Getting a Tier List on this bad boy

[Dat Nick]

So uh, Marisa to the bottom on both routes? Below Knoll?

please.

And lol, Knoll is never going into Low Mid. Summons are not going to save him.

[grandjackal]

Yeah, no way in hell I'd think summons alone would jump him THAT high.

EDIT: I just noticed this game has no enemy stats...

Yeeeaaahhhh, looking at chapter 9 Eirika route. These enemies are only weaker than FE6 enemies of the same chapter by a MARGIN. These guys are also using more accurate weapons...

Edited September 3, 2009 by Robo Ky

[CATS]

CATS, you have an amazingly hard time getting things through your head, you know that?

Indeed, do help me to understand. You are apparently agreeing that negative utility exists. So while sure, you can train L'Arachel, whatever stats and levels she might gain would be cancelled out by the negative utility she has to build up in order to gain them, correct? As compared to Knoll, who requires no training before he can promote, as was my original point.

I also still fail to understand the insistence on using a character in every chapter, as opposed to just using them in chaps where there's room for them to come in and help without necessarily kicking out a better unit, mainly 19 and 20 where you get huge numbers of deployment slots; L'Arachel can come in and heal/use Torch (for Ch 19), and Knoll can show up to heal/summon. This way they have no "period of suck" since you're only using them when they're not taking up a better unit's slot anyways, and they are still able to contribute to an entirely efficient run.

Similar to how with FE6 Marcus, you can use his utility to aid in an efficient run while still avoiding his "period of suck." You obviously should avoid his period of suck, and thus a tier list should assume that the player indeed does not field him for every chapter.

If you think I'm saying that we should never field these units and not bother discussing them at all, then you're mistaken. It's just that it seems to me like the definition of "using them" is to field them in every single chap, which is like fielding FE6 Marcus in every chap; forcing an unnecessary period of suck onto a utility unit.

Edited September 4, 2009 by CATS

[Dat Nick]

Marcus is a totally different story. His period of suck comes midgame when he's already been useful. With underlevelled characters, how the hell are you going to eliminate their period of suck if you DON'T level or field them?

[grandjackal]

Rather it should be measured exactly how bad you suck in said "period of suck" (PoS if you will). If even when you're bad you're still usable in some way (meaning you can fix the problem you have with just equipment), then the negative is very minor. You say we should just drop them, but this means you are acknowledging that said person is being dropped BECAUSE they suck for that point of time.

Sometimes, people have bad match-ups. Yes it's more efficient, but with your suggestion there might as well be a "used till no longer needed" tier. Fielding a unit just for Torch staff is a waste of a slot. If you're gonna be used, you'll be measured along with utility, not solely based on it. If that were the case, all healers would be top tier because it's a utility you need.

[Colonel M]

Perhaps it's time to shape up and actually get enemy stats. I apologize.

I shall work on them right now. That way I can argue things more clearly on the tier list as well. I dunno about others, but I don't consider myself THAT BAD at arguing the others (FE9 and 10 are still shaky, do understand that I haven't played them as much. 7 is a kinda).

[grandjackal]

As for other things I wish to mention.

-Supports in this game are bizarre. Until later in the game, chances are you will only be working with one supporter. Not many have their supports instantly available, and those that do have a problem with theirs (the character is sub-par, move difference ala SethxEirika and FranzxNatasha). They also don't build until a bit later. Like I'm at chapter 10 Eirika, Natasha and Joshua only have a C and they've practically been glued together. Halfway through the game, one of my earlygame characters glued to his supporter only at a C.

-Weapon balance may or may not be perfect, but the weapon triangle is pretty damn important. enemies are far more various in this game than any other. Just saying you have lolaxes is not an instant win to an argument.

-Enemies are nearly as tough as FE6 bastards, and they have far more accurate weapons to work with. I'd say con's pretty important due to this.

-Did anyone think to give Joshua the steel sword Seth has?

-Anyone notice the sheer amount of demonic power magic monsters tend to have? Jesus, they hurt...

[CATS]

Perhaps it's time to shape up and actually get enemy stats. I apologize.

