Efficiency Tier List?

[grandjackal]

Good, I'm glad everyone saw this move as completely overrated, and I've no qualm of dropping her ass to low. I only said Reikken as a note because supports were literally the only thing keeping her up there, and he made a point earlier about support slowness not being as much a problem as it is in FE7. So yeah, very uncreative on my part, but I can't exactly be creative with a unit who offers little.

However with these responses in mind, I'd say her spot in low is solidified.

Now here comes Ragefox...

Speaking of Dayan, I could actually see him out of Kenny G. 1. He's got what no other trooper is likely to have at this point due to iron swords sucking royal balls by the time they promote, access to killer blades and slayer weapons, 2. Bows are great to have around for Bern, especially in 21, 3. 20 base AS is nothing to be ashamed of, as it doubles basically everything at this point save hyperspeed units like heroes (and that's it), and D. He's basically a free bastard you get who can use Miugre, and finally E. He can actually take a couple shots before going down. I mean granted he's still not fantastically durable, but compared to Yodel? Yodel has shitty offense, gets 2RKOd by everything and sometimes 1RKOd like with wyvern lords or enemies with 18 AS or more, less move. Healing does not offset being an actually capable fighter, espcially since anyone with a heal staff can do his job anyways, along with actually being able to be on the front lines.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Mekkah]

Healing does not offset being an actually capable fighter

Healing allows you to contribute without using any of your stats at all, and there's plenty people who'd argue healing >>> sucking at fighting.

Of course Dayan's fighting isn't really _that_ bad when he's actually there. He has a practical bow monopoly, which means that he cannot only beat Wyverns, but also Mamkutes convincingly, with 8 move AND 2-range (not taking a 41+ atk counter rules), and there's a few Mamkutes in 21, 23, never mind 24 obviously.

Alas, there's also the issue of no enemy phase bows for Dayan, which actually matters a lot in 21 and 23 because shielding from wyverns is a lot harder than from normal enemies. And he's kinda bad in 22...

--/12 Dayan

Killer Bow: 23 atk, 20 AS, 38 crt*

Silver Bow: 27 atk, 20 AS, 8 crt

Enemies have around 10 luk, so this is like 28 crt in reality, about 48% to crit at least once on a double.

Berserker - 47 hp/10 def/12 AS

Mercenary - 43 hp/10 def/19 AS

Sniper - 49 hp/12 def/14 AS

Druid - 39 hp/9 def/9 AS

Knight - 43 hp/18 def/5 AS

Silver Bow!Dayan does

34/47 to Berserker - 72%

17/43 to Merc - 39%

30/49 to Sniper - 61%

38/39 to Druid - 97%

18/43 to Knight - 41%

Yeah, I don't think those numbers are good at all. That 50/50 crit isn't helping much either, especially not since sometimes he needs a double crit to actually kill (like on the Sniper, he does 2x11, so even 33+11=44, not enough).

I'm too lazy to compare him to a mid tier in damage output right now...if someone else feels like doing it I recommend using Echidna or Noah or something (Echidna isn't mid tier, but she's outlived her wtfown stage).

Anyway, good player phase for 21, bad enemy phase. Then bad on both phases in 22. 23 is about the same as 21. Then really good in 24, but almost anyone with a holy weapon does well in 24...it's just that Dayan has practically his own, plus he has 2-range and massive move.

I can see him above people who don't do anything but sucking, like Barth, though. Partly because he is low maintenance.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Mekkah

[Colonel M]

Dayan does start with C Swords, so for the Enemy Phase if he can only face an Enemy or two he could equip a Killing Edge or a Lancereaver. I wouldn't go too far with pitting him against many enemies in the first place, but yeah over some of the ass units like Barth and Dorothy / Walt I'd see him going over.

[grandjackal]

23 also happens to have wyverns, and Dayan's C swords does help him have enemy phase. Not the best enemy phase, but he's not defenseless at melee.

But alright, rising him above Barth it is.

[Quasar]

Barth isn't totally useless but I can see Dayan being of more use overall. I'd like to see more proof of his case against Dorothy though.

[grandjackal]

Barth isn't totally useless but I can see Dayan being of more use overall. I'd like to see more proof of his case against Dorothy though.

Fair enough, considering Dorothy is borderline Igrene anyways.

If you got a case, bring it up.

[Quasar]

I was kind of hoping you folks would have that case since you're doing the moving around, but sure, I'll throw in something quick.

Dorothy isn't so bad she can't be used, she has 18 chapters before Dayan joins and when he does join Dorothy (20/3 or so, A Saul) isn't losing out on stats a lot. Sure, NT>Sniper but six chapters isn't enough to push her to side.

