Efficiency Tier List?

[Colonel M]

I don't have lategame saves, but I seriously doubt that these enemies constitute a large percentage of enemies on the map. Regardless, Saul's lategame trounces Ellen's, but she has a better midgame where her supporting capabilities exceed whatever Saul has, and there's no denying the full 3 4 chapter earlygame advantage that Ellen has.

The chapter with Brunya IIRC takes up a large percentage of the map. It's quite late in the game though (and it's going off the top of my head).

[Dr. Tarrasque]

http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe6/guiafe6/cap23.htm

You guys should use these maps to get an idea of just how many enemies there are in each. I can translate the reinforcements data if needed.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Sirius

[Colonel M]

Sweet, HM stats for the bosses too.

[grandjackal]

I'll add that site to the first post, as it has moar info on the chapters. Completely forgot about it. Thank you, Sirius.

I'll respond to Dondon's post after this.

Lugh hides behind 1 range frontliners and Saul stands behind 1 range frontliners to do something. The difference is here, but it's small.

Enemies are more out of reach than your own team, Saul can afford to hang back further than just behind them.

Oops, I thought you recruited Saul in the village, but in fact he just runs away for the chapter. Actually, for when both Saul and Lugh exist, neither are OHKO'd, because the only enemies capable of doing that to either are fighters and brigands.

...Uhhh...Did you just ignore the fact that Lou has to suffer through it regardless? This is called being a problem.

My point was that Lugh's kill EXP more than makes up for the deficit in nonfatal EXP, meaning that both gain levels at at least the same rate.

You kidding? Saul can get exp even when you're just walking to battle, not even being there yet. Saul's always got something to do, Lou doesn't necessarily.

Wrong. Ohtz has a whopping 33 atk. This wipes out 88% of 18/0 Alan's HP, 91% of 18/0 Lance's HP, and 69% of 15/0 Miledy's HP. There are a bunch of enemies that start out in that area, though I'm not sure how many of them move. The only one that can feasibly take a couple shots after a single Bolting is Miledy (attesting to her awesomeness).

Fine, a couple uses can be saved for this one instance, simply because Ohtz really is that annoying. Only other option is to have someone near the start spam it to break it, but that just makes actually fighting him more annoying.

You ignored the chapter 16 and 16x examples, and there are numerous instances later on. Barrier also lets thieves survive Bolting instead of being instantly killed. Let's not forget about Lalum either, who still needs to be at about 8/-- to survive a 30 atk Bolting with max Barrier.

The sniper mages are so far apart, you might as well just heal, if you're talking about those chapters.

Ashtor only needs 2 levels to survive a Purging, while at max level he can survive a Sacaean bolting (there is no bolting in Ilia). The ones in Sacae are easily taken care of with a warping. Either way, it's only 10 levels for a thief who's going through the western isles.

"Just lessens the chances" is extremely vague and shows that you didn't bother researching your numbers.

20/2 Clarine (or Saul) has 16 res. A Silence sage from 16x has 20 mag and 14 skl. Assuming that the guy uses Silence from 15 range, he has 53 displayed hit on Clarine. Using Barrier on Clarine reduces displayed hit to 11. In true hit terms, that's 56.29 down to 2.53, or a 53.76-fold decrease in the chance that Clarine will be silenced. For Ellen, who has 20.4 res at 20/2, +5 res or higher turns displayed hit to 0.

Guess Saul's not getting targeted, so he's free to do this.

But now ask yourself. You could have used 1 barrier to do this, when it's just as painless to just use Restore, and that overall will net you more exp.

Dorothy gets +1 atk, +1 def, and full avoid. In addition to the latter two bonuses not mattering much (since Dorothy shouldn't see enemy phase action assuming efficient play), you have to show me how +1 atk hits numerous ORKO/2RKO thresholds in order to justify the claim that Dorothy greatly benefits from Saul.

Really depends on archer levels, considering this game. I'll have to get back to you with this once I figure out the right logical conclusions.

The save I have of chapter 16 has 16-17 speed mercs, and I trust my saves.

Well, I trust the averages.

Who cares if it "isn't tanky?" Being 2-3RKO'd means that you have to be extremely careful with placement on enemy phase in a game where enemies come at your in groups of 3-5 at a time. This actually means Saul's making the phase less efficient by preventing someone else who's doing better than 2-3RKO'd doing the counterattacks. If you're Miledy, not supporting other team members is not a problem. If you're Saul, not supporting other team members is relatively a huge disadvantage.

Ellen's case is even worse, she gets constant 2RKOd, maybe even ORKO, and takes twice as long to kill something.

Thanks, and Ellen sucks a lot more in Sacae. Though I should point out that your average nomad has only about a 50/50 chance to OHKO a 20/7 Ellen (according to averages she barely survives).

