So what would make archers good?

[grandjackal]

So what game in the series do you believe did archers justice?

Also, what would it take to make dark mages be more then bleh?

Of course it's an opinions thing, so lets not break out into fights, shall we?

[Florete]

Snipers/Marksmen were pretty great in RD. It's more the characters than the class itself, but getting 1-3 range helped a lot.

And Dark mages...it's not that the class sucks, it's that every one we've gotten has been bad (or mediocre at best, like Ray and Canas). We need a dark mage that comes early with decent bases and growths like any good character.

[grandjackal]

Snipers/Marksmen were pretty great in RD. It's more the characters than the class itself, but getting 1-3 range helped a lot.

And Dark mages...it's not that the class sucks, it's that every one we've gotten has been bad (or mediocre at best, like Ray and Canas). We need a dark mage that comes early with decent bases and growths like any good character.

Yeah, Shinon was proof archers don't have to suck. It however is true the class is subpar comparing, what with the no counter deal. At least with crossbows it made it more a weakness than a downright liability. 3 range did help too. FE4 though should get honorable mentions for basically having archers that would kill whatever they targeted with hero bow duelist Midayle, skill overkill Jamka and lolIchival Bridget.

Dark mages though are a tricky bunch. Their magic was best in FE7 (Flux is a great bread and butter spell, Nosferatu is unique in use along with Luna, Fenrir being godly powerful yet heavy to be an all or nothing attack), but Canas himself wasn't bad, just meh. Dark magic is great, but it's users suck. Canas at least had durability and Nosferatu, they just didn't give him any good supports. If one came early with good stat growth, he'd be broken to hell and back.

[Rei Rei]

FE2 Bowmen, that's all. 'cept nerfing them with 1~2 range, not with 1~5.

[grandjackal]

FE2 Bowmen, that's all. 'cept nerfing them with 1~2 range, not with 1~5.

Forgot about them. They were indeed nuts. Nerfing them to 1-2 range though would be rather pointless. 1-2 range unequipped, 1-3 when equipped sounds fair, so they don't get to just stand back 110 miles away and safely open fire on anything.

[Fia]

FE2 Bowmen, that's all. 'cept nerfing them with 1~2 range, not with 1~5.

This.

And why should you nerf them? Let them be broken like that. 8D

[Rei Rei]

Forgot about them. They were indeed nuts. Nerfing them to 1-2 range though would be rather pointless. 1-2 range unequipped, 1-3 when equipped sounds fair, so they don't get to just stand back 110 miles away and safely open fire on anything.

Tch, 1~3 range is cheap already, but whatever.

This.

And why should you nerf them? Let them be broken like that. 8D

Balance, FE2 was torturing

[grandjackal]

Tch, 1~3 range is cheap already, but whatever.

Not as much as 1-5 range, bows are still not very accurate in that game, being 2 spaces closer and missing would suck.

[Rei Rei]

Not as much as 1-5 range, bows are still not very accurate in that game, being 2 spaces closer and missing would suck.

You still have no retaliation whatsoever.Stick to the Longbows, IMO.

[grandjackal]

You still have no retaliation whatsoever.Stick to the Longbows, IMO.

Actually, there's mages. Another thing is that the archers you get are actually very slow. Thunder has the same range.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Bows keep their standard range (or make it 2-3, whatever) and have them use Ballistae as their secondary weapon on every outdoor map at any time. Probably reduce the damage they make with Ballistae to (STR/2 + MT).

If you give then 1-2 range for their bows, they're basically like mages that target DEF... meh.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Sirius

[Rakath]

I think the Marksmen Auto+1 Range was a pretty effective means to make them not suck. While it was mostly Shinon being awesome.

In the same vein as that having their range be 1-2 but with melee range having a lower acc/power (similar to how Longbow range has a lower Acc in FE10).

Dark Magic users really need a better HP if they are going to be Magical tanks. If you're going to be high power low acc you need SOMETHING to back up the fact that you're going to MISS very often.

[Rei Rei]

Actually, there's mages. Another thing is that the archers you get are actually very slow. Thunder has the same range.

Mages usually have less health than archers, though.

[grandjackal]

I think the Marksmen Auto+1 Range was a pretty effective means to make them not suck. While it was mostly Shinon being awesome.

In the same vein as that having their range be 1-2 but with melee range having a lower acc/power (similar to how Longbow range has a lower Acc in FE10).

