Getting a Tier List on this bad boy

[_____]

Dozla and Moulder might. I know I've always found them to have 1 or 2s in the late midgame/lategame, but yeah, Knoll uses it the best.

[CATS]

These are the only units EVER considered to be in play because any other team is inefficent. In fact, let's just cut BOTH tier lists off at the points I posted. Clearly since only the best characters are EVER in play by CATS's logic, anybody below there is never played and thus their positions don't matter.

Quit saying something which has in fact been addressed quite extensively in the past. Going all the way back to the +/- Utility topic......

I maintain that the top 10 units aren't always going to be used, if only because of the RNG; it's perfectly possible for someone such as Eliwood to get crappy levels, while a Upper Mid unit such as Erk or Dorcas gets good levels during Lyn Mode, and ends up getting used instead. More importantly, in some cases it isn't even clear who the top 10 are. In the FE7 list there are only 3 god tier units, then 11 high tier units, and the tiers are not ordered. And a few of these (Pent / Harken and to a lesser extent Ninian) are late joiners, while Matthew won't always be fielded after he hits 20, so you'll be using other units to fill their spots at various points in the game (for example Hector; though clearly not in the top 10 overall, he also clearly provides positive utility during the earlygame).

In other words, afaik, there is no clearly set, objectively determined, universally agreed, etc "perfect team choice." It's more about units who are bad enough that they will almost certainly be among the undesirable choices, which usually entails units who are falling into the lower tiers. It's more difficult to determine exactly who is "good enough" that they are almost certainly being used in any given situation, aside from a few god tier units.

That said, yes, I do maintain that if at some point in the game there's a clearly obvious superior team choice (can't really think of when this would be, I guess the early chapters of FE8 it's still pretty obvious who's good and who isn't), a unit who displaces one of those superior units is lowering your overall performance. This is, as far as I can see, perfectly logical and quite true. How it applies to tiers is probably up to interpretation, but the simple fact in and of itself is pretty obvious.

Yet again, if we were discussing upper mid units, who might or might not make the cutoff for a good team, that would be one thing. But that's not the case here. These units are low/bottom tier. They're not worth using, and it can't be reasonably argued that they are. Or, well, if you think you can reasonably argue that they are worth using, go for it, I guess.

Second of all......so what? Even if it were true that there were only 10 units who were ever fielded, without any exceptions, does this change the fact that Knoll and L'Arachel aren't worth using, or the fact that Knoll would be contributing more on an efficient run? No, ofcourse not.

And the fact that this pisses you off is quite irrelevant. I don't like seeing Seth in his own tier, but I'm not sitting here and bawwwwwing about it, because I know it's logical. If we just say "ok well that's invalid because I just don't like that argument," then it's not a tier list anymore, it's just a group of people putting the units wherever they feel like putting them, according to whatever suits their fancy.

[grandjackal]

Dozla and Moulder might. I know I've always found them to have 1 or 2s in the late midgame/lategame, but yeah, Knoll uses it the best.

Dozla's not exactly devestated by the loss, and Moulder's able to crush any problem of luck simply by supporting thanks to his affinity. We all know how great his situation is there, as it's amazing.

[Florete]

It's true that L'Arachel gets critted way less than Knoll, but it also needs to be considered that this doesn't really matter in the scenario of L'Arachel vs Knoll because L'Arachel's durability sucks dick too. Honestly? I'd say a heavy magic counter with a risk of getting critkilled>>>Doing absolutley nothing when attacked and dying in the same number of hits with barely any more avo.

Uh, I wouldn't. At least with L'Arachel, I can know there's no chance of her being insta-blicked by almost anything that attacks her. And until she promotes (at which point her durability is a lot better), she never has to enter a fight. Knoll also runs into Hit problems, so even his offense isn't that reliable. And he never doubles.

She doesn't do dick that he can't until 7 levels later. He can do in one turn what one would regularly need 3 to do. He is 2 average fighters, 1 hard hitting mage with staffs all in one.

Again, Hoplon Guard, no one else gives a shit for it.

What about healing for several chapters before he shows up?

2 average fighters? Phantoms die in one hit and don't have good offense. Knoll himself is less durable than L'Arachel, never doubles, and runs into Hit issues.

Yes, there's the Hoplon Guard, but there are other candidates. Dozla for one, since if he's in play he actually faces more enemies than Knoll. Cormag has a pretty terrible Luck base, he might like it. Artur's Luck kinda sucks, he could take it. Moulder has bad Luck, he can use it. Plus, there's always the enemies he faces before he even has access to the Hoplon Guard.

