Efficiency Tier List?

[dondon151]

Better options don't exist, and +1 supports aren't that bad in this game. Chapters are long and very accommodating to support-building (often you have stretches of just advancing without attacking much). +1 supports are more viable in this game than +2s in FE7.

+2 supports in FE7 take 40 turns per level while +1 supports in FE6 take 60 turns per level (80 for A). The turn count for an efficient FE7 completion is around 310. You're implying that it takes more than 465 turns to complete FE6 efficiently, which is gratuitous even if half of the game's maps were like chapter 8 (they're not). +1 supports are bad; 1 +1 supports are total garbage because compared to something like GeesexCath (let's pretend Cath was not a garbage character) that's 20 +1, the C support and consequently every other support is happening something like 2 to 3 whole chapters later.

Edited June 21, 2009 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

+2 supports in FE7 take 40 turns per level while +1 supports in FE6 take 60 turns per level (80 for A). The turn count for an efficient FE7 completion is around 310. You're implying that it takes more than 465 turns to complete FE6 efficiently, which is gratuitous even if half of the game's maps were like chapter 8 (they're not). +1 supports are bad; 1 +1 supports are total garbage because compared to something like GeesexCath (let's pretend Cath was not a garbage character) that's 20 +1, the C support and consequently every other support is happening something like 2 to 3 whole chapters later.

He's not aiming for an A with either of these characters.

[dondon151]

I know, I only pointed out that it takes 80 turns to get an A for the sake of avoiding pointless nitpicks.

[grandjackal]

I know, I only pointed out that it takes 80 turns to get an A for the sake of avoiding pointless nitpicks.

Then ask yourself what their faster options for a B are?

Answer is none. Anyone can take the B slot at any time, as they're the same speed. The bonuses are of little benefit as they're generally the same regardless.

Only competition for Lalum's B is Douglas, and the only reason why is because it's much faster.

[dondon151]

Part of considering a support means that it has to happen within a reasonable time frame.

"Oh Geese will get B with Lalum and Echidna too bad it won't happen until chapter 20"

[grandjackal]

Part of considering a support means that it has to happen within a reasonable time frame.

"Oh Geese will get B with Lalum and Echidna too bad it won't happen until chapter 20"

And this is different from the rest of their supporters...how?

[dondon151]

It's not, but saying that this support triangle is viable when all they're giving before like chapter 20 is token bonuses undermines the concept of a support triangle.

[Colonel M]

As for Roy and Shin, you forget Roy can whip out his wyrmslayer. However, I don't think I would discuss this, as I do not use Shin too often. If someone more knowing would like to discuss it..

Wyrmslayer is shaky. One problem is it's better used on Mamkutes in the first place which give us a shitload of trouble. Then factor the low amount AND amount of uses, and we have issues.

[grandjackal]

It's not, but saying that this support triangle is viable when all they're giving before like chapter 20 is token bonuses undermines the concept of a support triangle.

Considering this is the same case for all their supporters...

I think it needs to be discussed over, on when exactly supports are kicking in. Chapter 20 for that triangle sounds reasonable, as does DeickxClarine's C kickin in by the time Klein shows up, while Deick and Rutger could get things started around chapter 8 due to move difference.

How to figure this out?

[Reikken]

+2 supports in FE7 take 40 turns per level while +1 supports in FE6 take 60 turns per level (80 for A). The turn count for an efficient FE7 completion is around 310. You're implying that it takes more than 465 turns to complete FE6 efficiently, which is gratuitous even if half of the game's maps were like chapter 8 (they're not). +1 supports are bad; 1 +1 supports are total garbage because compared to something like GeesexCath (let's pretend Cath was not a garbage character) that's 20 +1, the C support and consequently every other support is happening something like 2 to 3 whole chapters later.

Yes, that is indeed what I'm implying.

Long chapters like ch 8 are about 28 turns. Other chapters are like 17 or something.

In comparison, FE7's chapters tend to be more around 10-11 turns.

