spark an argument or anything, but isn't that... a script fic?

Indeed, it is. They are not forbidden, are they?

Because that is the style I am going to adapt to so I can finally get it through Shuuda's head that my stories are not meant to be serious.

Orly? Explain this then:

--You call that being selfish? What people do in this forum tends not to bother me in the least. What I mean by that is simple; if you go on quoting other members like I did there, I am not one to go and bitch about it. If I have a bad connection, slow computer, etc. that is not the other members' problems, it would be my own problem, and so I have to take what I get. Besides, he just came and bitched about it here in feedback or wherever it was. Why doesn't he tell the others if he really has a problem with that sort of thing?

Well, the Wizards of the Coast I found have published novels, so... you know. How about a direction or a link, since they seem insignificant to Google.

--I don't want to. Not because I am lazy to give you the link, but because I know that even with the link you will still keep on ranting about how I should change this and that. So no.

By the way, you have yet to actually give me a reason why I should accept "Oh these books do it" as an excuse.

--I think I really don't have to. As I have said many times, we all have our styles of writing. If you can't understand that, then I don't know what your problem is.

Again, bolded my answers.

Edited March 11, 2009 by Deity

[Shuuda]

I can finally get it through Shuuda's head that my stories are not meant to be serious.

You pretty much gave away that right the minute you made boast claims about being a good writer... want me to fish them quote out for you? It only makes sense that someone with a lot of pride should be judged by higher standards.

--You call that being selfish? What people do in this forum tends not to bother me in the least.

Lachesis asked you for one simple favour, and your response was to blow it back at him rudely. By contrast, you expect everyone to abide by your wishes. This is both selfish and hypocritical.

--I don't want to. Not because I am lazy to give you the link, but because I know that even with the link you will still keep on ranting about how I should change this and that. So no.

So in other words; you are unable to debate. If you are so sure that your style is good enough, why not thoroughly prove it once and for all? Yes, I will challenge what you post, it's what intelligent people do in discussions; but surely if you are so right then you can create a reasonable argument.

If you are unwilling to prove the existence of this source, why should I believe it to exist? Thus any backing you claim to get from that source is meaningless. Just one of the many reason why referencing is important.

--I think I really don't have to. As I have said many times, we all have our styles of writing. If you can't understand that, then I don't know what your problem is.

Yes you do. We all have our own styles, yes; you still need to give us reasons why we should see your style as acceptable. Just saying "it's my style" to escape criticism is very much similar to saying "it's my opinion". Neither work, and are not reasons enough to protect your style/opinion from scrutiny.

You are the one who does not understand. Bad styles exist. You cannot defect criticism with weasel strawman comments. If you try to say that your style is good without any proper backing, then I can say that your style is bad with equal validity.

Edited March 11, 2009 by Shuuda

[Deity]

You pretty much gave away that right the minute you made boast claims about being a good writer... want me to fish them quote out for you? It only makes sense that someone with a lot of pride should be judged by higher standards.

Lachesis asked you for one simple favour, and your response was to blow it back at him rudely. By contrast, you expect everyone to abide by your wishes. This is both selfish and hypocritical.

--According to your own views, because we spite each other.

So in other words; you are unable to debate. If you are so sure that your style is good enough, why not thoroughly prove it once and for all? Yes, I will challenge what you post, it's what intelligent people do in discussions; but surely if you are so right then you can create a reasonable argument.

If you are unwilling to prove the existence of this source, why should I believe it to exist? Thus any backing you claim to get from that source is meaningless. Just one of the many reason why referencing is important.

Yes you do. We all have our own styles, yes; you still need to give us reasons why we should see your style as acceptable. Just saying "it's my style" to escape criticism is very much similar to saying "it's my opinion". Neither work, and are not reasons enough to protect your style/opinion from scrutiny.

--This is not an area for debates.

--Any style should be acceptable, specially since this is a forum and what I post is not intended as serious stories. You do not accept my style but you do think other self inserts or script fics are fine, how convenient.

You are the one who does not understand. Bad styles exist. You cannot defect criticism with weasel strawman comments. If you try to say that your style is good without any proper backing, then I can say that your style is bad with equal validity.

--I do not need to show proper backing. Where are you going with all this? Yes, bad styles exist, are you insulting my writing? Because if you are, then you are insulting yourself as well. Your writing style suffers too, thus making it a bad style, right? Until you prove to me that you can actually write a chapter with no mistakes, then I will believe your style is a good style, otherwise, it's a bad style just like mine.

And remember this is actually feedback, not a debate section or a place where you can strive to make a writer change his way of writing.

Edited March 11, 2009 by Deity

[Shuuda]

--This is not an area for debates.

Debates can happen anywhere there is a conflict... so yes, this is perfect place to debate your story. Feedback takes countless forms.

Because if you are, then you are insulting yourself as well. Your writing style suffers too, thus making it a bad style, right? Until you prove to me that you can actually write a chapter with no mistakes

As usual, you are unable to defend yourself, thus you have to resort to changing this into a discussion on my work, regardless of how off-topic it is. But fear not, I was prepared for this:

The thing you seem to have forgotten is that I am not criticising the style of writing, but the style of story-telling; two different things. What is the strong correlation between my typos, and your bad story-telling? I am more than accepting of the typos and mistakes I make, hence why I retroactively edit work. By contrast, the problem of bad story-telling is consistent throughout your work.

All my firm, ongoing points have all revolved around Story-telling style: Infodumping, bad characterisation, bad plotting and themes.

--I do not need to show proper backing.

Yes you do. Otherwise nobody has any reason to believe you.

Do not worry Jarly: if things come to the worst, you can always play the "Abuse my Heron powers" card.

Edited March 11, 2009 by Shuuda