She's also a desirable support option for a few people, something Knoll can't claim at all.

In a way, they even distract enemies twice from attacking Knoll. He can protect himself.

This is pretty lol. Why would I deploy a unit just to defend himself?

[Rewjeo]

Desirable support partner? L'arachel is Eirika's second slowest and Ephraim's slowest supports. She's also Inne's and Joshua's second slowest support. This leaves Dozla and Rennac. Rennac's support is pretty slow, though. 25 to C when he joins part way through chapter 14? So this leaves her with Dozla, who admittedly wants her support, but he's at the bottom of lower mid, so there's a good shot at him not being in play. Now, admittedly Knoll's supports are just abysmal, but her's aren't stellar anyways.

What's this about phantoms being so awful? I mean, they aren't as good as your other units, but then again, they're not meant to be that good. They give Knoll a 1-7 range attack (8 if he gets ones with range) which is better than L'arachel is doing without a siege tome. Shame they only have 5 shots, while phantoms have infinite, and that they only work for one attack and don't protect L'arachel on enemy phase. Knoll isn't being played to protect himself, but it means that his bad durability gets a big boost.

Knoll has enough to protect himself that he that he shouldn't even need the Hoplon guard. The fact that he can take it to make up for his horrible luck is just a bonus. L'arachel can't do anything to boost her durability except take a stat booster, and that can't be traded away to help someone else.

[grandjackal]

What about healing for several chapters before he shows up?

Yippee? What, is Moulder, Natasha, promoted Lute, promoted Artur, and Saleh not enough healers for you?

2 average fighters? Phantoms die in one hit and don't have good offense. Knoll himself is less durable than L'Arachel, never doubles, and runs into Hit issues.

I can throw them out with reckless abandon as I lose nothing from their deaths. It's like having generics I can regenerate whenever I damn well feel like it. I could care less what they're like, as I can just throw wave after wave, just because he has the option.

This doesn't change the fact that by the time it takes her staff-only-wielding-ass to promote, the game is almost over, unless we're purposefully playing slow/stupid enough to get her 7 levels in relevent time. I'd take meh combat parameters+healing+summoning>Healing. Where do you get the guts to argue healing a bit prior is in any way superior to this?

Yes, there's the Hoplon Guard, but there are other candidates. Dozla for one, since if he's in play he actually faces more enemies than Knoll. Cormag has a pretty terrible Luck base, he might like it. Artur's Luck kinda sucks, he could take it. Moulder has bad Luck, he can use it. Plus, there's always the enemies he faces before he even has access to the Hoplon Guard.

The latter two people's problems are fixed by supporting of which they have all the time in hte world to do so along with the affinity, the former are tough enough to not give a damn. But if you're that wounded over it, fine. Not like the 2 summons Knoll can magically make appear can't distract the enemy. It can distract at least 2. Should be more than enough to cover your problems. Summoning alone might disregard the entire need for the guard.

She's also a desirable support option for a few people, something Knoll can't claim at all.

Like who? -_- Who the fuck cares at this point?

This is pretty lol. Why would I deploy a unit just to defend himself?

Funny, I think a unit who can defend himself is ALWAYS a plus. Better than a unit who's utterly defenseless, like a certain ditz of a princess I know...

[Florete]

Desirable support partner? L'arachel is Eirika's second slowest and Ephraim's slowest supports. She's also Inne's and Joshua's second slowest support. This leaves Dozla and Rennac. Rennac's support is pretty slow, though. 25 to C when he joins part way through chapter 14? So this leaves her with Dozla, who admittedly wants her support, but he's at the bottom of lower mid, so there's a good shot at him not being in play. Now, admittedly Knoll's supports are just abysmal, but her's aren't stellar anyways.

What about the fact that one of our Lords disapoofs until Chapter 15, at which point their other partners either won't be used or are taken?

What's this about phantoms being so awful? I mean, they aren't as good as your other units, but then again, they're not meant to be that good. They give Knoll a 1-7 range attack (8 if he gets ones with range) which is better than L'arachel is doing without a siege tome. Shame they only have 5 shots, while phantoms have infinite, and that they only work for one attack and don't protect L'arachel on enemy phase. Knoll isn't being played to protect himself, but it means that his bad durability gets a big boost.