[grandjackal]

Nyeh. Sounds reasonable anyways, as she'll be vastly outperforming him by the time he shows up.

Dorothy above Dayan.

[Mekkah]

Let's completely skip Dorothy's practically negative utility inbetween?

[Quasar]

I wouldn't say her utility is negative. She has enough speed to avoid being doubled initially by most enemies and enough power to do something against a majority of foes. She's weaker than the rest of your cast yet usable but that sounds awfully similiar to what Dayan is later on.

Edit: Is there really nothing good about Sue? I can't think of anything.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Quasar

[grandjackal]

Let's completely skip Dorothy's practically negative utility inbetween?

Considering she makes up for being one of your best weakener of the dragons early on, is one of like hte only supports for someone severely lacking thereof, and ends up a more than compitent sniper afterwards (especially with Sacae in mind)? She makes up with a payoff at least, but there is merit to this statement. Just pointing out that it's not as bad as you make it out.

I wouldn't say her utility is negative. She has enough speed to avoid being doubled initially by most enemies and enough power to do something against a majority of foes. She's weaker than the rest of your cast yet usable but that sounds awfully similiar to what Dayan is later on.

Edit: Is there really nothing good about Sue? I can't think of anything.

Unlike most other archers as well, she can eventually become an offensive force.

As for Sue? Well if trained, she can reach the possibility of doubling nomads in Sacae, and is a potential goddess there, but...We've discovered the offensive abilities of the Sacaens to be overblown. But yeah, other than being great in Sacae, she's just too damn weak prior, and takes too long to get anywhere, on top of garbage supports.

[dondon151]

Considering she makes up for being one of your best weakener of the dragons early on, is one of like hte only supports for someone severely lacking thereof, and ends up a more than compitent sniper afterwards (especially with Sacae in mind)? She makes up with a payoff at least, but there is merit to this statement. Just pointing out that it's not as bad as you make it out.

FirexIce is shitty in general and Saul doesn't care about bonuses at all for half of his existence, so supports is a weak point.

Dorothy's problem is that her offense happens once per turn and is never any good. For example, in chapter 16 she needs 15 AS to double lower end fighters and mages (the ones that aren't weighed down), and she needs to be promoted for that, which is rather difficult given her dearth of opportunities to attack and gain EXP. Assuming that she goes to Sacae for a comparison to Dayan, even the +3 spd from promotion doesn't even let her double nomads, and what's worse is that now she starts getting countered.

Unlike most other archers as well, she can eventually become an offensive force.

If by "most other archers" you mean Wolt. Sue reaches doubling AS faster, Shin starts off good, Klein starts off good, Igrene starts off OK.

I don't know how much availability should be taken into account, but as crappy as Dorothy's offense is she at least has been doing something for far more chapters than Dayan.

Edited July 11, 2009 by dondon151

[Mekkah]

I disagree that Fire x Ice is shitty (a full avo support is rarely shitty), but I do think you're all overrating Dorothy's performance.

Lately an argument has popped up that Archers' lack of enemy phase does not automatically mean they have to be twice as good as someone like Oujay on player phase to win, because you can often put better frontliners in front of them without that being different from what you'd done otherwise, and then you get to reap the benefits of being able to hide behind other people better, not taking up a spot right in front of an enemy, being able to promote quickly (Orion's Bolt), having access to better exclusive weapons, etc.

However, in FE6 the issue of unit slots also weighs in there, and even considering the Archer's advantages like her Saul support I still think Dorothy is below average for most of the time she's there, to say at least. She is definitely not some kind of dragonslayer right off the bat. 32 atk/73 hit before enemy def/avo with Steel Bow looks nice, but it's still only 19 damage at ~53 disp (56%) real on a Ch7 Wyvern. And after Ch7, wyverns vanish completely for a looong time. The next ones pop up in Ch12 as reinforcements you likely won't fight due to the turn count limit, so Dorothy has to wait until Ch13, and by then people have much less trouble dealing with Wyverns than they did at first. And that "trouble with wyverns" is only going to decrease, as Aircalibur becomes more and more accessible, you get Paladins and Dieck with axes.

Also, let's stop trying to twist Dorothy's Sacae game into a disadvantage or advantage for her. On Nomads, she now goes from not taking counters and not countering to countering and taking counters. Sacae isn't 24/7 bow nomads though, there's also Troopers with swords, Myrmidons, Shamans, Cavaliers, Mages, etc.

[grandjackal]

Precisely why I wanted Dorothy under Dayan in the first place. Now fixing.

[Quasar]

Saul does like the support even before promoting. The Ice part there is helping him quite a bit.