I shall work on them right now. That way I can argue things more clearly on the tier list as well. I dunno about others, but I don't consider myself THAT BAD at arguing the others (FE9 and 10 are still shaky, do understand that I haven't played them as much. 7 is a kinda).

I'm working on Eir Route stats currently, so if you're just playing through for enemy stats, maybe take Eph.

Marcus is a totally different story. His period of suck comes midgame when he's already been useful. With underlevelled characters, how the hell are you going to eliminate their period of suck if you DON'T level or field them?

If these were pure fighters like Marisa, then yeah, you would have to level them a bunch to make them worth anything. That's why Marisa's bottom--she has nothing to offer unless you waste lots of resources on her. Her only option for doing anything is to just go through a period of suck; there's no way around it.

That's not the case with L'Arachel and Knoll, though. These units have non-combat utility, and can be perfectly useful without needing lots of levels and consuming lots of resources. Unlike Marisa, they have an option to contribute a bit without lowering overall efficiency, and thus, I don't see why it wouldn't be assumed that the player takes that option.

Rather it should be measured exactly how bad you suck in said "period of suck" (PoS if you will). If even when you're bad you're still usable in some way (meaning you can fix the problem you have with just equipment), then the negative is very minor. You say we should just drop them, but this means you are acknowledging that said person is being dropped BECAUSE they suck for that point of time.

No, I'm not saying we should just drop them (if by "them" you mean L'Arachel/Knoll) and never use them. I'm saying we should use them when they're able to contribute without taking away from overall efficiency.

Sometimes, people have bad match-ups. Yes it's more efficient, but with your suggestion there might as well be a "used till no longer needed" tier.

"Used till no longer needed?" These units are never "needed," very much the opposite as they are low/bottom tier, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Fielding a unit just for Torch staff is a waste of a slot. If you're gonna be used, you'll be measured along with utility, not solely based on it. If that were the case, all healers would be top tier because it's a utility you need.

Well, utility is mostly all that Knoll/L'Arachel have to offer (their combat is total garbage, and L'Arachel won't have it for a good while even if you field her all the time), so again, I don't know what you're trying to say.

-Anyone notice the sheer amount of demonic power magic monsters tend to have? Jesus, they hurt...

Yeah. lol, Shadowshot is ridiculous. Syrene can get OHKO'd by it, and most anyone that isn't a magic user gets 2HKO'd for sure.

[Dat Nick]

Her only option for doing anything is to just go through a period of suck; there's no way around it.

Um yes

Thank you for stating what everybody in this topic knew already. Although that's not the only reason Marisa's bottom [Oh I promoted her and guess what she still sucks]

That's not the case with L'Arachel and Knoll, though. These units have non-combat utility, and can be perfectly useful without needing lots of levels and consuming lots of resources. Unlike Marisa, they have an option to contribute a bit without lowering overall efficiency, and thus, I don't see why it wouldn't be assumed that the player takes that option.

So you're saying L'Arachel and Knoll don't eat up resources and don't contribute a ton of negative utility, but this makes it a problem to field them? The hell?

[CATS]

So you're saying L'Arachel and Knoll don't eat up resources and don't contribute a ton of negative utility, but this makes it a problem to field them? The hell?

I'm saying it depends on how you use them.

If you throw them down in chaps where a better unit could've been taking their spot, then yeah, they're creating negative utility. They're eating up a resource by taking a deployment slot which other units want.

If you use them in chaps where you have an excess of deployment slots, though (again this is mainly Ch 19 and 20, though possibly others depending on team size), then they're not creating any negative utility, since you've already got room to field all your good units and then some (with Knoll/L'Arachel being among the "and then some"). Here you have enough of this resource that they can use it without denying it to units who would be able to make better use of it. By using them only in these chaps, they're actually able to help your overall efficiency a bit, or in other words, create a little positive utility.

Once again using the parallel of FE6 Marcus; obviously he greatly aids efficiency in Ch 1-7, creating lots of positive utility. However, if you use him in every chap in the game, that means later you're using him in chaps where a better unit could've been used in his place, and thus, he's creating negative utility during that time period. Obviously the player wants the former without the latter, as would be the case here aswell.