Here's a partial turn-count log for one of my plays:

1 - 9

2 - 9

3 - 15

4 - 11

5 - 15

6 - 18

7 - 17

8 - 29

8x- 16

9 - 19

10- 13

11- 21

and I always go for low turn counts, with few exceptions: I stalled on 11 so that I could get everything. It takes a while for those green units to gtfo, especially considering how late you recruit Tate.

Also, FE6's tactics requirement for the best tactics score is over 600 turns, giving you more than twice as much time per chapter to S as in FE7.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage....;topic=49911250

"At the end of chapter 23 I made a save state and experimented on how many turns are allowed, so we finally have a definite guideline for the tactics rank. You are allowed exactly 610 turns at the end of chapter 23. That is with Lalum and Sacae routes. I didn't check requirements for Final and Final-2 as I would have to sit through the whole epilogue each time to see if my tactics changed, but I'm guessing it's 40 turns for those two combined, that would result in a nice round 650 turns total."

Not only are chapters more than 50% longer than in FE7, which already makes +1 > +2inFE7, but also you have more ...free time. ie "stretches of just advancing without attacking much". A larger portion of those turns can be used to build supports.

Edited June 21, 2009 by Reikken

[A2ZOMG]

Osnap, I should have known this earlier when debating you, but that probably still wouldn't have mattered a whole ton. XD

Also...whoa whoa Thany in the lowest tiers? That's a bit much, considering how badly I got beaten by Reikken lmao.

Even without the whole exp rank stuff, Thany helps you get to Ilia (which iirc is significantly easier than Sacae of course). And then she's one of the best supporters for Deak and Lot, who are both great units earlygame. And then there are quite a few places in this game where terrain is a major issue and flying helps you complete objectives faster. Her offense (and durability!!) becomes quite good if she's used enough since her speed is very high.

Also, Walt should be above Barth. Barth's hit pretty much fails all the time...well, he can improve his hit with a slim lance, lowering his attack, but his hit is still not very impressive. Walt joins earlier, has a better weapon choice, supports Marcus (more defense and hit), and is surprisingly useful on chapter 7 for knocking out Wyverns with a Steel Bow.

[dondon151]

Yes, that is indeed what I'm implying.

Long chapters like ch 8 are about 28 turns. Other chapters are like 17 or something.

In comparison, FE7's chapters tend to be more around 10-11 turns.

Here's a partial turn-count log for one of my plays:

I can't really argue this because I don't keep track of turn counts for FE6. I do know that FE7 has its fair share of 17 turn chapters, however.

Also, FE6's tactics requirement for the best tactics score is over 600 turns, giving you more than twice as much time per chapter to S as in FE7.

This is not a valid justification, as everyone knows how much of a joke the tactics rank is in FE6. If FE7's turn requirement were to suddenly double to 620, we're not going to pretend that the chapters take 22 turns to finish!

Not only are chapters more than 50% longer than in FE7, which already makes +1 > +2inFE7, but also you have more ...free time. ie "stretches of just advancing without attacking much". A larger portion of those turns can be used to build supports.

I'm now inclined to agree with FE6's slow supports being "faster" than FE7's medium supports, but being a slight improvement on bad doesn't actually mean a whole lot.

[Dat Nick]

Never mind that this IS for FE6 Unranked, i.e tactics rank isn't a factor. Although I guess that means we wouldn't zerg rush through chapters and instead take slower, safer routes, so I suppose this helps Reikken's argument.

[dondon151]

The point of unranked isn't to toss out relevant benchmarks like tactics; it's to exclude counter-intuitive benchmarks like funds and EXP. Assuming unranked does not mean that we get to dilly-dally on maps because we feel like it or send in a quarter of our army as kamikaze bait. It means we get to sell our gems, use our promo items, and centralize our team as opposed to using two thirds of the cast to 18/0.

[Florete]

Now that it's been noticed, Thany needs to rise. She was above Wolt previously.

[Mekkah]

I can see her in the lowest spot of Lower Mid easily.

