grandjackal Posted August 24, 2009 Author Share Posted August 24, 2009 ....Now that you mention it, we did. Hue below them both, however I could see Ray and Lillina going into lower mid with this new mindset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quasar Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 A trained Lilina (post promotion) is the best Mamkute slayer in the game. She 2RKO's them without the S tome IIRC and two range against the monsters is extremely good. I really wish Ray had HM bonuses because he really needs them. The problem with him is that he's not really durable and the combination of lacking skill and using dark magic. Low skill isn't such a huge problem for someone like Gonzales who just swings again and is extremely likely to hit at least once and can take the counter hit. Sure 2 range helps a ton for Ray but assuming you're up against a two range enemy who Ray is able to finish off but is also ORKO'd in return. Looking at Ray's 60 displayed hit here is going to make you sweat bullets. I don't remember a discussion about Hugh dropped to low but I can see why he'd drop. Though comparing him to Ray might be a good idea, I don't really trust old agreements because of excessive negative utility.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted August 24, 2009 Author Share Posted August 24, 2009 A trained Lilina (post promotion) is the best Mamkute slayer in the game. She 2RKO's them without the S tome IIRC and two range against the monsters is extremely good. I really wish Ray had HM bonuses because he really needs them. The problem with him is that he's not really durable and the combination of lacking skill and using dark magic. Low skill isn't such a huge problem for someone like Gonzales who just swings again and is extremely likely to hit at least once and can take the counter hit. Sure 2 range helps a ton for Ray but assuming you're up against a two range enemy who Ray is able to finish off but is also ORKO'd in return. Looking at Ray's 60 displayed hit here is going to make you sweat bullets. I don't remember a discussion about Hugh dropped to low but I can see why he'd drop. Though comparing him to Ray might be a good idea, I don't really trust old agreements because of excessive negative utility.. I can agree with teh Lillina statement. Hell, anyone could. I'd love destroying them without having to use up legend weapons. As for Ray and Lillina...Uhhhh, Lillina needs 15 levels just ot match his base speed ;;>> Granted she'll be overpowering him at higher hit, but he does get help from brother Lou. Durability is questionable. Lillina is bound to have supports built by now, and her light affinity can get major boosts from Gonzales or Barth, or whoever really. Ray however, is just generally tougher statistically, and has Nosferatu in case we fucked up walling him. However, later on this would mean he doesn't really NEED a wall, as then he could basically magic tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quasar Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 I definitely think Ray > Lilina, was just pointing out what I found to be his biggest problem. Since Lilina is clearly better, and I dare say quite a bit better, than Hugh maybe they both should go up a tier to the bottom of low mid. Niime might have a hard time against Ray now too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted August 24, 2009 Author Share Posted August 24, 2009 I'm definitely considering. By the time she shows up, only thing she'll really have on him is Staff Rank, and staffs aren't what they used to be...Physic's nice, but so's supporting someone and being a magic tank without a speed wing. By the time they enter Bern's castle, one thing that's not happening to Ray is being doubled by things like heroes. Status staffs are nice though at least, so it's a tough call. But anyways, anyone object to Lillina and Ray in lower mid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quasar Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 It's kind of hard to estimate Ray's level at Niime's joining time but let's say.. level 19? Seven levels over a ten or so chapters should take low hit into account pretty well. Also let's say Niime gets a Robe since Ray uses funds for promoting. 19/1 Ray 30 HP 19 Mag 14 AS (-1 for Nosferatu) S Dark, shit Staves -/18 Niime 32 HP 21 Mag 15 AS (-1 for Nosferatu, Flux AS already is -1 ) Better hit chance, A Dark and A Staves Both have similiar durability as Ray has more Def (less Res though). Maybe I was overly careful with Ray's levels but I think Niime is the winner, barely. Ray can have some supports going here but they're not going to matter in the outcome and while it's true that Niime isn't going to get a lot better anymore there's not a whole lot of the game left in any case. Ray gathers some utility before this but they should be pretty close in the list it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Also let's say Niime gets a Robe since Ray uses funds for promoting. Let's not, because all it is is 5k to be sold [uNless theres a bazillion magic users in play] which is less than what an Angelic robe costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quasar Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 (edited) Angelic Robe costs 4000 which is less than a Guiding Ring. You don't have enough Guiding Rings in this game to promote your magic users (two found). But the more I think about it the more it seems I put Ray at at too low level, I'll re-do the comparison with 20/2 Ray soon. Edit: here it is. I left the other one back there if someone thinks this is going overboard. 20/2 Ray 31 HP 20 Mag 15 AS (-1 for Nosferatu) S Dark, shit Staves -/18 Niime 32 HP 21 Mag 15 AS (-1 for Nosferatu, Flux AS already is -1 ) Better hit chance, A Dark and A Staves Ray is more durable now due higher Def and pretty much ties offensively. Ray will somewhat outperform her later, and does things earlier but I still say Niime is better right away due A staves. Edited August 24, 2009 by Quasar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted August 24, 2009 Author Share Posted August 24, 2009 (edited) I dunno if it's just me, but I find it hard to imagine Ray would be that low leveled. Maybe it's just me, but...He might be better at combat due to being better at magitanking, but I'd take disabling staffers, warp use, physic and the such over tanking with a specific spell when we got plenty of hard-asses anyways. Though he is basically a free support for Lou. However, this leads me to the next point: Would you say that Ray is absolute null prior to her existence? If so, I will be convinced that Niime>Ray indefinitely. Hard to argue with 20 magic damage off the bat, more with Nosferatu. Edited August 24, 2009 by Robo Ky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quasar Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Ray is definitely contributing earlier too. His problem is mostly that the hit rates make it somewhat annoying or the very least slower for him to level up. I think they're very close but not sure which of them is better overall. Nosferatu is cool and all and absolutely buyable at 14 but the damn thing costs like it's made out of gold. You're not exactly poor in this game but I don't really see Ray (or Niime for that matter) constantly running around vampiring. 