Dark Magic users really need a better HP if they are going to be Magical tanks. If you're going to be high power low acc you need SOMETHING to back up the fact that you're going to MISS very often.

Well Leonardo had his uses, but the archer class didn't suck in FE10, Shinon was basically the proof.

Dark mage accuracy is not that bad really, and for mages they're tanky. If they were made tanky even before Nosferatu, they'd be too good. They'd make FE DS Sedgar look like a punk with magic damage considered.

EDIT: To Kenshiro: Mages also use magic and are decently fast, archers are in reality pretty slow, they'd murder archers.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Grandjackal

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Wait, how exactly are dark mages tanky?

[Mekkah]

I'd say the Archer class still wasn't great in FE10. The only time they had redemption was in endgame, after Mr Double Bow fainted. Before that, Crossbows don't add much except against fliers or when equipped with Beastfoe sometimes. It's just that Shinon had good stats. Wyverns not being weak to bows anymore didn't help their case either.

Making ballistae much more prominent or equipped would be a very good step towards improving their effectiveness, since then they become much easier to shield while still doing damage, and in addition they won't need to take a counter from anything at all. Not much else you can do - bows already have amazing stats as weapons (light, accurate, but still fairly strong), and making something like an Armorslaying bow seems a bit unfair when they are already effective against fliers.

[grandjackal]

I'd say the Archer class still wasn't great in FE10. The only time they had redemption was in endgame, after Mr Double Bow fainted. Before that, Crossbows don't add much except against fliers or when equipped with Beastfoe sometimes. It's just that Shinon had good stats. Wyverns not being weak to bows anymore didn't help their case either.

Making ballistae much more prominent or equipped would be a very good step towards improving their effectiveness, since then they become much easier to shield while still doing damage, and in addition they won't need to take a counter from anything at all. Not much else you can do - bows already have amazing stats as weapons (light, accurate, but still fairly strong), and making something like an Armorslaying bow seems a bit unfair when they are already effective against fliers.

Most of the good units have good stats, the fact he still compares as an archer is a good sign forward. Yeah though, I dunno why they got rid of a wyvern weakness. As if they weren't strong enough.

Also, dark mages become tanky when they get Nosferatu, while still being decently durable on their own. Most of them anyways...

[Metal Rabbit]

Wait, how exactly are dark mages tanky?

think magic tank, but that only applies if they have great resistance.

[Rakath]

think magic tank, but that only applies if they have great resistance.

Well, depending on game and character they generally have above par DEF growth (for Magic users anyway) and high Res growth without sacrificing Magic Growth. Most of them have a pretty good HP growth, in the 60-70% range.

Tome wise, Dark tomes have a higher weight and Might, with lower Hit in most cases. Light tomes generally have lower weight and might with a higher hit. And Anima walks the line between them. Their tomes also generally come with bonus tricks. However those tricks generally mean the Tome has a really low hit (Looking at you Eclipse tome).

If they had better starting stats, and Def Growths on par with non-magic units (somewhere in the 40-50 range, if not higher) they could be really effective. Especially if they always get utility tomes like Nos and Luna.

While FE10 has Dark Magic, the set-up for Might/Weight/Hit done for Light/Dark/Anima is done for Wind/Thunder/Fire in the Tellius games. Light Magic is still relatively low weight/might with higher hit, and Dark is a bit less about hitting and more about power. However Pelleas has some rather effective growths in all areas, so he makes the Darkness look good in that game if you recruit him.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Rakath

[General Spoon]

Archers in FE2 are quite good. 1-3 unequipped, and 1-5 range equipped. Lets them stand pretty far back and shoot at stuff.

[grandjackal]

Well, depending on game and character they generally have above par DEF growth (for Magic users anyway) and high Res growth without sacrificing Magic Growth. Most of them have a pretty good HP growth, in the 60-70% range.

Tome wise, Dark tomes have a higher weight and Might, with lower Hit in most cases. Light tomes generally have lower weight and might with a higher hit. And Anima walks the line between them. Their tomes also generally come with bonus tricks. However those tricks generally mean the Tome has a really low hit (Looking at you Eclipse tome).

If they had better starting stats, and Def Growths on par with non-magic units (somewhere in the 40-50 range, if not higher) they could be really effective. Especially if they always get utility tomes like Nos and Luna.