However, in FE6 the issue of unit slots also weighs in there, and even considering the Archer's advantages like her Saul support I still think Dorothy is below average for most of the time she's there, to say at least. She is definitely not some kind of dragonslayer right off the bat. 32 atk/73 hit before enemy def/avo with Steel Bow looks nice, but it's still only 19 damage at ~53 disp (56%) real on a Ch7 Wyvern. And after Ch7, wyverns vanish completely for a looong time. The next ones pop up in Ch12 as reinforcements you likely won't fight due to the turn count limit, so Dorothy has to wait until Ch13, and by then people have much less trouble dealing with Wyverns than they did at first. And that "trouble with wyverns" is only going to decrease, as Aircalibur becomes more and more accessible, you get Paladins and Dieck with axes.

Yeah, there's not a lot of Wyverns to go around. I guess she can use the ballistae in 13 to shoot them earlier to make them less threatening but they're not that bad anymore either way.

It's true she's somewhat worse than your average unit, I'm not denying that. But I don't see her as a hindurance either even considering the unit slot.

Also, let's stop trying to twist Dorothy's Sacae game into a disadvantage or advantage for her. On Nomads, she now goes from not taking counters and not countering to countering and taking counters. Sacae isn't 24/7 bow nomads though, there's also Troopers with swords, Myrmidons, Shamans, Cavaliers, Mages, etc.

There's also the flip side of the coin. While it is convenient to assume Sacae for the sake of comparison Dorothy doesn't have to go there. And speaking of Sacae Dayan's going to have competition for the better bows.

[_____]

There's also the flip side of the coin. While it is convenient to assume Sacae for the sake of comparison Dorothy doesn't have to go there. And speaking of Sacae Dayan's going to have competition for the better bows.

With whom, may I ask? It's not like Shin needs the Brave Bow to double or anything, or even Miugre for the speed. He's fine with a Silver Bow.

Edited July 11, 2009 by Ninji

[Colonel M]

Not sure if it is 100% possible, but Brave Bow on Shin wouldn't be bad to avoid counterattacks against the Nomads.

[Quasar]

With whom, may I ask? It's not like Shin needs the Brave Bow to double or anything, or even Miugre for the speed. He's fine with a Silver Bow.

Just.. what? Dayan doesn't need Brave Bow to double either so we should let it rot in storage because we can double without it? Screw Miugre, we can double with Silver. Who needs that piece of shit. What about 4x attack? More damage with Miugre? Not taking counters like Colonel M pointed out?

Why I brought it up was because I was, or still am, under the impression that Dayan has no competition for those bows (and Longbow) while he clearly has. Not to mention he can't use Miugre instantly.

[_____]

Just.. what? Dayan doesn't need Brave Bow to double either so we should let it rot in storage because we can double without it? Screw Miugre, we can double with Silver. Who needs that piece of shit. What about 4x attack? More damage with Miugre? Not taking counters like Colonel M pointed out?

Why I brought it up was because I was, or still am, under the impression that Dayan has no competition for those bows (and Longbow) while he clearly has. Not to mention he can't use Miugre instantly.

A bit of a mistake on my part.

Shin's more than likely going to one round a large majority of the enemies by this point in the game without Miugre or the Brave Bow; Dayan... well, not a chance. Sure, Wyvern slaying is cool and all, but all of those extra perks that come with Miugre and the Brave Bow benefit Dayan more than Shin, imo.

Then again, I haven't played this game in the longest time, so I may just be plain wrong on this entire subject.

[dondon151]

I disagree that Fire x Ice is shitty (a full avo support is rarely shitty), but I do think you're all overrating Dorothy's performance.

It gives full hit and avo to 2 units that shouldn't be getting hit in the first place, and it gives half everything else. I suppose the shittiest pairing out there is WindxIce, but FirexIce is considerably worse than other pairings.

[Dat Nick]

That still doesn't defeat the fact that neither of them have anybody better to support, but whatever.

[Colonel M]

Or that +Hit helps Dorothy when she's using Steel Bows or Longbows.

[Shadow Mir]

Or that +Hit helps Dorothy when she's using Steel Bows or Longbows.

Or that Longbows fail.

[dondon151]

I didn't say anything about the +hit part. Saul doesn't need it, however.

You guys need to stop pretending that supports are the most important thing in Fire Emblem. They're not. This is compounded by the fact that DorothyxSaul is, relative to other supports, not a very good one.

Edited July 11, 2009 by dondon151

[Colonel M]

Or that Longbows fail.

Fun fact: it has more hit than a Hand Axe and equal to Javelins. Yeah, it's not good, but at least most Bowmen have good Skill to back this up.