FE9 Tier List

[Vykan12]

I can see Volke > Mist. He steals like 80% of your total physic supply, and he gets partial credit for a lot of neat items (see B2BD's opening post in the debate tournament for easy reference). Mist obviously heals, but she can thank Volke for a lot of that effectiveness (if you argue she can do fine w/o physic staves, they still level her up much faster than mend).

[Dr. Tarrasque]

What the hell? Why so early? In fact, why do we even assume they get Seals?

What I haven't gotten ever since it was brought up is why we're assuming a Mage gets an early promotion. It kills their long term offense and there are only 2 before chapter 21. I for one don't think anyone should be assumed to get an early promotion except possibly Mist and/or Rhys. Even so, I wouldn't assume the Mages automatically come next. Jill, Makalov, Oscar, and Astrid can use one to get Axes faster and anyone can use one to remove some extra leveling.

They want it early and every1 in the entire game has opportunity costs but Soren/Ilyana/Rhys and Mist have the best benefit out of the Master Seals. I've been asked this many times... let me see if I can dig up some more reasoning on this.

As for why they want it early, it's like this...

With early promotion, they get a decent boost in combat as well as healing utility during the midgame where their offense will be quite decent at the time and don't have to worry about being left behind by Paladins and such just yet.

If promoted later, well their combat is weaker during the midgame and by the time they promote later, healing is less valuable and they're easily outrun by Paladins and such.

Getting that combat boost and healing when it's valuable sounds better than getting it later where you'll have trouble seeing combat and healing isn't worth much don't you think?

Edited July 10, 2009 by Sirius

[Bright]

To put in my $0.02, Volke's theiving utility is better than Mist's healing utility. We have more healers than theives and more vulenaries and stuff than Chest Keys.

We hardly need more chest keys. If you use the keys on the chests so that you get the better stuff, I think you miss a steel sword and some other assorted junk; none of it overrides the usefulness of a healer. Physics are a bigger deal, but then who has to use them?

There was an analysis I had seen; let me dig it up and I'll C/P it.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Bright

[Florete]

Fml. I don't want to go 1 vs. 5 again. I'll let it slide for now.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Alright, Volke once again above Mist.

[Colonel M]

Fml. I don't want to go 1 vs. 5 again. I'll let it slide for now.

It's not easy, I'll admit that. >_> Though twice it's happened to me, and hearing support shoved into my ear over and over just kind of made me snap a little.

By the by, I don't want to argue Mist again, I'll stick with someone else.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Colonel M

[Vykan12]

By the by, I don't want to argue Mist again, I'll stick with someone else.

That sounds eerily close to picking characters you like and trying to move them up in the list.

[Colonel M]

That sounds eerily close to picking characters you like and trying to move them up in the list.

No, not really. It's just the Mist one gave me (and I still have) a major headache attempting to argue it. It's not like I enjoyed raising Kashim in SD or trying to get someone like Noah and Treck a bit higher.

Acutally I could try arguing Taur > Ranulf, but I'll do it later. Not right now.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

That sounds eerily close to picking characters you like and trying to move them up in the list.

If anyone's guilty of it, it ain't colonel. Not here anyways.

So...Anyone think either Muarim has a case against Mist, or if Neph has a case against Muarim?

[dondon151]

OK I had work so I avoided this debacle.

Or I could give provoke to a unit who doesn't have a shitty enemy phase at >Half health.

Why would that unit want Provoke? It's utterly pointless to give your top frontline units Provoke unless you plan on playing risks every single turn with units that have shitty durability.

[grandjackal]

OK I had work so I avoided this debacle.

Why would that unit want Provoke? It's utterly pointless to give your top frontline units Provoke unless you plan on playing risks every single turn with units that have shitty durability.

So it's better on a unit who's never gonna be on the front lines, and that there are plenty of others with better durability due to avoid, decent concretely and supports anyways? Fine, by that argument, Provoke is better on Brom and Gat. Now we gotta take something from people who are quite a bit better than Taur just to beat Largo? By that case, we can give him a skill in return. Largo's always being bitched about having poor durability, let's give him resolve. 30 AS at base doubles everything he could dream of, gives him 72 avoid at base before supports factored in (if any, since Largo's case is rather poor), then you factor in 5 more crit from more skill and 10 more strength with the fact he can actually double things. Instant Boyd level.