Gets even funnier when in 1-2 levels, Saul can pull a 3RKO durability against nomad troopers with their strongest weapon, steel swords.

This doesn't discount all possibilities, and they only need 20 turns adjacent for a C.

Now ask yourself how often Miledy's just gonna be hanging around Ellen. You can't seriously be suggesting we tether Miledy, are you?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. I'm also saying that Ellen's supports are totally outgoing while Saul doesn't want to support Ellen because IcexWind is trash.

It's minor, but I'd think Ellen would like more dodge sooner, more crit wouldn't hurt her, and she kinda has to get an offensive advantage somehow. Tidbit more crit, avoid and 1 atk+def>nothing.

It's 5 hit, which makes a small difference.

Missing 2% of the enemies overall makes plenty of difference.

A B support won't happen earlygame and +1 atk and +1 def doesn't qualify as whatever you made it out to be.

By the way, this problem has been bugging me. If Lugh and Saul can't be positioned similarly, then how does DorothyxSaul build support points?

It helps because Dorothy has nothing better early on, and they build a support with a 20+2 basis.

Let's take a sample 41 HP/2 res fighter from chapter 16. 20/1 Lugh has 21.6 atk with Thunder, which just misses the ORKO. With Ellen's help, it's sealed.

Or, a sample 40 HP/4 res cavalier from chapter 17I. 20/3 Lugh has 22.4 atk with Thunder, which ORKOs with B Ellen.

Or, a sample 46 HP/9 res paladin from that same chapter. 20/3 Lugh needs B Ellen to have a chance at OHKO with a crit.

Saul can do the same thing with Divine.

Like Saul, Lou also has the problem of being constantly 2RKOd. Difference being that Saul can actually pull off some form of actual durability with his supports, while Ellen doesn't help Lou's major problem at all. Essentially, Saul can become what Lou is supposed to be sooner.

As you notice however, offense isn't his problem when he's doing such damage regardless. It is not that much worse with Saul, except Saul can double more often. I recall those paladins having 14 AS. At promotion, Lou's got 16 AS, while Saul's got 18.

At least for Ellen, you know what you can die against. I'm not denying Saul's offensive lead.

With Saul, he might just not die at all. With Ellen, I might just have to have her stay far back. Hell, Sacae's practically no-go for her.

I don't have lategame saves, but I seriously doubt that these enemies constitute a large percentage of enemies on the map. Regardless, Saul's lategame trounces Ellen's, but she has a better midgame where her supporting capabilities exceed whatever Saul has, and there's no denying the full 3 4 chapter earlygame advantage that Ellen has.

They pop up one every group of wyverns in chapter 21, so it's possible to see 1-2 per freaking turn. Chapter 21 is a nightmare for Ellen. As for midgame superiority, I'd take Saul being a well-rounded unit over Ellen helping Lou not have better survivability. Especially since Saul can essentially do what Lou should be doing sooner.

When I first pulled up the 20/1 averages, I was almost convinced that Saul>Ellen by virtue of his performance lategame. I'm more or less just playing devil's advocate because I sit on neither side of the fence and it seems like this argument needs to be explored. I'm actually not too sure what can cancel out Ellen's 4 chapter earlygame lead, which is incredibly significant due to how much healing is in demand.

It's all fair. Besides, this topic needs more in-depth arguments. I thank you for this more than anything.

To add on more, Ellen can't fight bosses really. Saul's at least got his chances.

Murdock for example has 41 ATK, which is 1 more than those deadly WL. There is absolutely no hope for Ellen here. Saul however, can survive it at level 7, Sooner with a support set up for 1 Def, sooner with +2 more defense from supports. Offensively?

Ellen can't even double him, immediate facepalm. But lesssee what Saul can do.

Saul with Divine at level 20/7- 23 Damage. Murdock has 73 HP and 19 resistance+2 from throne.

....Ok, 2 damage a shot. +2 under his best case scenario, that's 4 damage a shot, 8 damage a turn. 10RKO

Now remember that Ellen can't double him. Her numbers are much worse, as she's not even that much stronger per shot.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[dondon151]

Enemies are more out of reach than your own team, Saul can afford to hang back further than just behind them.

I wasn't satisfied with your answer. If Dorothy and Lugh fill almost the same niche on the team, how can SaulxDorothy happen if Saul and Lugh cannot be positioned similarly?

...Uhhh...Did you just ignore the fact that Lou has to suffer through it regardless? This is called being a problem.

Yes, this is one map where Lugh's garbage, and not really negative utility because he can just sit around doing nothing.

You kidding? Saul can get exp even when you're just walking to battle, not even being there yet. Saul's always got something to do, Lou doesn't necessarily.