What use do Phantoms really have in completing chapters? Weaker enemies can already be creamed by my other guys, and stronger enemies are likely to not be made any easier by a simple Phantom.

It'd be easier if I could see stats of Knoll's level 1 Phantoms, but I've never found them to have any use aside from defending the one that summoned them, aka what was the point?

Knoll has enough to protect himself that he that he shouldn't even need the Hoplon guard. The fact that he can take it to make up for his horrible luck is just a bonus. L'arachel can't do anything to boost her durability except take a stat booster, and that can't be traded away to help someone else.

Or support Eirika on Ephraim's route. Or grow in level.

Yippee? What, is Moulder, Natasha, promoted Lute, promoted Artur, and Saleh not enough healers for you?

What if Artur/Lute aren't promoted yet? What if I'm not using one of Natasha and Moulder and/or they got stat screwed?

I can throw them out with reckless abandon as I lose nothing from their deaths. It's like having generics I can regenerate whenever I damn well feel like it. I could care less what they're like, as I can just throw wave after wave, just because he has the option.

I don't care about tossing wave after wave if they don't do me any good, and I don't see how Phantoms are helping anyone.

This doesn't change the fact that by the time it takes her staff-only-wielding-ass to promote, the game is almost over, unless we're purposefully playing slow/stupid enough to get her 7 levels in relevent time.

Wtf is this shit? Do Physic, Barrier, Torch, and more no longer exist? I can easily get her to 20/1 by chapter 18 at the latest.

I'd take meh combat parameters+healing+summoning>Healing. Where do you get the guts to argue healing a bit prior is in any way superior to this?

Where is Knoll's superiority? L'Arachel's combat will beat his on promotion, she heals just as well or better, and Phantoms aren't worth much. What does Knoll actually have on her? The ability to see enemy crits more easily?

Not like the 2 summons Knoll can magically make appear can't distract the enemy.

How can Knoll make two at a time?

Like who? -_- Who the fuck cares at this point?

Whichever Lord we didn't choose the path of, that's who.

Funny, I think a unit who can defend himself is ALWAYS a plus. Better than a unit who's utterly defenseless, like a certain ditz of a princess I know...

Aside from the fact that L'Arachel's base durability is better than Knoll's, and she doesn't need to promote to have use on the field? You might argue that we have enough promotion items, but I'd rather sell the extra Master Seal and have a unit on horseback that can heal than promote someone who just does more of the same with worse durability and no supports.

I'm serious when I say Knoll > L'Arachel feels as absurd to me as something like Kyle > Seth. All it is is phantoms, but wtf makes them so special? How do they help anyone but Knoll himself?

[Dat Nick]

Yet again, if we were discussing upper mid units, who might or might not make the cutoff for a good team, that would be one thing. But that's not the case here. These units are low/bottom tier. They're not worth using, and it can't be reasonably argued that they are. Or, well, if you think you can reasonably argue that they are worth using, go for it, I guess.

Hey, news flash. We fucking know Knoll and L'Arachel suck. That's still no excuse to say that L'Arachel is not played when comparing her to Knoll, because, you know, we're actually talking about L'Arachel when she IS used.

but I'd rather sell the extra Master Seal

And do WHAT with the money at this point? The silver card just came into play.

The fact that you're arguing against these units being played ever is pretty much cementing the fact you DON'T actually believe a single word you just typed in the negative utility thread.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Joker

[grandjackal]

What use do Phantoms really have in completing chapters? Weaker enemies can already be creamed by my other guys, and stronger enemies are likely to not be made any easier by a simple Phantom.

Since you seem to admit phantoms can do this too, this allows your units to cream units deeper into the map. It's covering more bases.

It'd be easier if I could see stats of Knoll's level 1 Phantoms, but I've never found them to have any use aside from defending the one that summoned them, aka what was the point?

...This is a good point actually. I'm surprised there aren't stats. All I know is I've used them in hard mode, and they're quite effective.

Or support Eirika on Ephraim's route. Or grow in level.

Guess who doesn't need to worry about all that bullshit? Nyuck nyuck nyuck nyuck-

What if Artur/Lute aren't promoted yet? What if I'm not using one of Natasha and Moulder and/or they got stat screwed?

You can't be useless if you have staffs, why wouldn't we promoted Artur/Lute by now? Even then, we still got Saleh, and apparently this game isn't hard enough to warrent so many damn healers.