However, my point still stands. Largo does not need skills, and isn't dependent on one to be of actual use anyways.

[Colonel M]

It's alright: at least I got chicken.

Tauroneo vs. Ranulf involves a slight amount of favoritism. On Tauroneo's side, it's pondering about Braves. On Ranulf's side, its about the DemiBand.

So allow me to say that I'm going to give Taur 1 Level. With the Knight Ward, this improves his Spd growth to 60%. With that the only stat that doesn't break over 50% growth is Luck and Res: 15% and 40% respectively. This is just to give you an idea that Taur here has a very good chance of gaining +1 in many of his stats, albiet not all of them are possible, but with the BEXP finishing the level off in Ranulf's chapter, it should focus on +1 Spd in particular. With Resolve, Tauroneo's Spd jumps to 21 if he obtains the +1 in Spd, if not it's 19. Ranulf without the Laguz Band has 20 Spd and with the Band it drops to 19 Spd. With Resolve taken into account, Tauroneo will either beat or tie AS-wise at worst. Without it, he has the Brave Weapons and obviously loses in AS to Uncle Ranulf.

Now there's other ways to mitigate his AS issue: Brave weapons. There's two of them in particular. Then there's class-effective weapons which can easily work well with their doubled Mt, though it inferior to forged Silver weapons. I won't go very far into those and simply focus on getting a forged Javelin with max Mt and +9 Crit, assuming Wrath is allowed.

Ranulf has 30 Atk with the Laguz Band and 33 Atk without. Taur with Brave Lance / Sword has 33 / 31 Atk, so they're pretty comparable offensively. Forged Javelin has 33 Atk +9 extra Crit, +0 if not deemed necessary. Silver Sword has 35 Atk and Silver Lance / Blade has 37. This takes into account with 22 Atk, raise it by 1 if rounded and under Resolve add +11-12 Atk.

So here's the question: can Tauroneo get into Resolve range, stay safe under the condition, etc?

Recall that Tauroneo has 48.6 HP / 22.6 Def. This means that either of these will round up (or both, damn his growths are decent). Anyway, so let's assume that he has 23 Def (which kind of works against Taur) and see how many hits it takes to put him toward Resolve range. Let's say... this is hard. 20 Atk and 23 Atk with the Blizzard, the latter being 3-10 range. These are Mages and the Sage on C23 BTW. It appears that putting him into such range is just pretty damn difficult. He can try at least: spam the 5 turns getting hit by the Blizzard tome: 3 hits should put him toward Resolve range. As for Hit rates, it's about 56% chance of being hit by the Blizzard tome. Yeah, this might be difficult to argue Resolve-wise.

Outside of that, they're pretty much comparable. With Brave weapons they just about match in Atk, usually Taur will have the advantage due to Ranulf wanting the DemiBand. Without it, he has gauge issues to worry about.

...It might be worth trying to compare these two, but I think Taur might have an edge due to the lack of gauge in general and having ways to double whether it's on his own (he doubles the Wyvern Riders and the Mages, but that's about it) or has the Brave weapons (2 different ones) to compensate for it. Resolve requires some hefty amount of damage needed, and let's say if you aren't a Mage or a promoted unit with a lot of Atk it's pretty hard to get there (24-25 damage needs to be done).

[dondon151]

Fine, by that argument, Provoke is better on Brom and Gat. Now we gotta take something from people who are quite a bit better than Taur just to beat Largo?

Brom and Gatrie don't have Resolve.

By that case, we can give him a skill in return. Largo's always being bitched about having poor durability, let's give him resolve. 30 AS at base doubles everything he could dream of, gives him 72 avoid at base before supports factored in (if any, since Largo's case is rather poor), then you factor in 5 more crit from more skill and 10 more strength with the fact he can actually double things. Instant Boyd level.

Wow OK thanks for pretending that Resolve and Provoke have equivalent value you know what let's give Tauroneo Adept too since that's definitely not a skill in high demand that significantly improves a character's performance

However, my point still stands. Largo does not need skills, and isn't dependent on one to be of actual use anyways.