There will not always be a guy to heal, and if there is, Saul might not be entitled to do so.

The sniper mages are so far apart, you might as well just heal, if you're talking about those chapters.

I'm talking about how Bolting mage/sage + enemies near said Bolting mage/sage totally trounces your mid-tier units, probably even your high tier units, so you want to dedicate Barrier to preventing that.

Ashtor only needs 2 levels to survive a Purging, while at max level he can survive a Sacaean bolting (there is no bolting in Ilia). The ones in Sacae are easily taken care of with a warping. Either way, it's only 10 levels for a thief who's going through the western isles.

What about other thieves not named Astol? What about Astol that didn't get 10 levels?

Guess Saul's not getting targeted, so he's free to do this.

But now ask yourself. You could have used 1 barrier to do this, when it's just as painless to just use Restore, and that overall will net you more exp.

No, Saul is targeted, as I said in my example. He's one of the easier targets on the team. Using Restore to cure silence prevents you from healing your units, which you will need to do with as many as 3 Bolting users targeting them in addition to enemies in immediate range in addition to Windam berserking your units.

Now ask yourself how often Miledy's just gonna be hanging around Ellen. You can't seriously be suggesting we tether Miledy, are you?

It's not difficult for Miledy to accumulate 20 turns around Ellen over the course of 5 chapters. I'm pretty strict with my supports; notice how I don't pull bullshit like A Lugh B Miledy because I will only go for what's possible and plausible.

It's minor, but I'd think Ellen would like more dodge sooner, more crit wouldn't hurt her, and she kinda has to get an offensive advantage somehow. Tidbit more crit, avoid and 1 atk+def>nothing.

Ellen's healing before chapter 16, so 1 atk and crit from Saul makes no difference. 1 def doesn't help her get any less 2RKO'd. 2 or 5 avo doesn't help her either, not even considering that she shouldn't get attacked.

The point of healer supports is that they're outgoing. Ellen gives full offense to Saul even though for half the game, he has no offense, and Saul gives her dumb bonuses that don't help her.

Like Saul, Lou also has the problem of being constantly 2RKOd. Difference being that Saul can actually pull off some form of actual durability with his supports, while Ellen doesn't help Lou's major problem at all. Essentially, Saul can become what Lou is supposed to be sooner.

20/1 Saul has 41.75 avo against 20/1 Lugh's 44.65 avo, and all of Lugh's supports give avo in addition to being more likely than Saul's supports. Lugh also has access to 8 MT tomes and wins mag by 2.6 while Saul's stuck with 5 MT tomes for awhile. He also has +2 atk from Ellen whereas Saul has +1 atk at best. In fact, Saul falls short of an ORKO on pretty much everything, and since his affinity doesn't give atk, supports don't help him reach that threshold (i.e. +1 atk isn't enough).

As you notice however, offense isn't his problem when he's doing such damage regardless. It is not that much worse with Saul, except Saul can double more often. I recall those paladins having 14 AS. At promotion, Lou's got 16 AS, while Saul's got 18.

Dude, you can't just ignore numbers when I clearly showed how +2 atk from supports helps Lugh achieve ORKOs. Atk and def support bonuses are generally so small that they don't matter unless you can show how they matter.

The paladins have 12-13 AS, so Lugh doubles them on average at 20/2, though even if they did have 14 AS, Lugh has a high chance at doubling them at 20/3. And then, he has a chance to OHKO them with 23.75 crit minus their 9 luck.

They pop up one every group of wyverns in chapter 21, so it's possible to see 1-2 per freaking turn. Chapter 21 is a nightmare for Ellen. As for midgame superiority, I'd take Saul being a well-rounded unit over Ellen helping Lou not have better survivability. Especially since Saul can essentially do what Lou should be doing sooner.

Midgame generally refers to before Saul promotes, where Ellen is clearly superior with supports. For the first few maps after they promote, Ellen is not losing by a whole lot.

Saul with Divine at level 20/7- 23 Damage. Murdock has 73 HP and 19 resistance+2 from throne.

....Ok, 2 damage a shot. +2 under his best case scenario, that's 4 damage a shot, 8 damage a turn. 10RKO

Resistance bonus is +5. Sorry, Saul. You didn't even consider throne healing, which reduces Saul's damage to 1 damage per turn.

Edited June 26, 2009 by dondon151

[A2ZOMG]

Bah, I don't think Gonzales deserves to be that high. He has major trouble getting those supports he needs (Echidna is his only good one, which is rather slow, and also she becomes iffy later on). And his hit is terrible, making him very unreliable in general. And then he has problems promoting since you only have like two Heros Crests for a long time, and Rutger and Deak are pretty much guaranteed the first two.