[Dat Nick]

Assuming unranked does not mean that we get to dilly-dally on maps because we feel like it or send in a quarter of our army as kamikaze bait.

How did you get "dilly-dallying for 80 turns on one map so Echidna and Geese can support" out of "slowing down to ensure the safety of our units?" I never said that we won't aim to complete chapters speedily, but we're certainly not going to take any risks to do so like we may in ranked, i.e, safety prioritizes over speed.

[grandjackal]

To be honest, I could see Thany above Wolt, as Wolt's not much better, and he has lots more problems.

Tany to lower mid though? Might be a tad much.

[Shadow Mir]

Also, Walt should be above Barth. Barth's hit pretty much fails all the time...well, he can improve his hit with a slim lance, lowering his attack, but his hit is still not very impressive. Walt joins earlier, has a better weapon choice, supports Marcus (more defense and hit), and is surprisingly useful on chapter 7 for knocking out Wyverns with a Steel Bow.

...What...?

[grandjackal]

What Aulin said.

There are so many things wrong with that argument it's not even funny. First off, you couldn't possibly pick a worse weapon choice than Bows. Secondly, Barth might not be accurate, but at least he's not a total offensive pussy like Walt is. Walt can't counter, and his damage output sucks donkey wang. Barth can actually counter, and thus has more opportunities to attack than Wolt, thus land more damage and do better offensively overall.

Thirdly, Barth has some amazing tank abilities, which allows him to counter for even longer before needing to heal. Wolt cannot possibly compare.

Fourthly, Wolt supporting Marcus is practically a null factor, once you consider A. Their severe move diference, B. The fact Marcus is not seeing past earlygame as Zealot is more than easily replacing him, and C. That defense does jack shit for an archer when he wants offense, IcexIce is not helping Wolt and it's not saving Marcus. Barth on the other hand has a bunch of supporters that would kill to suck his dick, as they have no one else. One of these people is Lillina, who would LOVE the defensive boost, and enjoys having a bodyguard around.

Finally, I'd say Wolt is dependent on a tank to have his offense against Wyverns, since he's certainly not gonna be able to take them on himself. Who's one of your best physical tanks? Thought so.

Only thing Wolt wins is move, which Barth makes up for by not being a totally awful class (armor knights suck, but I'd rather have on than an archer any day, especially if they do their job right. Armors don't suck in this game, it's just no armor can do their job properly).

However, I wish to bring something up, and it's food for thought. How does Zealot in upper mid sound?

Now hear me out. First off, his bases are good for his join time. Obviously. He pretty much rapes face through Ostia and hte Western Isles. However, we all know his offense starts to lag, due to speed. The question I pose to you is this: What of his durability?

First off, let's review. Full weapon triangle control off the bat. Chances of him suffering any weakness in combat is absolute zilch. Only person who has this sort of advantage is Marcus, but he has worse bases and growths overall. C Swords, A Lances and D Axes is overall pretty good to have around this time. This allows him a greater durability advantage and evade bonuses.

Then he has 2 supports, Treck and Noah. They are of moderate speed, and more importantly they can keep up with him. One of of Anima, the other Wind to his Darkness. Overall, this triangle nets him 2 Atk, 1 Def, 19 Avoid, 19 Crit, 25 hit and enough crit evade for his luck to be a nil factor. 18 Avoid however, is nothing to scoff at, and 19 crit is pretty good, considering he can easily wield any killer weapon he can dream of, it amounts to 49 crit without skill added and enemy luck (lol) subtracted. Either way, he's sporting pretty decent crit chances. He gives +1 ATK and defense, 15 avoid, 9 crit, hit, and of course crit evade. To Treck, he rewards 1 Atk, 10 crit and hit, 6 avoid and pointless crit evade to him. He completes their triangle in a way.

Considering his stats, time, and growths, he basically has the ability to avoid getting doubled by just about everything in the game. To reference, he is concretely more durable than a 20/10 Allen when Zealot here is at level 20, even when their supports are considered This is concretely mind you, Allen obviously has better evade, and is obviously doubling more lategame. Now you might think his evade blows. Does it now?