Largo wished that Pavise existed in this game, but sadly it does not. Largo wants anything that lets him not take damage, because being 3-5RKO'd is not good in lategame.

[-Cynthia-]

Largo wished that Pavise existed in this game, but sadly it does not. Largo wants anything that lets him not take damage, because being 3-5RKO'd is not good in lategame.

Guard

Also Colonel M, your argument misses a big part of Ranulf vs. Taur, Mov. +3 is pretty big.

[Colonel M]

True, I guess I did forget to take Movement into account. If you include the range weapon the Mov lead drops to 2, but yeah I'd say the two things that are holding this back is the gauge or, possibly, the slight cut in durability. Granted it's not to the point where I'm going to point fingers and say that Ranulf's durability is bad, but the former would definitely affect how much he's using his Movement.

With the DemiBand in play though, I guess the Movement would be something to consider, though Taur's massive durability does mitigate this slightly. Sorry about forgetting Mov though: sometimes I slip a bit too much into FEDS mode.

Also, there is that weakness to Fire magic, but I'm not going that far because I won't deny the Mov lead.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Colonel M

[dondon151]

Guard

Guard doesn't keep Largo from taking damage on enemy phase.

[grandjackal]

Oh, 3-5RKOd is bad?

41 hp, 28 atk, 18 AS, 98 hit, 43 avo, 19 def, 13 res, 6 crit, 7 cev

1x Paladin lv 16 (brave sword)

41 hp, 28 atk, 21 AS, 112 hit, 51 avo, 20 def, 14 res, 7 crit, 9 cev

1x Paladin lv 16 (brave axe)

42 hp, 31 atk, 21 AS, 103 hit, 50 avo, 20 def, 13 res, 7 crit, 8 cev

1x Cat lv 13 (claw)

46 hp, 29 atk, 21 AS, 129 hit, 45 avo, 18 def, 9 res, 9 crit, 3 cev

3x Cat lv 15 (claw)

46 hp, 30 atk, 21 AS, 132 hit, 46 avo, 21 def, 10 res, 9 crit, 4 cev

1x Warrior lv 15 (silver axe)

55 hp, 39 atk, 18 AS, 108 hit, 43 avo, 15 def, 9 res, 7 crit, 8 cev

These are basic enemies? What do they have in common?

Max level, Taur has 25 Str, and his strongest weapon is a silver lance that is of 15 MT. Max level under resolve has 21 AS.

Yup. Taur's pulling off 3RKOs. With a speed wing, it's 2RKO under Resolve.

Largo with just 5 levels has 1 less Str, but 22 AS at base and a silver axe has 2 more mt. This is just 5 levels, he could have a bit more. He 2RKOs everything as is. Suppose 9 levels in 5 chapters is rediculous, but would 7 be harsh? With that same speedwing, he 1RKOs all these things save the warrior. Even more, Largo's still able to gain levels on this map, while Taur's all capped out, and has a crit rate to consider.

2x General lv 16 (silver lance)

46 hp, 36 atk, 11 AS, 116 hit, 29 avo, 26 def, 15 res, 8 crit, 7 cev

Hoark hoark. Taur needs resolve to double a fucking general. 4RKO. Largo however with his 1 extra might and WTA giving him another power point AND doubling, is a 2RKO. The guy's also running about 30 displayed hit as well on a level 14 Largo, since you were so butthurt about Largo's durability, and the guys up there save the cats are pulling similar hit.

1x Wyvern Lord lv 17 (heavy spear, short spear)

50 hp, 31 atk (39 eff), 16 AS, 125 hit, 39 avo, 25 def, 7 res, 9 crit, 7 cev

Uh-oh, someone brought an armorslayer weapon to the party! Even worse without resolve, Taur 4RKOs this guy while Largo 2RKOs.

1x Halberdier lv 13 (short spear)

45 hp, 27 atk, 16 AS, 112 hit, 38 avo, 17 def, 9 res, 9 crit, 6 cev

2x Halberdier lv 15-16 (short spear)

44 hp, 28 atk, 19 AS, 116 hit, 44 avo, 17 def, 10 res, 10 crit, 6 cev

With ranged weapons, Taur 3RKOs with a spear, while Largo 2RKOs with a hand axe. However with silver, Taur 2RKOs while Largo just smokes them in one round, as he can double both.