3000 when compared to a physical unit staple at that point of the game - Killing Edge at 1300. And that's the most expensive of the Killer weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted August 24, 2009 Author Share Posted August 24, 2009 His hit problem can be slightly circumvented by Lou, who's pretty likely to be played. Pretty fast too. Sure it's only one, but it's better than nothing. He's still able to have the advantage of Nosferatu, allowing him to be self-sufficient at least, meaning he does not need people to specifically heal him. Granted the damn things are expensive though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_____ Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Wait a second. I haven't played this game in a long while, but Sophia > Dorothy does not make any sense whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 Wait a second. I haven't played this game in a long while, but Sophia > Dorothy does not make any sense whatsoever. Show me when Dorothy shows any signs of improvement in any relevent amount of time that would outdo the less painful process or training Sophiya (At least Sphiya can do damage with magic) to get her to 10, promote her, then have staffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Are we really putting THAT much weight on E staves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 Are we really putting THAT much weight on E staves? Show me when Dorothy makes significant improvement at any point in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Dorothy doesn't necessarily have to "improve" a whole lot, she just needs to not be a complete failure and then beat Sophia when Sophia shows, because Sophia is really awful when she shows up. Not only will everything OHKO her, she has Hit issues. The only reason she was even better than Wendy is because Wendy has the same kind of issues but without anything to look forward to. I've never looked into Dorothy's performance, but looking at her averages, I can't imagine Sophia would really beat her. At worst, Dorothy can provide chip damage when units are having a tougher time, and that would probably be > Sophia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 Dorothy doesn't necessarily have to "improve" a whole lot, she just needs to not be a complete failure and then beat Sophia when Sophia shows, because Sophia is really awful when she shows up. Not only will everything OHKO her, she has Hit issues. The only reason she was even better than Wendy is because Wendy has the same kind of issues but without anything to look forward to. I've never looked into Dorothy's performance, but looking at her averages, I can't imagine Sophia would really beat her. At worst, Dorothy can provide chip damage when units are having a tougher time, and that would probably be > Sophia. Weak chip. Starts basically where Walt was before the forcedness stopped. "Improves" to become basically similar to Igrene, who's not exactly stunning. In fact, she's rather bad in the upcoming moments. So basically she's bad forever, and stuck with no way to counter. Sooooooooo, I'd at least take magic chip and staffs to look forward, to needing to be fed kills, levels, and a promotion item to be similar to a mediocre unit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Weak chip. Starts basically where Walt was before the forcedness stopped. "Improves" to become basically similar to Igrene, who's not exactly stunning. In fact, she's rather bad in the upcoming moments. So basically she's bad forever, and stuck with no way to counter. Sooooooooo, I'd at least take magic chip and staffs to look forward, to needing to be fed kills, levels, and a promotion item to be similar to a mediocre unit Hence Wolt > Dorothy. Igrene isn't even that bad, so being like her allows her to at least get some minor positive utility. Dorothy can also support Saul pretty fast for full avoid and some Hit, and maybe Shin as well. And Sophia won't ever be countering a thing if she wants to live. Magic chip damage? In that case, Sophia will never promote. And least not in time for it to matter. Sophia needs to be fed kills, levels, and a promotion item as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 Weak chip. Starts basically where Walt was before the forcedness stopped. "Improves" to become basically similar to Igrene, who's not exactly stunning. In fact, she's rather bad in the upcoming moments. So basically she's bad forever, and stuck with no way to counter. Sooooooooo, I'd at least take magic chip and staffs to look forward, to needing to be fed kills, levels, and a promotion item to be similar to a mediocre unit Hence Wolt > Dorothy. Igrene isn't even that bad, so being like her allows her to at least get some minor positive utility. Dorothy can also support Saul pretty fast for full avoid and some Hit, and maybe Shin as well. And Sophia won't ever be countering a thing if she wants to live. Magic chip damage? In that case, Sophia will never promote. And least not in time for it to matter. Sophia needs to be fed kills, levels, and a promotion item as well. No, no it isn't. Pegasi are too easy to care about needing to bring an archer, and in Sacae, Igrene gets doubled constantly, thus Dorothy will as well. At least when I promote Sophiya, I get something out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uzy5o Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I thought Sophia moved up due to the Guilding Ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Dorothy exceeds your trademark 14 AS after promotion, and since I don't really buy into negative utility, she's contributing before Sophia joins. She's also the best support for Saul, who's likely to be played. I'd say Dorothy is very likely to be > Wolt, though the comparison is mostly between Wolt's extra maps and Dorothy's superiority mid to lategame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 (edited) I can live with Dorothy contributing earlygame as her suck stands out a lot less than Sophia's due to the timeframe, but the question is exactly how much she's contributing since...well, she's Dorothy. Part of me wants to say that Dorothy's earlygame>E rank staves lategame... Edited August 25, 2009 by Joker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 Graaah...fine, Dorothy>Sophia. Dorothy's position is a bit werd at the moment anyways, as I think the archers in general I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I don't put a whole lot of weight on availability due to the law of diminishing marginal returns trivializing the performances of most characters anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 So I've yet to hear any objection to Ray andLillina rising to lower mid, so I shall do so. Putting them below Niime. Should I just throw Garret into low tier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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