I think Shin for example is better. Since Shin rarely ever misses, and Fir is a good unit who wants to support him. And of course, you're even shorter on Bow users as opposed to Axe users (especially after Deak gets that promotion he's getting). Onerounding those Wyverns or Pegasus Knights without taking a counter is awesome stuff and such, and then getting those swords on promotion which are of course quite useful.

Edited June 27, 2009 by A2ZOMG

[grandjackal]

Sounds good to me. Any objections?

[dondon151]

Yeah, but I'm way too tired to look up stats and compose an argument. Maybe after I watch some anime...

[grandjackal]

Yeah, but I'm way too tired to look up stats and compose an argument. Maybe after I watch some anime...

If I may recommend Outlaw Star?

[A2ZOMG]

Alright, numbers why Shin is better:

He starts with 14 spd...enough to double the 10 spd lolfighters. And many of them wield lolSteel, meaning he gets to double many of them with a Steel Bow too.

So take something like a level 7 Shin vs some of those lolfighters, and then compare Gonzales as he joins.

With Iron, Shin does double 11s for 22 damage at about 84-92ish hit depending on whether that dude has Iron or Steel. One hit from a Steel Axe from Gonzales does the same damage but is waaaaaaay less likely to hit being in about the lower 40s-50s or something awful like that. And then he also risks eating a counter in the process, and his evade is not quite as hot as Shin's.

Hmmmm, it's gonna take a while before Gonzales actually doubles anything. Actually, he can double the 6 AS Brigands that wield Steel. He could do enough damage to kill them in one round with Steel, but that is quite unlikely to happen since he misses like half the time. He doesn't oneround them with Iron, and his aforementioned hit problem still makes it hard for him to do stuff. Also, Shin has a clear advantage over any Brigands that aren't wielding Steel, since his much higher speed allows him to double those right off the bat. And his damage is often quite sufficient for some of your units to finish off the Brigand in one more hit.

So basically Shin is always very consistently helping you 2round those Brigands that have way too much HP and atk, while Gonzales is either being an extremely risky gamble or just iffy in general trying to be productive. Gonzales however is pretty helpful the next chapter after he joined since his huge atk helps you break down those walls you need to break down to advance, and then he does better against those lolArchers. Shin however has a huge move advantage and does better against everything else of course. Shin can also oneround the 8 spd Shamans with Steel pretty easily at 70ish hit. Gonzales on the other hand? Not so easily.

So then I'd probably argue how Shin's level lead increases more and more for quite some time, and then he gets to promote way before Gonzales does since there is like zero competition for the Orion's Bolts. But I think that should do for now...

Edited June 27, 2009 by A2ZOMG

[dondon151]

I'll start with a chapter 11 comparison. 7/0 Shin has 16.3 atk, 14.6 AS, and 109 hit with Iron Bow, or 19.3 atk, 12.6 AS, and 94 hit with Steel Bow. 5/0 Gonzales has 24 atk, 10.6 AS, and 83 hit with Iron Axe.

Steel Axe fighters have 6-7 AS, which Gonzales has a good chance at doubling at base, and an even greater chance given an inevitable level up. They have something like 16 avo, so Gonzales has hit rates of around 67, or 78.55 true hit. Not bad. Higher end fighters have 41 HP/6 def, but it goes as low as 39 HP/4 def. Base Gonzales has a 61.7% chance at ORKOing lower end fighters, and with 1 strength level up, he ORKOs all 40 HP/5 def fighters, a majority of that enemy type on this map. It should be noted that with an Iron Bow, Shin does about 54% damage to fighters, just over what Gonzales can do in one shot.

If a fighter equips Hand Axe, AS goes up to 10, which means Gonzales can't double... nor can 7/0 Shin with a Steel Bow, so their damage outputs are about equivalent, except Gonzales's hit rate is lower, but still reliable to the point where describing it as "missing all the time" is an exaggeration.

The archers I won't bother with, since Shin can't attack those without a counter while Gonzales can. Gonzales 2RKOs all of them, pretty much, at something like 68.4 true hit, which isn't that good... but no counter.

Defensively it's 29.2 HP, 8.0 def, 38 avo for Shin against 42.6 HP, 6.8 def, 27 avo for Gonzales. Steel Axe fighters have 28-29 atk, so Gonzales can avoid the 2RKO from half of them, while Shin can't. Shin faces around 23.46 true hit while Gonzales faces around 40.95. Gonzales faces slightly higher chances of death after 3 hits than Shin does after 2; however, Shin can't survive a Steel Axe fighter followed by something like a 20 atk Steel Bow archer whereas Gonzales can. Whatever the case, Gonzales is fairly durable, so he can contribute on enemy phase whereas Shin can't.