1x Dragon lv 15 (breath)

59 hp, 46 atk, 19 AS, 136 hit, 42 avo, 31 def, 26 res, 10 crit, 4 cev

2x Dragon lv 17 (breath)

59 hp, 48 atk, 21 AS, 143 hit, 47 avo, 33 def, 28 res, 12 crit, 5 cev

Both double Taur unresolved, and don't kick him into resolve health. However after a double, they leave him with slivers. They 2RKO both, but at least Largo has almost half his health left. Largo also is able to double the weaker one. 3RKO, while Taur..can't ever compare.

Largo might not be the most durable dude on earth on this map, but at least he's not an offensive failure. Even with a crit, Taur might fail to kill some enemies that should be easy enough to kill as is. Namely the wyvern lord and the goddamn general.

Edited July 10, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[-Cynthia-]

Not that I necessarily disagree with Largo>Taur, but not giving Taur a forge seems to be sandbagging.

[Colonel M]

Not that I necessarily disagree with Largo>Taur, but not giving Taur a forge seems to be sandbagging.

Admittidely Taur would rather use Brave weapons when not under Resolve range. For when he's in it, yes he would want a forge Silver (if Largo is getting it) and a forge Javelin gives him some ranged fun.

Dunno if it's worth mentioning, but Taur can reach 17 Spd with the Knight Ward (16.6).

Edited July 10, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

Oh, so Taur now needs a forge to still lose to Largo who's using normal fucking weapons?

As for the KW thing there? Oooohhh, he can double the general now, does he want a fucking medal for needing that thing to do something every-goddamn-body else should be doing at this point?

Edited July 10, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[dondon151]

I'm going to question that Largo's durability is bad, then proceed to never acknowledge it again and instead divert attention to the fact that Largo beats Tauroneo's offense when I deny the latter any sort of resources, such as the Knight Ward, brave weapons, or forges, nor am I going to ever allow Tauroneo to fall under Resolve HP because it works better for me that way.

Offense is more fixable than defense.

Edited July 10, 2009 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

Having 15 avoid lead, needing less experience (Largo getting to reasonable level is less experience than Taur going from his base to max), an offense lead, and access to those same weapons with a 16 crit lead, and capable of actually one rounding some things on the map is just not a lead to you? Even considering he gets to Resolve HP, he can't double much regardless, and 2RKOs just like Largo's been doing the whole goddamn time.

As for KW? Can't have your cake and eat it. Just makes it even harder for Taur to get to the "Oh hey, THERE'S my mini-Largo offense!". Durability WOULD be a problem, if you were 2RKOd and can't dodge, but Largo CAN dodge and Largo ISN'T 2RKOd except by dragons who 2RKO damn well everyone.

Don't act like Taur is suddenly always at Resolve HP and entitled to weapons he's not the sole user of, and forges, all just to be similar to Largo. With this poor offense, Taur is taking valuable enemy phase from someone more capable (like Largo) just to get the crap kicked out of him, just to end up similar to Largo, while Largo's already Largo and thus good to go from the get go. Taur is a Largo with less move in Resolve half the time of his existence. What more do you people want?

Edited July 10, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[dondon151]

Having 15 avoid lead, needing less experience (Largo getting to reasonable level is less experience than Taur going from his base to max), an offense lead, and access to those same weapons with a 16 crit lead, and capable of actually one rounding some things on the map is just not a lead to you?

Tauroneo has more maps and doesn't need to be at max level (dunno where this assumption came from).

As for KW? Can't have your cake and eat it. Just makes it even harder for Taur to get to the "Oh hey, THERE'S my mini-Largo offense!". Durability WOULD be a problem, if you were 2RKOd and can't dodge, but Largo CAN dodge and Largo ISN'T 2RKOd except by dragons who 2RKO damn well everyone.

Huh you mean Tauroneo can't have the KW and level up with it at a point in the game where the only units that need the KW are Brom, Gatrie, and maybe Devdan?