Oh lemme guess, L'arachel helps us warp skip chapters like Cyrus's chapter 22? Hurrrrrr

I don't care about tossing wave after wave if they don't do me any good, and I don't see how Phantoms are helping anyone.

Extra two combat units no matter how many slots we filled a chapter, of which we can constantly revive. They help reduce counters or even just flat out kill. They help by being completely dispensible. FEDS, generics were planned to basically be the mid tier before the idea of ranking generics as rediculous. That should clue you in.

How can free combat units who are basically in a way immortal not be helpful? Oh, did I mention their equipment is always a random sort of axe? As in...I could get two phantoms with killer weapons?

Wtf is this shit? Do Physic, Barrier, Torch, and more no longer exist? I can easily get her to 20/1 by chapter 18 at the latest.

Since I have plenty of better units who could use these, just to bolster her level with them is nothing but favoritism in my eyes.

Where is Knoll's superiority? L'Arachel's combat will beat his on promotion, she heals just as well or better, and Phantoms aren't worth much. What does Knoll actually have on her? The ability to see enemy crits more easily?

Uhhh, actual combat suddenly doesn't count? Ways to defend himself, healing anyways, able to basically attack 3 people in one turn? Surely, L'arachel's...Staff rank...is...superior?

How can Knoll make two at a time?

When one uses the summon command, you make two. Or have you not played the game/not used Summoners?

Whichever Lord we didn't choose the path of, that's who.

Oh sweet, a C by chapter 18! Lucky day! Thsi isn't FE6. Maps are not only small, but easy. Your support argument holds no water unless you're earlygame.

Aside from the fact that L'Arachel's base durability is better than Knoll's, and she doesn't need to promote to have use on the field? You might argue that we have enough promotion items, but I'd rather sell the extra Master Seal and have a unit on horseback that can heal than promote someone who just does more of the same with worse durability and no supports.

Even considering, getting a dude instantly who can basically attack 3 things in one turn, hit hard with magic and heal? I'd say that's pretty nifty considering we just get that instantly. She needs 7 levels to basically be Saleh on a horse and less weapon choice.

I'm serious when I say Knoll > L'Arachel feels as absurd to me as something like Kyle > Seth. All it is is phantoms, but wtf makes them so special? How do they help anyone but Knoll himself?

Recyclable, random weapons, ultimate distraction, can take care of some things until death, so your main force can power forward even faster with reckless abandon....

[Rewjeo]

Against enemies the someone can't kill? They weaken it. It's not like we care if they die. Besides, if they help Knoll, then guess what? That's a positive. Oh, and by the way, getting her to 20/1 by chapter 18 means OVER THREE LEVELS PER CHAPTER since she isn't going to chapter 15 since she has 1 move there if we're playing efficiently, although it's not quite so ridiculous if she goes there, although it's still way more than she should get.

Supports? Eirika will take Tana or Forde over L'arachel since they start earlier and are faster (and she's getting Seth), and Ephraim also has Kyle, Forde, and Duessel.

And I don't think you realize that phantoms are a great help to his durability. Let's take chapter 15. She has 20 HP and 6 DEF at level 8 (about 1.5 levels per chapter) while he has 24 HP and 3 DEF. She has 12 AS and he has 11. He actually wins RES by 1.5. So looking at those, they have pretty similar concrete durability (they're both getting 2HKOed at best). He has a 25% HP lead while she has 5% in both defense and resistance. Except he actually pulls off a huge win here. Why? Well, he has awesome move her and she has... one. And before you say that he can't use it because he'll get killed by flying enemies, he actually has a great defense against them. His phantoms. Yep, if they charge at him, he can not only run away fairly fast, but he can make summons to distract them. If they target her, well she's just going to die. And I'd say his wins on this chapter cancel out a big part of her wins in the previous three if not completely.

Does anyone have enemy stats? That would make it easier to see just how bad their durability is.

Edit: Knoll's phantom's stats: http://serenesforest.net/fe8/average/phantomk.html

Edited September 2, 2009 by Slize

[CATS]

Enemy stats for Ch 15 through Final available here.

[Mekkah]

Those require you to convert raw to combat stats. :(

For Knoll's Summons, here are the main things I found them useful for in runs I used him (mostly prepromote runs, my 0% growths run, or bad unit runs, but it applies always)

- Distracting a Gorgon. Stone is an extremely dangerous status effect, and Shadowshot/Demon Surge still hurt a lot (they have like 36-40 atk hitting on Res iirc). The same goes for Mogalls, except they can't Stone, and they use Evil Eye instead.