Zealot: (16x2) Speed + 7 Luck +19 avoid from supports + 10 from constant WTA = 68. It's not spectacular, but it gets him by.

Wyvern Lord of the hell that is chapter 21 with Silver Lance has 108 hit. 40 displayed hit. Yeah, a tad risky. with .8, he has a chance of 17 speed, which shaves it to 38. It's a bit risky, but it's not exactly horrible. But what, you ask Zealot will die easily?

Wyvern Lord with Silver= 40 ATK

Zealot: 49 HP, 16 Def + 1 from Noah support and +1 from WTA = 22. 3RKO. Would be the case even without his support and WTA, meaning it's the same even with a sword. Like the Wyrmslayer. .7 also shows that it has a good chance of being 17, but it won't change much on this front. But this is the strongest enemy in the game. What of the most common?

Wyvern Riders: 28 Atk and 81 Hit. 13-11 hit. Hurrrr. Even worse they have 15-2 speed (with steel in mind). If they got steel, and zealot managed 17 speed? He's doubling these guys. They do 10 damage under best case scenario (5RKO) and 12 under worst case scenario (still a 5RKO). If he managed 17 Def, it's a 6RKO under best, 5RKO under worst. Also note he has 9 Res, which is pretty damn good considering. 10 under supports.

On the offensive front though, he is indeed bad without a crit. At 20, he's comparable to a 20/1 Allen, freshly promoted. He's pretty much Lance without the speed, or the supermegawtf 5 attack boost from his supports. Unlike them though, by now he could easily have access to silver axes to make up for it, for how little it may.

So lategame he is not bad, rather he's average. Endgame with slow-ass mamkutes though, he's perfectly able to double them as well. Unlike just about everyone else in the army though, he is more than able to pull off 3 S ranks for his 3 weapons, meaning he can choose between 3 of the legendary weapons. Armads he can actually pull off a 2RKO, which is pretty crazy durability to these beasts. Durandal, he can do what anyone else using the sword can do, always be able to kill these pricks in one round. Malte is another option if the other two are already taken.

Also note he requires no resources to pull this off. No promotion item, no stat boosters (though he's able to make a notable use out of speedwings, and in this game I'd actually say there's little competition for it this time around).

Anyone else thinks this is deserving of a seat somewhere in Upper Mid?

Edited June 22, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Reikken]

First off, you couldn't possibly pick a worse weapon choice than Bows.

I strongly disagree. Why do people keep saying this? Counterattacking isn't everything. Indeed, I don't even want Wolt counterattacking even if he could. Enemy phase doesn't work like player phase. Everyone doesn't get a turn. The only ones who attack are the ones who get attacked. I want my strong units like Lance and Deak doing the counterattacking. Why would I want to waste it on Wolt (or Barth or anyone else whose offense sucks, like Clarine <--- the reason I don't think she belongs in top tier. Good defense is much less impressive when I don't want to use it if I can help it.)?

That "o noz, I can't counterattack melee" is not a big deal at all. This isn't FE7 where you have hordes of garbage units thrown at you who die on the counterattack no matter who does the counterattacking. The one who's counterattacking matters, and it matters a lot.

AND IN RETURN for choosing bows, you get... a bow user. Someone to use all those brave, killer, silver, whatever bows that you have lying around, and get massive bonus damage on winged opponents, and good ranged offense. Ranged is good for not taking counterattacks, not getting in the way of melee attackers, not exposing yourself as much or at all when you go to attack, etc. Also you're using a less-used promotion item. No having to wait until ch 16x to be promoted.

Thirdly, Barth has some amazing tank abilities,

He really doesn't. He's quite bad at tanking before promotion. High def? vs... steel axes, they have so much atk power that he still can't take many hits despite his beast def. He gets 3HK'd. Others are better off than he is because they dodge. vs anything else pretty much, he gets doubled. And vs magic, he has no res at all. Indeed mages can one-round him due to doubling his 1 res. He can tank swords. That's it.