3-5RKO is bad at this point in the game. Against higher end attacks, Largo's durability resembles Mia's on her joining chapter.

Don't act like Taur is suddenly always at Resolve HP and entitled to weapons he's not the sole user of, and forges, all just to be similar to Largo. With this poor offense, Taur is taking valuable enemy phase from someone more capable (like Largo) just to get the crap kicked out of him, just to end up similar to Largo, while Largo's already Largo and thus good to go from the get go. Taur is a Largo with less move in Resolve half the time of his existence. What more do you people want?

Don't act like Tauroneo is never at Resolve HP and never gets weapons that he can make good use of. Your accusations are baseless because I've never once said that Tauroneo is always at Resolve HP, nor have I ever said that Tauroneo will always be using a Brave Sword, Brave Lance, forged Silver Lance, or forged Javelin. I wonder why you're so keen on denying resources to units?

[grandjackal]

Tauroneo has more maps and doesn't need to be at max level (dunno where this assumption came from).

Ohhh, 4 chapters of being half-Largo. Impressive. Then Largo joins and is Largo all the time, and Largo's around for 5 chapters, as opposed to the 4 beforehand for Taur. Half Largo means he is of 2 chapter's worth, and of which Largo is beating him from there on. 5>4>2

Why? Well, I'd HOPE he's not at base when Largo shows up...Either way, having 7-3 less AS than base level Largo no matter what certainly helps kill what use he is before resolve kicks in. All this time to do this, he needs to take the place of someone better to take enemy phase. Largo does not have to deal with this shit as he doesn't suck prior to resolve kicking in.

Huh you mean Tauroneo can't have the KW and level up with it at a point in the game where the only units that need the KW are Brom, Gatrie, and maybe Devdan?

You know what? You're right. Taur can have it over those 3, because we know Largo has competition for his basic silver weapons...*rolls eyes*

You do realize what you just said, right? Besides, others would like to put the +2 def and resistance to that use, as all it does for Taur is make his offense suck for longer. He's the last person who wants to hold onto it.

3-5RKO is bad at this point in the game. Against higher end attacks, Largo's durability resembles Mia's on her joining chapter.

His dodge is certainly better off, considering Mia wasn't having a consistent 30-40 hit on her at the time. Why are you acting like Largo's a brick who can't dodge?

Speaking of Mia at her jointime, she was generally 3-4RKOing at her join time. Sounds like a similar problem a silver clad bastard's having...

Don't act like Tauroneo is never at Resolve HP and never gets weapons that he can make good use of. Your accusations are baseless because I've never once said that Tauroneo is always at Resolve HP, nor have I ever said that Tauroneo will always be using a Brave Sword, Brave Lance, forged Silver Lance, or forged Javelin. I wonder why you're so keen on denying resources to units?

Why should I when Largo doesn't have to give a shit about being at resolve HP? The fact I have to go out and get a low move unit's ass kicked and have to put up with his shitty offense when someone less sucking in combat could be doing it is NOT a good thing. Largo doesn't have to, he can just go out and kick ass from the get go.

Why? What, I can't give Largo a forged hand axe, a brave axe (Brom and Gatling cannon with perhaps Devdan would like the brave lance, while Haar's his only competition for the brave axe, Largo arguably putting it to better use due to giving him more crit opportunity). Hey, how about a killer axe? 55 displayed crit ain't bad. I could forge a silver axe, but why would I? I could just give him a normal silver axe and nothing would change. As for a forged silver or the brave lance? Best you changed was you made the combat against the general and wyvern lord from 4RKO to 3RKO, while everything else has remained unchanged.

You can't just say

"Taur gets a forge and braves! Others would want the limited forges we have left, but he gets one!" Largo doesn't need them. "Well Taur needs them, and is still generally inferior, he wins!" ...

[Zkirsche]

Now, I don't particularly care for Largo > Taur.

But I am wanting Largo into lower mid, his offence is very good and his availability is comparable to Geoffrey's, who's an entire tier ahead of him. His durability isn't a massive issue either with decent avo and good HP, all he's lacking is res and def.

Not that I necessarily disagree with Largo>Taur, but not giving Taur a forge seems to be sandbagging.

He didn't give Largo a forge, which may help his offence a lot.