- Killing Gorgon Eggs thanks to large range. You miss out on 50 EXP with this, though, but you also essentially kill a Gorgon before it appears.

- Push someone who is doubling and barely missing out on a 2HKO into a clean 2HKO for player phase.

- Distract a boss attack. Attack Morva/Lyon with ganging up, use Fortify/Latona or something, then put a Summon in his range so all your units can attack him again.

Remember that Summons can also cross all kinds of terrain as if they're Jesus. They don't get terrain bonuses either, so they're basically disguised fliers.

[Florete]

Wait, can Knoll really summon two at a time? I could swear that isn't true.

- Distracting a Gorgon. Stone is an extremely dangerous status effect, and Shadowshot/Demon Surge still hurt a lot (they have like 36-40 atk hitting on Res iirc). The same goes for Mogalls, except they can't Stone, and they use Evil Eye instead.

I never thought of that, that's good. However, it's the only one in that list I'd really find effective.

You can't be useless if you have staffs,

I like that train of thought.

Since I have plenty of better units who could use these, just to bolster her level with them is nothing but favoritism in my eyes.

Barrier always have the same effect, no one "uses it better." The others are only self improvement, but I doubt our other healer really needs it at this point, so I'd think L'Arachel can get it.

And I don't think you realize that phantoms are a great help to his durability. Let's take chapter 15. She has 20 HP and 6 DEF at level 8 (about 1.5 levels per chapter) while he has 24 HP and 3 DEF. She has 12 AS and he has 11. He actually wins RES by 1.5. So looking at those, they have pretty similar concrete durability (they're both getting 2HKOed at best). He has a 25% HP lead while she has 5% in both defense and resistance. Except he actually pulls off a huge win here. Why? Well, he has awesome move her and she has... one. And before you say that he can't use it because he'll get killed by flying enemies, he actually has a great defense against them. His phantoms. Yep, if they charge at him, he can not only run away fairly fast, but he can make summons to distract them. If they target her, well she's just going to die. And I'd say his wins on this chapter cancel out a big part of her wins in the previous three if not completely.

And here's another problem I have. Why is Knoll's Phantoms increasing his durability an advantage for him? What's the point of summoning if it's only to keep the Summoner alive? He'd be helping himself, not the team. At least L'Arachel's staff use will always help the team.

Oh, and did you not take into account his 0 Luck Hoplon Guardless in this map? Anything that attacks him has a real chance to kill him.

Didn't respond to a lot of other stuff cuz I'm tired. Still say Knoll > L'Arachel is BS.

[Jaybee]

Only 1.

[Rewjeo]

... Are you insane? You're asking how Knoll having good durability is an advantage for him? And as for him having no hoplon guard here, that doesn't really matter. He has better movement than everything but flying units, but I already addressed how he keeps himself alive there. Summons and distracts them. How does L'arachel survive them? She makes someone else stop whatever they're doing and save her.

Summons aren't only there to protect Knoll. He can use them to protect, say, L'arachel from those flying units in chapter fifteen. He can use them to save someone if they were critted and almost dead. He can use them as an offensive tool as well. Someone isn't quite ORKOing? Send in a phantom, and now they are. Someone had an unlucky miss? Knoll sends in his phantom to finish it off. Knoll has no one to heal? Send in a phantom. He isn't getting counter attacked and is still attacking. The fact that they are essentially a controllable Big Shield for him or anyone we choose is just another advantage. Oh, and in chapter 15, his phantoms double the peg knights for 18 damage a round. So yeah, they're pretty good offensive tools, too.

[grandjackal]

Why is Marissa not in bottom? I mean, when is she got at anything...Ever?

[Rewjeo]

She might not be bottom on Eirika's route, but Ephraim? Yeah, I see her going to bottom easily there.

[grandjackal]

I would question both routes even. She's literally just a weak fighter with bleh defense. All she has going for her is speed, skill and luck. When her very class is based on needing sheer offense, on top of it she has the unfortunate choice of Ice affinity, the exact OPPOSITE of what she would want. Even worse, no supports want her anyways.

She's a stand alone unit who cannot stand alone. Absolute garbage, how does Eirika route fix this at all?

