Getting a Tier List on this bad boy

[grandjackal]

Now why would Gerik take pathetic Marissa over Innes, and why wouldn't Joshua take that earlier support since it uhhhh, comes earlier? On top of it, a tad late to be building up supports, don't ya think? Then we go through the trouble of raising a unit who wouldn't even be particularly stunning at the start of the game into a combatant that's basically worse than Rennac. On top of that, she costs a seal to be worse than him in combat. I don't know how you could get more pathetic. On top of that, Rennac is far mroe useful because he steals things, picks locks and chiests for basically free, and we didn't need to drop a seal on him to do so.

Bottom tier is reserved for those who are absolutely useless, and as far as I'm concerned...

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

I'm glad you ignored the fact that he wins resistance by FIVE. He also has a 100% chance to pick up items in the desert, and other thief utility.

It would be nice if we had enemy stats for earlier in the game, but just to show how awful she is when she joins:

15 ATK soldiers/mages 2HKO her.

She has 12 ATK with her Shamshir or an Iron Sword. If an enemy had 3 DEF and 20 HP, she'd need a crit to kill. If there was a soldier with, say, 25 HP and 5 DEF? She'd need two crits to kill it, while he only needs 5 strength to 2HKO with a steel lance. If she takes out a steel sword, she jumps up to 15 ATK which 3HKOs, so she still needs a crit, and now her AS drops down to 8, and her avoid loses 10.

I admit she wins combat once Rennac joins, though. Although it's still minor. And that's just sad. We've been dealing with her suck and giving her two levels a chapter for what? Someone who barely beats Rennac in combat.

Oh, and L'arachel SHOULDN'T be trained. That doesn't mean she WON'T be.

You do know marisa can just immediately promote right and kick his ass across the board for the rest of the game aside from his thief utility?

[grandjackal]

I'm glad you ignored the fact that he wins resistance by FIVE. He also has a 100% chance to pick up items in the desert, and other thief utility.

It would be nice if we had enemy stats for earlier in the game, but just to show how awful she is when she joins:

15 ATK soldiers/mages 2HKO her.

She has 12 ATK with her Shamshir or an Iron Sword. If an enemy had 3 DEF and 20 HP, she'd need a crit to kill. If there was a soldier with, say, 25 HP and 5 DEF? She'd need two crits to kill it, while he only needs 5 strength to 2HKO with a steel lance. If she takes out a steel sword, she jumps up to 15 ATK which 3HKOs, so she still needs a crit, and now her AS drops down to 8, and her avoid loses 10.

I admit she wins combat once Rennac joins, though. Although it's still minor. And that's just sad. We've been dealing with her suck and giving her two levels a chapter for what? Someone who barely beats Rennac in combat.

Oh, and L'arachel SHOULDN'T be trained. That doesn't mean she WON'T be.

You do know marisa can just immediately promote right and kick his ass across the board for the rest of the game aside from his thief utility?

Even if that were true (it's not, she's level 5), these would be her stats.

30 HP, 10 Str, 15 Skill, 16 Speed, 11 Luck, 6 Def, 5 Res

To Rennac base, she wins 2 HP and 5 luck. He wins by 2 skill, 1 speed, 3 Def, 6 Res

Rennac wins, fatality.

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

I'm glad you ignored the fact that he wins resistance by FIVE. He also has a 100% chance to pick up items in the desert, and other thief utility.

It would be nice if we had enemy stats for earlier in the game, but just to show how awful she is when she joins:

15 ATK soldiers/mages 2HKO her.

She has 12 ATK with her Shamshir or an Iron Sword. If an enemy had 3 DEF and 20 HP, she'd need a crit to kill. If there was a soldier with, say, 25 HP and 5 DEF? She'd need two crits to kill it, while he only needs 5 strength to 2HKO with a steel lance. If she takes out a steel sword, she jumps up to 15 ATK which 3HKOs, so she still needs a crit, and now her AS drops down to 8, and her avoid loses 10.

I admit she wins combat once Rennac joins, though. Although it's still minor. And that's just sad. We've been dealing with her suck and giving her two levels a chapter for what? Someone who barely beats Rennac in combat.

Oh, and L'arachel SHOULDN'T be trained. That doesn't mean she WON'T be.

You do know marisa can just immediately promote right and kick his ass across the board for the rest of the game aside from his thief utility?