I'd say that at jointime, Shin only ekes out a slight win because his damage is more reliable. However, it must be considered that Gonzales has a huge chance of ORKOing Steel Axe fighters as well as enough durability to see enough enemy phase action where his output there can overtake Shin's output on player phase.

It can only get worse for Shin from there, really. Gonzales's AS problems are never outstanding because AS in chapters 11-12x is generally low thanks to fighters with Steel Axes. Then, in chapter 13, 11/0 Gonzales with his 27.6 atk/13.6 AS has no trouble doubling Steel Lance or Axereaver cavs (use Swordreaver), and he has a chance at ORKOing 38 HP/10 def cavs and lower, or about half the map. Or he could use Halberd to OHKO all cavs and do 90% damage to the paladins. Steel Lance WKs also max out at 9 AS, so he 2RKOs as opposed to Shin's ORKO with a Steel Bow, except he can fight a lot more on enemy phase.

I can't be assed to continue. I frankly don't see how Shin can possibly beat Gonzales past earlygame; even toting around his WK killing utility is useless because Gonzales can do about the same while fighting a lot more at once. Let's not even introduce killers and crit bonus into the equation.

By the way, the notion that Shin's level lead increases is totally ridiculous, considering that Shin's actions constitute less than a half of Gonzales's. Also, his support with Fir is twice as fast as Gonzales's support with Echidna, except it's plagued by problems of move disparity and dissimilar niches, so I'd only consider GonzalesxEchidna about 75% as fast as ShinxFir, maybe even a bit faster than that.

About promotion: Gonzales really doesn't need a promotion until chapter 16. Doubling mercs is not something that he can do until something like 18/1 or 20/1. However, being capped at 20 strength lets him still ORKO stuff like mages and fighters. What promotion does, however, is to greatly increase the chance of instantly killing anything (even armors are 3HKO), as well as improving his hit rate by 10 and increasing his durability to sky-high levels. As an example, 23 atk mercs and 26 atk armors from chapter 16 5RKO 15/1 Gonzales, making him the most durable unit on the team (in concrete terms), beating 20/1 Dieck, Lance, Allen.

In fact, there are numerous merits to promoting Gonzales before your other Hero Crest dudes like Dieck, Rutger, Geese, Lot, etc., though Gonzales is not too badly off without a promotion for awhile.

Edited June 27, 2009 by dondon151

[A2ZOMG]

Hmmm, I see. A few things however.

It can only get worse for Shin from there, really. Gonzales's AS problems are never outstanding because AS in chapters 11-12x is generally low thanks to fighters with Steel Axes. Then, in chapter 13, 11/0 Gonzales with his 27.6 atk/13.6 AS has no trouble doubling Steel Lance or Axereaver cavs (use Swordreaver), and he has a chance at ORKOing 38 HP/10 def cavs and lower, or about half the map. Or he could use Halberd to OHKO all cavs and do 90% damage to the paladins. Steel Lance WKs also max out at 9 AS, so he 2RKOs as opposed to Shin's ORKO with a Steel Bow, except he can fight a lot more on enemy phase.

Gonzales isn't necessarily fighting more Wyverns on the enemy phase than Shin. It's very possible for Shin to be promoted by about now, since raising him is significantly easier since he's more accurate and great at getting kills. And promoting Shin early also has noteable benefits like having more time to raise those sword levels. Yeah, he's doing less damage. He's still more accurate and faster however. And with that Fir support he's getting, his evade is definitely better even with wtd.

By the way, the notion that Shin's level lead increases is totally ridiculous, considering that Shin's actions constitute less than a half of Gonzales's. Also, his support with Fir is twice as fast as Gonzales's support with Echidna, except it's plagued by problems of move disparity and dissimilar niches, so I'd only consider GonzalesxEchidna about 75% as fast as ShinxFir, maybe even a bit faster than that.

See, the problem with raising Gonzales is like any combat unit, you need to get kills to gain respectable exp, and getting kills is easier said than done with him missing about half the time before he's promoted. He gets 60ish accuracy at best on enemies...which is still iirc like over a 50% chance of not landing two consecutive hits. At least with Shin you have at minimum 10 more hit on whatever making it much easier for him to finish off enemies, and thus gain exp. And even if Shin misses (which is unlikely), since he's ranged, you still have another chance to finish off that dude since Shin doesn't get in the way. Missing with Shin is probably beneficial to your team since the RNs he missed with were probably quite high, so you're much more likely to get two more RNs that are lower than the ones he used up. And then he's still benefiting from the 1 exp from engaging in combat while someone else gets that kill he somehow didn't get.