And while I'm talking about Barth, I'll just note that his offense is also horrible. He has nice atk power, but look at that skl/luck. It's Gonzales without the speed or overkill power.

Anyone else thinks this is deserving of a seat somewhere in Upper Mid?

No. He's obviously not horrible, but when you have the likes of Geese, Lot, Noah, and Marcus (what the hell?) in lower mid, Zealot is not upper mid.

[Dat Nick]

Then there's that Wolt w/Steel Bow doesn't get doubled by the fighters and is actually three rounding them with decent hit whereas Barth has to deal with having 52% displayed. I don't know how it goes further down the line, although I know Wolt has an easy C Roy support, which is helping Roy during the axe user flood at this point in time.

so Wolt>Barth at the western isles...further down the line I have no idea, but if you want to argue this one further Reikken, floor is yours.

Oh, and what makes you think Marcus should be Upper Mid tier [i'm guessing that's where you want him?]

[Colonel M]

Barth can throw himself an early promotion and work a lot better during Western Isles. Granted he'll be dented at times, but outside of Western he's doing alright.

[Dat Nick]

Barth can throw himself an early promotion and work a lot better during Western Isles.

People actually want knight crests, though. And if Barth can promote early, so can Wolt.

[grandjackal]

I strongly disagree. Why do people keep saying this? Counterattacking isn't everything. Indeed, I don't even want Wolt counterattacking even if he could. Enemy phase doesn't work like player phase. Everyone doesn't get a turn. The only ones who attack are the ones who get attacked. I want my strong units like Lance and Deak doing the counterattacking. Why would I want to waste it on Wolt (or Barth or anyone else whose offense sucks, like Clarine <--- the reason I don't think she belongs in top tier. Good defense is much less impressive when I don't want to use it if I can help it.)?

Uhhh...Not seeing the point here, other than there is no point for Wolt to get attacked...which is sort of a no doy either way.

That "o noz, I can't counterattack melee" is not a big deal at all. This isn't FE7 where you have hordes of garbage units thrown at you who die on the counterattack no matter who does the counterattacking. The one who's counterattacking matters, and it matters a lot.

This also isn't FEDS, where enemies are capable of owning the ass of just about any character in 2 shots. Enemies aren't that godly in this game, and supports do help make the game easier than it already is. We aren't in such dire need of bows. Besides, what weapon is worse than bows, if you care to enlighten us? I said they were the worst weapon choice, not unusable.

AND IN RETURN for choosing bows, you get... a bow user. Someone to use all those brave, killer, silver, whatever bows that you have lying around, and get massive bonus damage on winged opponents, and good ranged offense. Ranged is good for not taking counterattacks, not getting in the way of melee attackers, not exposing yourself as much or at all when you go to attack, etc. Also you're using a less-used promotion item. No having to wait until ch 16x to be promoted.

I get the use of bows, but they are by no means in such great demand in this game for chip damage. If that were the case, Lillina would be quite a bit higher.

True with the Orion Bolts, but you have more than you need, you got Shin and Klein...Do you really need more than 1 or 2 archers?

He really doesn't. He's quite bad at tanking before promotion. High def? vs... steel axes, they have so much atk power that he still can't take many hits despite his beast def. He gets 3HK'd. Others are better off than he is because they dodge. vs anything else pretty much, he gets doubled. And vs magic, he has no res at all. Indeed mages can one-round him due to doubling his 1 res. He can tank swords. That's it.

And while I'm talking about Barth, I'll just note that his offense is also horrible. He has nice atk power, but look at that skl/luck. It's Gonzales without the speed or overkill power.

These are legitimate points.

No. He's obviously not horrible, but when you have the likes of Geese, Lot, Noah, and Marcus (what the hell?) in lower mid, Zealot is not upper mid.

Well you have brought them all up (and Lot was somewhere around upper mid before the time warp, and for good reasons). I think my entire list needs reworking from lower mid and down. Any other changes you envision?