Even if that were true (it's not, she's level 5), these would be her stats.

30 HP, 10 Str, 15 Skill, 16 Speed, 11 Luck, 6 Def, 5 Res

To Rennac base, she wins 2 HP and 5 luck. He wins by 2 skill, 1 speed, 3 Def, 6 Res

Rennac wins, fatality.

I phrased that wrong I meant on the chapter rennac joins.

[Dat Nick]

Id most certainly say thief utility>A tier up on pretty much the same stats.

Oh, and an EXP boost. Rennac's growths are more or less the same as hers too which is just lol.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Joker

[Florete]

If it helps, I did on analysis on Marisa's starting performance earlier in the topic.

Mind backing up Marisa's poor combat? I know for one thing that she has very reliable crit proc% post promotion while being within 4HKO range of most enemies. That puts her at Joshua-level pretty much, and he's ranked much higher than her.

4HKOing post promotion already doesn't sound good. Let's check out her start. I only have Eirika save states, so that'll have to do for now. Either way, she comes with a Shamshir, which gives her 15 MT and 41 crit, along with 13 AS.

She two rounds everything she doubles. It's always a 3-4HKO.

Myrmidons (which she can't double) are three rounded by her. They have 3-4 Luck as well.

Mercenaries (Still can't double) have to have 6/26-27 Def/HP for her to three round, otherwise it's a 4 round, and those are the weakest ones (Looking at it now, only 1/6 is that weak).

So, offensively, she's not that bad, especially since she has high crit and will level up within the chapter. But defensively?

Anything with 16+ MT will 2RKO her. That's 21 of the starting enemies on the map out of 39 enemies (not including the Priest), or ~54%. A lot of those are Soldiers, who pull 61-87% true hit on her, and then there are some Steel Sword Mercenaries who pull ~82% true on her while still in 2HKO range, and Myrmidons who are weaker but pull near 100% Hit on her. If she wields anything with more than 5 Wt (anything but Shamshir, Iron Sword, lolSlim Sword, and Wyrmslayer), her avoid is hurt even further.

And I didn't check, but I believe there are also Gargoyle reinforcements who will also pull WTA against her and probably be a serious threat. Actually, that's what she'd more likely be facing, since she won't be recruited immediately.

She has high experience gain, but she needs a lot to get out of her defensive hole. She has a respectable 170% avoid growth, but only 75% HP and 15% Def. And Shamshir doesn't last long either, so if she wants to retain power, she'll need heavier swords, which will make her lose avoid.

That reminds me, that was Eirika route Marisa. Ephraim route joins two maps later, so her position would be even worse.

[grandjackal]

Sounds pretty bottom to me.

To Lancelot: When you're promoting, and STILL doing worse than Rennac...

Oh! Did I mention her growths aren't even better and that Rogues keep Elite?

Basically 10% HP and 5% Str (of which make little difference) vs his 10% Def and faster leveling speed.

Even after promotion, he has plenty of advantages on her, and his combat SUCKS!

Can't even make her an assassin, he'd have more crit. Rennac is a better assassin than an actual assassin we can get in-game. FAIL!

Plus: Who else is Tethys supporting? Nyuck nyuck nyuck nyuck.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Sounds pretty bottom to me.

To Lancelot: When you're promoting, and STILL doing worse than Rennac...

Oh! Did I mention her growths aren't even better and that Rogues keep Elite?

Basically 10% HP and 5% Str (of which make little difference) vs his 10% Def and faster leveling speed.

Even after promotion, he has plenty of advantages on her, and his combat SUCKS!

Can't even make her an assassin, he'd have more crit. Rennac is a better assassin than an actual assassin we can get in-game. FAIL!

Plus: Who else is Tethys supporting? Nyuck nyuck nyuck nyuck.

So? Knock her into bottom then. Then she can at least make the claim of making this game more difficult. Which is probably the best utility you can have in this game.

[grandjackal]

Sounds pretty bottom to me.

To Lancelot: When you're promoting, and STILL doing worse than Rennac...

Oh! Did I mention her growths aren't even better and that Rogues keep Elite?

Basically 10% HP and 5% Str (of which make little difference) vs his 10% Def and faster leveling speed.

Even after promotion, he has plenty of advantages on her, and his combat SUCKS!

Can't even make her an assassin, he'd have more crit. Rennac is a better assassin than an actual assassin we can get in-game. FAIL!