Edited September 4, 2009 by CATS

[Dat Nick]

If you throw them down in chaps where a better unit could've been taking their spot, then yeah, they're creating negative utility.

If a better unit could be taking their spot, why the hell are we even bothering to use L'Arachel and Knoll in the first place?

[Jaybee]

Colonel said he was doing Eph. I'm still trying to determine when the bandits appear in C5, then I'll be on C5x.

[CATS]

If a better unit could be taking their spot, why the hell are we even bothering to use L'Arachel and Knoll in the first place?

Did you bother to read my whole post? Ofcourse you don't want to use them in chaps where there's not enough space for them. That was my point. I also said that there's chaps where you do have enough space to use them without kicking out a better unit, and thus ideally, you would use them only in those chaps.

[Colonel M]

Since we're talking about Marisa dropping... Knoll and her do a switch-up?

[CATS]

Sounds about right to me.

[Jaybee]

Anyone think Myrrh could go above Tana?

[Dat Nick]

Ofcourse you don't want to use them in chaps where there's not enough space for them.

Rarely doe a team go above 10 members, so I don't know what you're trying to tell me here.

I also said that there's chaps where you do have enough space to use them without kicking out a better unit,

And I said...

If a better unit could be taking their spot, why the hell are we even bothering to use L'Arachel and Knoll in the first place?

[grandjackal]

I think the point that's trying to be made CATS is "Why are you even bothering to measure them, if that's how you're gonna go about using them?".

Also, anyone think Vanessa>Franz?

Edited September 4, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Scarlet]

Also, anyone think Vanessa>Franz?

I don't think so. Vanessa's combat is pretty unimpressive without her supports, and she can't really make use of her flying utility if she stays with her support partners all the time, so she's basically just an inferior Franz with a weakness to bows then. Or she can fly off to use her flying utility, and miss out on liek 5 Atk, 5 Def and 25 Avd. If she even ever builds those supports in a reasonable amount of time.

Also, Franz has WT-control from the beginning while Vanessa can only get it after promotion, etc etc blah blah.

[Rewjeo]

Anyone think Myrrh could go above Tana?

Maybe... Tana isn't that great right away, and Myrrh's awesome right away and grows really fast, but she's limited at best to 50 rounds of combat. I'm not sure.

As for Knoll and Marisa, does anyone disagree with Knoll>L'Arachel, or at least >Rennac, and Marisa to bottom?

[CATS]

Rarely doe a team go above 10 members, so I don't know what you're trying to tell me here.

I'm telling you that in most chapters you can field better units in all your slots, even if it's just random prepromos like Innes.

And I said...

Huh? The whole point there was that in those chaps where you get tons of deployment slots, they're not taking a better unit's slot, because you have enough room to field like half of the entire cast.

I most certainly do not understand what you are talking about anymore. Do explain your logic in clearer terms.

[Jaybee]

tl;dr, I think Myrrh's lategame rapeage > Tana'a availability and mediocrity early on.

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

According to the current list, Cormag > Tana on Eirika Route. Anyone else find this odd?

[Colonel M]

According to the current list, Cormag > Tana on Eirika Route. Anyone else find this odd?

Not really. Cormag requires little work done to him (just an Elysian Whip) and he's pretty much good to go. Tana would need to excercise some huge wins before Cormag joins to actually gain some momentum. Guess one thing that hurts him is his support options get a lot smaller (Seth is probably taken at this point, Duessel is unlikely to be used but a possible, Artur and Natasha have other options, and Tana is his only other).

[CATS]

Indeed. Not sure about Eir Cormag vs Tana. Depends on how bad you think Tana is when she first joins, I suppose.

I'd like to restate Dozla > Ross.

Ross has to go through a huge period of suck in order to do anything. If you people say Marisa sucks too much to gain any Exp when she first joins, then Ross sure as hell isn't getting any. Marisa is 2-3HKO'd, but Ross is always 2HKO'd, and sometimes ORKO'd. And he's like, 4-5RKO'ing the enemies, compared to Marisa killing most things in just two rounds.