Also, supporting him with Fir is quite easy if anything. Fir is a 1 range combat unit, so the best way to have her supported in combat is by having a 2 range unit next to her. And Shin is the best 2 range unit there is. Sword + Bow is an epic combo in this game. A fighter needs to be killed. Damage it with Shin, and kill it with Fir(e). An archer? Damage it with Fir, and kill it with Shin if it's not dead already. Probably the best defensive strategy there is in this game.

Gonzales supporting Echidna however has significant deployment issues, since in order for both of them to be attacking the same enemy, one has to use Handaxes, and those never have reliable accuracy. Especially when Gonzales is throwing one. And then Echidna starts sucking as mid-lategame rolls by since she doesn't have amazing mt and her AS lead becomes less and less impressive as time goes on. So basically not only is Shin Fir growing at twice the rate (and starting two chapters earlier!) Gonzales is actually having major issues building his support whenever there are enemies around. So support with Fir I'm guessing is liek maybe up to three times faster than support with Echidna in actual practice. And Shin Fir doesn't become nearly as iffy lategame either.

Edited June 27, 2009 by A2ZOMG

[grandjackal]

Another thing to consider is route difference.

Shina and Gonzales rape pegasi like it's their job, and that's because it is their job. Both are pretty awesome in Ilia, but a thing to consider is if Shin's being used, he'll be seriously used, thus we go to Sacae.

There he makes up for forcing us there by being nigh godly there. Gonzales there however, is god-awful. Good luck hitting any-damn-thing not a wyvern.

So far, I'd actually say it's in Shin's favor currently, as the RNG is nowhere near as rape-happy to Shin than it is to Gonzales. However it's close...Do go on.

[Colonel M]

There's another slight issue: route differences (not Ilia and Sacae damnit!). The Level 12 Gonzales improves a bit slower and can't promote early in the first place due to Rutgar and Deak usually stealing the throne.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

We split up Gonzales on the list, remember?

[dondon151]

Gonzales isn't necessarily fighting more Wyverns on the enemy phase than Shin. It's very possible for Shin to be promoted by about now, since raising him is significantly easier since he's more accurate and great at getting kills. And promoting Shin early also has noteable benefits like having more time to raise those sword levels. Yeah, he's doing less damage. He's still more accurate and faster however. And with that Fir support he's getting, his evade is definitely better even with wtd.

I only have chapter 18I samples of WKs, which I guess still works.

16/4 Shin has 24.8 atk/19.6 AS with Steel Sword, 18/2 Gonzales has 31.6 atk/19.6 AS with Iron Axe (WT already factored). A WK from this chapter has something like 42 HP, 15 def, 84 hit. Shin 5HKOs (3RKO) while Gonzales 3HKOs (2RKOs). If we give Shin C swords and Killing Edge (which he won't have by now), Shin still can't ORKO higher end 16 def WKs with a crit, whereas Gonzales OHKOs all of them at much higher crit rates. Defensively, Shin has 51 avo with B Fir and is 3RKO'd at around 22 true hit while Gonzales has 65 avo with C Echidna and is 4-5RKO'd at around 8.2 true hit.

Gonzales only needs 36 atk to cleanly ORKO all WKs, which he can get with Silver Axe or if he's at a slightly higher level with Steel or Killer Axe.

With these numbers, your claim doesn't hold water. Some of your assertions are just totally false as well.

See, the problem with raising Gonzales is like any combat unit, you need to get kills to gain respectable exp, and getting kills is easier said than done with him missing about half the time before he's promoted. He gets 60ish accuracy at best on enemies...which is still iirc like over a 50% chance of not landing two consecutive hits. At least with Shin you have at minimum 10 more hit on whatever making it much easier for him to finish off enemies, and thus gain exp. And even if Shin misses (which is unlikely), since he's ranged, you still have another chance to finish off that dude since Shin doesn't get in the way. Missing with Shin is probably beneficial to your team since the RNs he missed with were probably quite high, so you're much more likely to get two more RNs that are lower than the ones he used up. And then he's still benefiting from the 1 exp from engaging in combat while someone else gets that kill he somehow didn't get.

Did you read my post where I said that Gonzales has 78.55 true hit against Steel Axe fighters that are common throughout his early chapters? Gonzales has a 4.6% chance of missing 2 hits against them, far, far less than your hyperbole of "like over a 50% chance of not landing two consecutive hits." Against the archers it's closer to 10%, but Gonzales doesn't double them anyway and Shin eats a counter when attacking (and it's still 5 times less than your number that you pulled out of thin air).

And once again, that's not how probability fucking works. Shin missing is independent of other units missing and vice versa. Holy shit, I don't have to tell you twice.