[CATS]

Not true that no one wants to support Marisa. Gerik finds his second best support in her or Innes (they're about tied--same affinity, almost the exact same number of turns to A, almost the exact same joining time). Joshua can support her, as he has only one option which both joins significantly earlier than Marisa while also matching her speed, and then Colm and Tethys also can support her as they just generally have nothing better to do.

Since we're assuming that to use a unit, you must use them in every chapter, and the question of how inefficient this may be is entirely disregarded. Let's compare Marisa to Ross. smash pinned Ross as 10/8/0 when Dozla joins, i.e., end of Ch 11/start of Ch 12. Marisa joins partway through Ch 10. About 1.5 chaps earlier. Let's say Ross is 10/5/0 when Marisa joins, then.

Base Marisa

7 Atk, 13 Spd----23 Hp, 4 Def, 3 Res, 35 Avo

10/5 Ross

13.5 Atk, 6.9 Spd----26.1 Hp, 6.2 Def, 3.6 Res, 27 Avo

Not too bad considering Ross is a lower mid unit. Yeah, Ross wins since he's been fighting for longer, but Marisa doesn't strike me as bottom tier material. Now let's compare to Rennac, another low tier unit. Marisa has most of 14, all of 11, 12 and 13, and part of 10 before Rennac shows up. 4-5 chaps. L14 (about 2 levels per chap) w/ C Gerik, maybe?

9.7 Atk, 18.4 Spd----29.7 Hp, 6.3 Def, 6.3 Res, 54.8 Avo (holy shat)

Base Rennac? He's such a joke.

10 Atk, 17 Spd----28 Hp, 9 Def, 11 Res, 39 Avo

Marisa's already winning: 1.4 Spd, 1.7 Hp, 15.8 Avo vs 0.3 Atk, 2.7 Def, 4.7 Res. And since Marisa's 6 levels and a promotion behind, not to mention she's got a head start on building supports with her better affinity, it won't be long before she's really kicking Rennac's ass. Rennac has thief stuffs, sure, but Marisa wins at combat by quite a bit. So I'd say they belong in the same tier.

Edited September 2, 2009 by CATS

[Rewjeo]

You do realize that she's losing attack, defense, and resistance, and only winning by a tiny amount of HP (not nearly enough to make up for the defense/resistance loss), some superfluous speed, and some (admittedly helpful) avoid. To a unit who got into low for utility. Even with 2 levels per chapter, she actually LOSES to RENNAC in COMBAT. That's worthy of bottom tier.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Slize

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

Uh, no she's not, that's a clear but slight combat win, and she could just promote now if you wanted her to win more.

[CATS]

You do realize that she's losing attack, defense, and resistance, and only winning by a tiny amount of HP (not nearly enough to make up for the defense/resistance loss), some superfluous speed, and some (admittedly helpful) avoid. To a unit who got into low for utility. Even with 2 levels per chapter, she actually LOSES to RENNAC in COMBAT. That's worthy of bottom tier.

Superfluous speed? Ch 15's enemies would beg to differ with you on that. The Fencers in that chap can easily land between 14-15 AS, there's a Berserker who can get 14, and most importantly, the Rangers have 14-16 AS depending on what weapon they're using.

I like how you called Marisa's 1.7 Hp lead "tiny," while citing Rennac's Atk lead yet failing to mention that he's only winning Atk by a mighty three-tenths of a point (his Atk lead is about 5-6 times smaller than Marisa's tiny Hp lead).

16 Avo, 1-2 Hp > 2-3 Def

1.4 Spd > 0.3 Atk

As Destiny Puck said, it's small, but it's also pretty clear. And remember this is when Marisa compares the worst. Let's see how they might be doing later, say Ch 19. I'll just say Marisa got to 21, and Rennac got to L5. On supports, Marisa has maybe B Gerik (~5 turns per chapter) and C Colm (~4 turns per chapter). Rennac's fastest C's are 35 turns, so to get them by Ch 19 would be around ~9 turns per chapter, which isn't happening. Or if supports do grow that quickly, then Marisa's own supports would be higher too, so w/e. It would still be no help to Rennac's case.

21 Swordmaster Marisa, B Gerik, C Colm

13.5 Atk, 19.9 Spd----38.2 Hp, 11.2 Def, 10.8 Res, 68.3 Avo

5 Rennac

11 Atk, 19.4 Spd----30.6 Hp, 10 Def, 12.2 Res, 44.8 Avo

2.5 Atk, 0.5 Spd, 7.6 Hp, 1.2 Def, 23.5 Avo (lolololol) vs 1.4 Res

Ouch.