Plus: Who else is Tethys supporting? Nyuck nyuck nyuck nyuck.

So? Knock her into bottom then. Then she can at least make the claim of making this game more difficult. Which is probably the best utility you can have in this game.

....That's what I was hoping to do...;;>> Did you have a brain fart, or did you just forget what you were arguing about?

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Sounds pretty bottom to me.

To Lancelot: When you're promoting, and STILL doing worse than Rennac...

Oh! Did I mention her growths aren't even better and that Rogues keep Elite?

Basically 10% HP and 5% Str (of which make little difference) vs his 10% Def and faster leveling speed.

Even after promotion, he has plenty of advantages on her, and his combat SUCKS!

Can't even make her an assassin, he'd have more crit. Rennac is a better assassin than an actual assassin we can get in-game. FAIL!

Plus: Who else is Tethys supporting? Nyuck nyuck nyuck nyuck.

So? Knock her into bottom then. Then she can at least make the claim of making this game more difficult. Which is probably the best utility you can have in this game.

....That's what I was hoping to do...;;>> Did you have a brain fart, or did you just forget what you were arguing about?

All I did was post two sentences. I wouldn't really call that an arguement. Edited September 3, 2009 by Lancelot

[Florete]

Now why would Gerik take pathetic Marissa over Innes, and why wouldn't Joshua take that earlier support since it uhhhh, comes earlier? On top of it, a tad late to be building up supports, don't ya think? Then we go through the trouble of raising a unit who wouldn't even be particularly stunning at the start of the game into a combatant that's basically worse than Rennac. On top of that, she costs a seal to be worse than him in combat. I don't know how you could get more pathetic. On top of that, Rennac is far mroe useful because he steals things, picks locks and chiests for basically free, and we didn't need to drop a seal on him to do so.

Bottom tier is reserved for those who are absolutely useless, and as far as I'm concerned...

I don't care about Marisa going to Bottom, but if she's in play, she actually is a good partner for Gerik. Aside from Tethys, she's his fastest, but supporting Dancers is shaky as-is. Innes is the same bonuses for only two more turns, but might be trickier to build since he has more move and a 2 range lock instead of 1 range. Ross sucks, and Saleh and Joshua's bonuses are arguably inferior.

Joshua might also take her if he didn't get Artur already. That would be Marisa's B. Unless you wanted to make a case for a GerikxTethysxMarisa triangle.

[grandjackal]

Now why would Gerik take pathetic Marissa over Innes, and why wouldn't Joshua take that earlier support since it uhhhh, comes earlier? On top of it, a tad late to be building up supports, don't ya think? Then we go through the trouble of raising a unit who wouldn't even be particularly stunning at the start of the game into a combatant that's basically worse than Rennac. On top of that, she costs a seal to be worse than him in combat. I don't know how you could get more pathetic. On top of that, Rennac is far mroe useful because he steals things, picks locks and chiests for basically free, and we didn't need to drop a seal on him to do so.

Bottom tier is reserved for those who are absolutely useless, and as far as I'm concerned...

I don't care about Marisa going to Bottom, but if she's in play, she actually is a good partner for Gerik. Aside from Tethys, she's his fastest, but supporting Dancers is shaky as-is. Innes is the same bonuses for only two more turns, but might be trickier to build since he has more move and a 2 range lock instead of 1 range. Ross sucks, and Saleh and Joshua's bonuses are arguably inferior.

Joshua might also take her if he didn't get Artur already. That would be Marisa's B. Unless you wanted to make a case for a GerikxTethysxMarisa triangle.

Gerick would prefer them all, because all she gives is Ice to his Thunder. He has no problem surviving. These two give him far more crit, bit more offense, and don't suck so hard.

Joshua has about every other option under the sun before Marissa.

As for Rennac, he does has a couple options. Colm for 1. Similar jobs. Before you "smite" me for denying him an earlier support...What earlier support? X3 All he's got is Moulder, who's probably gonna A with Vanessa anyways. All that's left is lolNiime, Kyle who has Kyle and Ephraim, Lute is faster and more effective due to extra avoid. They get more crit (ya know, if Colm wants to go assassin, helps Rennac's offense), bit more avoid and the such. On top of that if Dozla's in play, he is most CERTAINLY getting a Rennac support. More hit, more crit, both get more defense, he's low on friends anyways...