Also, supporting him with Fir is quite easy if anything. Fir is a 1 range combat unit, so the best way to have her supported in combat is by having a 2 range unit next to her. And Shin is the best 2 range unit there is. Sword + Bow is an epic combo in this game. A fighter needs to be killed. Damage it with Shin, and kill it with Fir(e). An archer? Damage it with Fir, and kill it with Shin if it's not dead already. Probably the best defensive strategy there is in this game.

Enemies come in this game in more than groups of 1. If two enemies are adjacent, which is extremely common, Gonzales and Echidna will have no trouble positioning themselves for damage and support points. Furthermore, if Shin is ever accompanying other units that match his move, he won't hesitate to ditch Fir.

So basically not only is Shin Fir growing at twice the rate (and starting two chapters earlier!) Gonzales is actually having major issues building his support whenever there are enemies around. So support with Fir I'm guessing is liek maybe up to three times faster than support with Echidna in actual practice. And Shin Fir doesn't become nearly as iffy lategame either.

Echidna is Rutger with less crit and axes, so I'm not quite sure where you're getting the notion that Echidna becomes severely outclassed. I could just as easily point out that Fir does even worse against WKs than Shin and is also a rather unspectacular lategame unit with comparable durability to Echidna and worse supports.

Could someone please upload chapter 17-20 savestates of Sacae... Or I could just waste a couple of hours getting them myself...

Edited June 27, 2009 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

Alright, with the numbers Don has displayed, im starting to lean more towards Gonzales. As for numbers on more enemies on Sacae?

Basically ont he front page, the debate between Inui and CATS has everything you need to know about nomads, I recall Wyverns being hte generally same you've fought up so far, and I've no clue on everything else. 'Twould be appreciated indeed for an upload of those Sacaen chapters.

[Mekkah]

dondon, I think A2 meant the chance of Gonzo missing at least once, not missing twice.

I can see Shin > Gonzo, though I disagree with Shin making up for forcing us to Sacae by being good there. Sure, he becomes better, but everyone else becomes worse.

What I can't see is A Gonzo > Shin > B Gonzo. That is just fucked up.

[grandjackal]

dondon, I think A2 meant the chance of Gonzo missing at least once, not missing twice.

I can see Shin > Gonzo, though I disagree with Shin making up for forcing us to Sacae by being good there. Sure, he becomes better, but everyone else becomes worse.

What I can't see is A Gonzo > Shin > B Gonzo. That is just fucked up.

Why would that be?

Also, everyone doesn't become worse, just other characters are better here than they are in Ilia. Douglas for instance.

[dondon151]

dondon, I think A2 meant the chance of Gonzo missing at least once, not missing twice.

But I already listed the statistic of Gonzales hitting twice (so just 1 - P), so there's hardly any point in repeating the same statistic, not to mention that Gonzales hitting once is almost equivalent to Shin hitting twice and Gonzales has a high chance at ORKO whereas Shin can't hope to do so.

Edited June 27, 2009 by dondon151

[A2ZOMG]

Alright, so anyhow....78.55 true hit on steel fighters...The chance of landing two consecutive hits is ~61.7%. Which I guess is alright, but almost half the time he's still failing to oneround stuff, while you correctly pointed out that he is missing two hits 4% of the time. Now this wouldn't be a problem except for the fact whenever you're missing with a melee unit, they're getting in the way. And Gonzales can be tricky to rescue if it's necessary to move him out of the way since he has a massive 15 con.

Shin with Iron has about perfect accuracy on the Steel Brigands and does about 3 more damage than Iron Gonzales whenever Gonzales lands only one hit. And then he's not getting in the way, meaning that it's a simple matter for any other accurate melee unit (Fir anyone?) to finish off the Brigand.

So the outcomes can go like this.

61% of the time, Gonzales kills that dude with Iron, the rest of the time he's phailing and Shin is doing significantly better.

essentially 100% of the time (give or take like 2 hit or something) Shin is doing his consistent 22 damage with Iron leaving the 37 HP fighters with only 15 HP. With Steel his hit rate drops to 85 (I forget what real hit that is...something over 90) but then he leaves them with 9 HP, which Fir (or pretty much anyone with good hit for that matter) can easily finish off.

Enemies come in this game in more than groups of 1. If two enemies are adjacent, which is extremely common, Gonzales and Echidna will have no trouble positioning themselves for damage and support points. Furthermore, if Shin is ever accompanying other units that match his move, he won't hesitate to ditch Fir.