While FE10 has Dark Magic, the set-up for Might/Weight/Hit done for Light/Dark/Anima is done for Wind/Thunder/Fire in the Tellius games. Light Magic is still relatively low weight/might with higher hit, and Dark is a bit less about hitting and more about power. However Pelleas has some rather effective growths in all areas, so he makes the Darkness look good in that game if you recruit him.

Nosferatu and Luna are incredibly effective, probably the two best spells in the game. You get both incredibly early too, they're nuts. Canas is average and would be pretty bad if it weren't for the fact he could use these spells anyways. Dark magic's tricks are incredible. Eclipse sucks anyways though.

Pelleas can't make magic look good, as no mage can make their magic look good unless you're Callil with rexflame. Magic honestly sucks in FE10, and Pelleas is bleh. Dark magic also lacks Nosferatu and Luna, making it anima magic 1.5.

[General Spoon]

Nosferatu and Luna are incredibly effective, probably the two best spells in the game. You get both incredibly early too, they're nuts. Canas is average and would be pretty bad if it weren't for the fact he could use these spells anyways. Dark magic's tricks are incredible. Eclipse sucks anyways though.

Pelleas can't make magic look good, as no mage can make their magic look good unless you're Callil with rexflame. Magic honestly sucks in FE10, and Pelleas is bleh. Dark magic also lacks Nosferatu and Luna, making it anima magic 1.5.

It also doesn't help that enemies in FE10 actually have resistance.

[grandjackal]

It also doesn't help that enemies in FE10 actually have resistance.

On top of all that, the mages suck anyways. Illyana blows, Callil has little time to get good, Pelleas is even worse off and doesn't get Rexflame, Soren is way too slow and Tormod is just....bleh...

[Rakath]

Nosferatu and Luna are incredibly effective, probably the two best spells in the game. You get both incredibly early too, they're nuts. Canas is average and would be pretty bad if it weren't for the fact he could use these spells anyways. Dark magic's tricks are incredible. Eclipse sucks anyways though.

Pelleas can't make magic look good, as no mage can make their magic look good unless you're Callil with rexflame. Magic honestly sucks in FE10, and Pelleas is bleh. Dark magic also lacks Nosferatu and Luna, making it anima magic 1.5.

Luna got gimped in FE8 with its Hit rate of 50, but yes, both of those spells are what make Dark Magic not Anima or Light. And due to how Dark Magic users have rather unusual growths (which if they just tweaked them a bit more buffed they'd work as how they are supposed to. Just give them some more DEF growth) those two books are about the only reason to use Dark Mages.

If Pelleas had those two magics in FE10 he'd of been unstoppable with his growth rates. Since he can cap all the required stats to make things work in FE10. However Luna was returned to being a Skill and Resire went back to being Light. So he became a little bit useless. Although he's probably the only Dark Mage of late with a shot to predictably double, since he has a Speed Growth rate and an Str growth rate (and while it seems useless, Balberith's Str+3 makes it easier to handle its 15 weight).

[grandjackal]

Luna got gimped in FE8 with its Hit rate of 50, but yes, both of those spells are what make Dark Magic not Anima or Light. And due to how Dark Magic users have rather unusual growths (which if they just tweaked them a bit more buffed they'd work as how they are supposed to. Just give them some more DEF growth) those two books are about the only reason to use Dark Mages.

If Pelleas had those two magics in FE10 he'd of been unstoppable with his growth rates. Since he can cap all the required stats to make things work in FE10. However Luna was returned to being a Skill and Resire went back to being Light. So he became a little bit useless. Although he's probably the only Dark Mage of late with a shot to predictably double, since he has a Speed Growth rate and an Str growth rate (and while it seems useless, Balberith's Str+3 makes it easier to handle its 15 weight).

To be honest, I don't know WHY they made Nosferatu and Luna non-existent to dark magic in FE10 (aside from the whole Resire in older games being light magic deal), they'd have made Pelleas more an important unit rather than a gimmick.

Yeah, Luna got gimped in FE8, but FE7 did it best as Luna had more use outside of the final chapter (helping kill the hardass sage bosses for example). FE7 did dark magic the best, as the only reason Nosferatu and Luna were so good was because enemy units were slow as hell. They'd still be good if the enemies were faster, just not overpowered, and Flux is a great bread and butter spell. However, spells like Eclipse became useless because enemies weren't durable enough to warrent using it, and Fenrir was useless because enemies weren't fast enough to warrent such a huge powered and heavy spell to weaken them to easy kill levels. Dark magic would have been perfect then.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Grandjackal