At least Rennac's supports might actually WANT him...Even funnier is that this gives him far more crit than Marissa will ever get anyways. He's a better swordmaster than she is.

Nyucknucknyucknyuck.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Florete]

Gerick would prefer them all, because all she gives is Ice to his Thunder. He has no problem surviving. These two give him far more crit, bit more offense, and don't suck so hard.

Sucking is irrelevant right now. It's if Marisa is in play.

And full Def and avoid is suddenly bad now? Especially since his 90% avoid growth doesn't do a whole lot of favors.

Joshua has about every other option under the sun before Marissa.

Don't you mean just Natasha? Innes and Artur give the same bonuses. L'Arachel apparently sucks too much. Gerik is there, but look, he'd probably prefer Marisa.

As for Rennac, he does has a couple options. Colm for 1. Similar jobs.

Lolwhat? Supporting thieves is shaky already, but supporting two together? The only reason they'd be on the map together is if you need two to reach everything, aka they won't be anywhere near each other.

Before you "smite" me for denying him an earlier support...What earlier support? X3 All he's got is Moulder, who's probably gonna A with Vanessa anyways.

5 move healer and 7 move flier. Spot the problem.

All that's left is lolNiime, Kyle who has Kyle and Ephraim,

Kyle has himself? By the way, If Neimi is in play, ColmxNeimi is a definite go. Yay at immediate C.

And didn't you say something about it being too late for supports? Rennac joins after Marisa.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[grandjackal]

Sucking is irrelevant right now. It's if Marisa is in play.

Which would be great, if her other supporters didn't have any other options. She's not Dozla here.

And full Def and avoid is suddenly bad now? Especially since his 90% avoid growth doesn't do a whole lot of favors.

He could promote instantly and get these stats.

36 HP, 15 Str, 15 Skill, 15 Speed, 8 Luck, 12 Def, 6 Res

With Weapon Control. Remind me to care later. Let's compare A Tethys and B Joshua to A Tethys, B Marrisa.

A B Teth Josh

2 ATK, 2 Def, 20 avoid, 25 Crit, lolhit.

A B Teth Mar

1 ATK, 4 Def, 25 Avoid, 20 crit, lolhit

I'd take the offense to be honest. This isn't FE6 where we'd actually need to consider the option. Gerik's already enough of a hardass.

Don't you mean just Natasha? Innes and Artur give the same bonuses. L'Arachel apparently sucks too much. Gerik is there, but look, he'd probably prefer Marisa.

Yes, he would prefer the person who gives...The same bonuses. Notice what most of these people aside from L'arafail? They're all ice. So for Marissa to get this support, we'd have to not play 2 much better people who give the same exact bonuses...GENIUS!

Lolwhat? Supporting thieves is shaky already, but supporting two together? The only reason they'd be on the map together is if you need two to reach everything, aka they won't be anywhere near each other.

What if Colm goes Assassin? I don't see many others giving him crit like Rennac. Needless to say, not every chest has to be gotten by thieves. There are things called keys ya know...Once they get all the chests, then what? Well I dunno about you, but I don't just want them to sit on hteir ass for the rest of the chapter.

5 move healer and 7 move flier. Spot the problem.

Double Anima is an auto-bite me. 3 ATK, 3 Def and 15 avoid is too much, it might as well be a double earth+water support with cheese. For how tough Moulder ends up being, she could fly him with her for all he cares. Flight fighting with actual healing and basically a water+earthx2 support? To hell with anything you have to counter that.

Speaking of which, some maps Colm has to wonder off to get chests, of which Moulder would prefer to push towards the objective as he heals people. He's not necessarily following him along anyways. Also, still a move difference regardless, and Colm can't just pick Moulder's big ass up and carry him around with him either.

Kyle has himself? By the way, If Neimi is in play, ColmxNeimi is a definite go. Yay at immediate C.

I meant Forde, smartass. Problem with Neimi is that Neimi blows. He's not garunteed her every playthrough by any means. I don't even see what's so special about it. How badly could you missmatch the classes?

And didn't you say something about it being too late for supports? Rennac joins after Marisa.

That's an advantage for me, missy. Rennac doesn't need supports to be useful, and he's superior to Marissa as is anyways.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Florete]

He could promote instantly and get these stats.