Now, if we were to acknowledge the fact that Marisa shouldn't be getting so many levels in the first place, on account of still sucking compared to the rest of everyone, I'd agree with you. I'd agree that Rennac's desert utility is probably more helpful than Marisa just generally sucking at combat.

However, since the current attitude seems to be that units must be used in each and every chapter after their recruitment in order to be compared, and that it does not matter how inefficient it might be to do so, nor does it matter that we could've just been using someone better in that spot, Marisa has a case. A pretty strong one, actually, as this is a fairly large win at combat, and here Marisa has been fighting and helping out for 4-5 chaps before Rennac even joins.

Edited September 2, 2009 by CATS

[Rewjeo]

Clear combat win? How so? She has nothing but speed and avoid. Too bad if she wields anything heavier than an iron sword, he actually wins AS, and it cuts into her avoid win. He has three defense and five resistance. I'm going to say he wins this one.

Later on she wins, but again, when you consider that she loses to RENNAC in combat when he joins, and even then she needs a ton of training while being absolutely awful to get there, it's obvious she's worse.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Slize

[CATS]

Clear combat win? How so? She has nothing but speed and avoid. Too bad if she wields anything heavier than an iron sword, he actually wins AS, and it cuts into her avoid win. He has three defense and five resistance. I'm going to say he wins this one.

Rennac's Con win is 2 points, while Marisa's Spd win is 1.4. So when they use something besides Iron Sword, Marisa's Avo lead is cut by 1.2 points. Oh noes. EDIT: Whoops, realized this is wrong. Marisa's Avo lead gets cut by the full 4 points. I still don't think it's going to turn the tables, though.

The Fencers have barely any Def, so Marisa doubling with Iron still does more than Rennac hitting once with Steel. 4-5 Def, so Iron Sword Marisa does double 11's or 12's, while Steel Sword Rennac just does 13-14 damage once. The zerker has 8 Def and WTD, so Marisa doubling with Iron is 15.4 total damage, while a single Steel Sword hit from Rennac is 11 damage. Rangers go up to 10 Def, so Rennac finally manages to almost tie total damage here, doing 8 damage once compared to Marisa's 4.7 damage twice, for 9.4 total. Note the word almost, though. Marisa still does slightly more. And notice that Rennac using Steel is -6 Avo. Not only is Marisa winning offense here, but Rennac has to make the defense gap wider in order to even try and keep up.

2.7 Def beats 15.8 Avo? Maybe, if you somehow forget that Marisa also leads in Hp by 1.7. 1.7 is already over half of Rennac's Def lead. Throw in a boatload of Avo on top and I don't see how Rennac's defense is better. If you still insist on disagreeing, then I could go into detail.

Later on she wins, but again, when you consider that she loses to RENNAC in combat when he joins, and even then she needs a ton of training while being absolutely awful to get there, it's obvious she's worse.

And judging by the way that people freaked out when it was suggested earlier that L'Arachel shouldn't be trained, it's obvious that needing to be trained is considered irrelevant (unless I guess if you're Amelia/Ewan and you just suck way too much). After all, if we acknowledge that certain units are not worth training, then we might as well cut the tier list off at high tier, since no one below that is ever worth training.

Edited September 2, 2009 by CATS

[Rewjeo]

I'm glad you ignored the fact that he wins resistance by FIVE. He also has a 100% chance to pick up items in the desert, and other thief utility.

It would be nice if we had enemy stats for earlier in the game, but just to show how awful she is when she joins:

15 ATK soldiers/mages 2HKO her.

She has 12 ATK with her Shamshir or an Iron Sword. If an enemy had 3 DEF and 20 HP, she'd need a crit to kill. If there was a soldier with, say, 25 HP and 5 DEF? She'd need two crits to kill it, while he only needs 5 strength to 2HKO with a steel lance. If she takes out a steel sword, she jumps up to 15 ATK which 3HKOs, so she still needs a crit, and now her AS drops down to 8, and her avoid loses 10.

I admit she wins combat once Rennac joins, though. Although it's still minor. And that's just sad. We've been dealing with her suck and giving her two levels a chapter for what? Someone who barely beats Rennac in combat.

Oh, and L'arachel SHOULDN'T be trained. That doesn't mean she WON'T be.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Slize