You have a good idea, but I must point out that enemies are rarely ever adjacent when they approach you since they are not set up that way. Usually they are set up diagonally away from each other, and it can be very iffy getting a situation where something like one enemy melee unit and one ranged unit attack the same player unit and stand next to each other. And then there is one more problem. As you pointed out, your example mentions two enemies. It's more important to be able to kill enemies one at a time than it is to damage as many of them as possible since fewer enemies on the enemy phase means easier survival, and there are only two ways your having that happen WHILE supporting Echidna and Gonzales. Either Echidna or Gonzales wield a handaxe, which has lol hit implications, or either one of them must kill an enemy immediately on the player phase (not all that simple since Echidna isn't super strong, and Gonzales is having that hit issue all the time) and then the other advance into the next enemy.

And no, Shin is never really concerned about "accompanying other units that match his move". The only support options he has that match his move are all terrible. And more importantly, you're short on Melee x Range combinations which are very effective defensively.

Edited June 27, 2009 by A2ZOMG

[dondon151]

If I may recommend Outlaw Star?

I've got Sora o Kakeru Shoujo and Higurashi to catch up on =_=

Alright, so anyhow....78.55 true hit on steel fighters...The chance of landing two consecutive hits is ~61.7%. Which I guess is alright, but almost half the time he's still failing to oneround stuff, while you correctly pointed out that he is missing two hits 4% of the time. Now this wouldn't be a problem except for the fact whenever you're missing with a melee unit, they're getting in the way. And Gonzales can be tricky to rescue if it's necessary to move him out of the way since he has a massive 15 con.

1: 38.3% is not "almost half the time," it's 1.31 times less than "half the time."

2: Shin ORKOs stuff 0% of the time.

3: 4.6% is 1 in 22 rounds of combat on average. There are 21 starting generic enemies in chapter 11E (though not all of them are Steel Axe fighters). 4.6% is very rare and does not outweigh 61.7% chance of ORKOing enemies that no one ORKOs.

4: Gonzales hitting once is slightly less than equivalent to another melee unit hitting twice. Since these enemies are 2RKO'd most of the time, Gonzales occupying a melee spot is about as detrimental as anyone else occupying a melee spot, i.e. not much at all.

Shin with Iron has about perfect accuracy on the Steel Brigands and does about 3 more damage than Iron Gonzales whenever Gonzales lands only one hit. And then he's not getting in the way, meaning that it's a simple matter for any other accurate melee unit (Fir anyone?) to finish off the Brigand.

So the outcomes can go like this.

61% of the time, Gonzales kills that dude with Iron, the rest of the time he's phailing and Shin is doing significantly better.

1: 61.7% of the time is already huge. That's slightly better than 3 in 5 times on average. 61.7% of the time, Gonzales's offensive output rapes Shin's in 4 orifices.

2: 33.7% of the time, Gonzales slightly loses damage output to Iron Bow Shin, but the enemy can be killed by any unit that can double. The unit will likely also not take a counter because of WTA, assuming that the efficient player brings along sword users.

3: 4.6% of the time, Gonzales gets a goose egg, but that happens 13.4 times less often than Gonzales killing something.

You have a good idea, but I must point out that enemies are rarely ever adjacent when they approach you since they are not set up that way. Usually they are set up diagonally away from each other, and it can be very iffy getting a situation where something like one enemy melee unit and one ranged unit attack the same player unit and stand next to each other.

You're assuming that enemy units maintain their formation, which means that player units always move on the edge of enemy range, which is not true. You're also assuming that you always stick out just one unit to bait attacks. If I stick out Echidna and Gonzales to bait attacks, they can be positioned adjacently for a support point and they're extremely durable to boot, which is an ideal combination.

IcexFire's bonuses are inferior to IcexThunder. Gonzales gets full durability (Echidna likes this as well) whereas Shin gets half everything but avo.

This support argument is extremely tangential. It amounts to one level of difference at best, which is minimal, especially taking into account the individual bonuses.

And no, Shin is never really concerned about "accompanying other units that match his move". The only support options he has that match his move are all terrible. And more importantly, you're short on Melee x Range combinations which are very effective defensively.

Great, you're suggesting to smother Shin's utility by tethering him to another unit just for some shitty support bonuses. I don't think I have to counter you digging yourself into a hole.

Every other mounted unit in the game sans Sue is a melee unit, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Edited June 27, 2009 by dondon151

[Balcerzak]

Could someone please upload chapter 17-20 savestates of Sacae... Or I could just waste a couple of hours getting them myself...

Enjoy

Also, a list of Enemy unit types, levels, and weapons. Which as soon as I finish melding with ensemble outputs will have generic enemy statistics (averages and spreads) as well.

[grandjackal]

Enjoy

Also, a list of Enemy unit types, levels, and weapons. Which as soon as I finish melding with ensemble outputs will have generic enemy statistics (averages and spreads) as well.

Shall post these on the front post. Thank you much.

[dondon151]

Fuck, I hate having a version of VBA that doesn't play .sgm saves.