36 HP, 15 Str, 15 Skill, 15 Speed, 8 Luck, 12 Def, 6 Res

Why would you insta-promote him? He'll grow faster as a Mercenary and with pretty good bases.

With Weapon Control. Remind me to care later. Let's compare A Tethys and B Joshua to A Tethys, B Marrisa.

A B Teth Josh

2 ATK, 2 Def, 20 avoid, 25 Crit, lolhit.

A B Teth Mar

1 ATK, 4 Def, 25 Avoid, 20 crit, lolhit

I'd take the offense to be honest. This isn't FE6 where we'd actually need to consider the option. Gerik's already enough of a hardass.

I don't see how +1 atk and +5 crit does a whole lot in this game where he's probably ORKOing just about everything anyway, but the +2 Def and +5 avoid can give him more enemy exposure, which would allow him to kill more things without needing healing.

Yes, he would prefer the person who gives...The same bonuses. Notice what most of these people aside from L'arafail? They're all ice. So for Marissa to get this support, we'd have to not play 2 much better people who give the same exact bonuses...GENIUS!

Again: I'm assuming Marisa is already in play. And also, same bonuses, different roles. Marisa and Joshua have the same move and can trade weapons even. Innes has +1 move and uses bows, and Artur is usually 2 range as well. And his Innes support is significantly slower.

What if Colm goes Assassin? I don't see many others giving him crit like Rennac. Needless to say, not every chest has to be gotten by thieves. There are things called keys ya know...Once they get all the chests, then what? Well I dunno about you, but I don't just want them to sit on hteir ass for the rest of the chapter.

Then it'll just build really slowly, or you might not have time at all. And why would we even deploy Rennac if we're just going to have others use Chest Keys? Thieving is the reason he's not lower than he already is. Besides, Colm has Moulder and...check it out, Marisa.

Double Anima is an auto-bite me. 3 ATK, 3 Def and 15 avoid is too much, it might as well be a double earth+water support with cheese. For how tough Moulder ends up being, she could fly him with her for all he cares. Flight fighting with actual healing and basically a water+earthx2 support? To hell with anything you have to counter that.

Bull-fucking-shit. A healer on the ground and someone who's flying away? It was a difficult to job to try justifying LutexVanessa, and MoulderxVanessa is significantly worse. It's much easier to support Moulder with Colm and/or Gilliam.

Speaking of which, some maps Colm has to wonder off to get chests, of which Moulder would prefer to push towards the objective as he heals people. He's not necessarily following him along anyways. Also, still a move difference regardless, and Colm can't just pick Moulder's big ass up and carry him around with him either.

Wtf is this shit? Move difference matters for ColmxMoulder (doesn't exist when Moulder promotes by the way) but not MoulderxVanessa? Rescuing doesn't even build support. Stop bullshitting me.

Problem with Neimi is that Neimi blows. He's not garunteed her every playthrough by any means.

Which was the point of the "If she's in play" part. You seem to miss that a lot.

I don't even see what's so special about it. How badly could you missmatch the classes?

It would be worse if it was foot healerxflier. And this builds at lightning speed, so it won't be long before you just have to keep them within 3 spaces.

That's an advantage for me, missy. Rennac doesn't need supports to be useful, and he's superior to Marissa as is anyways.

What? I don't care if Rennac > Marisa, but I'd argue Rennac's not highly useful anyway, since you yourself mentioned Chest Keys. Low tier isn't very good at all.

[Rewjeo]

Why are you still arguing since you both agree on Marisa in Bottom?

[grandjackal]

Why is EVERYONE arguing me about points we ALL seem to agree on? I'm just confused at this point.

[CATS]

I'm glad you ignored the fact that he wins resistance by FIVE. He also has a 100% chance to pick up items in the desert, and other thief utility.

Yeah, five Res. He might win MDef. Even if he does, he's losing at physical defense, which is more important.

Thief utility, yes. I acknowledged already that Rennac has thief utility; he can get items in Ch 15, and can steal that Ch 17 Dragonshield I suppose. In my eyes, this is the only reason that he has a case in the first place, since he's losing at combat. It's better combat vs thief stuff. Both sides have an argument for them, so I don't think a tier gap is justified.

It would be nice if we had enemy stats for earlier in the game, but just to show how awful she is when she joins

Doesn't particularly matter if negative utility doesn't exist, since Rennac's not there at all, and she's not so sucky that she can't realistically get Exp, like Ewan/Amelia.

Oh, and L'arachel SHOULDN'T be trained. That doesn't mean she WON'T be.

If negative utility does not exist, then I don't see why L'Arachel shouldn't be trained.

I admit she wins combat once Rennac joins, though. Although it's still minor. And that's just sad. We've been dealing with her suck and giving her two levels a chapter for what? Someone who barely beats Rennac in combat.

*when he first joins

She wins by quite alot later. The game does not end at Ch 15.

Now why would Gerik take pathetic Marissa over Innes, and why wouldn't Joshua take that earlier support since it uhhhh, comes earlier?

Innes and Marisa are about the same speed with the same affinity. Indeed Marisa support is more likely since she's melee while Innes is ranged, meaning Marisa has greater need of the defensive boosts (and Thunder x Ice gives no Atk).

As for Joshua, again, Artur joins earlier, but he's considerably slower. 40 more turns to A.

Also, loltriangles. This was brought up in the FE7 tier topic a while back, that support triangles are desirable. Marisa x Gerik x Tethys is a triangle, as is Marisa x Gerik x Joshua.

On top of it, a tad late to be building up supports, don't ya think?

For Rennac, maybe. Marisa has half of the game to build supports, and actually has a couple fast supports. Rennac has only about a fourth of the game and all of his supports are slow.

Oh, and an EXP boost. Rennac's growths are more or less the same as hers too which is just lol.

If he's off hunting for items in Ch 15 rather than fighting, then he's not getting much Exp.

The Exp boost helps him gain more Exp than other promoted units would, but he's still gaining less Exp than an unpromoted unit.

http://serenesforest.net/fe8/calc.html

Only Thieves get a Class Power of 2, which is the biggest factor in the Exp boost. Rogues just have 3 like everything else.

Booting up the actual game......

A L1 Bishop Moulder (who gets the same Exp boost as Rennac) gets 13 Exp for killing a L9 unpromoted enemy, so Rennac killing one of Ch 15's L13 unpromoted enemies would be less than that, while a L14 Marisa gets 27 for a kill against those same enemies.

Edited September 3, 2009 by CATS

[Rewjeo]

IF negative utility doesn't exist. I'd argue otherwise. Oh, and by the way, Marisa is basically so awful she can't be trained. Lol at getting 2HKOed and 4HKOing. And then we train her, and what do we get? A sub par combat unit.

Oh, and how is she winning physical durability? He has defense, she has avoid. I'd call it about equal.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Slize

[CATS]

IF negative utility doesn't exist. I'd argue otherwise.

I would too, and I would strongly agree Rennac > Marisa if we acknowledge its existence, since Marisa is indeed not worth training. I was just assuming that we're taking the "negative utility doesn't exist" stance, since with L'Arachel vs Knoll, people flipped when it was suggested that L'Arachel shouldn't be trained in the first place. Now people seem to be leaning the other way, for no apparent reason.

Currently I just don't know what to think--seems like people are just applying negative utility when it helps their side of the argument, then saying "negative utility? but then NO ONE below high tier is EVER used" whenever it helps the other side. For example, Joker. In the FE6 tier list he was strongly protesting the idea that Marcus has to be fielded in every chapter in order to be tiered, saying that it's a terrible excuse for boning over utility characters. But here, he pulled the "but then NO ONE below high tier is EVER used" card when it was pointed out that the most efficient way to use L'Arachel and Knoll is to not field them in every chap. Especially odd since they're most definitely utility characters, considering their main jobs are to heal and/or summon.

Too bad that the +/- Utility topic died without any sort of a general consensus being reached.

Oh, and by the way, Marisa is basically so awful she can't be trained. Lol at getting 2HKOed and 4HKOing. And then we train her, and what do we get? A sub par combat unit.

Nah, I've got some enemy stats. Ch 10's Mages are two-rounded and 3HKO her. The Fighters are also two-rounded, and while they can 2HKO Marisa, they also suck at hitting her. The Archers are two-rounded, and the ones with Iron Bows 3HKO Marisa, while the Steel Bow guys can 2HKO. With Soldiers, remember that they have like 1 Def. Iron Sword Marisa easily two-rounds them, and yeah she generally gets 2HKO'd in return, but there are actually a couple of Soldiers who for some reason have Slim Lances, and can only 3HKO her.

She sucks, sure, but not so much that she's incapable of getting Exp. She's generally two-rounding the enemies, so she can easily get kills. And remember that her abilities pick up fairly quick, considering she gets a level from just 2-3 kills.

Edited September 3, 2009 by CATS

[CATS]

Also, this:

Oh, and how is she winning physical durability? He has defense, she has avoid. I'd call it about equal.

It's the amounts by which they're winning in their respective leads. The Avo gap is much larger than the Def gap. I mean, Marisa is looking at about 47% hit from Ch 15's Steel Lance Wyverns, while Rennac is facing 74-75%. The Avo gap is large enough that Marisa's always taking less average damage even despite Rennac's Def lead (taking the example of the Wyverns again, Marisa takes 8.5 average damage from each round of combat, while Rennac takes ~11.5). I can list figures and values for each enemy type in Ch 15 if you want, but I don't really think that's necessary.

[Dat Nick]

CATS, you have an amazingly hard time getting things through your head, you know that?

Nobody ever said negative utility did not exist about the L'Arachel thing. We were talking about L'Arachel when she was actually being played, and yet you were just saying "oh she suck too much to be used" which is not only untrue, it defeats the whole point of talking about L'Arachel as a character to begin with. Will L'Arachel always be used? Fuck no. Do we consider how useful she is when she IS used? Yes. Furthermore, how the hell do you lump this together with "Oh we just bypass a character's period of suck because it obviously doesn't matter when we use a character from the minute they're recruited" I mean, really, how the hell does that make ANY sense? How do these two points POSSIBLY go hand in hand? Periods of suck should always be considered and always should be: It's why Ike's not Top tier, it's why Ross isn't Upper Mid tier, it's why Eliwood's not higher up, et cetera. I mean really. You don't just bypass Amelia/Ewan's periods of suck, but you DO assume that they are used if you're arguing them against anybody.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Joker

[Mekkah]

So uh, Marisa to the bottom on both routes? Below Knoll?

[Rewjeo]

Take a look at this:

If it helps, I did on analysis on Marisa's starting performance earlier in the topic.

Mind backing up Marisa's poor combat? I know for one thing that she has very reliable crit proc% post promotion while being within 4HKO range of most enemies. That puts her at Joshua-level pretty much, and he's ranked much higher than her.

4HKOing post promotion already doesn't sound good. Let's check out her start. I only have Eirika save states, so that'll have to do for now. Either way, she comes with a Shamshir, which gives her 15 MT and 41 crit, along with 13 AS.

She two rounds everything she doubles. It's always a 3-4HKO.

Myrmidons (which she can't double) are three rounded by her. They have 3-4 Luck as well.

Mercenaries (Still can't double) have to have 6/26-27 Def/HP for her to three round, otherwise it's a 4 round, and those are the weakest ones (Looking at it now, only 1/6 is that weak).

So, offensively, she's not that bad, especially since she has high crit and will level up within the chapter. But defensively?

Anything with 16+ MT will 2RKO her. That's 21 of the starting enemies on the map out of 39 enemies (not including the Priest), or ~54%. A lot of those are Soldiers, who pull 61-87% true hit on her, and then there are some Steel Sword Mercenaries who pull ~82% true on her while still in 2HKO range, and Myrmidons who are weaker but pull near 100% Hit on her. If she wields anything with more than 5 Wt (anything but Shamshir, Iron Sword, lolSlim Sword, and Wyrmslayer), her avoid is hurt even further.

And I didn't check, but I believe there are also Gargoyle reinforcements who will also pull WTA against her and probably be a serious threat. Actually, that's what she'd more likely be facing, since she won't be recruited immediately.

She has high experience gain, but she needs a lot to get out of her defensive hole. She has a respectable 170% avoid growth, but only 75% HP and 15% Def. And Shamshir doesn't last long either, so if she wants to retain power, she'll need heavier swords, which will make her lose avoid.

That reminds me, that was Eirika route Marisa. Ephraim route joins two maps later, so her position would be even worse.

Yeah, her start sucks, and later on? She's still bad.

And what about Knoll>L'arachel? I personally want to see him into lower mid, but I don't know if that's really reasonable...

[Colonel M]

Personally I'd say Knoll pulling utility > L'Archel leveling up, though I guess some may disagree with that.